How do you discern worldy music?

[GreenEyedLady]

Hey.
I thought I should bring up this topic since music can so greatly effect our spirits and our lives.
What are your thoughts about Christan rock music? Is it Godly?
How can you tell if music is not godly?
What about worldy music that does not honor God? Is it somthing you listen to or you shy away from?
GEL

[theseed]

You have to do the plant test.


Once I read a book
And this is what it said
If your music has a beat
Then you're gonna wind up dead
It doesn't really matter if it's Christian or not
If it's syncopated rhythm then your soul is gonna rot
And this book was called "Ha! Your Gonna Burn"
And in the second chapter I went on to learn


Take two houseplants
And put them to the test
Set them both in front of speakers
And let the music do the rest
The first one you play Mozart
Or something lovely like that
The second one you play that Petra Or that MegaDeth.
Doesn't really matter what kind of rock it is.


http://www.musicrefuge.com/index.php?go=resources&type=lyrics&resource_id=1388


:D :P :D

[GreenEyedLady]

So what are you saying here?
Do you think that any music is ok?

[theseed]

No, but the song is hillarious.

I would follow the formula in Phil. 4, if it has any virtue or praise, then think upon it.

[rhemarob]

It's all in the words, the music style makes no difference at all.

Some folks claim that even if you have words that glorify God in a rock song it still can't be Christian music because of the musical style or beat.

But look at it backwards , if that were true then I could take the music from your favorite hymn and put blasphemous words to it and it would still be allright because it still has the same music and beat to it right, all I did was change the words not the music so it has to be good right?

You can see how ridiculous that sounds, so if the words are glorifying God then its Christian music, no matter what the style.

As far as worldy music goes , I stay away from it, even if it doesn't have a blatantly negative message, what good is it doing you?
With so many choices that glorify the Lord why mess with the worlds junk?

[ZeroTX]

You have to do the plant test.


http://www.musicrefuge.com/index.php?go=resources&type=lyrics&resource_id=1388


:D :P :D
That's one hot steaming load of manure.

Use your judgement on music. If anyone purports to tell you what is or isn't Godly, that person is being self-righteous.

-Michael

[Joshua Howard]

I would have you know that there is but one truth... and we must draw the line when it comes to music. Rock music for reason of it's style is simply NOT cunducive to a closer walk with God. I won't go into all the reasons behind my standard, but when it comes to music, I basically consider Classical pieces and Traditional Hymns to be optimal. Anything that sounds contemporary I throw out the window. There's too much watering down of standards in the Church today... Fundamentalists these days, I am afraid, are not very fundamental after all...

[Andyman_1970]

With all due respect:

Rock music for reason of it's style is simply NOT cunducive to a closer walk with God.

Chapter and verse please?

I basically consider Classical pieces and Traditional Hymns to be optimal. Anything that sounds contemporary I throw out the window. There's too much watering down of standards in the Church today... Fundamentalists these days, I am afraid, are not very fundamental after all...

What personal pronoun keeps coming up in your post? Maybe "I". Anyway, newflash, there is no such thing as Christian music only Christian lyrics. There are no musical notes in the Scriptures. To say that "God only endorses" "traditional" sounding music with Christian lyrics is putting God in a box (IMO).

There is a HUGE difference between what is spiritually "acceptable" and personal preference (which is what you assert), the two should never be mixed up.

[TwinCrier]

Just as we can judge people by their fruits, we can judge music the same way. Christian musicians who cheat on their spouses, get hooked on drugs, etc, are showing us their spiritual fruits, the same spirit with which they write their songs.
You know the old sayings...
You can't judge a book by it's cover.
If it walks like a duck and quacks like a duck....

[Andyman_1970]

Just as we can judge people by their fruits, we can judge music the same way.

We can (judge people by their taste or prefered style of music)? Please cite a chapter and verse please. In the fruits of the spirit there is no mention about music or musical preference (which is what this is preference, not a concrete "Law" of God). We need to be VERY careful about judging people by our preferences rather than the Scriptures. What did Samuel say? "Man looks at the outside, but God looks at the heart".

Christian musicians who cheat on their spouses, get hooked on drugs, etc, are showing us their spiritual fruits, the same spirit with which they write their songs.

Please give me some examples of these artist and the bands they are in.

[TwinCrier]

We can (judge people by their taste or prefered style of music)? Please cite a chapter and verse please. In the fruits of the spirit there is no mention about music or musical preference (which is what this is preference, not a concrete "Law" of God). We need to be VERY careful about judging people by our preferences rather than the Scriptures. What did Samuel say? "Man looks at the outside, but God looks at the heart".



Please give me some examples of these artist and the bands they are in."We can (judge people by their taste or prefered style of music)?" is your words not mine. We judge PEOPLE by their fruits, meaning the evidence of their spiritual character and relationship to God.

If you have not heard about the exploits of certain christian musicans I certainly am not going to spread gossip. One of the most popular christian bands has a reputation for spouting profanity. I'd suggest you do an internet search or investigate your favorite contempory artists.

The devotion that some have to their christian rock stars seems idoltrous to me.

[P_G]

Oh sure it's the melody
Never mind the message

Never mind that it might attract younger people
who would would be wooed by the world and sin.

No way the piercings, the tatoos, the long hair just
think of the scandal. They might be drug addicts or alcoholics
maybe even prostitutes or wanton women! How absolutely scandalous!

Lets all sing

On a hill far away
Sat an old Chevrolet
Rotting and rusting it was


Tell you what
If this music draws people not nice enough for your church
it it's just you know too nuts
Please send them to mine I have a seat for them.


By the way secular music probably has no real good place in
your life. But if the L-rd be lifted up he will draw all men to him.


Blessings

Pastor George :wave:
(He's a little bit Rock and Roll!)

[jenptcfan]

I think we have to be careful when we say one particular style of Christian music is more Godly than another. Like someone else said, there's no such thing as christian music, just christian words that go along with certain music.

There's a place for hymns and there's a place for contemporary praise songs. I have a love for both, but there are some people who will understand one kind more than the other. If someone's singing a hymn that's written in old English, and doesn't understand the words they're singing--are they really praising God with it? Would they be praising God more if they were singing a more contemporary praise song that was written in language like they use on a daily basis...something they understand and mean from their heart? I don't know. But I do believe that when we sing praises to God from our heart, he is blessed by it. I don't think he cares so much what the beat behind the words sounds like--He's listening to the beat of our hearts.

*as a separate aside, I do listen to some secular music, but if I hear something that's spouting profanity or something I feel convicted about, I'll switch it off.

[kayanne]

Oh boy, is this a subject I feel passionately about! Our church actually went through a SPLIT over this subject! We got a new music director several years ago, and he would not allow us to even sing pieces from the hymnal if they were written after 1960! I was not allowed to play a piano prelude if it was music from a song recorded by Twila Paris, Steve Green, Michael W Smith, etc. He was strictly hymns and classical. He said the problem with using ANY contemp Christian music (CCM) is that, even if, say, Twila Paris is a very godly woman (I have no idea if she is), that if people come into our church, hear a Twila Paris song, they will assume that we are A-OK with ALL CCM, and they probably know about Amy Grant's divorce and other CCMusicians who have been found to sin, and they'll think we condone that, and.........HOGWASH!!
I asked him about the very sinful lives of some of the great classical composers--they most certainly were not all saintly! He said, well, because they lived so long ago no one really associates their music with their sin anymore, so classical music in church is ok. :scratch: :scratch: :scratch:
It got really bad at that church. I couldn't play any piano piece without him approving it, no one could sing a solo that was not approved, he even told me once that he didn't like to see anyone's feet tapping during hymn singing because that showed him they were focusing on the beat. :eek: (Hey, I'm a musician and my feet don't have the power to stay still when music is playing!!)
Anyway, it was just all SO overboard, we actually left the church after it kept getting more extreme. It was an ugly mess.
Please folks, don't fall into that illogical mindset. God judges the hearts and motives. CCMusicians don't have to be perfect humans to serve the Lord; yes they should be the best witness they can. But look at OT examples of David, Solomon, Abraham, on and on....we could certainly point fingers at some of the sins they committed! But God used them in a HUGE way! God can use anyone and any type of music.

[Andyman_1970]

"We can (judge people by their taste or prefered style of music)?" is your words not mine. We judge PEOPLE by their fruits, meaning the evidence of their spiritual character and relationship to God.

I agree, I jumped to a conclusion there. I was wrong, I would hope you can forgive me for that.

If you have not heard about the exploits of certain christian musicans I certainly am not going to spread gossip. One of the most popular christian bands has a reputation for spouting profanity. I'd suggest you do an internet search or investigate your favorite contempory artists.

I would assume (feel free to correct me if I'm wrong) you are referring to the band "Creed"? If in fact this is the band you are referring to, they are not and never have claimed to be a "Christian" band. Their lead singer has some beleifs (or did have, I stopped listening to them about 2.5 years ago) and they come out in his music.

So to call "Creed" a Christian band is uninformed at best.

So again I ask the question (since Creed isn't and Christian band): are there any Christain bands/musicians that are hooked on drugs etc? The tone of your post made it sound like (I may be wrong) that this was an epidemic among Christian rock.

The devotion that some have to their christian rock stars seems idoltrous to me.

Just as it seems the devotion some have to particular pastors/preachers seem to be idolotrous.

[eldermike]

But God used them in a HUGE way! God can use anyone and any type of music.
Amen

I know a person that was pushed over the edge by the harsh words in a single rap song. This person cried out to God because the brutality in this song was a wake up call. God can do His will without any help from us. God created the universe with a word, He is not waiting for us to make the right song selections. We should join Him where He is working. But, where He is working hasn't been in 3/4 time for over 50 years, so don't bring a hymnal.

[bleechers]

Me being weird again:

The hymns have better doctrine (on average) than most CCM.
Many CCMers are immature in the faith.

By the way, I play and write CCM.

With that being said, you cannot blame the style. I have a few articles on my site about this. I have studied this issue at length and have been on both sides. The anti-CCM arguments are very inconsistent and often contradictory. I'm sorry, but the only remotely usable scriptural argument is the fruit argument, but that is an individual assessment, not a "music style" assessment.

To wit, I think that certain CCMers are blasphemous, but I don't blame the music and conclude that all CCM is blasphemous. It is an individual call.

Where we do need to be careful in CCM, is letting young Christians with poor discernment promote whatever willy-nilly. As noted, there is some CCM that is downright blasphemous and other stuff that is downright childish... but I blame the artists, not the music.

After all, there are many false religions with heretical hymns based on the works of the "masters". I don't blame the music for the heresy, nor do I accept the hymns solely because they use classical music.

Blaming the music is a cop-out. We should all discern everything we listen to with our hearts open before God and our eyes opened to the scriptures "whether these things [being said] are so." Learn to discern. We are all responsible for doing that.

:) smiles all around :)

If you have not heard about the exploits of certain christian musicans

Key word here: "certain". Certain people is in no way equal to "all" people. Certain "masters" were wicked, depraved heretics. That in no way condemns classical music any more than Amy Grant's antics condemn Keith Green...

[Andyman_1970]

Great post!


To wit, I think that certain CCMers are blasphemous, but I don't blame the music and conclude that all CCM is blasphemous. It is an individual call.

...but I blame the artists, not the music.

I agree 100% with your assesment of blaming the artist and not the "style".

I am curious though: who are these blasphemous artist's? I have been listening to Christian rock for 4+ years and have yet to come across any lyrics that are in fact blasphemous (that doesn't mean there not out there).

Blaming the music is a cop-out. We should all discern everything we listen to with our hearts open before God and our eyes opened to the scriptures "whether these things [being said] are so." Learn to discern. We are all responsible for doing that.

I totally agree 100%.

[eldermike]

Bleechers, I agree with what you said. From a doctrinal prespective you can't beat songs like "Lord I did not choose you". The old hymns are one of the best sources of doctrinal purity. However; when I go to a church that sings them there is a serious lack of youth in the place. It's time to repackage those old songs with some new music.

[bleechers]

However; when I go to a church that sings them there is a serious lack of youth in the place. It's time to repackage those old songs with some new music.

Absolutely. Again, the content of those old hymns is so great, they need to be repackaged for today's youth! See: "Son of God 'twas Love That Made Thee by Redeemed ;) I think my post is consistent with doing this... even if I'm not as good a bassplayer as some others... :sigh:

I am curious though: who are these blasphemous artist's?

Are you insane? :) I got into trouble by just quoting from a certain catechism to people who claim to hold to that (unnamed) catechism! You think I'm gonna name a CCMer in here and call him blasphemous!? [shudder]

I would only do so (and make my case) if I were given immunity against being sanctioned for "attacking" him/her/them/it... :holy:

So, just to be safe, you should all get a Band from Plymouth CD and listen to it often... I can vouch for the material. ^_^

[eldermike]

even if I'm not as good a bassplayer as some others... :sigh:

You really are taking this hard. Man, I am sorry;)

[GreenEyedLady]

HMmmmmmmmm.
You all have alot of diverse opinions.
The only problem I have is with Christian Rock.....Sorrry Andy, I cannot agree with you.
My problem is with the beat. I think that the Christian Rock is just a conterfiet for Rock.
Can the beat of the music make someone glorify their body and not God?
I think so. There is nothing good about rock music. I have been to many concerts as a youngen. Iron Maiden, Metallica(twice), Alice Cooper, Ted Nugent etc. There was no light of God in any of these concerts. All of the people were "worshipping" the groups or just sitting around gettin high or slam dancing, head banging. For what? Why did I bang my head so hard that I was stiff necked for 2 weeks? WHY did I do that? Because the of the music and the beat. And because I was a moron!:|
I think the beat has so much to do with it. Many of these songs that I heard, I did not know the words, I just danced to the beat, and I was good. I was not glorifying God, I was glorifying the music and the way i could move my body to the beat.
I know that all of you will not agree with me and I would not expect that.
Andy, before you type that,:kiss: I have no scriptures to give you. This is just somthing that the Holy Spirit convicted me of. So I listened to Him.
It might be differant for everyone. I think everyone is effected by music differantly. I just so happen to have bad experiences with ANY kind of rock music whether its so called "chrisian" or not.
Thanks for your responses!
GEL

[jenptcfan]

For those who believe that Christian rock music is wrong...so if someone took the words to a favorite hymn and upped the tempo...maybe added some drums in the background...all of a sudden that song wouldn't be a Christian song anymore?

Or would it still be a Christian song if someone upped the tempo as long as there was only piano and organ music in the background? Where do we draw the line?

[eldermike]

Or would it still be a Christian song if someone upped the tempo as long as there was only piano and organ music in the background? Where do we draw the line?
My band has an arrangement of higher ground that would make any rocker happy. We also do several other hymns in rock style.

[P_G]

My band has an arrangement of higher ground that would make any rocker happy. We also do several other hymns in rock style.
Hehehehe
Mike I am looking at your age and saying "OK George it's ok to have bought an electric guitar on Saturday" Which I did.

Miss Bonnie was ok with that but gave me that sort of "wife look" when I told her I was quitting my day job to be a rock and roll star. :)

Hey just currious to the objectors are there any other kinds of music that you find
inappropriate? I have a net cast where we do a fair amount of music and I am at best a bit eclectic.

Blessings

Pastor George :wave:

[eldermike]

Mike I am looking at your age and saying "OK George it's ok to have bought an electric guitar on Saturday" Which I did.

Go for it! I have been playing all my life, there is nothing that will keep you young longer than music.

[theseed]

I would have you know that there is but one truth... and we must draw the line when it comes to music. Rock music for reason of it's style is simply NOT cunducive to a closer walk with God. I won't go into all the reasons behind my standard, but when it comes to music, I basically consider Classical pieces and Traditional Hymns to be optimal. Anything that sounds contemporary I throw out the window. There's too much watering down of standards in the Church today... Fundamentalists these days, I am afraid, are not very fundamental after all...
That's funny because many people have gotten closer to God with rock music. Before, they were told lies that they could not honor God with such music. And so, they refused to attend church or even stopped walking with God.

How many people have you lead to Christ with your music?

[theseed]

That's one hot steaming load of manure.

Use your judgement on music. If anyone purports to tell you what is or isn't Godly, that person is being self-righteous.

-Michael
You know I'm joking right?

[theseed]

Here is a band that has made a ministry of thier music, and have lead people to Christ, people that would not have come otherwise--because they believed that God did not like thier style of music. But be careful, this is not just rock--but hardcore.

www.disciplerocks.com (http://www.disciplerocks.com)

[TwinCrier]

I agree, I jumped to a conclusion there. I was wrong, I would hope you can forgive me for that.
Of course, that what Christiand do best.



I would assume (feel free to correct me if I'm wrong) you are referring to the band "Creed"? If in fact this is the band you are referring to, they are not and never have claimed to be a "Christian" band. Their lead singer has some beleifs (or did have, I stopped listening to them about 2.5 years ago) and they come out in his music.

So to call "Creed" a Christian band is uninformed at best.
I was thinking of the group POD, but I'm not sure if they are 'openly christian' or not.

So again I ask the question (since Creed isn't and Christian band): are there any Christain bands/musicians that are hooked on drugs etc? The tone of your post made it sound like (I may be wrong) that this was an epidemic among Christian rock.

It seems to be doesn't it.

Just as it seems the devotion some have to particular pastors/preachers seem to be idolotrous. Amen to that. *

[TwinCrier]

For those who believe that Christian rock music is wrong...so if someone took the words to a favorite hymn and upped the tempo...maybe added some drums in the background...all of a sudden that song wouldn't be a Christian song anymore?

Or would it still be a Christian song if someone upped the tempo as long as there was only piano and organ music in the background? Where do we draw the line?Of course the song would still be my favorite, just not their rock and roll screamin like a banchee having a seizure version of it.

[Blazin4Christ]

personally I don't listen to ANY secular music, exept for things like Happy Birthday ^_^, but to find out what Christian music is okay I usually go to a certain site, PM me to find out, but I don't listen to anyform of rock, I personally think rock is worldly and it should not be mixed with sacred Christian lyrics about GOd, this is a personal choice, I knwo a lot of people are going to get on my case, but this is a personal choice so please don't flame me, thank you

[theseed]

Hymns at the time were just like secular music, except they had Christiant lyrics :wave:

[jenptcfan]

Hymns at the time were just like secular music, except they had Christiant lyrics :wave:
True, actually the music behind most hymns comes from old saloon music.

[theseed]

True, actually the music behind most hymns comes from old saloon music.
Your right. . . hymn melodies are drunkard melodies.

[Blazin4Christ]

Your right. . . hymn melodies are drunkard melodies.

that is true, but if you would rather sing without music and be a monk thats fine, kidding! please don't be offended, if there are any monks here

its non-Contemporary, it doesn't get safer then that, I don't have a problem with some contemporary, but most I don't listen to, AGAIN THIS IS MY PERSONAL CHOICE, DON"T FLAME ME!!!

[theseed]

Yeah, you have to be careful here--lots flammers ;)

Blazin4Christ, I noticed that your title says, "never stopped worshipping". That reminded of a verse that describes what kind of worship God wants.

John
24God is spirit, and his worshipers must worship in spirit and in truth."

So it is not the music that matters, but the heart and genuiness of the worship.

[GreenEyedLady]

True, actually the music behind most hymns comes from old saloon music.
This is an old tale that is not really true.
Its a load.....you know, of that stuff Seed quoted.
HHEHEHEHEH
GEL

[theseed]

This is an old tale that is not really true.
Its a load.....you know, of that stuff Seed quoted.
HHEHEHEHEH
GEL
Which is what??? :scratch:

[theseed]

I went to a disciple concert tonight (www.disciplerocks.com (http://www.disciplerocks.com)), Did you know that the lead singer makes it back to his church almost every Sunday to lead worship--a typical Church of God worship--not his harcore stuff.

They have a sincere heart for the Lord, and they share the word of Christ at every concert.

You may not like thier music, but that does not mean you should not support them--especially when they work to evangelize. They are from TN, my county too. And they have been doing this since 1989--thier ministry!

Likewise, we should not critize those who use hymns to evangelize, because God brings people to himself that way too.

[the Colonel]

I don't know. I find it hard to believe that thrashing, screeching music with the singers yelling the lyrics in nearly unintelligible utterings can be in any way uplifting to Christians and glorifying to God. . . . just can't see it . . .

I have, at times, tuned into a local Christian station that plays some of the "harder" Christian music. It's not my style, but I can (for the most part) understand how some can like it. I can even understand the words! But, I've also heard some really hardcores stuff. Total difference.

"Everything is permissible"–but not everything is beneficial. "Everything is permissible"–but not everything is constructive." --1 Corinthians 10:23


Also, that passage about avoiding the appearance of evil and doing things that make your brother stumble (can't find it right now).

Just some thoughts.

--CK

[12volt_man]

What are your thoughts about Christan rock music? Is it Godly?

It's music. Music is morally neutral. Some may be used for Godly purposes, some not.

How can you tell if music is not godly?

Does it glorify God? Does it edify?

What about worldy music that does not honor God? Is it somthing you listen to or you shy away from?

When you say "does not honor God", do you mean music that is simply God-neutral or music that purposely dishonors God?

This is something I deal with quite a bit, as I listen to very little Christian music (and, yes, I know that sounds odd coming from a worship leader).

A lot of the music I listen to deals with real life things like relationships and things that go wrong in relationships and some deal with bad behaviors like drunkenness and violence but I don't know of any that actually advocate bad behaviors. They either are just telling a story or some actually warn against these things.

Wayne Hancock's "Miller, Jack and Mad Dog" is such a strong warning about the dangers of alcohol abuse that the National Highway Safety Admin is using it in it's new anti-drunk driving campaign.

Basically, where I would draw the line is at any song that mocks God or encourages me to engage in sin.

I'm on the water nearly every waking minute and because space on a boat is so limited and because I want to take care of my vinyl and CD's, I'll usually make a mix tape or compress them into mp3 files. Because of this, it's very easy to enjoy an artist's music while eliminating any offensive content.

[12volt_man]

"We can (judge people by their taste or prefered style of music)?" is your words not mine. We judge PEOPLE by their fruits, meaning the evidence of their spiritual character and relationship to God.

If you have not heard about the exploits of certain christian musicans I certainly am not going to spread gossip.

I would be curious to hear you demonstrate this, too. I mean, what you're saying is a pretty serious charge. If you can't back it up, then you're bearing false witness against brothers and sisters in Christ and you really need to apologize and repent.

The devotion that some have to their christian rock stars seems idoltrous to me.

That much, I agree with.

[12volt_man]

I have been to many concerts as a youngen. Iron Maiden, Metallica(twice), Alice Cooper, Ted Nugent etc. There was no light of God in any of these concerts.

You may be interested to know that Alice Cooper is a Christian now and has released three albums that reflect his faith in Christ.

I got into a discussion about him about a year ago on another board and found a great quote from an Alice Cooper fan page. Basically, the guy was a fan who wasn't aware that Alice had found Christ and was pretty disappointed that talked quite a bit about Jesus from the stage.

[theseed]

I don't know. I find it hard to believe that thrashing, screeching music with the singers yelling the lyrics in nearly unintelligible utterings can be in any way uplifting to Christians and glorifying to God. . . . just can't see it . . .

Because you can't see it does not make it true.

"Everything is permissible"–but not everything is beneficial. "Everything is permissible"–but not everything is constructive." --1 Corinthians 10:23

The harcore, screeching music has been both beneficial and constructive in bringing people to Christ.

Also, that passage about avoiding the appearance of evil and doing things that make your brother stumble (can't find it right now).

And this music does neither. Hymns come from saloon music, which was popular at the time most of them were written.

God does not require a certain kind of music, but he does require true worship.

And if someone truly worships God in Spirit and Truth--even with screeching music, he will seek it. (John 4.21-24)

Also, hymns only music can be a stumbling block, because some people find ornate and old.

[Andyman_1970]

I was thinking of the group POD, but I'm not sure if they are 'openly christian' or not.

I listen to POD, and yes they are openly Christian.

I am curious to know which song they have done that "spouts profanity", or what lifestyle they are living that is "non-Christian".

[Andyman_1970]

I don't know. I find it hard to believe that thrashing, screeching music with the singers yelling the lyrics in nearly unintelligible utterings can be in any way uplifting to Christians and glorifying to God. . . . just can't see it . . .

I can't see how some people can worship while singing/listening to hymns. Does my "not being able to see it" make it any less real for them?

Also, that passage about avoiding the appearance of evil and doing things that make your brother stumble (can't find it right now).


I'm very curious why this "standard" that some Christians have made up does not apply to Christian country music also. Secular country music is just has a message just as "bad" as secualr rock. Some one could just a easily mistake a Christian country music song for a secular one and think your listening to Hank Williams Jr.

[GreenEyedLady]

I listen to POD, and yes they are openly Christian.

I am curious to know which song they have done that "spouts profanity", or what lifestyle they are living that is "non-Christian".
http://www.av1611.org/crock/pod_dark.html

Despite Marilyn Manson's hatred for Christianity, ripping up the Holy Bible, and mocking the Lord Jesus Christ, Sonny, of P.O.D. is still not gonna "dog" [criticize] the ordained, "official" reverend in the Church of Satan. But you'll find out later in this article, P.O.D. sure does not mind "dogging" conservative Christians — but an "official" ordained reverend in the Church of Satan, whose goal is to destroy Christianity — NO WAY!

P.O.D.’s not gonna "dog" [criticize] the ordained, "official" reverend in the Church of Satan, Marilyn Manson:

Sonny on Marilyn Manson;
"I don’t wanna dog the guy or say anything that’ll cause chaos."
(Rolling Stone, March 30, 2000 p. 31)

[Andyman_1970]

I'm not going to defend what Sonny did or didn't say as this is the first I have heard of this or read of those things.

http://www.av1611.org/crock/pod_dark.html

A KJV only site.........don't even get me started on that.

Sonny on Marilyn Manson;
"I don’t wanna dog the guy or say anything that’ll cause chaos."
(Rolling Stone, March 30, 2000 p. 31)

Hhhhmmm, Acts 19 when Paul is in Ephesus, he does not "bash" or to use this term "dog" the god Artimus while he was there. :confused:

Anyway that is very interesting information, I'll sure have to look into it more.

[GreenEyedLady]

Just wanted to point it out thats all.
GEL

[Andyman_1970]

Just wanted to point it out thats all.
GEL

I'm glad you did, thanks. I'll certainly look into this.

[Blazin4Christ]

The hardcore, screeching music has been both beneficial and constructive in bringing people to Christ.


did you ever notice how people that are unsaved listen to the music for the sole purpose that it is hardcore? it says in the Bible no one seeks Jesus, why is it any different in music? all you guys are doing is tring to justify unjustifiable music because you want your rock music so much, and more than that, how does music bring people to Christ? it takes the Holy Spirit to bring people to CHrist, oh and im sure the Holy Spirit works through Rap, Rock, Techno, Punk, etc...,(sarcasm), I walked the path of secular music before I gave my life back to God, when I did I tried CHristian rock so I could use it as an alternate, but its not much different, less talent, but all these bands are influenced by horrible secular artists, their influences are the people they are trying to copy, so how is "Christian" rock, Christian? Christianity has gone pretty low, and this is one of those area that are hitting rock bottom.

[theseed]

did you ever notice how people that are unsaved listen to the music for the sole purpose that it is hardcore? it says in the Bible no one seeks Jesus, why is it any different in music? all you guys are doing is tring to justify unjustifiable music because you want your rock music so much, and more than that, how does music bring people to Christ? it takes the Holy Spirit to bring people to CHrist, oh and im sure the Holy Spirit works through Rap, Rock, Techno, Punk, etc...,(sarcasm), I walked the path of secular music before I gave my life back to God, when I did I tried CHristian rock so I could use it as an alternate, but its not much different, less talent, but all these bands are influenced by horrible secular artists, their influences are the people they are trying to copy, so how is "Christian" rock, Christian? Christianity has gone pretty low, and this is one of those area that are hitting rock bottom.
There is no such thing as Christian music, only Christian lyrics. Hymns are based on saloon music. And so hymnal music was once considered wordly.

Nobody says that the Holy Spirit does not bring people to Christ, or that they come to Christ without the Holy Spirit. So your argument is a straw man argument.

[kayanne]

So your argument is a straw man argument.

Please forgive my ignorance. What does that expression mean exactly? I keep reading it in these forums.

[theseed]

Please forgive my ignorance. What does that expression mean exactly? I keep reading it in these forums.

straw man
n.
A person who is set up as cover or a front for a questionable enterprise.
An argument or opponent set up so as to be easily refuted or defeated.
A bundle of straw made into the likeness of a man and often used as a scarecrow.


Source (http://dictionary.reference.com/search?q=00-database-info&db=ahd4): The American Heritage® Dictionary of the English Language, Fourth Edition
Copyright © 2000 by Houghton Mifflin Company.
Published by Houghton Mifflin Company. All rights reserved.

[GreenEyedLady]

The saloon hymns is also a straw man!
That is an old myth. Maybe you should look into it a little more than just the Christian music sites that promote that old myth to sell their music.
Happy hunting.
GEL

[theseed]

The saloon hymns is also a straw man!
That is an old myth. Maybe you should look into it a little more than just the Christian music sites that promote that old myth to sell their music.
Happy hunting.
GEL
I've heard both saloon music and hymns, sorry, no straw man.

[GreenEyedLady]

I've heard both saloon music and hymns, sorry, no straw man.
Don't believe everything you hear!!!!
LOL
:kiss:

[Blazin4Christ]

i'm still wodnering why people think "Christian" rock is so Christian when the guys got tattoos like a new wall in DC that got graffiti on it, and have enough piercing to stand next to cows that are on sale with their price tag pierced in their ear, and have long hair so they can be either girly or break the law of God, and above all they have the worst effect on CHristianity, for intance P.O.D. says they are Christian, but then they go on tour with Korn, Snoop Daug, Limp Bizkit, and LP, and that is REEEAAAALLLL Christian aint it? having the singer from Korn singing Alive, then he goes and sung "Ya'll want a single" witch includes the f word 57 times, so are they so "Christian" as some perceive? or are they just more guys wearing a mask?

[Andyman_1970]

Again, with feeling this time, repeat after me: "there is no such thing as Christian music, only Christian lyrics........."

...all you guys are doing is tring to justify unjustifiable music...

As the Bible is our ultimate reference for what is true, please cite me a chapter and verse that this music is "unjustifiable".

Now I want to pose a question to all those "anti-Christian rock" folks (which I posted earlier) Why isn't there this same "witch hunt" regarding Christian Country music? Secular country music's content is just as bad (drinking, divorce, premarital sex, etc) as secular rock, but I have not heard the "music police" condemn Christian country music for "sounding" like secular country music.

[theseed]

i'm still wodnering why people think "Christian" rock is so Christian when the guys got tattoos like a new wall in DC that got graffiti on it, and have enough piercing to stand next to cows that are on sale with their price tag pierced in their ear, and have long hair so they can be either girly or break the law of God, and above all they have the worst effect on CHristianity, for intance P.O.D. says they are Christian, but then they go on tour with Korn, Snoop Daug, Limp Bizkit, and LP, and that is REEEAAAALLLL Christian aint it? having the singer from Korn singing Alive, then he goes and sung "Ya'll want a single" witch includes the f word 57 times, so are they so "Christian" as some perceive? or are they just more guys wearing a mask?
POD is not one of the bands I've been talking about, I'm talking about the real Christian bands, not the quasi Christian Bands. POD is not exclusively Christian either, they do secular music. Like Johnny Cash, they do some music with Christian themes, and some not--although Cash's was not vague at all.

So, you can't generalize POD to all other rock bands. I don't defend POD either.

[Andyman_1970]

....for intance P.O.D. says they are Christian, but then they go on tour with Korn, Snoop Daug, Limp Bizkit, and LP.......

What better way to reach lost young people than to tour with one of "their" bands. What better way to be "salt and light" to those bands.

As Greeneyedlady posted earlier, I don't know about those accusations regarding POD and some of the stuff they have said. But to "bash" a Christian band for touring with non-Christian bands seems like a weak argument.

Is this journey called Christianity all about us just having a bunch of "holy huddles" with other Christians and separating and disconnecting from this world or is it about getting in the midst of this world and being Jesus' hands and feet to those that don't know Him?

[jenptcfan]

There are no music notes in the bible. We do, however have David as an example. His worship style seems "extreme" according to how some people seem to think we should react in worship. Remember that he stripped down to his undergarment and *gasp* danced around in worship with all his might to the Lord...he even *gasp again* shouted in praise to the Lord. His wife, Michal didn't think it was proper for him to be acting that way, and she let him know about it. At the end of the chapter we see what her punishment was for chastizing him for his personal expression of sincere worship. That said, I don't think it's a good idea for us to judge the hearts of Christian music artists or other Christians who worship or perform/enjoy different music than us. If that is truly what God has laid on their hearts to do out of worship to Him, I doubt that God would appreciate us speaking against it.

2 Samuel 6
14 David, wearing a linen ephod, danced before the LORD with all his might, 15 while he and the entire house of Israel brought up the ark of the LORD with shouts and the sound of trumpets.
16 As the ark of the LORD was entering the City of David, Michal daughter of Saul watched from a window. And when she saw King David leaping and dancing before the LORD , she despised him in her heart.

20 When David returned home to bless his household, Michal daughter of Saul came out to meet him and said, "How the king of Israel has distinguished himself today, disrobing in the sight of the slave girls of his servants as any vulgar fellow would!"
21 David said to Michal, "It was before the LORD , who chose me rather than your father or anyone from his house when he appointed me ruler over the LORD's people Israel-I will celebrate before the LORD . 22 I will become even more undignified than this, and I will be humiliated in my own eyes. But by these slave girls you spoke of, I will be held in honor."
23 And Michal daughter of Saul had no children to the day of her death

[GreenEyedLady]

What better way to reach lost young people than to tour with one of "their" bands. What better way to be "salt and light" to those bands.

As Greeneyedlady posted earlier, I don't know about those accusations regarding POD and some of the stuff they have said. But to "bash" a Christian band for touring with non-Christian bands seems like a weak argument.

Is this journey called Christianity all about us just having a bunch of "holy huddles" with other Christians and separating and disconnecting from this world or is it about getting in the midst of this world and being Jesus' hands and feet to those that don't know Him?
2 Corinthians 6:16 And what agreement hath the temple of God with idols? for ye are the temple of the living God; as God hath said, I will dwell in them, and walk in them; and I will be their God, and they shall be my people.
17 Wherefore come out from among them, and be ye separate, saith the Lord, and touch not the unclean thing; and I will receive you,
18 And will be a Father unto you, and ye shall be my sons and daughters, saith the Lord Almighty.
This is what God said, not me.
We should not compromise God's word to suit the world, we should not lower God standards to meet the worlds standards. How can the world see Christ in us if there is no seperation?
GEL

[kayanne]

What better way to reach lost young people than to tour with one of "their" bands. What better way to be "salt and light" to those bands.

As Greeneyedlady posted earlier, I don't know about those accusations regarding POD and some of the stuff they have said. But to "bash" a Christian band for touring with non-Christian bands seems like a weak argument.

There are no cut and dried "rules" for every situation. However, regarding your above statement, what comes to my mind is "be not unequally yoked with unbelievers." In my opinion, to do a tour with non-Christian bands (if they are vile and sinful in their lyrics--I don't know what bands you're talking about or what their lyrics are like) would be such a close association that it would cross the line of being unequally yoked. "Placed in the same camp" so to speak. It would take a direct appearance and order from the Lord Himself to get me to participate in a music tour with an anti-Christian band.

BUT...our God is able to work even in the sinfulness of humans.
Phil 1:14-18 "Some, to be sure, are preaching Christ even from envy and strife, but some also from good will. The latter do it out of love, knowing that I am appointed for the defense of the gospel; the former proclaim Christ out of selfish ambition, rather than pure motives, thinking to cause me distress in my imprisonment. What then? Only that in very way, whether in pretense or in truth, Christ is proclaimed, and in this I rejoice, yes, and I will rejoice."

So, I believe that God CAN use any kind of music to bring people to Himself, but that doesn't mean every kind of music is equally effective in doing so, or equally pleasing to the Lord.
Personally I don't like the screechy poundy stuff that some bands produce, and I am not convinced that they are following the Lord's direction. My goodness, the tension, the grating, the screaming, the raising of my blood pressure just hearing it......it all seems a stark contrast to the gentleness, holiness, and beauty of Christ the Lamb, the Prince of Peace.

But, I am not God, and I could be wrong..... :)

[Andyman_1970]

We should not compromise God's word to suit the world, we should not lower God standards to meet the worlds standards.

I totally agree that God's Word is the Truth we base our lives upon and it does not change.

How can the world see Christ in us if there is no seperation?


What kind of separation? Do we totally live in isolation, and just interact with Christians? Or is separation referring to how we live (which I think it is and I agree with)? I struggle with this separation and how some take it too far, Jesus didn't separate Himself from the world, He lived in the midst of it (there is a difference between influencing the world and letting the world influence you). Paul didn't "separate" himself from the writings of pagan poets and prophets he read them and used those writings to make an argument for the One True God. I totally agree that a Christians life should be such that some one sees how you live and they know something is different, in a good way.

Again I pose the question, esspecially in light of this separation idea: What about Christian country music? If we are to be separated and from what I can infer from your posts, competely devoid of anything "secular" or should I say non-Christian. If this is your case and your stand, then what about Christian country music, it "sounds" like secular country music, shouldn't we "flee" from it as well? Why aren't those anti-Christian rock types addressing this question I have posed?

Just a side note: The word Christian as it is used and defined in the Bible is a noun, not an adjective. No where in the Scriptures is it used that way like we do today (ie "Christian" music).

[Andyman_1970]

This is somewhat off topic, but I thought I would comment.

it all seems a stark contrast to the gentleness, holiness, and beauty of Christ the Lamb, the Prince of Peace.


The same Jesus that stormed into the temple and threw out and whipped the money changers. The same Jesus that took a tremendous physical beating prior to the cross. The same Jesus that spent 40 days in the rugged wilderness, with no food and yet met challenge after challenge that Satan offered up (I would argue the world's finest endurance athlete). The same Jesus that went toe-to-toe in debates with the religous "holier than thou" types of the day. The same God in the flesh that rained all those plauges on Egypt, the same God that destroyed the walls at Jericho, the same God that rained fire down on the offering Elijah offered.

I could go on and on, but we get this "fair haired, gentle, quiet, soft" image of Jesus when in actuality if you look at the cultural history and context of what is written about Him, it is just the opposite. He was a rugged, strong, dude, that got angry (but did it when it was appropriate). Also the Prince of Peace has nothing to do with "the absence of conflict". The Hebrew meaning of the word peace (shalom) has more to do with the presence of God and living in harmony with Him.

Anyway, sorry for the rant.

[Blazin4Christ]

these bands such as East West and Disciple whatever they are called, Third Day, and such bands are no different than POD let me point that out

[Andyman_1970]

these bands such as East West and Disciple whatever they are called, Third Day, and such bands are no different than POD let me point that out

Please enlighten me as to how Third Day and POD are "no different".

[jenptcfan]

these bands such as East West and Disciple whatever they are called, Third Day, and such bands are no different than POD let me point that out
Why do you say that?

[12volt_man]

i'm still wodnering why people think "Christian" rock is so Christian when the guys got tattoos like a new wall in DC that got graffiti on it, and have enough piercing to stand next to cows that are on sale with their price tag pierced in their ear, and have long hair so they can be either girly or break the law of God, and above all they have the worst effect on CHristianity, for intance P.O.D. says they are Christian, but then they go on tour with Korn, Snoop Daug, Limp Bizkit, and LP, and that is REEEAAAALLLL Christian aint it?

First of all, your post is really hard to make sense out of.

It should read:

I'm still wondering why people think "Christian" rock is so Christian when Chrstian artists have tattoos, multiple piercings and long hair, which breaks the law of God.

Above all, they have the worst effect on Christianity. For intance, P.O.D. says they are Christian, but then they go on tour with Korn, Snoop Daug, Limp Bizkit, and LP. That is real Christian [behavior] isn't it?

Please don't misunderstand me, I don't mean play grammar police or tell you what to say but if you want to get your point across, then people have to be able to understand what you're saying.

Now, all of that having been said, why are tatoos, piercings and long hair necessarily "Unchristian" and what "laws of God" do they violate?

having the singer from Korn singing Alive (sic), then he goes and sung(sic) "Ya'll want a single" witch (sic) includes the f (sic) word 57 times, so are they so "Christian" as some perceive? (sic)

I don't know who Korn is and I don't know what "Alive" is but isn't that the sole responsibility of the singer?

[12volt_man]

how does music bring people to Christ? it takes the Holy Spirit to bring people to Christ, oh and im sure the Holy Spirit works through Rap, Rock, Techno, Punk, etc...,(sarcasm),

Actually, God does work through these things. The Bible says that God uses the foolish things of the world to confound the wise and the weak things to confound the strong so it's dangerous business declaring what God cannot use.

In my own case, music played a huge role in my coming to Christ. It was the bluegrass gospel music I listened to and played as a child that softened my heart enough to hear God's voice and then, later on, it was Mylon Lefevre's album, "Won by One", that made me ask the hard questions that later led to my coming to Christ.

In addition, I played in bars for years with my band and other bands and would always include songs witha strong Gospel message.

One, Randy Stonehill's "Fire", is taken almost word for word from the book of Isaiah. I also did Buddy Miller's "My Love Will Follow You", in which I would recite (loosely paraphrased) Jesus parable of the shepherd who searches for the one sheep who wanders off.

It was my great honor to have led a couple of people to Christ in the parking lot of those bars, both of which were reached with the Gospel by rock (or, in this case alt.country) music.

how is "Christian" rock, Christian?

It's not. Christian music isn't Christian music any more than non-Christian music is non-CHristian music. Books aren't Christian books. Art isn't Christian art, etc.

People are Christians. Things are not. Things cannot be Christian. They can be consecrated to Christ. They can be used to communicate Christian ideas but they are not, in and of themselves, Christian.

Christianity has gone pretty low, and this is one of those area that are hitting rock bottom.

I agree, but not for the same reasons.

While I disagree that using pop culture for Christ's sake is immoral, I am concerned about the direction in which the Christian artistic community is going.

[theseed]

these bands such as East West and Disciple whatever they are called, Third Day, and such bands are no different than POD let me point that out
Prove it.

[kayanne]

This is somewhat off topic, but I thought I would comment.



The same Jesus that stormed into the temple and threw out and whipped the money changers. The same Jesus that took a tremendous physical beating prior to the cross. The same Jesus that spent 40 days in the rugged wilderness, with no food and yet met challenge after challenge that Satan offered up (I would argue the world's finest endurance athlete). The same Jesus that went toe-to-toe in debates with the religous "holier than thou" types of the day. The same God in the flesh that rained all those plauges on Egypt, the same God that destroyed the walls at Jericho, the same God that rained fire down on the offering Elijah offered.

I could go on and on, but we get this "fair haired, gentle, quiet, soft" image of Jesus when in actuality if you look at the cultural history and context of what is written about Him, it is just the opposite. He was a rugged, strong, dude, that got angry (but did it when it was appropriate). Also the Prince of Peace has nothing to do with "the absence of conflict". The Hebrew meaning of the word peace (shalom) has more to do with the presence of God and living in harmony with Him.

Anyway, sorry for the rant.

Yes, I know that Jesus wasn't some little wimpy puny thing who was always speaking ever-so-tenderly. But He wasn't screaming, pounding, head-banging, screeching and calling it praise to His Father.

Let me try to make my point again. IMO, music that is to worship God or edify us as Christians should not be SO EXTREMELY dissonant, screechy, agitated, blaring, and angry sounding. Although strife and conflict are a part of the world we live in, I do not believe that Christian music should sound like the *extremely* hard rock that produces strife, anger, conflict, and even violence in the listener.

I'm not at all saying that all Christian rock is wrong. Nor do I consider Christian country wrong, or most other genres. I do think there is a line of appropriateness that gets crossed with *extremely* hard rock. Perhaps that screeching, grating noise stuff does appeal to some people, perhaps some claim it helped them find Christ. But I have to believe that as those people mature in their faith, they will see that there are other styles of music more appropriate for glorifying the Lord.

[theseed]

Although strife and conflict are a part of the world we live in, I do not believe that Christian music should sound like the *extremely* hard rock that produces strife, anger, conflict, and even violence in the listener.
But there is many hard rock bands that don't produce angry violent lyrics, or bring strife or conflict.

[kayanne]

But there is many hard rock bands that don't produce angry violent lyrics, or bring strife or conflict.

Just asking--are you saying that you can listen to the intensely hard rock music, and it doesn't kind of stir up a feeling of tension or agitation within you? To me, it absolutely stresses me out, much like when I hear my kids screaming and arguing with each other and I just want to pull my hair out. I can't imagine that anyone listening to intensely (I mean the really extreme stuff) hard rock music would respond emotionally or physically in a peaceful, calm, reverent way. Or even in a joyful praise sort of way. It just seems so grating.

I would guess that by now someone has done a study on extremely loud hard rock music, as regarding its effects on one's heart rate, blood pressure, serotonin levels, or other physical factors related to "well-being." Anyone know of any published results?

[Andyman_1970]

I do think there is a line of appropriateness that gets crossed with *extremely* hard rock. Perhaps that screeching, grating noise stuff does appeal to some people, perhaps some claim it helped them find Christ. But I have to believe that as those people mature in their faith, they will see that there are other styles of music more appropriate for glorifying the Lord.

Do you notice the use of a personal pronoun a lot here? “I”, not “the Bible says” or “Jesus said” or “the Lord said”….. jsut alot of ”I”s. And that is fine, which is your preference and you are certainly intitled to it, not a command from the Lord, please keep that in mind.

You have a hard time believing someone who is “mature” in the faith would listen to this. I have a hard time believing someone mature in the faith (who knows the Scriptures, and LIVES THEM), would judge another believer based on the music they listen to (which is exactly what you are doing). What’s that verse Jesus quotes about the speck of dust in your brothers eye and the log in yours?????

Check out Galatians, those Judiazers were saying “I have a hard time believing someone with a mature faith wouldn’t get circumcised. I have a hard time believing someone with a mature faith would eat that. I have a hard time believing someone who had a mature faith wouldn’t celebrate this feast like I do.” Is any of this sounding remotely familiar? Any “requirement” to listen to or not listen to a certain kind of music is adding rules and regulations to the Text that is not there.

Anyway, there is a disturbing lack of relevant Scripture on this thread regarding this. Why is that? Because there is no command, other than the prohibition of foul language, regarding music. This all boils down to preference and prejudice, there is no Scriptural “backup”. However we can get some guidance on issues like this were there is a disagreement, but no clear cut command from the Lord either way. Check out Romans 14

Romans 14:1-3 “And receive the one who is weak in the faith, not to judgments of your thoughts.
One indeed believes to eat all things, but being weak, another one eats vegetables.
The one eating, do not despise the one not eating. And the one not eating, do not judge the one eating, for God received him.”

Romans 14:5-6 “One indeed judges a day above another day; and another one judges every day alike. Let each one be fully assured in his own mind. The one minding the day, he minds it to the Lord. And the one not minding the day, he does not mind it to the Lord. The one eating, he eats to the Lord; for he gives thanks to God. And the one not eating, he does not eat to the Lord, and gives thanks to God.”

Romans 14: 10-18 “But why do you judge your brother? Or why also do you despise your brother? For all shall stand before the judgment seat of Christ. For it has been written, "As I live, says the Lord, that every knee will bow to Me, and every tongue confess to God." Isa. 45:23
So then each one of us will give account concerning himself to God.
Then let us no longer judge one another, but rather judge this, not to put a stumbling-block or an offense toward a brother. I know and am persuaded in the Lord Jesus that nothing by itself is common; except to the one deeming anything to be common, it is common. But if your brother is grieved because of your food, you no longer walk according to love. Do not by your food destroy that one for whom Christ died. Then do not let your good be spoken evil of. For the kingdom of God is not eating and drinking, but righteousness and peace and joy in the Holy Spirit. For the one serving Christ in these things is pleasing to God, and approved by men.”

So we see in these passages that if it is a stumbling block to our brother we are not to do it out of love. So when kayanne or blazin4Christ or Greeneyedlady ride in my truck, I will not play my POD, Third Day, Kutless, Project 86, EastWest, or 12 Stones CD’s, out of love and respect for my brother. Now does that make that music “bad”? Not according to this passage. If it is a sin for you, or you don’t like it (these “gray” areas that there is not command for) then don’t do it. However do not judge your brother who does do these things and does not have a problem with it (listen to this music).

1 Samuel 16:7 “The Lord does not look at the things man looks at (or the music you listen to). Man looks at the outward appearance, but the Lord looks at the heart.”

Several of the posts with all due respect are very disturbing. The judgmental and “holier than thou” attitudes expressed either explicitly or implied are NOT honoring to the Lord. Implying that I am somehow “spiritually immature” because of the music I listen to (which I do, and which you implied), based on your opinion/preference/prejudice (as opposed to based on Scripture) is disrespectful. Period. When you are disrespectful to someone who are you ultimately disrespectful to? As every human is made in the image of the Creator, when you are disrespectful to someone, you are ultimately disrespectful to God.

Hopefully this will clear things up.

[kayanne]

Do you notice the use of a personal pronoun a lot here? “I”, not “the Bible says” or “Jesus said” or “the Lord said”….. jsut alot of ”I”s. And that is fine, which is your preference and you are certainly intitled to it, not a command from the Lord, please keep that in mind.

Several of the posts with all due respect are very disturbing. The judgmental and “holier than thou” attitudes expressed either explicitly or implied are NOT honoring to the Lord. Implying that I am somehow “spiritually immature” because of the music I listen to (which I do, and which you implied), is disrespectful. Period. When you are disrespectful to someone who are you ultimately disrespectful to? As every human is made in the image of the Creator, when you are disrespectful to someone, you are ultimately disrespectful to God.

Hopefully this will clear things up.

Whoa there!! I think someone's been listening to too much tension-producing hard rock music and has their blood pressure up to about 180/120. :mad:
JUST KIDDING. :D Chill out. :angel:

OK, so "I" used the word "I" a lot in my post. We are here to discuss our opinions and interpretations. I said in an earlier post that there are no hard and fast rules when it comes to music. In many areas of our spiritual lives, we must employ discernment. When discussing points for consideration to help us discern what music we should listen to, there will be a certain amount of "I believe" and "I have experienced," etc, along with the scriptures, which I have posted in various posts of mine.

It was not my intention to sound "holier than thou." Please re-read my last post. Even though my reply/questions were to myseed, you could help me out and answer them. I was sincere when I asked about emotional response to hard-rock music. Are you saying that it does actually make you feel close to the Lord, in awe of Him, reverence? If yes, that's fine. I'm just trying to understand--as I said, it makes me want to pull my hair out and scream from the chaotic, agitating, screechy sounds that truly don't make me think of any of the attributes of God whatsoever.

I also said in an earlier post "I'm not God...I could be wrong," as well as "God CAN use any kind of music to bring people to Himself." I have tried to be respectful of opposing viewpoints, but you don't see me as being that way, so I do apologize.

John 4:24 says "God is spirit, and those who worship Him must worship Him in spirit and in truth," and Psalm 2:11 says "Worship the Lord in reverence."
Since the Bible does not tell us exactly what kind of music is acceptable for worship, we can conclude either:
1) Absolutely any kind of music is acceptable to God --or--
2) God expects us to be discerning regarding music.

I happen to believe #2. But do please try to help me see what it is in extreme hard rock that helps you worship the Lord, because I truly don't "get it." And so far you've just criticized me for having my opinion, without giving me any reason to change my opinion. I truly am open to your thoughts on this.

blessings, kayanne

[Caedmon]

. . . and above all they have the worst effect on CHristianity, for intance P.O.D. says they are Christian, but then they go on tour with Korn, Snoop Daug, Limp Bizkit, and LP, and that is REEEAAAALLLL Christian aint it? having the singer from Korn singing Alive, then he goes and sung "Ya'll want a single" witch includes the f word 57 times, so are they so "Christian" as some perceive? or are they just more guys wearing a mask?Actually, they say it exactly 89 times. Jonathan uses such strong language because he is utterly disgusted by the way that corporations and the media censor and control the music industry in America. If you view the music video, you'll see different statistics periodically shown on the screen, like how many songs are allowed on the radio versus how many songs actually come out every week. It's a statement against the corporate manipulation of the music industry. The repeated use of the dreaded 'f-bomb' flies in the face of such censorship and manipulation. This particular word is used by the media and corporations, being struck down as a sort of 'whipping boy' for corporate interests in the industry, giving the public the impression that corporations and the media are 'good,' and that they should be allowed to continue controlling which bands succeed (usually the ones in the corporations' back pockets) and which don't, and likewise, which songs we are allowed to hear. Beware, Big Brother is watching...

[Andyman_1970]

This issue tends to get me all wound up. From what I have seen in person and on here it produces such legalism, judgementalism, and discord between brothers and sisters in the Faith.

How are we to be known to the world (according to the Scriptures)? By the music we listen to? By the music we don't listen to? By how we judge others? Because we are doctrinally correct and have the verses to prove it? According to Jesus the world will know us by our love (agape) for one another. So if we are suppose to unconditionally love one another, why do we beat each other up over someone PREFERENCE in style of music? Does anyone else see what a terrible witness this is to the world when they see us do this?

OK, so "I" used the word "I" a lot in my post. We are here to discuss our opinions and interpretations. I said in an earlier post that there are no hard and fast rules when it comes to music.

These are opinions only, there is nothing no Scripture to interpret on this subject of preference of musical style. If there are no hard and fast rules then what's up with the spiritual matuity comment, evidently in your mind there are hard and fast rules. Kayanne, I don't mean to beat you over the head with that comment, but let's seriously explore what that implys. This preference has gone from a preference to something that others "should" be doing. If this were a "black and white" issue like say adultery, or lying, then a believer has every Biblical right to confront (in love) his brother or sister. But with an issue that is not addressed in the Scripture to assert that somehow everyone that is "a good Christian" would do this or that (be it the music they listen to, the clothes they wear, whether or not thay have tattoos), is exactly what Paul preached against in the book of Galatians.

In many areas of our spiritual lives, we must employ discernment. When discussing points for consideration to help us discern what music we should listen to, there will be a certain amount of "I believe" and "I have experienced," etc, along with the scriptures, which I have posted in various posts of mine.

I totally 100% agree. We must stop letting our preachers/pastors/websites think for us on these issues that are merely preference and not a command of God. With all due respect "blazin4christ" just the fact you equate Third Day and POD as "no different" is demonstrating that you have not listened to both bands, and that probably you are repeating something you read or were told, not something you explored and answered for yourself (which is what the Scriptures say we are suppose to do).

It was not my intention to sound "holier than thou." Please re-read my last post. Even though my reply/questions were to myseed, you could help me out and answer them. I was sincere when I asked about emotional response to hard-rock music. Are you saying that it does actually make you feel close to the Lord, in awe of Him, reverence?.

Yep listeing to these songs at various times does make me feel close to the Lord. I'll use examples from both POD and Third Day, both of these bands are CCM, but both are VERY different styles. POD has a song "Is that all you got?" I believe that is a song that in part is "yelling" at Satan as if to say "you can't hurt me. (and the song goes) Is that all you got, I'll take your best shot!" Now I did an adult Sunday School lesson based on this (no music was played). What in effect was Jesus' rising from the dead and making breakfast that first Easter morning say to Satan? Remember Jesus had endured what is arguable the most painful way to die. Satan did the very worst he could to Jesus, and what did Jesus do? He rose from the dead and made breakfast. In effect saying to Satan, "Is that all you got? Cause I'm still standing". So when I listen to this song, I think of Jesus' victory on the cross over Satan and death ("where o death is your sting, where o death is your victory?")

The band Project 86 has a song "stalemate" and it the lyrics go "A little detour won't hurt let me change you slowly A moment's pleasure, but you'll owe me." Most of the time when I listen to that song, I have been contemplating something (sin) and this helps me realize (among other things) that even though it might look good (that sin) it is just for a moment and that "I'll owe" if I do it.


Third Day's "King of Glory" Who is this King of angels, O blessed Prince of Peace Revealing things of Heaven and all its mysteries My spirit’s ever longing for His grace in which to stand Who's this King of glory, Son of God and son of man His name is Jesus, precious Jesus The Lord Almighty, the King of my heart The King of glory

I listen to that quite a bit esspecially when I am preparing a lesson for my class. The Third Day song "Your love endures" is essentially Psalms 136. How much more "Christian" can you get, singing a Psalm.

God gave us emotions to act on them and to love Him with them, not so we can stand around like the "frozen chosen" and sing "how great thou art" (which I personally like) for the 400th time with no emotion or feeling. What did Jesus say was the MOST important commandment (which was also a prayer central to His life)?

If yes, that's fine. I'm just trying to understand--as I said, it makes me want to pull my hair out and scream from the chaotic, agitating, screechy sounds that truly don't make me think of any of the attributes of God whatsoever.

You don't have to like it, no one is saying you have to. In the light of Romans 14 just don't judge your brother or sister who does, it's personal preference, not a command from the Lord. I actually understand how you feel about this music, I feel the same way about "Gaither" music. For me there is absolutly NO worship aspect when I listen to it, not matter how many times they sing "old rugged cross", it just does not move me. Do I think those who listen only to "Gaither" music are spiritually immature? Nope, that is what they like, if it helps them worship, then great.

I have tried to be respectful of opposing viewpoints, but you don't see me as being that way, so I do apologize.

I appreciate your apology but it is not nessecary. We as followers of Jesus need to be VERY careful about judging our brothers and sisters based on our preferences and cultural prejudices on issues that are not Scriptural.

John 4:24 says "God is spirit, and those who worship Him must worship Him in spirit and in truth," and Psalm 2:11 says "Worship the Lord in reverence."
Since the Bible does not tell us exactly what kind of music is acceptable for worship, we can conclude either:
1) Absolutely any kind of music is acceptable to God --or--
2) God expects us to be discerning regarding music.

Other than the content of the lyrics, we have nothing else with which to discern if music is "good" or "bad" from a Scriptural point of view. Since the Scriptures are silent on the "style" of music, we then to revert to what is personally acceptable to us (Romans 14). Did God not create that Christian Rock also, did He not give those artists the talents they have and the inspiration for those lyrics (the only thing we can judge about music)?

How many Scriptures say "Shout to the Lord" or "Praise Him with loud voices"?

I happen to believe #2. But do please try to help me see what it is in extreme hard rock that helps you worship the Lord, because I truly don't "get it."

To be Biblically discerning about music would entail being discerning regarding the lyrics only. The style, beat, presentation, is all personal preference, God made us all different, so it would stand to reason that different styles of music would speak differently to different people. God went to great lengths to instuct us on things that are not good for us, why then is He silent regarding style of music? I believe that He knows we are all different, and wants to speak to us through different styles of music in a way that is meaningful to each person.

And so far you've just criticized me for having my opinion, without giving me any reason to change my opinion. I truly am open to your thoughts on this.


I apologize for being critical. As I said at the begining of this post, this issue does so much harm to the Body it creates such division and judgementalism, that I believe through His word He does not intend for us.

[theseed]

Just asking--are you saying that you can listen to the intensely hard rock music, and it doesn't kind of stir up a feeling of tension or agitation within you? To me, it absolutely stresses me out, much like when I hear my kids screaming and arguing with each other and I just want to pull my hair out. I can't imagine that anyone listening to intensely (I mean the really extreme stuff) hard rock music would respond emotionally or physically in a peaceful, calm, reverent way. Or even in a joyful praise sort of way. It just seems so grating.

I would guess that by now someone has done a study on extremely loud hard rock music, as regarding its effects on one's heart rate, blood pressure, serotonin levels, or other physical factors related to "well-being." Anyone know of any published results?

It may get you excited and on edge--but that does not mean it does everybody that way. Many people do relax to it. And reflect on God.

[theseed]

It may get you excited and on edge--but that does not mean it does everybody that way. Many people do relax to it. And reflect on God.
Many people get excited over praise music--is that irreverant too?

[the Colonel]

Perhaps the real test is whether or not the music sung and/or listened to is uplifting and glorifying Christ/God (as is its pretense). Or, is the music designed, sung, and listened to for the praise and glory of the singers and listeners? Hmm . . .

[Andyman_1970]

Perhaps the real test is whether or not the music sung and/or listened to is uplifting and glorifying Christ/God (as is its pretense). Or, is the music designed, sung, and listened to for the praise and glory of the singers and listeners? Hmm . . .

Hmmm, maybe? As we have no Scripture on this to "test" the style of music (other than the content of the lyrics), we are each left to ourselves to determine and discern what is right for us. You "test" may work for you, and that is great, but we can't assume it will work for every believer, or insist every believer use it or think that way. What you think is glorifying to the singer/listener may for someone else uplifting and glorifying to God. Again, God has wired us all differently, some like spinach some don't, some like Gaither some don't, some like Third Day some don't.

[Caedmon]

some like spinach some don'tHehehe, that was funny. ^_^

Sorry... :sorry:

[kayanne]

This issue tends to get me all wound up.
On this much we agree! ;)



These are opinions only, there is nothing no Scripture to interpret on this subject of preference of musical style. If there are no hard and fast rules then what's up with the spiritual matuity comment, evidently in your mind there are hard and fast rules. Kayanne, I don't mean to beat you over the head with that comment, but let's seriously explore what that implys.

Maybe all that it implies is that I'm a bit more of an "old-fogey" than you, and I don't know anyone my age who listens to that stuff, likes that stuff, or even considers it worshipful. Believe it or not, I am one of the more liberal minded people in my church where music is concerned--I'll tolerate almost anything except the far far extreme. But maybe even that's just the "old-fogey-ness" in me and has nothing to do with spiritual maturity. But on the other hand, I do believe that there are scriptural principles that can be applied here. Since it is just "my" personal application and interpretation though, I'll drop it at that.



. Satan did the very worst he could to Jesus, and what did Jesus do? He rose from the dead and made breakfast.
??? You lost me here.


God gave us emotions to act on them and to love Him with them, not so we can stand around like the "frozen chosen" and sing "how great thou art"
At least when I stated my opinion, I was not sarcastic or calling names.



Other than the content of the lyrics, we have nothing else with which to discern if music is "good" or "bad" from a Scriptural point of view.
As a Christian and as a music teacher, I disagree, but as I said earlier, the Scriptural principles that I apply here would be my interpretation and you would probably disagree.

Did God not create that Christian Rock also,
Not necessarily. Maybe He did, but just because a person comes up with something, doesn't mean God created it. For example, what one person might call "art" (and might even say it is to glorify God for His creation of the human form), another person might call p*rn. And there would be quite a span of what most people would call beautiful, uplifting art; then heading into "questionable" forms of art; and finally into full-fledged p*rn. I hope you would agree that, while most art is fine, there does exist a line (though we may disagree exactly where the line is) which when crossed, the "art" is no longer glorifying to God, but rather is intended to appeal to the flesh. There are no "hard and fast" rules in the Bible about what is acceptable as art, exactly what is meant by "modesty," etc. But I'm sure not going to say it's ALL acceptable to God. As we move from white, and into the murky gray, toward the clear-cut black (in art, music, tv, books, anything!) we need to be very careful and very discerning as we head into those gray areas.


How many Scriptures say "Shout to the Lord" or "Praise Him with loud voices"?
Nothing to disagree with there.


To be Biblically discerning about music would entail being discerning regarding the lyrics only. The style, beat, presentation, is all personal preference, God made us all different, so it would stand to reason that different styles of music would speak differently to different people. God went to great lengths to instuct us on things that are not good for us, why then is He silent regarding style of music?
I've explained my disagreements with similar statements above. I am sorry that my previous post came across "holier than thou." I really am fairly open minded about music, but I do not believe that absolutely "anything goes."

[Andyman_1970]

On this much we agree! ;).

Good, it's about time, just kidding.

Maybe all that it implies is that I'm a bit more of an "old-fogey" than you, and I don't know anyone my age who listens to that stuff, likes that stuff, or even considers it worshipful.

Nothing wrong with "old fogeyness", if it works for you, and you like the traditional stuff, that is great!

But on the other hand, I do believe that there are scriptural principles that can be applied here. Since it is just "my" personal application and interpretation though, I'll drop it at that.

I do too, it's Romans 14. The problem comes when you or I try to assert that our interpretation of something that is not clearly lined out in the Scriptures as a "must do". That is legalism.


You lost me here.

That's ok, that was not the main point of my post. The point of my lesson was Jesus rising from the dead and making breakfast that morning (of all things to make breakfast, how cool), was in effect "saying" through His actions to the powers of darkness "Is that all you got? Is that the best you can do?" (death where is your sting...) Anyway.............


At least when I stated my opinion, I was not sarcastic or calling names.

That statement was aimed at me and the my church more that you. I did not clarify that, I apologize. At least regarding the "how great thou art" that is not an opinion that is an observable fact, in my case.

As a Christian and as a music teacher, I disagree, but as I said earlier, the Scriptural principles that I apply here would be my interpretation and you would probably disagree.

It's fine to disagree on issues like this. That's what I posted last time, according to Jesus how will the world know us? By our love for one another. Just because I disagree does not make me right and you wrong (on this issue) and it does not make you right and me wrong. This is an issue of indivdual preference, to make it something more is imposing rules and regulations on people that are not in the Scriptures.

Not necessarily. Maybe He did, but just because a person comes up with something, doesn't mean God created it.

I agree, but of if the lyrics line up with the requirements laid out in the Scriptures (no foul language, does not blasephem the Lord) and it is from a professing Christian I wouldn't dare think that God did not have a hand in it. To think that God didn't IMO is putting God in a "box". The Lord is FAR larger, deeper, and mysterious than we can fathom.

There are no "hard and fast" rules in the Bible about what is acceptable as art,

True, what is acceptable to you may not be to me, again Romans 14. As far as nudity and art from a personal standpoint I do not even look at the "artful" stuff that is nude. Now my brother in Christ may not have a problem with one of those classic armless naked women that those Greeks carved, and that is fine, it's not a sin to him. To me it is a sin, so I avoid it, but that does not automatically (according to the Scriptures) make it a sin for him. The same goes for music.

As we move from white, and into the murky gray, toward the clear-cut black (in art, music, tv, books, anything!) we need to be very careful and very discerning as we head into those gray areas.

I totally agree, we do need to be VERY discerning, the Scriptures tell us to test everything. The problem is most people (some that have posted on here, but not you Kayanne) make comments about a musical group they most likely have never heard, but they read about on a website or heard their pastor say something about (I am referring to Third Day specifically). If these people would actually do the research and test it themselves (like Paul tells us to) they would see that the style they may not like, but the content is in fact Godly. Why have we as Christians "checked our brains" at the door, so to speak? Look how Jesus taught. He asked lots of questions, which is exactly how Rabbi's taught. Why did they do that? To get you thinking. God gave us a brain, we need to use it, His Word even tells us to (this is a general comment to the anti-CCM crowd, not directed to Kayanne specifically).


but I do not believe that absolutely "anything goes.

I don't believe anything goes either. But if you read the Scriptures, you'll see that God does set the boundaries for our music, He sets the boundaries for the lyrics. If we work in that frame work in those boundaries, then anything does go(if we want to use Scripture as our guide). If you want to disagree with that, that anything in the boundaries God setup is fine, then that is your choice. But I believe God gave me everything I need to live this life as He intended in the Scriptures, we don't need any "outside assitance" or additonal rules to accomplish that. Those outside rules and regulations are known as legalism, and I believe both Jesus and Paul address those subjects completely.

If your system works for you that's fine, but you cannot assert that other believers "must" agree to something that is not defined in the Scriptures.

[FrAzEr1803]

i agree with kayanne, i believe that there is a place where we should draw the line with music. as a Christian Rock artist (touch wood lol) i would say that rock is ok lol, but i can't see how full on Heavy Metal worship works out! i mean, you would leave the services with a banging headache!

lol i should really read all of what is written before i type something shouldn't i? lol. :scratch:

[kayanne]

, but i can't see how full on Heavy Metal worship works out! i mean, you would leave the services with a banging headache!

I'm going to try to lighten up on this topic, and tell a couple of funny stories (well, *I* think they're funny).
A while back a neighbor kid wandered over while I was doing some yard work, and he started chatting with me. He told me he had a pretty bad headache and was kind of sore all over. I asked him what had he been doing. He said, "Oh, last night I went to a Christian concert." I asked "What happened that made you so sore?!" And he answered, "Oh, I got pretty banged up in the mosh pit." :eek:

Now I'll reveal how I came to my point of intolerance of extreme hard rock. Many years ago my family was going on a trip to visit my grandparents, who lived 1200 miles away. My brother and I were both old enough to take turns with the driving, and the rule was that the driver could pick what tape to have playing. Back then I was into Elton John, Chicago, Linda Ronstadt, that kind of music. But my brother...boy oh boy did he like to crank up the hard rock. So there I was, trapped in the family station wagon for a 2400 mile roundtrip, being subjected to this indescribably awful "music" (noise? :P ), watching the interstate pavement whiz by at 65 mph, debating with myself whether it would be more painful to hurl myself out the car door, or to remain trapped in the station wagon with the hideous blood curdling music blaring out of the speakers! :sick:
To this day, when I hear really awful acid-type rock, images of the station wagon windows with the road whizzing past fill my mind! My brother still listens to some fairly wild music (though it's tamer than in his younger years) but I love him and in fact we still go on trips together with our families! He's much better at compromising on the music as we travel than he was as a teen!! :D

[theseed]

i agree with kayanne, i believe that there is a place where we should draw the line with music. as a Christian Rock artist (touch wood lol) i would say that rock is ok lol, but i can't see how full on Heavy Metal worship works out! i mean, you would leave the services with a banging headache!

lol i should really read all of what is written before i type something shouldn't i? lol. :scratch:
I am not saying that hardcore and heavy metal music is ok in a church service, it would only pleas a select few. I am saying that one can worship God the same way one worships God using hymns.

Such hardcore music has a ministry outside of church's services.

[Blazin4Christ]

ok ...it would only please a select few...


first tell me seed, do you think it pleases God? after all Jesus himself said, in 2 Corinthians 6:14 "Be ye not unequally yoked together with unbelievers: for what fellowship hath righteousness with unrighteousness? and what communion hath light with darkness?"

Jesus himself said righteousness can't be mixed with unrighteosness, so can all this fleshly heavy metal ever mix with sacred lyrics regarding God? I don't think so, I used to LOVE secular msuic, I listened to Korn, Limp Bizkit, Godsmack, Pillar, Linkin Park, Disturbed, etc..., when I gave it up and gave my life back to CHrist I threw all my CDs away, but then I got into "Christian" rock, and I realized how it was not much better, in fact it was pretty much the same as the secular artists. I was struggling in this situation, so iwent to my pastor and asked what should I do to choose music? and he said this "Listen to something Jesus would listen to, do you think Jesus would listen to Heavy Metal and start shaking his head uncontrollably to the music and such?" and I said "No sir" and he is right, Jesus would never do that, and Jesus is what the Christian should model himself after so don't do it

[jenptcfan]

first tell me seed, do you think it pleases God? after all Jesus himself said, in 2 Corinthians 6:14 "Be ye not unequally yoked together with unbelievers: for what fellowship hath righteousness with unrighteousness? and what communion hath light with darkness?"

Jesus himself said righteousness can't be mixed with unrighteosness, so can all this fleshly heavy metal ever mix with sacred lyrics regarding God? I don't think so, I used to LOVE secular msuic, I listened to Korn, Limp Bizkit, Godsmack, Pillar, Linkin Park, Disturbed, etc..., when I gave it up and gave my life back to CHrist I threw all my CDs away, but then I got into "Christian" rock, and I realized how it was not much better, in fact it was pretty much the same as the secular artists. I was struggling in this situation, so iwent to my pastor and asked what should I do to choose music? and he said this "Listen to something Jesus would listen to, do you think Jesus would listen to Heavy Metal and start shaking his head uncontrollably to the music and such?" and I said "No sir" and he is right, Jesus would never do that, and Jesus is what the Christian should model himself after so don't do it
How do you know Jesus would never do that...other than your pastor telling you so? Did you read the passage about how David worshipped? He danced with all his might, jumped and leaped, shouted. He was a man after God's own heart, and that was how God put it on him to worship at a given moment. It's all about what's in the heart of the person doing the listening, and none of us can see inside anyone else's heart.

There's nothing fleshly about a musical arrangement. There are fleshly words, but no fleshly musical notes. I'm not sure what any of this has to do with the unequally yoked passage, since we're talking about Christians singing Christian words.

If you can't listen to Christian rock because it reminds you of secular rock, then by all means, that's a great reason not to listen to it. But it's not that way for everyone, and that's what we have to be understanding of.

[theseed]

first tell me seed, do you think it pleases God? after all Jesus himself said, in 2 Corinthians 6:14 "Be ye not unequally yoked together with unbelievers: for what fellowship hath righteousness with unrighteousness? and what communion hath light with darkness?"

I'm not talking about unbelievers.

I don't think so, I used to LOVE secular msuic,

I'm not talking about secular music either.

[Blazin4Christ]

How do you know Jesus would never do that...other than your pastor telling you so? Did you read the passage about how David worshipped? He danced with all his might, jumped and leaped, shouted. He was a man after God's own heart, and that was how God put it on him to worship at a given moment. It's all about what's in the heart of the person doing the listening, and none of us can see inside anyone else's heart.

There's nothing fleshly about a musical arrangement. There are fleshly words, but no fleshly musical notes. I'm not sure what any of this has to do with the unequally yoked passage, since we're talking about Christians singing Christian words.

If you can't listen to Christian rock because it reminds you of secular rock, then by all means, that's a great reason not to listen to it. But it's not that way for everyone, and that's what we have to be understanding of.

first you tell me what Jesus did, not what David did, what Jesus would do was different than man, for he is not of men, and when you say musical notes don't have meaning that is flat wrong, musical notes have everything to do withthe msuic, if they weren't that important than why is it played thorughout the song? and the notes are what give the feeling to the song, you don't see someone sing Amazing Grace with a depressing atitude in music do u? I didn't think so, i'm only telling you guys this because I know its wrong and I know the same is coming for you guys, but if you don't really care, thats fine, i just won't post here

[Andyman_1970]

first you tell me what Jesus did, not what David did, what Jesus would do was different than man, for he is not of men,

Was Jesus not a Jew? Was Jesus not also a Rabbi? Did not Jesus also have a mother an earthly father, and brothers and sisters? Did Jesus display human emotions? Did Jesus get tired? My point is as Jesus was fully human and fully God, He was not this esoteric figure that floated around everywhere and His head all backlit like we see in the movies. He was a man every bit as much as He as God.

While we are on the subject of dancing and such, lets look at how Jews did their worship services in the 1st century according to the historical and cultural facts we know.

In a synagoge service, the head Rabbi (the Hasan) would take the Torah scrolls from the scroll closet and hand them to who ever was teaching that day. Now what was/is the most important prayer (and for the Christian the most important according to Jesus) to a Jew? The Shema, "Love the Lord your God......" (Deut 6, a good Torah observant Jew would pray this at least twice a day), the Jews understood that to love the Lord with your whole strength meant to love Him literally with your whole body. So in the synagoge service, the teacher for the day would parade the Scrolls around the synagoge and the congregation would push and shove to get up to the Torah so they could kiss Torah, and they would dance and sing and shout because they were so in love with the Words of God (ie Love the Lord with their whole body as per the Shema). This is how Jews in the 1st century worshipped. Now hold on to your pew belts............the teacher for the day was to set an example of passion and intensity for the congregation for dancing and worshipping before the Scrolls. So in Mark 1, and Luke 4 where Jesus is teaching in the synagoge He is the "lead dancer".

you don't see someone sing Amazing Grace with a depressing atitude in music do u?

You know the musical tune for amazing grace is from an old saloon song don't you?? Ooopps, it must not be Christian then, because the writer of the musical notes was not a Christian................... ;)

[Andyman_1970]

because I know its wrong and I know the same is coming for you guys, but if you don't really care, thats fine, i just won't post here

How do you know this is wrong, because your conscience tells you or the Scriptures tell you??

I know the same is coming for you guys,

So if it is "wrong" for us, please share chapter and verse that Christian rock is prohibited by the Lord.

If the Scriptures are our "manual" for how to live this Christian life (for us to live as God intends for us to live) we are called to live, and the Holy infallible Word of the Living God, then please share with me (us) where in the Scriptures listening to Christian rock is prohibited.

[SumTinWong]

Sometimes I like to listen to songs from when I was a kid, but most of the time I don't have the taste for them anymore. I may however listen to country, as it seems in between the "why don't we get drunk and laid" songs, there are actually quite a few Christian themed songs(I love you this much, long black train, If I were Jesus...etc). So there has to be some sort of filtering I guess.

I used to like Ozzy, AC-DC, BlackSabbath, etc..., but to be quite honest I couldn't possibly listen to them today my conscience wont let me. That is just me though.

What I do wish for is some better CCM out there. I have only found a handful of bands that I like: Petra, Across the Sky (http://www.acrossthesky.com), Gaither Vocal band, and I still like the Imperials, Sweet Comfort Band, Andre Crouch, and Dallas Holm... There are some pretty good and free(and legal) I might add songs on the net in various places like: Grassroots Music (http://www.grassrootsmusic.com/mp3/)or Paste Music (http://www.pastemusic.com/radio/mp3/default.asp)

To me, I just as soon stay away from some of the secular bands and such as they don't line up with my values anymore. I can't associate myself with the desperation that is sometimes heard in songs like I used to.

Just my opinion folks, spare me the eggs if you don't mind.

[jenptcfan]

first you tell me what Jesus did, not what David did, what Jesus would do was different than man, for he is not of men, and when you say musical notes don't have meaning that is flat wrong, musical notes have everything to do withthe msuic, if they weren't that important than why is it played thorughout the song? and the notes are what give the feeling to the song, you don't see someone sing Amazing Grace with a depressing atitude in music do u? I didn't think so, i'm only telling you guys this because I know its wrong and I know the same is coming for you guys, but if you don't really care, thats fine, i just won't post here
Do you not know that David was referred to as the "man after God's own heart"? And if you go back and read those verses, you see that he tells his wife (who thought his actions of worship were extreme and inappropriate) that he was doing what he was doing "unto the Lord". She was then punished by God for speaking against his act of worship. It seems to me that that's a pretty good indication about how God felt about it.

Actually, many times when I see a congregation singing Amazing Grace, people don't seem happy about it at all. Blank expressions, just singing words they've memorized all their lives. This isn't true for everyone, but I see it a lot--where it seems like the music is old and familiar and people don't think about the words anymore.

What I said was there are no music notes in the scripture. If you can find music notes in the scripture, please point me to them. :) Since they're not there, we don't know what the musical arrangements behind the psalms were. All we were given was the words that were sung. You can assume that they were all sung in a very sedate fashion with no beat behind them, as he was sitting quietly in the corner of his tent if you want to, but David wrote those words, and we're given other examples where his worship style was not always sedate.

If you feel convicted that it's wrong for you, that's fine. Please continue with what you feel is God's leading in your life. But don't assume that God speaks to everyone the same way. He doesn't. You can read what God puts in your spiritual mailbox, but don't go trying to put the messages God gives you about your life into other peoples' mailboxes. It doesn't work that way. :)

[Andyman_1970]

Just my opinion folks, spare me the eggs if you don't mind.

That's where I think the whole disconnect is coming from.

Lollard you admit this is your opinion, which is great. According to Romans 14, if a person does not like something that is fine for them but the problem comes when this dislike moves from an opinon and personal preference to a "must do" that is imposed on other believers. Now keep in mind these are "grey" areas where the Scriptures are not clear on what is premitable and what is not, some areas are very black and white and should be dealt with differently.

I personally do not like "Gaither" music or that "old timey" quartet stuff, that is my opinion and preference. Does that make it a "doctrine" that all believers should adhere to? Nope. As much as some do not want to admit it, the same goes for Christian rock.

[jenptcfan]

Sometimes I like to listen to songs from when I was a kid, but most of the time I don't have the taste for them anymore. I may however listen to country, as it seems in between the "why don't we get drunk and laid" songs, there are actually quite a few Christian themed songs(I love you this much, long black train, If I were Jesus...etc). So there has to be some sort of filtering I guess.

I used to like Ozzy, AC-DC, BlackSabbath, etc..., but to be quite honest I couldn't possibly listen to them today my conscience wont let me. That is just me though.

What I do wish for is some better CCM out there. I have only found a handful of bands that I like: Petra, Across the Sky (http://www.acrossthesky.com/), Gaither Vocal band, and I still like the Imperials, Sweet Comfort Band, Andre Crouch, and Dallas Holm... There are some pretty good and free(and legal) I might add songs on the net in various places like: Grassroots Music (http://www.grassrootsmusic.com/mp3/)or Paste Music (http://www.pastemusic.com/radio/mp3/default.asp)

To me, I just as soon stay away from some of the secular bands and such as they don't line up with my values anymore. I can't associate myself with the desperation that is sometimes heard in songs like I used to.

Just my opinion folks, spare me the eggs if you don't mind.
No eggs! ;) It seems like you have a very balanced view of the matter and that you're sensitive to God's leading in this facet of your life (without judging anyone else!). I think that's great!

[theseed]

Where's my brown eggs???!!!! ^_^

[SumTinWong]

That's where I think the whole disconnect is coming from. I agree. If I am at a different place and walk than you who am I to drag you down to my level or pull you up for that matter? That is between you, God, and your personal walk with Him. It isn't for me to say where you should be. Maybe by example you will see what I do and ask me. But for me to bully anyone to believe anything, just never works. Ask all the people that chose death during "forced" conversions in history. I don't see anything in the Bible that prohibits "christian" rock, so why should anyone tell you that it isn't of God?

Did God, give the people the talent to play the instruments? Well according to the Bible anything that is good comes from God, right? So if a talent or a gift is God given what gives anyone the right to pigeon hole someone into using that gift that may not reflect what God has put on their hearts? Seems to me like playing God. That is His job, and He aint looking for part time help.

Lollard you admit this is your opinion, which is great. According to Romans 14, if a person does not like something that is fine for them but the problem comes when this dislike moves from an opinon and personal preference to a "must do" that is imposed on other believers. Now keep in mind these are "grey" areas where the Scriptures are not clear on what is premitable and what is not, some areas are very black and white and should be dealt with differently. You and I could sing a duet(two more and we could have the Stamps Quartet). I echo what you just said, that was great. I am not arrogant enough to think I have the answers for my own self, let alone anyone else :)

I personally do not like "Gaither" music or that "old timey" quartet stuff, that is my opinion and preference. Does that make it a "doctrine" that all believers should adhere to? Nope. As much as some do not want to admit it, the same goes for Christian rock. This is my opinion (that word again) on Christian Rock(and it really isn't original I heard it from someone else, but I have adopted it as my own).

There really is no such thing as "bad music". The lyrics might be subject to discussion, but the music itself is innocent. That is the way I see it.

Besides doesn't the Bible say make a joyful noise unto the Lord (psalm 100)? Heck half the songs in our hymnals sound like funeral processions, not joyful noises.

Rock on dude ;)