Question.

[IgnatiusOfAntioch]

There has been a lot of discussion in other areas in CF and I realized that I don't know the Lutheran perspective on this.

Do you believe that once you are saved that can never be condemned for your sins or fall away?

I think the doctrine is called Once Saved, Always Saved. Is this a doctrine that most Lutherans believe in?

[DaRev]

There has been a lot of discussion in other areas in CF and I realized that I don't know the Lutheran perspective on this.

Do you believe that once you are saved that can never be condemned for your sins or fall away?

I think the doctrine is called Once Saved, Always Saved. Is this a doctrine that most Lutherans believe in?

No. There are numerous passages in Scripture that indicate that one can indeed fall away from the faith and lose their salvation.

1 Corinthians 10:12, "Therefore let him who thinks he stands take heed lest he fall."

Hebrews 2:1-3, "For this reason we must pay much closer attention to what we have heard, lest we drift away from it. For if the word spoken through angels proved unalterable, and every transgression and disobedience received a just recompense, how shall we escape if we neglect so great a salvation?

2 Peter 3:17, "You therefore, beloved, since you know thisbeforehand, beware lest you also fall from your own steadfastness, being led away with the error of the wicked."


OSAS is not at all Biblical.

[Philothei]

I am glad to see that you do not... Athough you do believe in predestination... or you are not? Because ultimately it has to do with been predetermined....

Is it not?

Philothei

[DaRev]

Scripture tells us that some are predestined to salvation (election), but no one is predestined to damnation. God is not the cause of our damnation. We are responsible for that.

[Philothei]

Can I ask how you justify both? Election is universal...since the message is universal... so ...that would mean that not all called are 'chosen' because of free will... thus as you said ... damnation is one's choice rather God's punishment...

Just asking do not wish to debate here... I know this is your congregtion forum folks...

Philothei

[Jim47]

Justification is universal, election is not. Sorry but I don't have time to look up the exact wording of the scriptures.

[CaliforniaJosiah]

There has been a lot of discussion in other areas in CF and I realized that I don't know the Lutheran perspective on this.

Do you believe that once you are saved that can never be condemned for your sins or fall away?

I think the doctrine is called Once Saved, Always Saved. Is this a doctrine that most Lutherans believe in?


As I understand it, here's the Lutheran position:


Gospel:


Romans 8:29-39, For those God foreknew he also predestined to be conformed to the likeness of his Son, that he might be the firstborn among many brothers. And those he predestined, he also called; those he called, he also justified; those he justified, he also glorified. What, then, shall we say in response to this? If God is for us, who can be against us? He who did not spare his own Son, but gave him up for us all--how will he not also, along with him, graciously give us all things? Who will bring any charge against those whom God has chosen? It is God who justifies. Who is he that condemns? Christ Jesus, who died--more than that, who was raised to life--is at the right hand of God and is also interceding for us. Who shall separate us from the love of Christ? Shall trouble or hardship or persecution or famine or nakedness or danger or sword? As it is written: "For your sake we face death all day long; we are considered as sheep to be slaughtered." No, in all these things we are more than conquerors through him who loved us. For I am convinced that neither death nor life, neither angels nor demons, neither the present nor the future, nor any powers, neither height nor depth, nor anything else in all creation, will be able to separate us from the love of God that is in Christ Jesus our Lord.

John 3:16, "For God so loved the world that he gave his one and only Son, that whoever believes in him shall not perish but have eternal life. "

Mark 13:22, "For false Christs and false prophets will appear and perform signs and miracles to deceive the elect--if that were possible.

John 4:14, "but whoever drinks the water I give him will never thirst. Indeed, the water I give him will become in him a spring of water welling up to eternal life."

John 20:28, I give them eternal life, and they shall never perish; no one can snatch them out of my hand.

1 Thess. 5:24, "The one who calls you is faithful and he will do it.

Hebrews 10:14, "because by one sacrifice he has made perfect forever those who are being made holy.

Rev. 3:5, "I will never blot out his name from the book of life, but will acknowledge his name before my Father and his angels."



Law:

John 15:4-7, "Remain in me, and I will remain in you... If anyone does not remain in me, he is like a branch that is thrown away and withers; such branches are picked up, thrown into the fire and burned."

Rev. 2:10, "Be faithful, even to the point of death, and I will give you the crown of life.

Matthew 10:22, "He who stands firm to the end will be saved."

1 Timothy 4:1, "The Spirit clearly says that in later times some will abandon the faith and follow deceiving spirits and things taught by demons."

Luke 8:13, "They believe for a while, but in the time of testing they fall away."

John 8:31, "If you hold to my teaching, you are really My disciples."

Luke 21:19, "By standing firm you will gain life."

Hebrews 8:9, "They did not remain faithful to My covenant, and I turned away from them"

Gal. 5:4, "You who are trying to be justified by law have been alienated from Christ; you have fallen away from grace."

Col. 1:23, "If you continue in your faith, established and firm, not moved from the hope held out in the gospel."

Hebrews 10:26, "If we deliberately keep on sinning after we have received the knowledge of the truth, no sacrifice for sins is left, but only a fearful expectation of judgment and of raging fire that will consume the enemies of God."

2 Peter 1:8-10, "But if anyone does not have them, he is nearsighted and blind, and has forgotten that he has been cleansed from his past sins. Therefore, my brothers, be all the more eager to make your calling and election sure."

2 Peter 3:17, "Be on your guard so that you may not be carried away by the error of lawless men and fall from your secure position."

Rev. 3:5, He who overcomes will, like them, be dressed in white.

Luke 12:8, "He who disowns Me before men will be disowned before the angels of God."


Lutherans accept ALL these Scriptures. Just as they are. With no attempts to disregard any or "explain" any in light of any other.

The Law is applied where the Law is needed.
The Gospel is applied where the Gospel is needed.
All while affirming Sola Gratia/Solus Christus/Sola Fide.





I hope that helps.


Pax


- Josiah
(....back!)




.

[DaRev]

Can I ask how you justify both? Election is universal...since the message is universal... so ...that would mean that not all called are 'chosen' because of free will... thus as you said ... damnation is one's choice rather God's punishment...

Just asking do not wish to debate here... I know this is your congregtion forum folks...

Philothei

God's gift of faith and salvation is given to all. All have ownership of it. Those who acknowledge this once they are made aware by the preaching of the Gospel are saved. Their acknowledgement of it is passive on their part. Those who actively reject this gift are lost, as are those who have yet to hear the Gospel (Romans 10:13-17).

We have no free will in spiritual matters. We are conceived and born sinful and therefore are spiritually stillborn.

[LutheranChick]

God does not explain everything to us- There are no verses in Scripture that says why God chooses some and not others. And because there is no answer in the Bible, we are not to speculate. I believe Martin Luther said something to the effect of "A good theologian knows when to say I don't know."

[Philothei]

Their acknowledgement of it is passive on their part. Those who actively reject this gift are lost, as are those who have yet to hear the Gospel (Romans 10:13-17).


can you describe to me how it is possible for the acknowledgment to be passive ... and the rejection active? I really do not understand what you mean by that.... :scratch:

[Philothei]

God does not explain everything to us- There are no verses in Scripture that says why God chooses some and not others. And because there is no answer in the Bible, we are not to speculate. I believe Martin Luther said something to the effect of "A good theologian knows when to say I don't know."
Then you would be better to say that we do not KNOW who is saved or not?

[DaRev]

Their acknowledgement of it is passive on their part. Those who actively reject this gift are lost, as are those who have yet to hear the Gospel (Romans 10:13-17).

can you describe to me how it is possible for the acknowledgment to be passive ... and the rejection active? I really do not understand what you mean by that.... :scratch:

Our faith, our ability to believe in Jesus, is a gift given to us by God. We don't ask for it, we don't work for it, we simply acknowledge it as such. Even the ability to acknowledge it is born in us by God through His Holy Spirit, so it is not active on our part. It is done to us and for us by God, thus it is passive on our part.

Our unbelief, our rejection of this gift of God is indeed active on our part. Our rejection of faith and salvation is not born in us by God, it is something that humans do on their own. Thus our damnation is active on our part.

God saves us. He alone is the cause of our salvation. We damn ourselves. We alone are the cause of our damnation.

Then you would be better to say that we do not KNOW who is saved or not?

The Scriptures tell us that "all who call on the name of the Lord will be saved." Those who have faith in Christ are saved. Those who reject Christ are damned.

[LutheranChick]

Then you would be better to say that we do not KNOW who is saved or not?

If you are asking, can we judge who is going to heaven and who is not- no... but...

If a person confesses that they believe that Jesus Christ has died for their sins they are saved. Of course we cannot see into people's hearts to know absolutely for sure that they really believe this but if one 'talks the talk and walks the walk' it you can be pretty sure they believe, and are saved.

As far as who is not saved- again we cannot judge individuals because we cannot read their hearts - although we can probably get a pretty good idea by what they publicly confess or by the life that they live. However, even if a person does not appear to be saved, that does not mean they cannot be saved. Therefore we are to do as God has commanded and spread the Gospel everywhere, to all people.

[IgnatiusOfAntioch]

There has been a lot of discussion in other areas in CF and I realized that I don't know the Lutheran perspective on this.

Do you believe that once you are saved that can never be condemned for your sins or fall away?

I think the doctrine is called Once Saved, Always Saved. Is this a doctrine that most Lutherans believe in?


Here is one of those discussions over in Soteriology. It has an interesting Poll associated with it. http://christianforums.com/t6796382-poll-perseverance-of-the-saints.html

[Philothei]

Thanks you guys that answered my questions.

[DaRev]

Thanks you guys that answered my questions.

Any time. :)

[LutheranChick]

Thanks you guys that answered my questions.
You are most welcome!