On the Sabbath

[Knightwolflord]

Hi. I posted this on CARM's Messianic board when I was accused of not following the Commandments of God since I worship on Sunday. I thought it might be interesting to see the responses I get here. Thanks:

Let us look at the OT first: "In the beginning, when God created the heavens and the earth" (Gen. 1:1 (http://biblegateway.com/cgi-bin/bible?language=english&version=NASB&passage=Gen.+1%3A1)). The Bible implies that God’s Creation is perfect because he rested on the seventh day thus in a sense he accomplished what he desired to finish. Now, as I understand it, the Jews have a concept that the number seven is the perfect number. This historically has developed from the creation story as well as from the Sabbath. The notion that seven is the perfect number is further strengthened by the structure in the text of Genesis. In Hebrew Genesis 1:1 (http://biblegateway.com/cgi-bin/bible?language=english&version=NASB&passage=Genesis+1%3A1) has seven words and the second verse fourteen. Three nouns ("God," "heavens," and "earth") occur in the first verse and are repeated in the story in numbers divisible by seven: "God" thirty-five times; "earth" twenty-one times; and "heavens" twenty-one times. Now this is particularly significant that the seventh and last section (Gen. 2:2 (http://biblegateway.com/cgi-bin/bible?language=english&version=NASB&passage=Gen.+2%3A2)–3) which deals with the seventh day has in Hebrew three consecutive sentences (three for emphasis), each of which consists of seven words and contains in the middle the expression "the seventh day."

I assume you are a Sabbatarian. From my experience as a Messianic myself, I know that you would argue that God’s rest on the seventh day—since God obviously did not need to rest—was setting an example for man. However the word "Sabbath" is not found in Genesis and furthermore we do not see Adam and Eve resting. Even more interestingly, in Eden God provided everything needed for the happiness of Adam and Eve and there was no work for them to do. The Bible teaches that work entered into the world only as a part of the curse of sin: "Because you . . . have eaten from the tree . . . by the sweat of your face you shall eat bread" (Gen. 3:17 (http://biblegateway.com/cgi-bin/bible?language=english&version=NASB&passage=Gen.+3%3A17)–19). Before their sin, Adam and Eve were in God’s perpetual rest and fellowship; thus any observance of a Sabbath would have been superfluous.

Now, I believe that a more likely reason behind God’s seventh-day rest may be seen in a recurring theme of the creation story: "And there was evening and there was morning, a second day" (Gen. 1:5 (http://biblegateway.com/cgi-bin/bible?language=english&version=NASB&passage=Gen.+1%3A5)). Here we have a pattern that is repeated for the first six days but missing on the seventh day, suggesting that God’s rest was not to establish one day per week of rest (though it did foreshadow the Sabbath), but to institute a time of perpetual rest and open fellowship with Himself. In sanctifying the seventh day (Gen. 2:3 (http://biblegateway.com/cgi-bin/bible?language=english&version=NASB&passage=Gen.+2%3A3)) God sanctified his creation. He had made the perfect world and he blessed it. This goes along with the Hebraic notions of the perfection of seven.

So, we are then led to the next question: when then was Sabbath instituted? For the answer we must go to Exodus 16:23 (http://biblegateway.com/cgi-bin/bible?language=english&version=NASB&passage=Exodus+16%3A23)–24: "Moses told [the Israelites], ‘That is what the Lord prescribed. Tomorrow is a day of complete rest, the Sabbath, sacred to the Lord. You may either bake or boil the manna as you please; but what ever is left put away and keep for the morrow.’" Here we see that the first mention of Sabbath is in connection with the manna.

Sabbatical law is further restated in the Decalogue: "Remember the Sabbath day, to keep it holy. Six days you shall labor and do all your work; but the seventh day is a Sabbath to the Lord your God; in it you shall not do any work . . . for in six days the Lord had made heaven and earth, the sea, and all that is in them, and rested the seventh day; therefore the Lord blessed the Sabbath day and made it holy" (Ex. 20:8 (http://biblegateway.com/cgi-bin/bible?language=english&version=NASB&passage=Ex.+20%3A8)–11). Now back in Genesis, God blessed the seventh day and made it holy; in Exodus God blessed the Sabbath day and made it holy. I know from my days as a Messianic, that this verse of Exodus has been used to suggest that the Sabbath was instituted at the time of creation. However if God’s rest on the seventh day is viewed as the beginning of a time of perpetual rest and fellowship with man, this Exodus passage can be seen as ironic: The Sabbath was merely an infinitesimal reminder of what man would have enjoyed had Adam not sinned.

Now we go on to see that there was a list of activities that were forbidden on the Sabbath: Do not go out of your place (Ex. 16:19 (http://biblegateway.com/cgi-bin/bible?language=english&version=NASB&passage=Ex.+16%3A19)); do not bake or boil (Ex. 16:23 (http://biblegateway.com/cgi-bin/bible?language=english&version=NASB&passage=Ex.+16%3A23)); do not do any work (Ex. 20:10 (http://biblegateway.com/cgi-bin/bible?language=english&version=NASB&passage=Ex.+20%3A10)); do not build a fire (Ex. 35:1,3 (http://biblegateway.com/cgi-bin/bible?language=english&version=NASB&passage=Ex.+35%3A1)); do not carry a load (Jer. 17:27 (http://biblegateway.com/cgi-bin/bible?language=english&version=NASB&passage=Jer.+17%3A27), Neh. 1:15 (http://biblegateway.com/cgi-bin/bible?language=english&version=NASB&passage=Neh.+1%3A15)); do not buy or sell (Neh. 10:31 (http://biblegateway.com/cgi-bin/bible?language=english&version=NASB&passage=Neh.+10%3A31)); and do not do your own pleasure (Isa. 58:13 (http://biblegateway.com/cgi-bin/bible?language=english&version=NASB&passage=Isa.+58%3A13)–14). Rather on the Sabbath one should keep the day holy (Ex. 20:8 (http://biblegateway.com/cgi-bin/bible?language=english&version=NASB&passage=Ex.+20%3A8)); rest (Ex 31:15 (http://biblegateway.com/cgi-bin/bible?language=english&version=NASB&passage=Ex+31%3A15)); observe or celebrate the day (Ex. 31:16 (http://biblegateway.com/cgi-bin/bible?language=english&version=NASB&passage=Ex.+31%3A16)); and delight in the Lord (Isa. 58:14 (http://biblegateway.com/cgi-bin/bible?language=english&version=NASB&passage=Isa.+58%3A14)). The Sabbatical laws given to the Israelites told them how to behave very much as Adam and Eve behaved in Eden. It is also interesting to consider that nearly all the prohibitions given in connection with the Sabbath would have been meaningless to Adam and Eve on that first seventh day before sin entered the world.

TO BE CONTINUED....................

[Knightwolflord]

Now that that’s out of the way, let’s take a look at the Sabbath in the NT. Even though the Gospels report that Jesus observed the Sabbath, there are several incidents where he is accused of violating Sabbatical law (John 9:16, John 7:23, Mark 3:4 (http://biblegateway.com/cgi-bin/bible?language=english&version=NASB&passage=Mark+3%3A4)). It is also interesting that in various passages Jesus restates all of the Decalogue except for one commandment: "And Jesus replied, You shall not kill, you shall not commit adultery, you shall not steal, you shall not bear false witness, honor your father and mother, and you shall love your neighbor as yourself" (Mat. 19:18–19). "It is written: ‘The Lord your God shall you worship, and him alone shall you serve’" (Mat. 4:10). Finally, "But I say to you, do not swear at all; not by heaven, for it is God’s throne" (Mat. 5:34). Now, what is the commandment Jesus didn’t restate? To keep holy the Sabbath.

Now, Jesus defends his disciples when the Jews rebuked them for not observing the Sabbath, ending his comments by saying: "For the Son of Man is lord of the Sabbath" (Mat. 12:1 (http://biblegateway.com/cgi-bin/bible?language=english&version=NASB&passage=Mat.+12%3A1)–8). Or again, "The Sabbath was made for man, not man for the Sabbath" (Mark 2:27). The fact that Jesus rebukes too severe an interpretation of Sabbath law (Luke 13:10–16, 14:1–5; John. 5:9–18, 7:22) suggests that the he was not pleased with the way that the Sabbath was being observed by the Jewish authorities. This will be crucial to our next discussion.

When I was a Messianic we would argue that the Lord observed the Sabbath and we should imitate Christ in this. However this reasoning, fails to not that Jesus was still under the old covenant when he observed the Sabbath (Gal. 4:4 (http://biblegateway.com/cgi-bin/bible?language=english&version=NASB&passage=Gal.+4%3A4)). Indeed, Jesus perfectly observed the Sabbath as he did all of the old covenant laws. However, after he set forth a new covenant at the Last Supper, his emphasis seems to be on Sundays. Sunday was the day he was found to have been resurrected, and his first two appearance to the twelve disciples were on the following two Sundays (Jphn 20:19, 20:26). Again, five weeks later—on Sunday—the Holy Spirit descended on the apostles.

Throughout the book of Acts, Luke reports mass conversions of the Jews in Jerusalem, and notes that many were devout Jews and priests (Acts 2:5,41 (http://biblegateway.com/cgi-bin/bible?language=english&version=NASB&passage=Acts+2%3A5); 6:7) who remained "zealous for the law" (Acts 21:20 (http://biblegateway.com/cgi-bin/bible?language=english&version=NASB&passage=Acts+21%3A20)). There is no suggestion in NT that these devout Christianized Jews gave up Sabbath worship. The church in Asia, with Paul as its teacher, was confronted by Jewish-Christians who insisted that new Christians be circumcised as Old Testament law commanded. The disciples met in Jerusalem in the year 49 to resolve this matter. At that Council of Jerusalem (Acts 15:10 (http://biblegateway.com/cgi-bin/bible?language=english&version=NASB&passage=Acts+15%3A10)–21), Peter, James, and the other apostles set aside the law of circumcision, a law that was a sign of God’s covenantal relationship with the chosen people and which was an "everlasting pact " (Gen. 17:13 (http://biblegateway.com/cgi-bin/bible?language=english&version=NASB&passage=Gen.+17%3A13)). While there was much debate in Jerusalem on whether or not Gentile Christians should be exempted from circumcision, the council was silent on the matter of Sabbath worship; this suggests that Sabbath versus Sunday worship was not an issue at that time.

Now historically around the year 60, circumstantial evidence suggests that the Roman church began to worship on Sunday. For instance, in the year 50 the Christian church in Rome was considered to be a sect of Judaism; fourteen years later these same Christians were clearly understood to be distinct from the Jews. (Nero blamed the Christians for the fires in Rome in 64.) That such a sharp change could occur in this short span of time suggests that there was a significant external difference in the practices of the two faiths. The change of Christian worship from Sabbath to Sunday would certainly have allowed for this distinction.

The Council of Jerusalem’s decision on circumcision may have changed the way the early Church viewed Sabbath as well. One can almost hear the discussions of the Gentile Christians of the time: "Did not the Council of Jerusalem set aside the ‘everlasting’ law of circumcision? Should not the Church then set aside the other old covenant law—the Sabbath law?" Jewish Christians, similarly. would have questioned how many of the old covenant Sabbath regulations applied under the new covenant, for Sabbath rules were vast in number and varied from one rabbi to the next. Thus in the era following the Jerusalem Council it seems a little hard to believe that the apostles were not asked about the observance of the Sabbath.

It is not surprising then to find several New Testament comments addressing this matter. Let us begin with Colossians 2:17 (http://biblegateway.com/cgi-bin/bible?language=english&version=NASB&passage=Colossians+2%3A17)–19: "Therefore let no one pass judgment on you in regard to food or drink or in respect to a festival or a new moon or a Sabbath day—things which are a mere shadow of what is to come, but the substance belongs to Christ." This verse has been vigorously debated. What is meant by "Sabbath day"? How are we to understand "Let no man judge you"?

The Old Testament usage of the terms listed in Colossians 2:16 ("festival," "new moon," and "Sabbath") make clear beyond question that Paul is referring to the weekly Sabbath. In the Old Testament, Sabbath convocations—that is, the list of Sabbaths (days), new moons (months), and fixed festivals (seasons)—were listed in ascending or descending order. The ascending order of 1 Chronicles 23:31 (http://biblegateway.com/cgi-bin/bible?language=english&version=NASB&passage=1+Chronicles+23%3A31)—". . . and whenever burnt offerings are offered to the Lord on Sabbaths, new moons, and feast days, according to the number required of them"—is echoed in 2 Chronicles 2:4, 8 (http://biblegateway.com/cgi-bin/bible?language=english&version=NASB&passage=2+Chronicles+2%3A4):12–13, and 31:3; whereas a descending order—"And it shall be the prince’s part to provide the burnt offerings, the grain offering, and the drink offerings, at the feasts, on the new moons, and on the Sabbaths, as all the appointed feasts of the house of Israel"—is used in 1 Chronicles 23:31 (http://biblegateway.com/cgi-bin/bible?language=english&version=NASB&passage=1+Chronicles+23%3A31). In Colossians 2:16 (http://biblegateway.com/cgi-bin/bible?language=english&version=NASB&passage=Colossians+2%3A16)–17 Paul uses the same structure as the Old Testament writers, allowing us to be sure that he is writing about not only the yearly and seasonal Sabbaths, but also about the weekly Sabbath.

When Paul writes "Let no one pass judgment on you," the text suggests that the ones who were doing the judging were the Jewish Christians who were practicing the old covenant convocations and other dietary aberrations of Christianity. Finally, Paul writes that the Sabbath is a shadow of things to come, and that the substance is in Christ. It is clear from this text that Paul, like the Old Testament writers, considered all the Old Testament convocations as inseparable; indeed, in saying that all three are a mere shadow of things to come, he makes no distinction between the first two terms and the third. Paul concludes that the reality lies in Christ. The Greek literally reads: "but the body is of Christ," meaning that all of our lives and all of our energies need to be submitted to Christ who is ever present to us and that the old covenant convocations such as the Sabbath are no longer binding.

In Paul’s letter to the Romans, written around 57–58, he says, "For one person considers one day more important than another, while another person considers all days alike. Let everyone be fully persuaded in his own mind. Whoever observes the day observes it to the Lord" (Romans 14:5–6). The apostle is speaking here about the day which is being observed to the Lord, i.e., the day of worship. He notes that this is up to each person to decide. It must be noted, however, that Paul does not specifically mention the Sabbath here.

From these texts it seems clear that Paul considered Sabbath observance a matter of personal conviction that was not important in itself. Moreover, since Paul was presumably responding to the churches in Colossae, Galatia, and Rome about matters which concerned them, it seems clear that some Christians were worshiping on days other that Sabbath in Rome and in Asia Minor around 54–58.

Around the years 80–90, Christians were thrown out of the synagogues. This may have provided further stimulus for Christians to change their worship from Sabbath to Sunday. The apostle John wrote his gospel in this same time frame, significant because it provided for Christians an explanation of how God could change an "everlasting" law. John wrote how the world had been symbolically created anew in Jesus. One implication of this is that with the passion, death, and resurrection of Christ one eternity had ended and another had begun. God could therefore abrogate an everlasting law and still not contradict himself.

Again this is my perspective based on the Bible and my studies in historical matters. Thanks for giving me this opportunity. :blush:

[Texasbluebonnet]

Now that that’s out of the way, let’s take a look at the Sabbath in the NT. Even though the Gospels report that Jesus observed the Sabbath, there are several incidents where he is accused of violating Sabbatical law (John 9:16, John 7:23, Mark 3:4 (http://biblegateway.com/cgi-bin/bible?language=english&version=NASB&passage=Mark+3%3A4)). It is also interesting that in various passages Jesus restates all of the Decalogue except for one commandment: "And Jesus replied, You shall not kill, you shall not commit adultery, you shall not steal, you shall not bear false witness, honor your father and mother, and you shall love your neighbor as yourself" (Mat. 19:18–19). "It is written: ‘The Lord your God shall you worship, and him alone shall you serve’" (Mat. 4:10). Finally, "But I say to you, do not swear at all; not by heaven, for it is God’s throne" (Mat. 5:34). Now, what is the commandment Jesus didn’t restate? To keep holy the Sabbath.

Now, Jesus defends his disciples when the Jews rebuked them for not observing the Sabbath, ending his comments by saying: "For the Son of Man is lord of the Sabbath" (Mat. 12:1 (http://biblegateway.com/cgi-bin/bible?language=english&version=NASB&passage=Mat.+12%3A1)–8). Or again, "The Sabbath was made for man, not man for the Sabbath" (Mark 2:27). The fact that Jesus rebukes too severe an interpretation of Sabbath law (Luke 13:10–16, 14:1–5; John. 5:9–18, 7:22) suggests that the he was not pleased with the way that the Sabbath was being observed by the Jewish authorities. This will be crucial to our next discussion.

When I was a Messianic we would argue that the Lord observed the Sabbath and we should imitate Christ in this. However this reasoning, fails to not that Jesus was still under the old covenant when he observed the Sabbath (Gal. 4:4 (http://biblegateway.com/cgi-bin/bible?language=english&version=NASB&passage=Gal.+4%3A4)). Indeed, Jesus perfectly observed the Sabbath as he did all of the old covenant laws. However, after he set forth a new covenant at the Last Supper, his emphasis seems to be on Sundays. Sunday was the day he was found to have been resurrected, and his first two appearance to the twelve disciples were on the following two Sundays (Jphn 20:19, 20:26). Again, five weeks later—on Sunday—the Holy Spirit descended on the apostles.

Throughout the book of Acts, Luke reports mass conversions of the Jews in Jerusalem, and notes that many were devout Jews and priests (Acts 2:5,41 (http://biblegateway.com/cgi-bin/bible?language=english&version=NASB&passage=Acts+2%3A5); 6:7) who remained "zealous for the law" (Acts 21:20 (http://biblegateway.com/cgi-bin/bible?language=english&version=NASB&passage=Acts+21%3A20)). There is no suggestion in NT that these devout Christianized Jews gave up Sabbath worship. The church in Asia, with Paul as its teacher, was confronted by Jewish-Christians who insisted that new Christians be circumcised as Old Testament law commanded. The disciples met in Jerusalem in the year 49 to resolve this matter. At that Council of Jerusalem (Acts 15:10 (http://biblegateway.com/cgi-bin/bible?language=english&version=NASB&passage=Acts+15%3A10)–21), Peter, James, and the other apostles set aside the law of circumcision, a law that was a sign of God’s covenantal relationship with the chosen people and which was an "everlasting pact " (Gen. 17:13 (http://biblegateway.com/cgi-bin/bible?language=english&version=NASB&passage=Gen.+17%3A13)). While there was much debate in Jerusalem on whether or not Gentile Christians should be exempted from circumcision, the council was silent on the matter of Sabbath worship; this suggests that Sabbath versus Sunday worship was not an issue at that time.

Now historically around the year 60, circumstantial evidence suggests that the Roman church began to worship on Sunday. For instance, in the year 50 the Christian church in Rome was considered to be a sect of Judaism; fourteen years later these same Christians were clearly understood to be distinct from the Jews. (Nero blamed the Christians for the fires in Rome in 64.) That such a sharp change could occur in this short span of time suggests that there was a significant external difference in the practices of the two faiths. The change of Christian worship from Sabbath to Sunday would certainly have allowed for this distinction.

The Council of Jerusalem’s decision on circumcision may have changed the way the early Church viewed Sabbath as well. One can almost hear the discussions of the Gentile Christians of the time: "Did not the Council of Jerusalem set aside the ‘everlasting’ law of circumcision? Should not the Church then set aside the other old covenant law—the Sabbath law?" Jewish Christians, similarly. would have questioned how many of the old covenant Sabbath regulations applied under the new covenant, for Sabbath rules were vast in number and varied from one rabbi to the next. Thus in the era following the Jerusalem Council it seems a little hard to believe that the apostles were not asked about the observance of the Sabbath.

It is not surprising then to find several New Testament comments addressing this matter. Let us begin with Colossians 2:17 (http://biblegateway.com/cgi-bin/bible?language=english&version=NASB&passage=Colossians+2%3A17)–19: "Therefore let no one pass judgment on you in regard to food or drink or in respect to a festival or a new moon or a Sabbath day—things which are a mere shadow of what is to come, but the substance belongs to Christ." This verse has been vigorously debated. What is meant by "Sabbath day"? How are we to understand "Let no man judge you"?

The Old Testament usage of the terms listed in Colossians 2:16 ("festival," "new moon," and "Sabbath") make clear beyond question that Paul is referring to the weekly Sabbath. In the Old Testament, Sabbath convocations—that is, the list of Sabbaths (days), new moons (months), and fixed festivals (seasons)—were listed in ascending or descending order. The ascending order of 1 Chronicles 23:31 (http://biblegateway.com/cgi-bin/bible?language=english&version=NASB&passage=1+Chronicles+23%3A31)—". . . and whenever burnt offerings are offered to the Lord on Sabbaths, new moons, and feast days, according to the number required of them"—is echoed in 2 Chronicles 2:4, 8 (http://biblegateway.com/cgi-bin/bible?language=english&version=NASB&passage=2+Chronicles+2%3A4):12–13, and 31:3; whereas a descending order—"And it shall be the prince’s part to provide the burnt offerings, the grain offering, and the drink offerings, at the feasts, on the new moons, and on the Sabbaths, as all the appointed feasts of the house of Israel"—is used in 1 Chronicles 23:31 (http://biblegateway.com/cgi-bin/bible?language=english&version=NASB&passage=1+Chronicles+23%3A31). In Colossians 2:16 (http://biblegateway.com/cgi-bin/bible?language=english&version=NASB&passage=Colossians+2%3A16)–17 Paul uses the same structure as the Old Testament writers, allowing us to be sure that he is writing about not only the yearly and seasonal Sabbaths, but also about the weekly Sabbath.

When Paul writes "Let no one pass judgment on you," the text suggests that the ones who were doing the judging were the Jewish Christians who were practicing the old covenant convocations and other dietary aberrations of Christianity. Finally, Paul writes that the Sabbath is a shadow of things to come, and that the substance is in Christ. It is clear from this text that Paul, like the Old Testament writers, considered all the Old Testament convocations as inseparable; indeed, in saying that all three are a mere shadow of things to come, he makes no distinction between the first two terms and the third. Paul concludes that the reality lies in Christ. The Greek literally reads: "but the body is of Christ," meaning that all of our lives and all of our energies need to be submitted to Christ who is ever present to us and that the old covenant convocations such as the Sabbath are no longer binding.

In Paul’s letter to the Romans, written around 57–58, he says, "For one person considers one day more important than another, while another person considers all days alike. Let everyone be fully persuaded in his own mind. Whoever observes the day observes it to the Lord" (Romans 14:5–6). The apostle is speaking here about the day which is being observed to the Lord, i.e., the day of worship. He notes that this is up to each person to decide. It must be noted, however, that Paul does not specifically mention the Sabbath here.

From these texts it seems clear that Paul considered Sabbath observance a matter of personal conviction that was not important in itself. Moreover, since Paul was presumably responding to the churches in Colossae, Galatia, and Rome about matters which concerned them, it seems clear that some Christians were worshiping on days other that Sabbath in Rome and in Asia Minor around 54–58.

Around the years 80–90, Christians were thrown out of the synagogues. This may have provided further stimulus for Christians to change their worship from Sabbath to Sunday. The apostle John wrote his gospel in this same time frame, significant because it provided for Christians an explanation of how God could change an "everlasting" law. John wrote how the world had been symbolically created anew in Jesus. One implication of this is that with the passion, death, and resurrection of Christ one eternity had ended and another had begun. God could therefore abrogate an everlasting law and still not contradict himself.

Again this is my perspective based on the Bible and my studies in historical matters. Thanks for giving me this opportunity. :blush:


That may be in regards to a partial reason for Christians wanting to change to Sunday, but Constantine was the one who made Christianity the religion of Rome in 313 and Sunday was changed as the offical day of worship by Constantine March 7, 321. Constantine being a sun worshipper and remained so till the day he died, and wasn't even baptised till he was on his death bed changed the day of worship to the day of sun god. He only made Christianity the offical religion of Rome in my opinion because it was politically advantageous for him to do so. The early Christians observed the Sabbath on Saturday but by the first half of the second century an increasing number of Christians would gather for worship on Sunday. Some continued to observe the Sabbath on Saturday , until even the crusader period. The practice was discouraged, but not suppressed. This is an interesting thread and I look forward to reading all of the posts.

[Colabomb]

That may be in regards to a partial reason for Christians wanting to change to Sunday, but Constantine was the one who made Christianity the religion of Rome in 313 and Sunday was changed as the offical day of worship by Constantine March 7, 321. Constantine being a sun worshipper and remained so till the day he died, and wasn't even baptised till he was on his death bed changed the day of worship to the day of sun god. He only made Christianity the offical religion of Rome in my opinion because it was politically advantageous for him to do so. The early Christians observed the Sabbath on Saturday but by the first half of the second century an increasing number of Christians would gather for worship on Sunday. Some continued to observe the Sabbath on Saturday , until even the crusader period. The practice was discouraged, but not suppressed. This is an interesting thread and I look forward to reading all of the posts.

Perhaps Constantine gave the believe legal status, however the Church honored Sunday (perhaps as sabbath perhaps not, the debate continues) LONG before Constantine.

Not EVERYTHING messianics are against can be blamed on constantine :P

Regardless, even if the Sabbath law is still in effect, it is in effect for those who it was given to, the Jews. We were never given a Sabbatical Law. We may choose to honor sabbath, but we are in no obligation to.

[Lulav]

Look inside your post here for some commentsHi. I posted this on CARM's Messianic board when I was accused of not following the Commandments of God since I worship on Sunday. I thought it might be interesting to see the responses I get here. Thanks:

Let us look at the OT first: "In the beginning, when God created the heavens and the earth" (Gen. 1:1 (http://biblegateway.com/cgi-bin/bible?language=english&version=NASB&passage=Gen.+1%3A1)). The Bible implies that God’s Creation is perfect because he rested on the seventh day thus in a sense he accomplished what he desired to finish. Now, as I understand it, the Jews have a concept that the number seven is the perfect number. This historically has developed from the creation story as well as from the Sabbath. The notion that seven is the perfect number is further strengthened by the structure in the text of Genesis. In Hebrew Genesis 1:1 (http://biblegateway.com/cgi-bin/bible?language=english&version=NASB&passage=Genesis+1%3A1) has seven words and the second verse fourteen. Three nouns ("God," "heavens," and "earth") occur in the first verse and are repeated in the story in numbers divisible by seven: "God" thirty-five times; "earth" twenty-one times; and "heavens" twenty-one times. Now this is particularly significant that the seventh and last section (Gen. 2:2 (http://biblegateway.com/cgi-bin/bible?language=english&version=NASB&passage=Gen.+2%3A2)–3) which deals with the seventh day has in Hebrew three consecutive sentences (three for emphasis), each of which consists of seven words and contains in the middle the expression "the seventh day."

I assume you are a Sabbatarian. From my experience as a Messianic myself, I know that you would argue that God’s rest on the seventh day—since God obviously did not need to rest—was setting an example for man.

It says he ceased from his work.


However the word "Sabbath" is not found in Genesis and furthermore we do not see Adam and Eve resting. Even more interestingly, in Eden God provided everything needed for the happiness of Adam and Eve and there was no work for them to do.

Genesis 2:15 explicitly says that G-d put the man in the garden to dress it and to keep it. That is a job, and a very labor intensive one if you've had any experience at it.

The Bible teaches that work entered into the world only as a part of the curse of sin: "Because you . . . have eaten from the tree . . . by the sweat of your face you shall eat bread" (Gen. 3:17 (http://biblegateway.com/cgi-bin/bible?language=english&version=NASB&passage=Gen.+3%3A17)–19). Before their sin, Adam and Eve were in God’s perpetual rest and fellowship; thus any observance of a Sabbath would have been superfluous.

No, that is not true, the curse was that he would have to toil for his food. In the garden it was tended, looked after, but outside it, it was a struggle to raise food, the bugs, the death , the dependence on the weather, all kinds of things. Now, I believe that a more likely reason behind God’s seventh-day rest may be seen in a recurring theme of the creation story: "And there was evening and there was morning, a second day" (Gen. 1:5 (http://biblegateway.com/cgi-bin/bible?language=english&version=NASB&passage=Gen.+1%3A5)). Here we have a pattern that is repeated for the first six days but missing on the seventh day, suggesting that God’s rest was not to establish one day per week of rest (though it did foreshadow the Sabbath), but to institute a time of perpetual rest and open fellowship with Himself. In sanctifying the seventh day (Gen. 2:3 (http://biblegateway.com/cgi-bin/bible?language=english&version=NASB&passage=Gen.+2%3A3)) God sanctified his creation. He had made the perfect world and he blessed it. This goes along with the Hebraic notions of the perfection of seven.

So, we are then led to the next question: when then was Sabbath instituted? For the answer we must go to Exodus 16:23 (http://biblegateway.com/cgi-bin/bible?language=english&version=NASB&passage=Exodus+16%3A23)–24: "Moses told [the Israelites], ‘That is what the Lord prescribed. Tomorrow is a day of complete rest, the Sabbath, sacred to the Lord. You may either bake or boil the manna as you please; but what ever is left put away and keep for the morrow.’" Here we see that the first mention of Sabbath is in connection with the manna.

Sabbatical law is further restated in the Decalogue: "Remember the Sabbath day, to keep it holy. Six days you shall labor and do all your work; but the seventh day is a Sabbath to the Lord your God; in it you shall not do any work . . . for in six days the Lord had made heaven and earth, the sea, and all that is in them, and rested the seventh day; therefore the Lord blessed the Sabbath day and made it holy" (Ex. 20:8 (http://biblegateway.com/cgi-bin/bible?language=english&version=NASB&passage=Ex.+20%3A8)–11). Now back in Genesis, God blessed the seventh day and made it holy; in Exodus God blessed the Sabbath day and made it holy. I know from my days as a Messianic, that this verse of Exodus has been used to suggest that the Sabbath was instituted at the time of creation. However if God’s rest on the seventh day is viewed as the beginning of a time of perpetual rest and fellowship with man, this Exodus passage can be seen as ironic: The Sabbath was merely an infinitesimal reminder of what man would have enjoyed had Adam not sinned.

Now we go on to see that there was a list of activities that were forbidden on the Sabbath: Do not go out of your place (Ex. 16:19 (http://biblegateway.com/cgi-bin/bible?language=english&version=NASB&passage=Ex.+16%3A19)); do not bake or boil (Ex. 16:23 (http://biblegateway.com/cgi-bin/bible?language=english&version=NASB&passage=Ex.+16%3A23)); do not do any work (Ex. 20:10 (http://biblegateway.com/cgi-bin/bible?language=english&version=NASB&passage=Ex.+20%3A10)); do not build a fire (Ex. 35:1,3 (http://biblegateway.com/cgi-bin/bible?language=english&version=NASB&passage=Ex.+35%3A1)); do not carry a load (Jer. 17:27 (http://biblegateway.com/cgi-bin/bible?language=english&version=NASB&passage=Jer.+17%3A27), Neh. 1:15 (http://biblegateway.com/cgi-bin/bible?language=english&version=NASB&passage=Neh.+1%3A15)); do not buy or sell (Neh. 10:31 (http://biblegateway.com/cgi-bin/bible?language=english&version=NASB&passage=Neh.+10%3A31)); and do not do your own pleasure (Isa. 58:13 (http://biblegateway.com/cgi-bin/bible?language=english&version=NASB&passage=Isa.+58%3A13)–14). Rather on the Sabbath one should keep the day holy (Ex. 20:8 (http://biblegateway.com/cgi-bin/bible?language=english&version=NASB&passage=Ex.+20%3A8)); rest (Ex 31:15 (http://biblegateway.com/cgi-bin/bible?language=english&version=NASB&passage=Ex+31%3A15)); observe or celebrate the day (Ex. 31:16 (http://biblegateway.com/cgi-bin/bible?language=english&version=NASB&passage=Ex.+31%3A16)); and delight in the Lord (Isa. 58:14 (http://biblegateway.com/cgi-bin/bible?language=english&version=NASB&passage=Isa.+58%3A14)). The Sabbatical laws given to the Israelites told them how to behave very much as Adam and Eve behaved in Eden. It is also interesting to consider that nearly all the prohibitions given in connection with the Sabbath would have been meaningless to Adam and Eve on that first seventh day before sin entered the world.

TO BE CONTINUED.................... Why would it be meaningless? They were celebrating with the creator the end of his creation, which was them in fact. :)

[Lulav]

Now that that’s out of the way, let’s take a look at the Sabbath in the NT. Even though the Gospels report that Jesus observed the Sabbath, there are several incidents where he is accused of violating Sabbatical law (John 9:16, John 7:23, Mark 3:4 (http://biblegateway.com/cgi-bin/bible?language=english&version=NASB&passage=Mark+3%3A4)).

No, he is accused of the Pharisaical interpretation. He never broke the Sabbath, if he had, he could not be Messiah, he would not be sinless.

It is also interesting that in various passages Jesus restates all of the Decalogue except for one commandment: "And Jesus replied, You shall not kill, you shall not commit adultery, you shall not steal, you shall not bear false witness, honor your father and mother, and you shall love your neighbor as yourself" (Mat. 19:18–19). "It is written: ‘The Lord your God shall you worship, and him alone shall you serve’" (Mat. 4:10). Finally, "But I say to you, do not swear at all; not by heaven, for it is God’s throne" (Mat. 5:34). Now, what is the commandment Jesus didn’t restate? To keep holy the Sabbath.

Doesn't that seem a bit odd to you? Don't you think it odd that those who he was talking to , didn't object? There are 10 commandments in the covenant G-d made with us, not nine. If he really left it out, someone would have noticed. I think the leaving out comes from elsewhere.

Now, Jesus defends his disciples when the Jews rebuked them for not observing the Sabbath, ending his comments by saying: "For the Son of Man is lord of the Sabbath" (Mat. 12:1 (http://biblegateway.com/cgi-bin/bible?language=english&version=NASB&passage=Mat.+12%3A1)–8). Or again, "The Sabbath was made for man, not man for the Sabbath" (Mark 2:27).

And he defended them with the story of David. As he said, the Sabbath was made for man, not the opposite. These men were hungry and they were going about their masters business, and he was going about his fathers, which is G-d. Would that he would let them go hungry? How much more a sin that a Judite would eat from the table of shewbread, not being a Levite? But the L-RD did not consider that a sin.

The fact that Jesus rebukes too severe an interpretation of Sabbath law (Luke 13:10–16, 14:1–5; John. 5:9–18, 7:22) suggests that the he was not pleased with the way that the Sabbath was being observed by the Jewish authorities. This will be crucial to our next discussion.

Maybe not, but that doesn't mean he annulled it.

When I was a Messianic we would argue that the Lord observed the Sabbath and we should imitate Christ in this. However this reasoning, fails to not that Jesus was still under the old covenant when he observed the Sabbath (Gal. 4:4 (http://biblegateway.com/cgi-bin/bible?language=english&version=NASB&passage=Gal.+4%3A4)). Indeed, Jesus perfectly observed the Sabbath as he did all of the old covenant laws. However, after he set forth a new covenant at the Last Supper, his emphasis seems to be on Sundays. Sunday was the day he was found to have been resurrected, and his first two appearance to the twelve disciples were on the following two Sundays (Jphn 20:19, 20:26). Again, five weeks later—on Sunday—the Holy Spirit descended on the apostles.

That is every Christians answer to why they don't have to keep G-ds commandments, at leas the ones that they don't find convenient, or dont' take anything from them. He was 'under' the old covenant?

So how do you interpret Isaiah 66? The L-RD is telling us of a future time when we shall all come before him to worship him on the Sabbath, not sunday.


Throughout the book of Acts, Luke reports mass conversions of the Jews in Jerusalem, and notes that many were devout Jews and priests (Acts 2:5,41 (http://biblegateway.com/cgi-bin/bible?language=english&version=NASB&passage=Acts+2%3A5); 6:7) who remained "zealous for the law" (Acts 21:20 (http://biblegateway.com/cgi-bin/bible?language=english&version=NASB&passage=Acts+21%3A20)). There is no suggestion in NT that these devout Christianized Jews gave up Sabbath worship.

Just how were they 'Christianized'? :scratch:

The church in Asia, with Paul as its teacher, was confronted by Jewish-Christians who insisted that new Christians be circumcised as Old Testament law commanded. The disciples met in Jerusalem in the year 49 to resolve this matter. At that Council of Jerusalem (Acts 15:10 (http://biblegateway.com/cgi-bin/bible?language=english&version=NASB&passage=Acts+15%3A10)–21), Peter, James, and the other apostles set aside the law of circumcision, a law that was a sign of God’s covenantal relationship with the chosen people and which was an "everlasting pact " (Gen. 17:13 (http://biblegateway.com/cgi-bin/bible?language=english&version=NASB&passage=Gen.+17%3A13)). While there was much debate in Jerusalem on whether or not Gentile Christians should be exempted from circumcision, the council was silent on the matter of Sabbath worship; this suggests that Sabbath versus Sunday worship was not an issue at that time.

What does one have to do with the other? Do you think there could even have been a congregation of Messianic Jews in Israel if they didn't keep the Sabbath? It would be very easy to spot. :)

Now historically around the year 60, circumstantial evidence suggests that the Roman church began to worship on Sunday. For instance, in the year 50 the Christian church in Rome was considered to be a sect of Judaism; fourteen years later these same Christians were clearly understood to be distinct from the Jews. (Nero blamed the Christians for the fires in Rome in 64.) That such a sharp change could occur in this short span of time suggests that there was a significant external difference in the practices of the two faiths. The change of Christian worship from Sabbath to Sunday would certainly have allowed for this distinction.

The Council of Jerusalem’s decision on circumcision may have changed the way the early Church viewed Sabbath as well. One can almost hear the discussions of the Gentile Christians of the time: "Did not the Council of Jerusalem set aside the ‘everlasting’ law of circumcision? Should not the Church then set aside the other old covenant law—the Sabbath law?"

The everlasting covenant was with G-ds people, those from Jacob, that was why it wasn't necessary for them to be circumcised, it was a covenant with Jews. The gentiles don't have to do that, but they did beforehand to become a convert to Judaism. But it wasn't necessary. But to say that they could just say that G-ds other covenant, which is the 10 words, you only have to follow 9 is ridicules. Why do they have to follow any of them then? You say that ' the other old covenant law' as if there were only two? :confused:


Jewish Christians, similarly. would have questioned how many of the old covenant Sabbath regulations applied under the new covenant, for Sabbath rules were vast in number and varied from one rabbi to the next. Thus in the era following the Jerusalem Council it seems a little hard to believe that the apostles were not asked about the observance of the Sabbath.

It is not surprising then to find several New Testament comments addressing this matter. Let us begin with Colossians 2:17 (http://biblegateway.com/cgi-bin/bible?language=english&version=NASB&passage=Colossians+2%3A17)–19: "Therefore let no one pass judgment on you in regard to food or drink or in respect to a festival or a new moon or a Sabbath day—things which are a mere shadow of what is to come, but the substance belongs to Christ." This verse has been vigorously debated. What is meant by "Sabbath day"? How are we to understand "Let no man judge you"?

The Old Testament usage of the terms listed in Colossians 2:16 ("festival," "new moon," and "Sabbath") make clear beyond question that Paul is referring to the weekly Sabbath. In the Old Testament, Sabbath convocations—that is, the list of Sabbaths (days), new moons (months), and fixed festivals (seasons)—were listed in ascending or descending order. The ascending order of 1 Chronicles 23:31 (http://biblegateway.com/cgi-bin/bible?language=english&version=NASB&passage=1+Chronicles+23%3A31)—". . . and whenever burnt offerings are offered to the Lord on Sabbaths, new moons, and feast days, according to the number required of them"—is echoed in 2 Chronicles 2:4, 8 (http://biblegateway.com/cgi-bin/bible?language=english&version=NASB&passage=2+Chronicles+2%3A4):12–13, and 31:3; whereas a descending order—"And it shall be the prince’s part to provide the burnt offerings, the grain offering, and the drink offerings, at the feasts, on the new moons, and on the Sabbaths, as all the appointed feasts of the house of Israel"—is used in 1 Chronicles 23:31 (http://biblegateway.com/cgi-bin/bible?language=english&version=NASB&passage=1+Chronicles+23%3A31). In Colossians 2:16 (http://biblegateway.com/cgi-bin/bible?language=english&version=NASB&passage=Colossians+2%3A16)–17 Paul uses the same structure as the Old Testament writers, allowing us to be sure that he is writing about not only the yearly and seasonal Sabbaths, but also about the weekly Sabbath.

When Paul writes "Let no one pass judgment on you," the text suggests that the ones who were doing the judging were the Jewish Christians who were practicing the old covenant convocations and other dietary aberrations of Christianity. Finally, Paul writes that the Sabbath is a shadow of things to come, and that the substance is in Christ. It is clear from this text that Paul, like the Old Testament writers, considered all the Old Testament convocations as inseparable; indeed, in saying that all three are a mere shadow of things to come, he makes no distinction between the first two terms and the third. Paul concludes that the reality lies in Christ. The Greek literally reads: "but the body is of Christ," meaning that all of our lives and all of our energies need to be submitted to Christ who is ever present to us and that the old covenant convocations such as the Sabbath are no longer binding.

In respect of a Holy day................In respect, in regarding you keeping it. In Colossians, Paul is speaking to a gentile church, which can be perceived form 1:12, it is also made clear in chapter 2 when he speaks of their circumcision, done by Messiah. He is speaking to them regarding other heathens who like many today, accuse those who follow the 'Jewish ways" and keep ' so called 'Jewish feasts' and the true Sabbath, about their practices. He was telling them to basicallly ignore them.

In Paul’s letter to the Romans, written around 57–58, he says, "For one person considers one day more important than another, while another person considers all days alike. Let everyone be fully persuaded in his own mind. Whoever observes the day observes it to the Lord" (Romans 14:5–6). The apostle is speaking here about the day which is being observed to the Lord, i.e., the day of worship.

How do you determine that? Some may think that Sabbath is more important, because it is the first of our holy convocations, others think all the feasts of the L-RD are equally important, no need to dispute that as they must have been.

He notes that this is up to each person to decide. It must be noted, however, that Paul does not specifically mention the Sabbath here.

From these texts it seems clear that Paul considered Sabbath observance a matter of personal conviction that was not important in itself. Moreover, since Paul was presumably responding to the churches in Colossae, Galatia, and Rome about matters which concerned them, it seems clear that some Christians were worshiping on days other that Sabbath in Rome and in Asia Minor around 54–58.

Clear from what text?

Around the years 80–90, Christians were thrown out of the synagogues. This may have provided further stimulus for Christians to change their worship from Sabbath to Sunday. The apostle John wrote his gospel in this same time frame, significant because it provided for Christians an explanation of how God could change an "everlasting" law. John wrote how the world had been symbolically created anew in Jesus. One implication of this is that with the passion, death, and resurrection of Christ one eternity had ended and another had begun. God could therefore abrogate an everlasting law and still not contradict himself.

Again this is my perspective based on the Bible and my studies in historical matters. Thanks for giving me this opportunity. :blush: If this is so then Yeshua lied when he said, that not one yod or title would pass from the law until ALL be fulfilled? All has not been fulfilled, has it?

[Lulav]

Perhaps Constantine gave the believe legal status, however the Church honored Sunday (perhaps as sabbath perhaps not, the debate continues) LONG before Constantine.

Not EVERYTHING messianics are against can be blamed on constantine :P

Regardless, even if the Sabbath law is still in effect, it is in effect for those who it was given to, the Jews. We were never given a Sabbatical Law. We may choose to honor sabbath, but we are in no obligation to. Then how do you honor your Creator? Or the one who brought you out of slavery?

[Henaynei]

Hi. I posted this on CARM's Messianic board when I was accused of not following the Commandments of G-d since I worship on Sunday. I thought it might be interesting to see the responses I get here. I'll reserve my opinion on this for the present

btw - you can keep Sunday as the day you worship and I am commanded not to insist you are a sinner or unsaved in so doing .... but if you also call Sunday the L-rd's Day, you are in error - still it is highly likely that is not a slavific issue :D

Ex 16:26 (http://bible.crosswalk.com/OnlineStudyBible/bible.cgi?passage=ex+16:26&version=kjv&showtools=yes) Six days ye shall gather it; but on the seventh day, which is the sabbath, in it there shall be none. Ex 16:29 (http://bible.crosswalk.com/OnlineStudyBible/bible.cgi?passage=ex+16:29&version=kjv&showtools=yes) See, for that the L-RD hath given you the sabbath, therefore he giveth you on the sixth day the bread of two days; abide ye every man in his place, let no man go out of his place on the seventh day.

Ex 16:30 (http://bible.crosswalk.com/OnlineStudyBible/bible.cgi?passage=ex+16:30&version=kjv&showtools=yes) So the people rested on the seventh day.

Ex 20:10 (http://bible.crosswalk.com/OnlineStudyBible/bible.cgi?passage=ex+20:10&version=kjv&showtools=yes) But the seventh day is the sabbath of the L-RD thy G-d: in it thou shalt not do any work, thou, nor thy son, nor thy daughter, thy manservant, nor thy maidservant, nor thy cattle, nor thy stranger that is within thy gates:

Ex 20:11 (http://bible.crosswalk.com/OnlineStudyBible/bible.cgi?passage=ex+20:11&version=kjv&showtools=yes) For in six days the L-RD made heaven and earth, the sea, and all that in them is, and rested the seventh day: wherefore the L-RD blessed the sabbath day, and hallowed it.I understand a bit of where the folks on the other board might be going with their comment - it is, after all, the 10 Commandments, not the 9 Suggestions ;)

I assume you are a Sabbatarian. From my experience as a Messianic myself, I know that you would argue that God’s rest on the seventh day—since G-d obviously did not need to rest—was setting an example for man. However the word "Sabbath" is not found in Genesis even the most rudimentary understanding of Hebrew answers this. The word Shabbat comes from the Hebrew word for seventh as the root.

The Hebrew word for seventh appears in 3 verses in Genesis - two of those verses are about the seventh day and G-d resting and setting it apart.
Ge 2:2 (http://bible.crosswalk.com/OnlineStudyBible/bible.cgi?passage=ge+2:2&version=kjv&showtools=yes) And on the seventh day God ended his work which he had made; and he rested on the seventh day from all his work which he had made.

Ge 2:3 (http://bible.crosswalk.com/OnlineStudyBible/bible.cgi?passage=ge+2:3&version=kjv&showtools=yes) And God blessed the seventh day, and sanctified it: because that in it he had rested from all his work which God created and made.

Ge 8:4 (http://bible.crosswalk.com/OnlineStudyBible/bible.cgi?passage=ge+8:4&version=kjv&showtools=yes) And the ark rested in the seventh month, on the seventeenth day of the month, upon the mountains of Ararat. Torah alone the Hebrew for Shabbat (sabbath (http://bible.crosswalk.com/Lexicons/Hebrew/heb.cgi?number=07676&version=kjv)) is used 37 times in 30 - seems to be something real and real important to G-d. verses. and furthermore we do not see Adam and Eve resting. Even more interestingly, in Eden G-d provided everything needed for the happiness of Adam and Eve and there was no work for them to do. The Bible teaches that work entered into the world only as a part of the curse of sin: "Because you . . . have eaten from the tree . . . by the sweat of your face you shall eat bread" (Gen. 3:17 (http://biblegateway.com/cgi-bin/bible?language=english&version=NASB&passage=Gen.+3%3A17)–19). Before their sin, Adam and Eve were in God’s perpetual rest and fellowship; thus any observance of a Sabbath would have been superfluous. this has already been clearly answered in a post above and on it I can not improve

btw - ALL of the Commandments of G-d came *after* Adam and Chavah sinned (all except "do not eat of this tree" - since that WAS the sin) - are we then to say that the other 9 Decalogue Commandments are as null and void, or "superfluous" as you seem to be saying Shabbat is??

I'll stop here as this is quite enough for the start of a discussion

b'Shalom
Henaynei


BTW - did you come here to ask a question and actually learn something or to teach us our error?

[Colabomb]

Then how do you honor your Creator? Or the one who brought you out of slavery?

By Worshipping Him, not only with songs of Praise and Thanksgiving, but in my daily life.

I honor Him by Spreading His Good News of Salvation and the Kingdom Through His Sacrifice on Calvary.

I honor Him by partaking of His Holy Sacraments in which he imparts grace to those who repent of their sin and confess Him as Lord.

I honor Him by Obeying that which he has given me, and letting others do the same, who may have been given something different.

I honor him by Caring for the Fatherless and the Widow, the poor and the hungry.

None of these I do the way I should, none of these make me Good, but perhaps in doing what little I do, It may reflect other's attention away from me, and towards my God.

[Colabomb]

If this is so then Yeshua lied when he said, that not one yod or title would pass from the law until ALL be fulfilled? All has not been fulfilled, has it?



19because it does not go into his heart, but into his stomach, and is eliminated?" (Thus He declared all foods clean.)

The Yod and Tittle Statement is a mystery that has been debated for centuries. However in light of the fact that he made a clear declaration changing the mosaic law (He is God after all, He does have that Authority), perhaps it is not as cut and dry/Black and white as messianics like to make it.

[Knightwolflord]

The Yod and Tittle Statement is a mystery that has been debated for centuries. However in light of the fact that he made a clear declaration changing the mosaic law (He is God after all, He does have that Authority), perhaps it is not as cut and dry/Black and white as messianics like to make it.

No, ya think! ;)

[Steve Petersen]

The Yod and Tittle Statement is a mystery that has been debated for centuries. However in light of the fact that he made a clear declaration changing the mosaic law (He is God after all, He does have that Authority), perhaps it is not as cut and dry/Black and white as messianics like to make it.

There is a story about jots and tittles from the Midrash:

Exodus Rabbah VI: 1. …When God gave the Torah to Israel, He inserted therein positive and negative commands and gave some commandments for a king, as it says: ‘Only he shall not multiply horses to himself... Neither shall he multiply wives to himself, that his heart turn not away; neither silver and gold (Deut. XVII, 16-17)’. But Solomon arose and studied the reason of God's decree, saying: ‘Why did God command, " He shall not multiply wives to himself? Is it not " That his heart turn not away "? Well, I will multiply(1) and still my heart will not turn away. Our Sages said: At that time, the yod of the word yarbeh went up on high and prostrated itself before God and said: ‘Master of the Universe! Hast thou not said that no letter shall ever be abolished from the Torah? Behold, Solomon has now arisen and abolished one. Who knows? Today he has abolished one letter, to-morrow he will abolish another until the whole Torah will be nullified? ' God replied: ' Solomon and a thousand like him will pass away, but the smallest tittle will not be erased from thee.’ …For it came to pass, when Solomon was old, that his wives turned away his heart after other gods (I Kings XI, 4). R. Simeon b. Yohai said: It had been better for Solomon to clean sewers than to have this verse written of him; for this reason did Solomon say of himself: ’And I turned myself to behold wisdom, and madness and folly’ (Eccl. II, 12). Solomon said: ‘Because I tried to be wiser than the Torah and persuaded myself that I knew the intention of the Torah, did this understanding and knowledge turn out to be madness and folly.’

1‘multiply’ thus changing the meaning of the verse to ‘He shall multiply wives and his heart will not turn away.’

Exodus Rabbah XIX:2 should all the nations of the world gather together to uproot one word of the Torah, they would be powerless to accomplish it. From whom do we learn this?--From Solomon; through his attempt at uprooting one letter of the Torah, the accusation arose against him. And who presented the accusation against him? Said R. Joshua b. Levi: The letter yod of the word yarbeh.1 R. Simeon taught: The Book of Deuteronomy ascended and prostrated itself before the Holy One, blessed be He, saying to Him: ' Lord of the Universe, Solomon has uprooted me and made of me an invalid document,’ since a document out of which two or three points are void is entirely void, and King Solomon sought to uproot the letter yod out of me: It is written, He should not multiply (lo yarbeh) horses to himself (Deut. XVII, 16) and he has multiplied horses to himself; it is written, Neither shall he multiply wives to himself (ib. 17) and he has multiplied wives to himself; it is written, Neither shall he greatly multiply to himself silver and gold (ib.) and he has multiplied silver and gold to himself.’ The Holy One, blessed be He, answered: ' Go! Solomon will be eliminated and a hundred like him, but not even a single yod that is in thee shall ever be made void.’

[Texasbluebonnet]

Perhaps Constantine gave the believe legal status, however the Church honored Sunday (perhaps as sabbath perhaps not, the debate continues) LONG before Constantine.

Not EVERYTHING messianics are against can be blamed on constantine :P

Regardless, even if the Sabbath law is still in effect, it is in effect for those who it was given to, the Jews. We were never given a Sabbatical Law. We may choose to honor sabbath, but we are in no obligation to.

Yes, but Constantine made it illegal to meet on a Saturday. That's the difference.

[ContraMundum]

Jews have never believed that Sabbath keeping is binding on Gentiles. Neither has the historic church. I'm too Jewish to disagree with either of them.

[Yareach]

Jews have never believed that Sabbath keeping is binding on Gentiles. Neither has the historic church. I'm too Jewish to disagree with either of them.

I agree this is true of Rabbinic halakha. So in this sense "Jews" don't believe the Sabbath is for gentiles.

But my bias is that we shouldn't read "Jews" and "Judaism" as monolithic terms when dealing with the Second Temple Period. The Judaisms of the day espoused many different views on a lot of topics so it is difficult to say, "Jews never/always" -- in my opinion. On the topic at hand, I can think of a number of examples from the Jewish Bible where the Sabbath was binding on gentiles.

The first example is after the Exodus of Egypt where the mixed multitude observed the Sabbath (Exo. 16).

The second example comes from Isaiah 56 where YHWH commends the foreigner (Hebrew ger) who observes the Sabbath (v.6). Isaiah's vision of the new creation sees not just Jews but "all flesh" coming before YHWH on the Sabbath (Isa. 66:23).

Finally the Sabbath commandment is inclusive of not just the sons of Israel but as well to the foreigner (Hebrew ger; Exo. 20:10; 23:12; Deu. 5:14).

In the New Testament we do find "God-fearers" (i.e. non-Jewish people devoted to the worship of the God of Israel) in the Synagogue and, in many cases, who came to believe in Yeshua.

What these passages mean (and any restrictions) is a case for further discussion of course. But what I will affirm is that there were/are scenarios and conditions where, at least some Jews, have seen the Sabbath as binding on gentiles. This is similar to the dialogue from the other day where it was submitted that Jews never courted conversion. This is true of Rabbinic Judaism. But examples from the Bible (e.g. Matt. 23:15; also see Kaiser's "Mission in the Old Testament") as well as recent studies from the Second Temple Period indicate, in agreement with the above passage, that this wasn't true at all times for all of Judaism.

Of course my bias would be the sanctification of the day before Sinai, the observance of the Sabbath day before Sinai, its purprose for mankind, and its prophetic presence during the end times as well as the kingdom/new creation. My tendancies aside, objectively I still see scenarios where Jewish law sees the Sabbath as binding on gentiles (as noted above). Which directs this issue to broader issues... one of which, in regards to your comment, is the shifting view of gentiles in the Biblical period. In short I don't think we can take Rabbinic Judaism as normative for all of Judaism of the period.

[Texasbluebonnet]

Jews have never believed that Sabbath keeping is binding on Gentiles. Neither has the historic church. I'm too Jewish to disagree with either of them.

What's most important is what G-d thinks. The problem is the traditions of man and us trying to create more rules and superceding what G-d said when we should just listen to Him and Him alone.

I agree this is true of Rabbinic halakha. So in this sense "Jews" don't believe the Sabbath is for gentiles.

I don't believe that G-d created different Sabbath rules for both Jews and gentiles.

[Yareach]

I don't believe that G-d created different Sabbath rules for both Jews and gentiles.

I don't either (I was trying to clarify terms and parameters of discussion).

Question: Why don't you believe G-d created different Sabbath rules for Jews and gentiles?

[visionary]

And the angel of Revelation cries out with a loud voice... Worship Him who created Heaven and Earth. Rev 14:7 Saying with a loud voice, Fear God, and give glory to him; for the hour of his judgment is come: and worship him that made heaven, and earth, and the sea, and the fountains of waters. and that is cried out in contrast to the other worship mentioned... Re 14:9 And the third angel followed them, saying with a loud voice, If any man worship the beast and his image, and receive his mark in his forehead, or in his hand, ....which isn't a pretty picture.

[visionary]

In the book of Revelation, Jesus Christ warned that eventually "all the world” will wonder “after the beast" and “worship the beast.” Rev. 13:3, 4; 14:9. To avoid worshipping “the beast,” Revelation specifically says we should “worship Him that made heaven and earth, the sea, and the fountain of waters.” Rev. 14:7. Thus one group worships the beast (Rev. 14:9), while the other group worships the Creator. Rev. 14:7.

[visionary]

They “keep the commandments of God and have the faith of Jesus.” Rev. 14:12. If you look at the Ten Commandments (Ex. 20), there is only one commandment about worshiping the Creator, and it is the one that states, “For in six days the Lord made heaven and earth, the sea, and all that in them is, and He rested on the seventh day.” Ex. 20:11. By comparing Rev. 14:7 with Ex. 20:11, it is clear that Rev. 14:7 is simply quoting the fourth commandment and emphasizing its importance.

[visionary]

Notice carefully: "All that dwell upon the earth shall worship him [the beast], whose names are not written in the book of life of the Lamb slain from the foundation of the world." Rev. 13:8. At the "foundation of the world," the Son of God made planet Earth in six days, and rested on the seventh day.

When Adam and Eve sinned by yielding to the serpent’s lies (Gen. 3:1-6), immediately the Son of God volunteered to become the Savior of fallen humanity. Thousands of years later, He appeared on earth as a Man to “seek and to save that which was lost” (Luke 19:10), that is, to eventually restore us to our original condition before the fall.

That is also why Yeshua has the right to be our "Lord of the Sabbath"

[ozell]

The World recognizes Sunday as the first day of the week. The world recognizes Saturday as the seventh day of the week.

shall not the Judge of the whole earth do right?

Gen 18:25 That be far from thee to do after this manner, to slay the righteous with the wicked: and that the righteous should be as the wicked, that be far from thee: Shall not the Judge of all the earth do right?

is the Lord a Just God?

Isa 45:21 Tell ye, and bring them near; yea, let them take counsel together: who hath declared this from ancient time? who hath told it from that time? have not I the LORD? and there is no God else beside me; a just God and a Saviour; there is none beside me.

Shall not God judge righteous?

Jn 7:24 Judge not according to the appearance, but judge righteous judgment.

God know the intent of the heart

Ps 44:21 Shall not God search this out? for he knoweth the secrets of the heart.

Heb 4:12 For the word of God is quick, and powerful, and sharper than any twoedged sword, piercing even to the dividing asunder of soul and spirit, and of the joints and marrow, and is a discerner of the thoughts and intents of the heart.

this creation called man knows that the sabbath day is the 7th day of the week. from Alaska to China, from Washington to Brussels,

and it will be require dof them on Judgement day.

Rev20v11-15
11: And I saw a great white throne, and him that sat on it, from whose face the earth and the heaven fled away; and there was found no place for them.
12: And I saw the dead, small and great, stand before God; and the books were opened: and another book was opened, which is the book of life: and the dead were judged out of those things which were written in the books, according to their works.
13: And the sea gave up the dead which were in it; and death and hell delivered up the dead which were in them: and they were judged every man according to their works.
14: And death and hell were cast into the lake of fire. This is the second death.
15: And whosoever was not found written in the book of life was cast into the lake of fire.

and it will be required of them on that day.

Lk 12:20 But God said unto him, Thou fool, this night thy soul shall be required of thee: then whose shall those things be, which thou hast provided?

[visionary]

Luke was a Gentile writer of the New Testament and often made reference to things which were peculiarly Jewish. He spoke of the “nation of the Jews” Acts 10:22, “the people of the Jews” Acts 12:11, “the land of the Jews” Acts 10:39, “synagogue of the Jews” Acts 14:1, etc. but Luke never referred to the “Sabbath of the Jews” although he mentioned the Sabbath repeatedly. Christ clearly taught that “the Sabbath was made for man.” Mark 2:27.

[visionary]

Here is what God inspired Paul to write to the GENTILE Ephesian converts. It is an extensive but important passage, revealing how Gentiles become partakers of the exact same promises God made to Israel 3,500 years ago:

Eph 2:11-19“Wherefore remember, that you being in time past Gentiles in the flesh…That at that time you were without Christ, being aliens from the commonwealth of Israel, and strangers from the covenants of promise, having no hope, and without God in the world: But now in Christ Jesus you who sometimes were far off are made near by the blood of Christ. For He is our peace, who has made both one…that He might reconcile both [Jew and Gentile] unto God in one body by the cross…and preached peace to you which were afar off…For through Him we both have access by one Spirit unto the Father. Now therefore you are no more strangers and foreigners, but fellow citizens with the saints, and of the household of God”

[Steve Petersen]

Luke was a Gentile writer of the New Testament and often made reference to things which were peculiarly Jewish. He spoke of the “nation of the Jews” Acts 10:22, “the people of the Jews” Acts 12:11, “the land of the Jews” Acts 10:39, “synagogue of the Jews” Acts 14:1, etc.


John wrote of 'the Feast of the Jews' (as if he wasn't one!)

But we MessyAntics have found a way around that. In John we translate it 'Judaens.' Aren't we clever!?

[ozell]

Luke was a Gentile writer of the New Testament and often made reference to things which were peculiarly Jewish. He spoke of the “nation of the Jews” Acts 10:22, “the people of the Jews” Acts 12:11, “the land of the Jews” Acts 10:39, “synagogue of the Jews” Acts 14:1, etc. but Luke never referred to the “Sabbath of the Jews” although he mentioned the Sabbath repeatedly. Christ clearly taught that “the Sabbath was made for man.” Mark 2:27.


Hi Vis

A little side note

Luke is not a Gentile Luke is Israelite, Every writer in the bible are Israelites. No stranger had come into the church as of Acts2.

Acts2v1

1: And when the day of Pentecost was fully come, they were all with one accord in one place.
2: And suddenly there came a sound from heaven as of a rushing mighty wind, and it filled all the house where they were sitting.
3: And there appeared unto them cloven tongues like as of fire, and it sat upon each of them.
4: And they were all filled with the Holy Ghost, and began to speak with other tongues, as the Spirit gave them utterance.
5: And there were dwelling at Jerusalem Jews, devout men, out of every nation under heaven.
6: Now when this was noised abroad, the multitude came together, and were confounded, because that every man heard them speak in his own language.
7: And they were all amazed and marvelled, saying one to another, Behold, are not all these which speak Galilaeans?
8: And how hear we every man in our own tongue, wherein we were born?
9: Parthians, and Medes, and Elamites, and the dwellers in Mesopotamia, and in Judaea, and Cappadocia, in Pontus, and Asia,
10: Phrygia, and Pamphylia, in Egypt, and in the parts of Libya about Cyrene, and strangers of Rome, Jews and proselytes,
11: Cretes and Arabians, we do hear them speak in our tongues the wonderful works of God.
12: And they were all amazed, and were in doubt, saying one to another, What meaneth this?
13: Others mocking said, These men are full of new wine.
14: But Peter, standing up with the eleven, lifted up his voice, and said unto them, Ye men of Judaea, and all ye that dwell at Jerusalem, be this known unto you, and hearken to my words:


It was unlawful for Israel to keep company with another natons

Acts 10:28 And he said unto them, Ye know how that it is an unlawful thing for a man that is a Jew to keep company, or come unto one of another nation; but God hath shewed me that I should not call any man common or unclean.

Luke being a gentile is another misconception out there.

the bible says different.

Jesus picked the twelve, Luke is one of the twelve

Matthew10v

1: And when he had called unto him his twelve disciples, he gave them power against unclean spirits, to cast them out, and to heal all manner of sickness and all manner of disease.
2: Now the names of the twelve apostles are these; The first, Simon, who is called Peter, and Andrew his brother; James the son of Zebedee, and John his brother;
3: Philip, and Bartholomew; Thomas, and Matthew the publican; James the son of Alphaeus, and Lebbaeus, whose surname was Thaddaeus;
4: Simon the Canaanite, and Judas Iscariot, who also betrayed him.
5: These twelve Jesus sent forth, and commanded them, saying, Go not into the way of the Gentiles, and into any city of the Samaritans enter ye not:
6: But go rather to the lost sheep of the house of Israel.

Jesus came to Judea the land of the Jews his own tribe, not even the lost tribes.

John1v1-10

1: In the beginning was the Word, and the Word was with God, and the Word was God.
2: The same was in the beginning with God.
3: All things were made by him; and without him was not any thing made that was made.
4: In him was life; and the life was the light of men.
5: And the light shineth in darkness; and the darkness comprehended it not.
6: There was a man sent from God, whose name was John.
7: The same came for a witness, to bear witness of the Light, that all men through him might believe.
8: He was not that Light, but was sent to bear witness of that Light.
9: That was the true Light, which lighteth every man that cometh into the world.
10: He was in the world, and the world was made by him, and the world knew him not.
11: He came unto his own, and his own received him not.

[Chazak]

This is my first post on this board. Shalom to all!

Found this interesting and also wanted to make a few observations. My family and I are gentiles but in the past 4 years have come to a new revelation of the Scriptures. That is the fact that God revealed Himself and His character in the beginning. We wouldn't understand 'holiness' or 'righteousness' without His 'Self-Revelation'. He revealed Himself and His ways to us through the written Word in the beginning, and then through the Word made flesh in Yeshua, was our example of sinlessness. Then He called us to follow His example. In all of the NT He kept the Sabbath.

The Sabbath is the very first thing in creation which God blessed and sanctified, or set apart - He made it Holy. Before there was a Temple or an altar, before there was a Bible or a commandment, before there was a church, there was the Sabbath. Jesus said He is the 'Lord of the Sabbath.' He said, 'Come to Me, all you who are weary and burdened, and I will give you rest.' It's a day of setting aside the worries of the world.

And yes, the word Sabbath, does come from the root word for seven - there is no getting around that. It also means 'cessation'. God ceased from the 'work' of creation on the 7th day. We rest from our own 'creating' also. We stop shaping, creating, forming, making, ordering, organizing - and learn to rest in His provision. Sometimes it's hard to rest in grace. We want to 'control' just one more thing. But the commandment forces us to stop for one day and remember the One Who created time. It's the one day of the week to remember that we serve God, not Pharoah (or the things of the world.) We're God's servants. We keep the Sabbathe because He set us free, and being free we're able to keep His holy day.

Isaiah says that Sabbath keepers will 'ride on the heights of the earth', share 'in the heritage of Jacob' and 'delight in the LORD.' He says that Sabbath is a 'delight' and the LORD's 'holy day.

Now Titus 3:5-7 says,
"He saved us, not on the basis of deeds which we have done in righteousness, but according to His mercy, by the washing of regeneration and renewing by the Holy Spirit whom He poured out upon us rightly through Jesus Christ our Savior, so that being justified by His brace we would be made heirs according to the hope of eternal life. This is a trustworthy statement; and concerning these things I want you to speak confidently, so that thoses who have believed God will be careful to engage in good deeds. These things are good and profitable for men."

So that means our salvation is through Yeshua alone. But there is more to the life of faith than just being 'saved.' It seems to me that most in the Body of Christ are missing the delight and blessing of God's Sabbath rest.

Isaiah 58:13-14 says,
"If because of the Sabbath, you turn your foot from doing your own pleasure on My holy day, and call the Sabbath a delight, the holy day of the LORD honorable, and honor it, desisting from your own ways, from seeking your own pleasure and speaking your own word, then you will take delight in the LORD, and I will make you ride on the heights of the earth; and I will feed you with the heritage of Jacob your father, for the mouth of the LORD has spoken."

If the Sabbath day really is the LORD's day, and we are the LORD's people, then keeping Sabbath is not about brownie points but it IS about living a life consistent with what we believe. We believe in God; we believe in His Word, and in His Word He says we are to keep the Sabbath.

The Sabbath is given to us to remind us of our rest in Him and to bring the kind of routine we need to pass our faith down to the following generations. It's a tool He's given us to train us to come and rest in Him.

[Lebesgue]

This is my first post on this board. Shalom to all!

Found this interesting and also wanted to make a few observations. My family and I are gentiles but in the past 4 years have come to a new revelation of the Scriptures. That is the fact that God revealed Himself and His character in the beginning. We wouldn't understand 'holiness' or 'righteousness' without His 'Self-Revelation'. He revealed Himself and His ways to us through the written Word in the beginning, and then through the Word made flesh in Yeshua, was our example of sinlessness. Then He called us to follow His example. In all of the NT He kept the Sabbath.

The Sabbath is the very first thing in creation which God blessed and sanctified, or set apart - He made it Holy. Before there was a Temple or an altar, before there was a Bible or a commandment, before there was a church, there was the Sabbath. Jesus said He is the 'Lord of the Sabbath.' He said, 'Come to Me, all you who are weary and burdened, and I will give you rest.' It's a day of setting aside the worries of the world.

And yes, the word Sabbath, does come from the root word for seven - there is no getting around that. It also means 'cessation'. God ceased from the 'work' of creation on the 7th day. We rest from our own 'creating' also. We stop shaping, creating, forming, making, ordering, organizing - and learn to rest in His provision. Sometimes it's hard to rest in grace. We want to 'control' just one more thing. But the commandment forces us to stop for one day and remember the One Who created time. It's the one day of the week to remember that we serve God, not Pharoah (or the things of the world.) We're God's servants. We keep the Sabbathe because He set us free, and being free we're able to keep His holy day.

Isaiah says that Sabbath keepers will 'ride on the heights of the earth', share 'in the heritage of Jacob' and 'delight in the LORD.' He says that Sabbath is a 'delight' and the LORD's 'holy day.

Now Titus 3:5-7 says,
"He saved us, not on the basis of deeds which we have done in righteousness, but according to His mercy, by the washing of regeneration and renewing by the Holy Spirit whom He poured out upon us rightly through Jesus Christ our Savior, so that being justified by His brace we would be made heirs according to the hope of eternal life. This is a trustworthy statement; and concerning these things I want you to speak confidently, so that thoses who have believed God will be careful to engage in good deeds. These things are good and profitable for men."

So that means our salvation is through Yeshua alone. But there is more to the life of faith than just being 'saved.' It seems to me that most in the Body of Christ are missing the delight and blessing of God's Sabbath rest.

Isaiah 58:13-14 says,
"If because of the Sabbath, you turn your foot from doing your own pleasure on My holy day, and call the Sabbath a delight, the holy day of the LORD honorable, and honor it, desisting from your own ways, from seeking your own pleasure and speaking your own word, then you will take delight in the LORD, and I will make you ride on the heights of the earth; and I will feed you with the heritage of Jacob your father, for the mouth of the LORD has spoken."

If the Sabbath day really is the LORD's day, and we are the LORD's people, then keeping Sabbath is not about brownie points but it IS about living a life consistent with what we believe. We believe in God; we believe in His Word, and in His Word He says we are to keep the Sabbath.

The Sabbath is given to us to remind us of our rest in Him and to bring the kind of routine we need to pass our faith down to the following generations. It's a tool He's given us to train us to come and rest in Him.

I agree. And you make some very good points.

I see Shabbat as a real blessing, but my salvation is in Y'shua.

Shalom,

Lebesgue

[Chazak]

Hi Lebesgue,

Good to talk with you. And yes, I agree, salvation is in Y'shua ALONE. God loves us, regenerates us and give us eternal life because of what Jesus did for us, not because of what we do. No one can add to the completed work of Christ's atonement.

Keeping the Sabbath is a declaration of faith and an act of simple obedience. It's a remembrance of the Exodus from Egypt - of God's saving power. It's a celebration of salvation for EVERYONE.

[Henaynei]

Welcome Chazak - may you find among us fellowship and learning :)

[Lebesgue]

Hi Lebesgue,

Good to talk with you. And yes, I agree, salvation is in Y'shua ALONE. God loves us, regenerates us and give us eternal life because of what Jesus did for us, not because of what we do. No one can add to the completed work of Christ's atonement.

Keeping the Sabbath is a declaration of faith and an act of simple obedience. It's a remembrance of the Exodus from Egypt - of God's saving power. It's a celebration of salvation for EVERYONE.

I SO agree with that, Chazak.

And it's also a refreshing for me to get away from the cares of my busy life. I work full time at a demanding job and go to grad school part time and I find I NEED Shabbat.

Y'shua was so right(but then He is ALWAYS right) when He said "The Sabbath is made for man". YES it is and it is such a blessing to me.

And at my synagogue the programme is set up so we REALLY honour Shabbat. We have worship starting at 10 am until about 1 pm. Then oneg. After oneg there is Torah Midrash(which is wonderful, it's just like Bible University) and after that Hebrew class. I find that I am spending the WHOLE DAY away from worldly things and the cares of the world and it is just wonderful.

Shalom,

Lebesgue

[visionary]

You are fortunate in that you have a whole day of fellowship in the Lord. Our services are friday evening and saturday evening and while they are wonderful... there is this gap where I live and am alone in my faith.

[Lulav]

By Worshipping Him, not only with songs of Praise and Thanksgiving, but in my daily life.

I honor Him by Spreading His Good News of Salvation and the Kingdom Through His Sacrifice on Calvary.

I honor Him by partaking of His Holy Sacraments in which he imparts grace to those who repent of their sin and confess Him as Lord.

I honor Him by Obeying that which he has given me, and letting others do the same, who may have been given something different.

I honor him by Caring for the Fatherless and the Widow, the poor and the hungry.

None of these I do the way I should, none of these make me Good, but perhaps in doing what little I do, It may reflect other's attention away from me, and towards my God. Those are all well and good, but how do any of them point to the fact that the G-d you worship is the creator G-d? Remember , I am speaking of witness to the world who doesn't know him.

[Lulav]

In the book of Revelation, Jesus Christ warned that eventually "all the world” will wonder “after the beast" and “worship the beast.” Rev. 13:3, 4; 14:9. To avoid worshipping “the beast,” Revelation specifically says we should “worship Him that made heaven and earth, the sea, and the fountain of waters.” Rev. 14:7. Thus one group worships the beast (Rev. 14:9), while the other group worships the Creator. Rev. 14:7.:amen: Or it can be put this way, One group worships the creation ( the creature) the other worships the Creator, and there is only one.

This is very much related to many things in Torah that HaShem commands against. What today we call 'nature' the natural things are worshipped, and you have those who are against G-d who call themselves wiccans instead of witches, but it is all the same, just a different window dressing, who worship the creations but not the creator, they also worship the head of the creations. This is why it is so important to 'keep' the Shabbat holy, set apart, because it honors the creator of all.

There are many today that keep their new 'sabbath' on sunday, that are in reality, pantheists, and they don't realize the danger they are flirting with.

[Lulav]

Luke was a Gentile writer of the New Testament and often made reference to things which were peculiarly Jewish. He spoke of the “nation of the Jews” Acts 10:22, “the people of the Jews” Acts 12:11, “the land of the Jews” Acts 10:39, “synagogue of the Jews” Acts 14:1, etc. but Luke never referred to the “Sabbath of the Jews” although he mentioned the Sabbath repeatedly. Christ clearly taught that “the Sabbath was made for man.” Mark 2:27.maybe because at that time there was no other 'Sabbath'?

Notice carefully: "All that dwell upon the earth shall worship him [the beast], whose names are not written in the book of life of the Lamb slain from the foundation of the world." Rev. 13:8. At the "foundation of the world," the Son of God made planet Earth in six days, and rested on the seventh day.

When Adam and Eve sinned by yielding to the serpent’s lies (Gen. 3:1-6), immediately the Son of God volunteered to become the Savior of fallen humanity. Thousands of years later, He appeared on earth as a Man to “seek and to save that which was lost” (Luke 19:10), that is, to eventually restore us to our original condition before the fall.

That is also why Yeshua has the right to be our "Lord of the Sabbath" I agree with all that except that he volunteered, G-d already knew the end from the beginning, he knew Adam would fall, his plan was already written as it is in the stars. There was no volunteering, that would mean that there was a choice of potential ones one could be drawn from, and there is none other.

John wrote of 'the Feast of the Jews' (as if he wasn't one!)

But we MessyAntics have found a way around that. In John we translate it 'Judaens.' Aren't we clever!? I've viewed that as a way to define the different sects, especially at Passover time, when there is a discrepancy in the calendars followed?

Hi Vis

A little side note

Luke is not a Gentile Luke is Israelite, Every writer in the bible are Israelites. No stranger had come into the church as of Acts2.

Acts2v1

1: And when the day of Pentecost was fully come, they were all with one accord in one place.
2: And suddenly there came a sound from heaven as of a rushing mighty wind, and it filled all the house where they were sitting.
3: And there appeared unto them cloven tongues like as of fire, and it sat upon each of them.
4: And they were all filled with the Holy Ghost, and began to speak with other tongues, as the Spirit gave them utterance.
5: And there were dwelling at Jerusalem Jews, devout men, out of every nation under heaven.
6: Now when this was noised abroad, the multitude came together, and were confounded, because that every man heard them speak in his own language.
7: And they were all amazed and marvelled, saying one to another, Behold, are not all these which speak Galilaeans?
8: And how hear we every man in our own tongue, wherein we were born?
9: Parthians, and Medes, and Elamites, and the dwellers in Mesopotamia, and in Judaea, and Cappadocia, in Pontus, and Asia,
10: Phrygia, and Pamphylia, in Egypt, and in the parts of Libya about Cyrene, and strangers of Rome, Jews and proselytes,
11: Cretes and Arabians, we do hear them speak in our tongues the wonderful works of God.
12: And they were all amazed, and were in doubt, saying one to another, What meaneth this?
13: Others mocking said, These men are full of new wine.
14: But Peter, standing up with the eleven, lifted up his voice, and said unto them, Ye men of Judaea, and all ye that dwell at Jerusalem, be this known unto you, and hearken to my words:


It was unlawful for Israel to keep company with another natons

Acts 10:28 And he said unto them, Ye know how that it is an unlawful thing for a man that is a Jew to keep company, or come unto one of another nation; but God hath shewed me that I should not call any man common or unclean.

Luke being a gentile is another misconception out there.

the bible says different.

Jesus picked the twelve, Luke is one of the twelve

Matthew10v

1: And when he had called unto him his twelve disciples, he gave them power against unclean spirits, to cast them out, and to heal all manner of sickness and all manner of disease.
2: Now the names of the twelve apostles are these; The first, Simon, who is called Peter, and Andrew his brother; James the son of Zebedee, and John his brother;
3: Philip, and Bartholomew; Thomas, and Matthew the publican; James the son of Alphaeus, and Lebbaeus, whose surname was Thaddaeus;
4: Simon the Canaanite, and Judas Iscariot, who also betrayed him.
5: These twelve Jesus sent forth, and commanded them, saying, Go not into the way of the Gentiles, and into any city of the Samaritans enter ye not:
6: But go rather to the lost sheep of the house of Israel.

Jesus came to Judea the land of the Jews his own tribe, not even the lost tribes.

John1v1-10

1: In the beginning was the Word, and the Word was with God, and the Word was God.
2: The same was in the beginning with God.
3: All things were made by him; and without him was not any thing made that was made.
4: In him was life; and the life was the light of men.
5: And the light shineth in darkness; and the darkness comprehended it not.
6: There was a man sent from God, whose name was John.
7: The same came for a witness, to bear witness of the Light, that all men through him might believe.
8: He was not that Light, but was sent to bear witness of that Light.
9: That was the true Light, which lighteth every man that cometh into the world.
10: He was in the world, and the world was made by him, and the world knew him not.
11: He came unto his own, and his own received him not. Luke was not one of the twelve, there is no evidence to uphold that. The Twelve, the original are, Andrew, Simon, James, John, Peter, Nathaniel, Bartholomew, Judah, Matthew, Phillip, Thomas, Thaddeus, and later to replace Judah, Matthias. No Luke.
Welcome Chazak - may you find among us fellowship and learning :)Ditto! :thumbsup:

[Chazak]

Thank you Lulav, Henaynei!

I'm glad to be among fellow believers and know I can learn much from all of you!

And Lebesque,

Your synagogue sounds like the one we've found! It is wonderful to get away from the things of the world and to focus on God all day and His provision!

Shalom

[Colabomb]

Those are all well and good, but how do any of them point to the fact that the G-d you worship is the creator G-d? Remember , I am speaking of witness to the world who doesn't know him.

We havn't cut the book of Genesis out of our Bibles. :P

[Lulav]

We havn't cut the book of Genesis out of our Bibles. :P And others that are lost in the world would know that, how?

[Colabomb]

And others that are lost in the world would know that, how?

Firstly, by picking up said bible.

However, do you expect the ignorant to understand seventh day worship anymore than anything else?

No, you have to explain it to them. Just as we explain our beliefs.

I pray this prayer every morning in the Liturgy.

Venite Psalm 95:1-7; 96:9, 13

O come, let us sing unto the Lord; *
let us heartily rejoice in the strength of our salvation.
Let us come before his presence with thanksgiving *
and show ourselves glad in him with psalms.

For the Lord is a great God, *
and a great King above all gods.
In his hand are all the corners of the earth, *
and the strength of the hills is his also.
The sea is his, and he made it, *
and his hands prepared the dry land.


The Collect for Saturdays is:

Almighty God, who after the creation of the world didst rest
from all thy works and sanctify a day of rest for all thy
creatures: Grant that we, putting away all earthly anxieties,
may be duly prepared for the service of thy sanctuary, and
that our rest here upon earth may be a preparation for the
eternal rest promised to thy people in heaven; through Jesus
Christ our Lord. Amen.

[visionary]

There was no volunteering, that would mean that there was a choice of potential ones one could be drawn from, and there is none other. If Yeshua never volunteered but stated we will just have to create another group and we will just scratch this batch as defective, and we will keep doing that until they see and understand the consequences of sin, and how it will burn itself out.

[Lulav]

Firstly, by picking up said bible.

However, do you expect the ignorant to understand seventh day worship anymore than anything else?

No, you have to explain it to them. Just as we explain our beliefs.

I pray this prayer every morning in the Liturgy.

VenitePsalm 95:1-7; 96:9, 13

O come, let us sing unto the Lord; *
let us heartily rejoice in the strength of our salvation.
Let us come before his presence with thanksgiving *
and show ourselves glad in him with psalms.

For the Lord is a great God, *
and a great King above all gods.
In his hand are all the corners of the earth, *
and the strength of the hills is his also.
The sea is his, and he made it, *
and his hands prepared the dry land.


The Collect for Saturdays is:

Almighty God, who after the creation of the world didst rest
from all thy works and sanctify a day of rest for all thy
creatures: Grant that we, putting away all earthly anxieties,
may be duly prepared for the service of thy sanctuary, and
that our rest here upon earth may be a preparation for the
eternal rest promised to thy people in heaven; through Jesus
Christ our Lord. Amen. Again, how does that show the world? :confused:

When you refuse to work your job on Shabbat, or do commerce, or any work, that speaks to someone especially in this country where so much centers around saturday, shopping, sports, etc. Keeping Genesis in your bible as opposed to taking it out? or making repetative sayings does not establish the creator G-d. I wish I could explain it better but I guess you just have to learn for yourself. :pray:

[ContraMundum]

The Collect for Saturdays is:

Almighty God, who after the creation of the world didst rest
from all thy works and sanctify a day of rest for all thy
creatures: Grant that we, putting away all earthly anxieties,
may be duly prepared for the service of thy sanctuary, and
that our rest here upon earth may be a preparation for the
eternal rest promised to thy people in heaven; through Jesus
Christ our Lord. Amen.

That Collect has always been a favorite of mine. Thanks for sharing it with the forum.

[ContraMundum]

Again, how does that show the world? :confused:

When you refuse to work your job on Shabbat, or do commerce, or any work, that speaks to someone especially in this country where so much centers around saturday, shopping, sports, etc. Keeping Genesis in your bible as opposed to taking it out? or making repetative sayings does not establish the creator G-d. I wish I could explain it better but I guess you just have to learn for yourself. :pray:

People have been Sabbath keeping for centuries, and the world doesn't seem to change much as a result of that. Both you and I know that no one receives the Holy Spirit by Sabbath keeping (Gal 3). Only the Holy Spirit can enlighten a sinner, and while Sabbath keeping might be one way to witness to others about God's creation and authority, it is not the only way, and certainly there are other ways with better track records. Keeping the Sabbath was given to Israel alone as a sign between us and God to testify of His creation (Ex 31:16, 17), not something we are to shove down the throats of the world to make them repent. In fact, as a Jew, you would already know that we have never regarded this something Gentiles are obligated to do. Keeping the Sabbath is great, but it's not given to Israel as a tool for evangelism.