Lutheran Family Values

[resoto]

I made this post in the Catholic Subforum, I would also like to know the lutheran view: Are the lower divorce rates of lutheran related to your church teachings? How? I would like your view on the matter.

"Congratulations, Agnostics, Atheists, Catholics and Lutherans low divorce rates."
(but in the case of agnostics or atheists I suspect they might have also low marriage rates first).


Yes, the Bana Group study have proven that.

Please take a look at this:
Divorse rates among evangelical christians are just as high as for non Christians.

http://www.barna.org/FlexPage.aspx?P...naUpdateID=170 (http://www.barna.org/FlexPage.aspx?Page=BarnaUpdate&BarnaUpdateID=170)

Now take a look at this:

Quote:
We hear an awful lot from conservatives in the Bible Belt and on the TV about how we all should be living. Certainly a culture that teaches the conservative religious values of the Christian right must have clean living written all over it. And lots of ripe fruit from their morally superior lives abounding."

"It doesn't. Far from it. People that talk the loudest may be the ones walking the slowest."

And look, Atheist, Agnostics, Catholics and Lutherans have the lowest divorce rates. About 21%

For Baptists are 29% and for other evangelicals are 34%.
http://www.religioustolerance.org/chr_dira.htm (http://www.religioustolerance.org/chr_dira.htm)
http://www.religioustolerance.org/chr_dira.htm (http://www.religioustolerance.org/chr_dira.htm)

Now look at this:

Quote:
11% of all American adults are divorced
25% of all American adults have had at least one divorce
27% of born-again Christians have had at least one divorce
24% of all non-born-again Christians have been divorced
21% of atheists have been divorced
21% of Catholics and Lutherans have been divorced
24% of Mormons have been divorced
25% of mainstream Protestants have been divorced
29% of Baptists have been divorced
34% of nondenominational, independent Protestants have been divorced
27% of people in the South and Midwest have been divorced
26% of people in the West have been divorced
19% of people in the Northwest and Northeast have been divorced (areas full of liberals, secularists and catholics).

So if you want a stable marriage marry a Atheist, a Agnostic, a Catholic or a Lutheran.

It have been proven by science. :thumbsup:

[BigNorsk]

Well maybe it's because we all live in Lake Wobegon and we are all above average, I don't know.

Marv

[Jenna]

Are there different teachings on marriage and vows made before God, when speaking about other denominations? I am not aware of any, except for the strange practice of annulment within the Catholic church. I thought that all Christian churches taught the same thing- that if a man and woman marry, then they *should* remain so until death parts them. I can't imagine that Lutherans somehow commit fewer sins against one another than other Christians. I also can't imagine that we forgive one another more faithfully than other Christians. Who knows the truth of it? Probably only God. :) lol

[Avatar]

If 11% of all Americans have been divorced and all groups cited have a rate over 20%, somethings wonky there. Shouldn't the rate be over 20%?

[DaRev]

If 11% of all Americans have been divorced and all groups cited have a rate over 20%, somethings wonky there. Shouldn't the rate be over 20%?

The percentages of individual groups can be high, but compared to the whole can be relatively low.

[NordicLutheran]

Maybe Geography is a big reason. A lot of the Lutheran Church being located in the midwest is maybe a factor?

[Avatar]

*waits while people do the math*

[Avatar]

The percentages of individual groups can be high, but compared to the whole can be relatively low.

You have it backwards, see last post.

[DaRev]

You have it backwards, see last post.

How so? 5 people out of a group of 10 would be 50%. 5 people out of a greater group of 50 people would only be 10%. How is that backwards? :scratch:

[RadMan]

Divorce is on the rise in the Muslim community, especially in the West. According to a study conducted by Dr. Ilyas Ba-Yunus, a sociology professor at State University of New York, the overall divorce rate among Muslims in North America is at an astounding 31%. The state of California ranks highest with a 37% rate of divorce and New York, Ontario, and Texas follow closely with a 30% rate. Compared to the overall rate of divorce in the U.S. (49%) and Canada (45%)

http://www.infocusnews.net/content/view/986/135/

To address your OP then we can assume from your quotes here resota that the people that don't believe in God are just as faithful in marriage as Lutherans/Roman Catholics. I'm also assuming that your opinion is being Christian doesn't help.....or not? Since you consider yourself a seeker is this a way to consolidate your stance one way or the other? Just curious.

I've always found that there are just as many sinful people in Christianity as there is in the secular world. That's why they are Christian because they know they are sinful and need repentance and forgiveness.

[Edial]

...

And look, Atheist, Agnostics, Catholics and Lutherans have the lowest divorce rates. About 21%

...
19% of people in the Northwest and Northeast have been divorced (areas full of liberals, secularists and catholics).

...
I have some thoughts on it.

In Soviet Union (back when it was the atheist/secilarist USSR) divorce was practically "unheard" of.
And they had drunkenness, family violence, but they did not divorce. They considered it to be "that's life" and accepted their position in this life.

It was traditionally driven. One does not divorce.
When Soviet Union collapsed, people were influences tremendously by the "democracy" and ... divorce skyrocketed.

(I do not know about the liberals. The study did not present their numbers).

Concerning Christians, I think it is the same way.

The more one separates himself from Christian tradition, the more one feels "freer" to walk "on his own".
And, traditional Christians that leave the church also appear to divorce more.

Tradition (whether it is atheistic or Christian) appears to promote stability. And stability is seen as having family and children.

It does not appear to be enough to depend on the Bible and Spirit alone to live a stable life. We simply are not that "holy" :).

There is a tradition of marriage and there is a tradition of divorce.
If people around you divorce, you'll be tempted to divorce.
If they do not, you'll think twice about divorcing.

Influence is very important.

Christian tradition and atheistic tradition appear to have captured the deep message of God - stay married.
Traditions are important because they capture centuries and centuries of practice how to live.

Thanks,
Ed

[RadMan]

I have some thoughts on it.

In Soviet Union (back when it was the atheist/secilarist USSR) divorce was practically "unheard" of.
And they had drunkenness, family violence, but they did not divorce. They considered it to be "that's life" and accepted their position in this life.

It was traditionally driven. One does not divorce.
When Soviet Union collapsed, people were influences tremendously by the "democracy" and ... divorce skyrocketed.

(I do not know about the liberals. The study did not present their numbers).

Concerning Christians, I think it is the same way.

The more one separates himself from Christian tradition, the more one feels "freer" to walk "on his own".
And, traditional Christians that leave the church also appear to divorce more.

Tradition (whether it is atheistic or Christian) appears to promote stability. And stability is seen as having family and children.

It does not appear to be enough to depend on the Bible and Spirit alone to live a stable life. We simply are not that "holy" :).

There is a tradition of marriage and there is a tradition of divorce.
If people around you divorce, you'll be tempted to divorce.
If they do not, you'll think twice about divorcing.

Influence is very important.

Christian tradition and atheistic tradition appear to have captured the deep message of God - stay married.
Traditions are important because they capture centuries and centuries of practice how to live.

Thanks,
Ed
Good insites Ed :thumbsup:

[CaliforniaJosiah]

Well maybe it's because we all live in Lake Wobegon and we are all above average, I don't know.

Marv

Or maybe that a disproportionate number live in North Dakota where its 42 miles to the next person, and half of the year you couldn't get there if you wanted.

[resoto]

To address your OP then we can assume from your quotes here resota that the people that don't believe in God are just as faithful in marriage as Lutherans/Roman Catholics. I'm also assuming that your opinion is being Christian doesn't help.....or not? Since you consider yourself a seeker is this a way to consolidate your stance one way or the other? Just curious.


Well, the atheist are now bragging about that "atheist family values" are as good or better that christian values
so is important because they are making the case that faith is not important for happy marriage, that even might even hurt. Get the idea that the study was done for a conservative evangelical think tank and have backfired when church going (not nominal) "liberal mainstream protestants", catholics and self-professed atheist/agnostic have lower divorce rates. And groups like Atheist Alliance and Stopthechristianright are using it to defend secularism.

About Atheist/Agnostics I think that some factors are in play. The fact that many of them just do not marry anymore and those who do often have strong personal reasons to do so might influence the results.
Among Catholics the fact that they are taught marriage is a Sacrament, that divorce means excommunion, that husband and wife are equal partners in the couple and sometimes there might be a ethnic factor must influence things.
Do not know about the Lutherans but I also suspect that a ethnic component might be at play plus your church teachings. That is what I made the post.

Some people suspect that the organization of many conservative evangelical southern churches and the fact that they insist in the wife sumission to their husbands might be some of the causes for the higher divorce incidence.
I noticed for example that Catholics and Lutherans are episcopalian in church goverment, liturgical in workship, tend to read the Bible in a critical contextual way, and do not believe in eternal assurance of salvation and put a lot of value on education. I wonder if that might influence the churchgoing couples dynamics in a marriage.

[Edial]

Well, the atheist are now bragging about that "atheist family values" are as good or better that christian values
so is important because they are making the case that faith is not important for happy marriage, that even might even hurt. Get the idea that the study was done for a conservative evangelical think tank and have backfired when church going (not nominal) "liberal mainstream protestants", catholics and self-professed atheist/agnostic have lower divorce rates. And groups like Atheist Alliance and Stopthechristianright are using it to defend secularism.
Well, let them. These are the numbers. They like numbers to support their views.

However, if they would, l would respond in the following way, below. You already touched on it ...

About Atheist/Agnostics I think that some factors are in play. The fact that many of them just do not marry anymore and those who do often have strong personal reasons to do so might influence the results.
Atheist/Agnostics and Liberal Christians often just live together and do not marry.
And their separation rate from living together is tremendous.

Conservative Christians do not live together, but marry.

Once we factor these numbers in, the result of the study should change dramatically in favor of conservative Christians.

Among Catholics the fact that they are taught marriage is a Sacrament, that divorce means excommunion, that husband and wife are equal partners in the couple and sometimes there might be a ethnic factor must influence things.
Yes.
There is this "fear factor". :)
However, I do not agree that ethnicity plays a role.


Do not know about the Lutherans but I also suspect that a ethnic component might be at play plus your church teachings. That is what I made the post.
To Lutherans marriage is not a sacrament and they do not excommunicate people for divorcing.
And the ethnic factor definitely does not play a prominent role.
The fact that there are many people of ethnic origin that are members of Lutheran church, means that they are accepted.
And if they are accepted, there will be mixed marriages by default.

Some people suspect that the organization of many conservative evangelical southern churches and the fact that they insist in the wife sumission to their husbands might be some of the causes for the higher divorce incidence.
It could be so in some cases. But I do not think it is prevalent, since women already know about this when they marry.
However, when husband abuses this command of God (not necessarily beats the wife, but just "run the show" as if she does not exist), yes, it is a good possibility.

I noticed for example that Catholics and Lutherans are episcopalian in church goverment, liturgical in workship, tend to read the Bible in a critical contextual way, and do not believe in eternal assurance of salvation and put a lot of value on education. I wonder if that might influence the churchgoing couples dynamics in a marriage.
You are very incorrect on one important thing here.

Lutherans believe very strongly in the assurance of salvation.
That in itself eliminates the reason to stay married due to a "fear factor".
They do not "lose salvation" if they divorce.

Thanks,
Ed

[MagnusEmboden]

Lutherans are generally happy people who only get angry when their team loses or at a voter's meeting.

It is built into our theology that we don't have to fix people and that God's grace meets everyone where they are so we should too without judgment, afterall, we're all under the same light.

[resoto]

Lutherans believe very strongly in the assurance of salvation.
But to my knowledge Luther did not understood that as Eternal Security the way the Reformed and Baptist traditions do. Please correctme if I'm wrong.

Thanks for your answers.

[Edial]

But to my knowledge Luther did not understood that as Eternal Security the way the Reformed and Baptist traditions do. Please correctme if I'm wrong.

Thanks for your answers.
Oh no. It is not understood the way Reformers and Baptists do in a context of "losing" salvation.

Reformers are much too theoretical in their view of not being able to lose salvation. They often proclaim if one confesses Christ one is saved and cannot lose that (and there are verses supporting their view).
However, they are at a loss when some of their members leave Christianity for good.

Lutherans say that one is eternally secure once he has Christ and does not willingly and soberly reject Him.

To Lutherans salvation starts with the infant baptism. It is a grace of God that is imparted upon the child.
If the child dies, he/she goes to Heaven because he/she died under the grace of God.

Later on, when he is an adult he has a chance to reject Christ. So, he'll lose salvation.

In real life there are people who just "taste" Christianity with no inner commitment. And when problems come, they refuse going His way and eventually just walk away.
There is a huge difference if a Spirit of God is in a person or not. He changes person's general outlook on life.

To a Christian Christ is not a burden, to a non-Christian who just "tasted" Christ, He could be a burden.

Thanks,
Ed

[BabyLutheran]

Lutherans are generally happy people who only get angry when their team loses or at a voter's meeting.

It is built into our theology that we don't have to fix people and that God's grace meets everyone where they are so we should too without judgment, afterall, we're all under the same light.
Where has this denomination/theology been all my life?!?!?!

Took me 46 years for God to reveal it to me. I guess he waited until he knew I was ready for it!

[CaliforniaJosiah]

Lutherans are generally happy people who only get angry when their team loses or at a voter's meeting.

.



:thumbsup:


(I might add if the coffee is really bad....)

[Edial]

:thumbsup:


(I might add if the coffee is really bad....)
There is no such thing as bad coffee ...
Lutherans might not finish the cup in such cases, but as long as that swirl is in the cup, life goes on ...

[resoto]

Later on, when he is an adult he has a chance to reject Christ. So, he'll lose salvation.

In real life there are people who just "taste" Christianity with no inner commitment. And when problems come, they refuse going His way and eventually just walk away.
There is a huge difference if a Spirit of God is in a person or not. He changes person's general outlook on life.

To a Christian Christ is not a burden, to a non-Christian who just "tasted" Christ, He could be a burden.


I like that, sounds logical to me.