WSJ article on Patr Bartholomew

[Khaleas]

http://online.wsj.com/article/SB120121694727815055.html

I realize this can be quite controversial so I hope it can be kept decent...
I find that Europe is very split on the ecumenical yeehaw. Some are VERY into it and some can't stand it. I also sense a bit of an attitude from the non-Orthodox that they are just waiting and rubbing their hands until they can snare them in based on Ecumenical groups and so. Sometimes he really comes off as the Ecumenical Al Gore...
I'm starting to wonder if some of the issues between the Exarchate (basically a Russian tradition under EP) and Moscow are partially based in the EP's desire to be Ecumenical as well as all the other historical ones.

This is the book btw, on preorder...
http://www.amazon.com/Encountering-Mystery-Understanding-Orthodox-Christianity/dp/0385518137/ref=sr_1_29?ie=UTF8&s=books&qid=1201357845&sr=1-29

[Jacob4707]

Rod Dreher, columnist for the Dallas Morning News (and Orthodox), wrote a blogpost about this:

http://blog.beliefnet.com/crunchycon/2008/01/whistling-past-the-orthodox-gr.html

[Khaleas]

Rod Dreher, columnist for the Dallas Morning News (and Orthodox), wrote a blogpost about this:

http://blog.beliefnet.com/crunchycon/2008/01/whistling-past-the-orthodox-gr.html
Yup, it's listed at the end of the article... I had never heard about the book in his article, so I put it in my Amazon wishlist (more like my Amazon book marathon wishlist)...
I think there might be a Fr Stephen blog about it too... not sure...

[Thekla]

The west has effected a persistent disinterest in the plight of Christians under the Islamic yoke. Consider our response to the massacre of the Armenians. Our interest in befriending Turkey outweighs any sense of responsibility to Christians there. In light of this, what else is the EP to do ? And were he to publish a "diatribe" against Turkish oppression, what would be the repercussion visited on his "dwindling flock" ?


EDIT:

a bit of history from the "Armenian genocide " thread

http://www.thirdworldtraveler.com/Genocide/Young_Turks_SBB.html

[Matrona]

I confess myself annoyed at the reviewers who concentrate on nothing but the EP's situation. We know it's really, really bad for him and the other 4,000 Turkish Christians, but that really doesn't seem to have been the point of his book. Maybe he thinks there are more important things in life than complaining about his lot in it all the time.

Anyway, my hope is that the book will help raise his profile in Europe and perhaps encourage the EU to insist that Turkey actually put its secular ideology into practice by dropping its influence over the Patriarchate.

[Khaleas]

The west has effected a persistent disinterest in the plight of Christians under the Islamic yoke. Consider our response to the massacre of the Armenians. Our interest in befriending Turkey outweighs any sense of responsibility to Christians there. In light of this, what else is the EP to do ? And were he to publish a "diatribe" against Turkish oppression, what would be the repercussion visited on his "dwindling flock" ?


EDIT:

a bit of history from the "Armenian genocide " thread

http://www.thirdworldtraveler.com/Genocide/Young_Turks_SBB.html
There is a Finnish guy in charge of the EU expansion unit right now and there is constant interviews with him in the Finnish papers. The treatment of Christians and Kurds is absolutely the number one issue for the EU not to let Turkey become a member according to him.
I don't exactly agree with the EU on not being concerned with the influx of Muslims... but I'm pretty sure that Turkey would have the same 'immigration/emigration' restrictions as other new EU countries (aka only a certain number are allowed to move within a certain number of years). And studies show that while the view from the outside is that people are going to move in masses, that generally does not happen. They feel safe and comfortable in their own known surroundings and culture.
Not very known in the US but the US gave Turkey a pretty strong sign last year on where they stand. My ex is in the Navy as well and the ship he is on made a visit to Istanbul. No official Turkish government or military folks were invited to the boat, only the Patriarch was an official guest. The Turks were of course going nuts... but I believe (and so did my friend who was in charge of the Patriarch's visit) that this little thing made it much clearer to them than if there had been big official statements back and forth.

[Thekla]

There is a Finnish guy in charge of the EU expansion unit right now and there is constant interviews with him in the Finnish papers. The treatment of Christians and Kurds is absolutely the number one issue for the EU not to let Turkey become a member according to him.
I don't exactly agree with the EU on not being concerned with the influx of Muslims... but I'm pretty sure that Turkey would have the same 'immigration/emigration' restrictions as other new EU countries (aka only a certain number are allowed to move within a certain number of years). And studies show that while the view from the outside is that people are going to move in masses, that generally does not happen. They feel safe and comfortable in their own known surroundings and culture.
Not very known in the US but the US gave Turkey a pretty strong sign last year on where they stand. My ex is in the Navy as well and the ship he is on made a visit to Istanbul. No official Turkish government or military folks were invited to the boat, only the Patriarch was an official guest. The Turks were of course going nuts... but I believe (and so did my friend who was in charge of the Patriarch's visit) that this little thing made it much clearer to them than if there had been big official statements back and forth.
Thank God there is something !

thanks, Khaleas :)

[Philothei]

Jenn, do not be fooled... by this incident... The Turkish Govn't always paints a "nice picture" for themselves... to the American Govn't... itis actions that count...not showy actions but ... the fact they get more ... military support from America than other countries.... speaks volumes about NATO's support to Turkey.....

[Khaleas]

Jenn, do not be fooled... by this incident... The Turkish Govn't always paints a "nice picture" for themselves... to the American Govn't... itis actions that count...not showy actions but ... the fact they get more ... military support from America than other countries.... speaks volumes about NATO's support to Turkey.....
I don't know how you understood the deal, the US Navy ship specifically did not invite anyone from the Turkish government or military, but only the Patriarch.
I realize how the US government feels about Turkey (I'm really surprised they haven't really taken any kind of stand to Turkey bombing northern Iraq, well, I guess I'm not really)... but the fact that they were totally ignored on this visit while the Patriarch wasn't, apparently caused lots of writing in the newspapers etc.
At this point I'd go so far to say that NATO isn't really an 'active' organization right now... the reason why NATO exists right now is that if such an organization would be needed in the future, it's cheaper to keep it going as it is than to stand it up again when needed.

[Philothei]

"I just read the whole article and I am not supprised they would give the book a C minus .... and almost fail it.... why not? why would wall street promote orhtodoxy.... we are against consumerism....and luxury.... and money.... It is so obvious they are trying to cut the Patriarch with a knife... And of course they do not like him and call him "green Patriarch" ... and that he is sitting in the fence since he does not fully supports capitalism.. They are way too obious. They do not mention anything about the persecution of all those 4,000 chirstians.... their faith etc...and His struggle to keep the doors of the Patriarchate open...nice...But like I said I am not supprised.... BTW if you do not mind I will post this article about Prime minister of Greece visiting Turkey....and what they "promised".....

If Karamanlis is genuine about his desire for a total normalization of relations, he will have to realize that at some stage a solution based on compromise from both sides will have to be reached. Will Karamanlis be bold enough to face criticism from within his party and public opinion when the time comes for a compromise solution? Or will he prefer to play for time and use the European Union as leverage in the hope that the Turkish side will become more flexible as its accession process progresses?
Unlike Karamanlis, Recep Tayyip Erdogan seemed a bit more flexible on the traditional Turkish stance concerning the status of the Greek Orthodox patriarch or the reopening of the Orthodox seminary in Halki (Heybeliada). It came for instance as a surprise to Turkish journalists that works were being undertaken to tackle the latter issue. Erdogan’s statement might give a little hope to the Greek side when he said the “ecumenical” title of the patriarch was an issue for the Christian Orthodoxy. At least the rhetoric that the patriarchate is just a Turkish institution has been abandoned. On both issues there is reason to believe that in time the Turkish side will come up with a solution that will be acceptable to all sides."

http://www.ekathimerini.com/kathnews/photos/26-01-08/26-01-08_92605_1.gif



http://www.ekathimerini.com/4dcgi/_w_articles_ell_100002_26/01/2008_92605

And I saw Ertogan on TV that said that all Greeks who have Turkish citizenship are welcome to come back to Turkey.... it is only fair since we have, he said, 150.000 Turkish citizens living in Greece.....

I will try to find that article....later on or tomorrow.


God bless,
Philothei

[Khaleas]

The 'Green Patriarch' isn't WSJ's making... he is well known as the Green Patriarch in Europe, among Orthodox as well as generally...
I guess for us it's a bit like judging the book by its covers as it is not available publicly yet... Who knows, his tone might be this... I've pre ordered it just because I'm curious to how it will compare to WSJ.