Living with sin

[Jim47]

I've wanted to discuss this for a couple weeks now. As Lutherans we all know we remain sinners while still being saints.

Our biggest fear is willful sin, and how it can undermine our faith. Even King David realized this when he wrote the Psalm and said "keep me from willful sin".

Sin is somehing we all carry the burden of, and unlike some churchs we know that sins of thoughts are just as destroying as sins of deeds.

I wished I knew how to conquer sin, but alas I know that Jesus conquered it for me, but my reason for wanting to discuss this is for those who neglect to confess their sins and seek God's forgiveness. This is of course the worst of all sins.

1Jn 1:5 This is the message we have heard from him and declare to you: God is light; in him there is no darkness at all.
1Jn 1:6 If we claim to have fellowship with him yet walk in the darkness, we lie and do not live by the truth.
1Jn 1:7 But if we walk in the light, as he is in the light, we have fellowship with one another, and the blood of Jesus, his Son, purifies us from all sin.
1Jn 1:8 If we claim to be without sin, we deceive ourselves and the truth is not in us.
1Jn 1:9 If we confess our sins, he is faithful and just and will forgive us our sins and purify us from all unrighteousness.
1Jn 1:10 If we claim we have not sinned, we make him out to be a liar and his word has no place in our lives.
1Jn 2:1 My dear children, I write this to you so that you will not sin. But if anybody does sin, we have one who speaks to the Father in our defense—Jesus Christ, the Righteous One.
1Jn 2:2 He is the atoning sacrifice for our sins, and not only for ours but also for the sins of the whole world.


So how do we go about helping those who are unwilling to confess their sins?

I have a number of favorite bible passages that I like, but as my memory is rather dull I forget all too many, so I thought perhaps that we could all pool together our minds and list all the scriptures that will offer help.

[LilLamb219]

Good topic, Jim!! :)

I'm struggling with some horrible sin and appeal to God to force me to stop! He's trying to get me to do it and I keep failing though.

I'd love to see the scripture that others post!

[BigNorsk]

Jim, in what sense do you use "confess". To know that it is sin? Or do you mean they won't enumerate it to others or what?

Marv

[IowaLutheran]

Psalm 32:5 is a good one:

I acknowledged my sin to you,
and I did not cover my iniquity;
I said, "I will confess my transgressions to the LORD,"
and you forgave the iniquity of my sin.

Remember that it is more important to confess that we are sinners by our vary nature as opposed to confessing a list of particular sins because of our incapability to acknowledge and confess all of our sins:

Article XI: Of Confession. 1] Of Confession they teach that Private Absolution ought to be retained in the churches, although in confession 2] an enumeration of all sins is not necessary. For it is impossible according to the Psalm: Who can understand his errors? Ps. 19, 12.



http://www.bookofconcord.org/augsburgconfession.html

[Jim47]

Jim, in what sense do you use "confess". To know that it is sin? Or do you mean they won't enumerate it to others or what?

Marv


Well I think they go hand in hand. Some folks will joke about their sin and make it to be trivial and say others are much worse sinners then themselves. In other words jusitification by saying others are worse, but at the same time refusing to acknowledge their sin to their Pastor or to The Lord.

I know there are have been times when I have not wanted to confess my sins even in private petition to The Lord, but thankfully because of God's grace He convicted me of my sin and I sought His forgiveness.

This type sin is also very commonaly not only a sin against God, but loved ones or freinds as well. So our sin not hurts our own relationship with God but damages others as well .

I of course want to avoid making this a persoanl discussion for anyone. We all face the same problems, but its not about us who have sought God's grace, but those who have not.

[RadMan]

Good topic, Jim!! :)

I'm struggling with some horrible sin and appeal to God to force me to stop! He's trying to get me to do it and I keep failing though.

Ditto here. Mines not "horrible" but it's ongoing.

[RevCowboy]

I like to remind folks that Luther's phrase "simul justus et peccator" means simultaneously justified and a sinner, not sinner and a saint as if often translated. This seems minor, but I think it has huge impacts on how we see ourselves.

If we try to be saints instead of sinners we will doom ourselves to fail. However, if we realize that we are justified or forgiven sinners, we can see that we are free to give up that which holds us back.

The biggest hurdle to overcoming willful sin is forgiving oneself. Having with worked with addicts and drug users and seeing the repetition of this same behaviour, the problem isn't guilt. They have more guilt than can be imagined. The problem is realizing that if God can forgive us, than we too most certainly can forgive ourselves and move on.

Whether addicts or bickering with your spouse or nagging your child, its the same. Forgive yourself and you will surprised that maybe the next time the situation occurs you will think twice about your behaviour.

Folks who laugh it off or justify themselves are simply avoiding both God's forgiveness and thus dealing with their own issues of forgiveness.

[RadMan]

But "go and sin no more" isn't covered by what you mentioned. I have no guilt for past, forgiven sins and God forgives daily. Paul says "we don't sin more to abound in grace more. " The constant fight to alleviate this ongoing sin from our life is the problem. It's like an addiction. For instance someone would say " I know it's a sin to gossip but I can't stop." It's bearing false witness, in some cases, and just won't go away no matter how many times it's confessed and forgiven.

[MarkRohfrietsch]

Ditto here. Mines not "horrible" but it's ongoing.

All sin is "horrible", mine are many and ongoing. I struggle day and night. Without Christ's assurance of forgiveness there would truly be no hope at all.

A particular sin may not be offensive or even harmful to others, but it certanly is to God.

[BabyLutheran]

I have one particular addiction type sin that I constantly struggle with, but have been struggling with less and less each passing day, now that I have listened to God who has graciously pulled me back toward Himself. It is amazing to me that He keeps putting up with me, but I am thankful for it every moment.

[Till]

Whether addicts or bickering with your spouse or nagging your child, its the same. Forgive yourself and you will surprised that maybe the next time the situation occurs you will think twice about your behaviour.


If only it were like this. I have realized in examining myself that I am usually very willing to forgive myself. And do so immediately. That is cheap grace ...

[CaliforniaJosiah]

EXCELLENT thought, my good and suddenly re-staff friend (LOL).....

Just to throw a wrench into things, I sometimes wonder if some troubling sin we can't (um, don't) shake off isn't a good thing in a way..... I mean, being as smart, good, and incredibly handsome as I am, I COULD end up like those Pharisees Jesus so often condemned. EXCEPT for one thing: me. There is the Law working as a mirror, reminding me of the fundamental truth here.....



Just a thought....



Pax!


- Josiah




.

[LilLamb219]

Yeah, CJ, I'm little miss perfect too, so this sin is really holding me back big time from achieving my ultimate goal ;)

But you might have a point there that this really keeps us in check as to who we truly are!

[RevCowboy]

But "go and sin no more" isn't covered by what you mentioned. I have no guilt for past, forgiven sins and God forgives daily. Paul says "we don't sin more to abound in grace more. " The constant fight to alleviate this ongoing sin from our life is the problem. It's like an addiction. For instance someone would say " I know it's a sin to gossip but I can't stop." It's bearing false witness, in some cases, and just won't go away no matter how many times it's confessed and forgiven.

Confession and forgiveness takes true self examination. Its not just forgiving the gossip, but dealing with why one gossips. Whether its a need to be control, or have power. Maybe someone can stop gossiping, but dealing with the root cause will still leave the intention or desire to gossip. Perhaps its easier to talk about someone else's life than to deal with one's own life issues.

[RevCowboy]

If only it were like this. I have realized in examining myself that I am usually very willing to forgive myself. And do so immediately. That is cheap grace ...

That 's cheap forgiveness or not forgiveness at all. Forgiving yourself take the discipline to deal with the issue that causes your sin. We don't act badly for no reason, there is cause. Dealing with the cause is where forgiveness happens.

[RevCowboy]

EXCELLENT thought, my good and suddenly re-staff friend (LOL).....

Just to throw a wrench into things, I sometimes wonder if some troubling sin we can't (um, don't) shake off isn't a good thing in a way..... I mean, being as smart, good, and incredibly handsome as I am, I COULD end up like those Pharisees Jesus so often condemned. EXCEPT for one thing: me. There is the Law working as a mirror, reminding me of the fundamental truth here.....



Just a thought....



Pax!


- Josiah


Its not a good a thing to have some sin you can't shake off. The sin of the Pharisees was pride, they were prideful enough to believe that they could righteous on their own.

[CaliforniaJosiah]

Its not a good a thing to have some sin you can't shake off. The sin of the Pharisees was pride, they were prideful enough to believe that they could righteous on their own.


Point well taken. But I wonder if that pride was the result that they actually thought they were sinless? If so, then looking in the mirror of the Law and seeing a sin serves a good purpose?


Just a thought....




Pax


- Josiah




.

[Radiata]

Ditto here. Mines not "horrible" but it's ongoing.
Same here.

[RevCowboy]

Point well taken. But I wonder if that pride was the result that they actually thought they were sinless? If so, then looking in the mirror of the Law and seeing a sin serves a good purpose?


Just a thought....

Pax


- Josiah

Indeed the Pharisees did think that they were righteous under the law, this is what Paul talks about in Romans 3. Even if we could be righteous under the law, it would not count us a righteous before God or in terms of justification.

The first two functions of the law serve to keep us from hurting others and recognizing when we do. Defining a good purpose however is kind of gray. Without the Gospel, the mirror of the law does mean anything to us. Seeing or not seeing our sin if there is no gospel is the same.

Luther explains it well in his first theses of the Heidelberg Disputation (http://www.augustana.edu/Religion/LutherProject/HEIDELBU/Heidelbergdisputation.htm):
1. The law of God (http://www.augustana.edu/Religion/LutherProject/HEIDELBU/LAW.htm), the most salutary doctrine of life, cannot advance man on his way to righteousness, but rather hinders him. [Proof 1 (http://www.augustana.edu/Religion/LutherProject/HEIDELBU/proofs/Proof%201.htm)]

PS OT: All my posting this morning and afternoon has been while I was waiting around before and after a wedding that I presided at... my first one too! I am glad I could talk about sin otherwise I would have been bored out of my mind...

[BabyLutheran]

Love reading your stuff.

I am the opposite of a Pharisee, I tend to think exactly the opposite: I am so sinful as to be worthless. It can taint your life thinking like this, but I can't seem to stop.

Just as sinful, but not talked about much in the bible that I can see.

[CaliforniaJosiah]

Indeed the Pharisees did think that they were righteous under the law, this is what Paul talks about in Romans 3. Even if we could be righteous under the law, it would not count us a righteous before God or in terms of justification.

The first two functions of the law serve to keep us from hurting others and recognizing when we do. Defining a good purpose however is kind of gray. Without the Gospel, the mirror of the law does mean anything to us. Seeing or not seeing our sin if there is no gospel is the same.

Luther explains it well in his first theses of the Heidelberg Disputation (http://www.augustana.edu/Religion/LutherProject/HEIDELBU/Heidelbergdisputation.htm):
1. The law of God (http://www.augustana.edu/Religion/LutherProject/HEIDELBU/LAW.htm), the most salutary doctrine of life, cannot advance man on his way to righteousness, but rather hinders him. [Proof 1 (http://www.augustana.edu/Religion/LutherProject/HEIDELBU/proofs/Proof%201.htm)]

PS OT: All my posting this morning and afternoon has been while I was waiting around before and after a wedding that I presided at... my first one too! I am glad I could talk about sin otherwise I would have been bored out of my mind...


I wonder if the law crushing us, exposing us, in a sense creates the "opening" for the Gospel?

Of course, if I'm not aware of any sin because I honestly think I don't have any, then why do I need the Gospel or Christ? Could THAT have been part of the Pharisee's "problem?"


Just a thought.....

[DaRev]

I wonder if the law crushing us, exposing us, in a sense creates the "opening" for the Gospel?

Of course, if I'm not aware of any sin because I honestly think I don't have any, then why do I need the Gospel or Christ? Could THAT have been part of the Pharisee's "problem?"


Just a thought.....

This is true. The Pharisees thought that they were in right with God by their observance of the Law. Since they relied on their observance, they saw no point where they were "crushed" by it. They didn't realize that their attempts to observe it were in fact falling short of the perfection that God demands. They couldn't recognize the Law crushing them, thus they couldn't recognize the Gospel when He stared them in the eye.

[Jim47]

EXCELLENT thought, my good and suddenly re-staff friend (LOL).....

Just to throw a wrench into things, I sometimes wonder if some troubling sin we can't (um, don't) shake off isn't a good thing in a way..... I mean, being as smart, good, and incredibly handsome as I am, I COULD end up like those Pharisees Jesus so often condemned. EXCEPT for one thing: me. There is the Law working as a mirror, reminding me of the fundamental truth here.....



Just a thought....



Pax!


- Josiah




.

Yeah, CJ, I'm little miss perfect too, so this sin is really holding me back big time from achieving my ultimate goal ;)

But you might have a point there that this really keeps us in check as to who we truly are!

Point well taken. But I wonder if that pride was the result that they actually thought they were sinless? If so, then looking in the mirror of the Law and seeing a sin serves a good purpose?


Just a thought....




Pax


- Josiah




.



Those are good points indeed. As for me I doubt I will ever live such a pefect life that I would fall for the pharisee syndrom :eek: but it would be nice to entertain the idea for a brief moment.

[Jim47]

Indeed the Pharisees did think that they were righteous under the law, this is what Paul talks about in Romans 3. Even if we could be righteous under the law, it would not count us a righteous before God or in terms of justification.

The first two functions of the law serve to keep us from hurting others and recognizing when we do. Defining a good purpose however is kind of gray. Without the Gospel, the mirror of the law does mean anything to us. Seeing or not seeing our sin if there is no gospel is the same.

Luther explains it well in his first theses of the Heidelberg Disputation (http://www.augustana.edu/Religion/LutherProject/HEIDELBU/Heidelbergdisputation.htm):
1. The law of God (http://www.augustana.edu/Religion/LutherProject/HEIDELBU/LAW.htm), the most salutary doctrine of life, cannot advance man on his way to righteousness, but rather hinders him. [Proof 1 (http://www.augustana.edu/Religion/LutherProject/HEIDELBU/proofs/Proof%201.htm)]

PS OT: All my posting this morning and afternoon has been while I was waiting around before and after a wedding that I presided at... my first one too! I am glad I could talk about sin otherwise I would have been bored out of my mind...



The thing that the Pharisees neglected to look at was the 9th and 10th commandments. Sins of thought or not doing all that we can and should are just as damming as sins of commission. Aside from this, they completely over looked origional sin.

Their attitudes are the same as many churches today, thinking they can achieve holiness in this life.

[Jim47]

I wonder if the law crushing us, exposing us, in a sense creates the "opening" for the Gospel?

Of course, if I'm not aware of any sin because I honestly think I don't have any, then why do I need the Gospel or Christ? Could THAT have been part of the Pharisee's "problem?"


Just a thought.....

This is true. The Pharisees thought that they were in right with God by their observance of the Law. Since they relied on their observance, they saw no point where they were "crushed" by it. They didn't realize that their attempts to observe it were in fact falling short of the perfection that God demands. They couldn't recognize the Law crushing them, thus they couldn't recognize the Gospel when He stared them in the eye.



While this is also true, they really didn't want the salvation promised them in the OT of a Messiah. They really wanted to do it on their own and had fooled themselves into believing they actually could.

[RevCowboy]

I wonder if the law crushing us, exposing us, in a sense creates the "opening" for the Gospel?

Of course, if I'm not aware of any sin because I honestly think I don't have any, then why do I need the Gospel or Christ? Could THAT have been part of the Pharisee's "problem?"


Just a thought.....

The much disputed third use of the law, or as you say being crushed as an opening, is what Luther is writing against in the Heidelberg disputation. The Holy Spirit is the one that creates the "opening" for the Gospel. The law kills and only kills.

As far as the Pharisees, they may have kept the law in as far as they understood it. It wasn't that they weren't aware of some particular sin, but they didn't acknowledge their sinful condition, which is all about the 1st commandment, or trying to be God in God's place. Which incidentally, is the root of our failure to keep the rest of the commandments. It wasn't so much that they saw themselves as sinless but that they were so busy trying to save themselves they forgot all else.

But the Pharisees biggest problem was in their attempt to keep the law, they forgot the point of the law. They forgot that people come before the law and that point is loving God and loving one's neighbour. Instead they created a temple system so rigid and complex that only a few had access to God or salvation. They were trying to hard to save themselves, that they kept their neighbour from salvation.

[DaRev]

The much disputed third use of the law, or as you say being crushed as an opening, is what Luther is writing against in the Heidelberg disputation. The Holy Spirit is the one that creates the "opening" for the Gospel. The law kills and only kills.

I think what he was talking about is the second use, not the "supposed" third use. The Law, as a mirror, shows us our need for Christ. The Holy Spirit uses the word of God's Law as a means of turning us to the Gospel once it has crushed us in our sin.

[RevCowboy]

I think what he was talking about is the second use, not the "supposed" third use. The Law, as a mirror, shows us our need for Christ. The Holy Spirit uses the word of God's Law as a means of turning us to the Gospel once it has crushed us in our sin.

Perhaps I was reading too much into Josiah's question... I probably am looking for people to try to and use the law in the "much disputed" third sense. You are right, his question is really about the second use...

I just wanted to be clear that its the Holy Spirit who moves us to the Gospel and not the law itself.