Mary and the Saints.

[St_Joseph_Cupertino]

Hey guys! Another one from me! :)

I can totally understand the Lutheran point that we are not reliant on Mary or the Saints for salvation, but only through Christ is Salvation given.

However, what is the Lutheran point of view of Mary and the saints, generally speaking?

It is totally forbidden to ask the saints to pray for us (just like I would ask a friend to pray for me) or is it just not common practice?

Same goes for Mary.
If Mary is not key in Salvation (and I understand this), how do Lutherans view her?

Do they see her as sinless (Full of Grace)?
Do they see her at the perpetual virgin (Meaning no more children were born after Christ)?
Do they give her a place of Honour (Not worship or dependent on Salvation), as the Mother of God?

Thanks for the candid answers so far guys! :):)

[Jim47]

However, what is the Lutheran point of view of Mary and the saints, generally speaking?

Everyone who is in Christ is a saint.

Ro 1:5 Through him and for his name’s sake, we received grace and apostleship to call people from among all the Gentiles to the obedience that comes from faith.
Ro 1:6 And you also are among those who are called to belong to Jesus Christ.
Ro 1:7 To all in Rome who are loved by God and called to be saints:
Grace and peace to you from God our Father and from the Lord Jesus Christ.

2Co 1:1 Paul, an apostle of Christ Jesus by the will of God, and Timothy our brother,
To the church of God in Corinth, together with all the saints throughout Achaia:



It is totally forbidden to ask the saints to pray for us (just like I would ask a friend to pray for me) or is it just not common practice?


Jesus taught us to pray to our Father. No where in scripture will you find where we are instructed to pray to anyone but God, God The Father, God the Son, or God The Holy Spirit.

Same goes for Mary.
If Mary is not key in Salvation (and I understand this), how do Lutherans view her?

She is a saint just like we are, nothing more.

Do they see her as sinless (Full of Grace)?
She is sinless now as Jesus took away all her sins, just as He did for us.

Do they see her at the perpetual virgin (Meaning no more children were born after Christ)?

Scripture is not crystal clear on this, many believe she was always a virgin. Myself I would rather pay heed to the scriptures that say Christ has brothers and sisters, as even James was the brother of Christ per scripture.


Do they give her a place of Honour (Not worship or dependent on Salvation), as the Mother of God?


She is honored as the mother of our Savior, but niot in the same way as Catholics hold.

[Studeclunker]

:D Looks like Jim posted whilst I was. His is the superior (as usual;) ) response. Good one Jim!:thumbsup:
I still stand on the below commentary though:


There have been several threads on Mary's virginity. Sadly, all of us can only guess as to her status after Christ's birth. A few people have commented that Joseph probably wouldn't have consumated his union between himself and Mary. That he would possibly consider it a sacrilege. Well, that's one opinion. Personally, they (Joseph and Mary) just might consider it a sin to ignore God's first commandment. Also, keep in mind that Jesus was a completely normal child. Hence, the surprise at his parents finding him in the temple with the scholars and teachers. So, did she remain a virgin? Who knows?

As to praying to the dead? We are never in any of the scriptures instructed to do so. The Saints spoken of in scripture are our predicessors along with you and I. So, why would we be able to be intercessors when we aren't any better than each other. Remember, the RC and to a lesser extent, the Orthodox practice a form of works righteousness (condemned by Paul in several of his epistles). In fact, one of the requirements of sainthood has to do with works. So, I guess Christ's comment about public works is true. These people have recieved their reward here on earth. I really feel sorry for them because they honestly believed in what they were doing. Like Mother Theresa, for instance.

Should we pray to the dead? No. I think it highly likely that they are gone completely out of this world. In C.S. Lewis' books on Narnia, the children find that when they leave our world to Narnia, they find that no matter how long they stay no time at all passes here. Time works differently (according to Lewis's stories) when one leaves this world. It could be just a momentary pause between when, for instance, George Washington enters Heaven and we do.
I should think that the saints and apostles are good examples of Christian piety, charity, and works that we can attempt to emulate. Praying to them, on the other hand is a bad idea. Remember, they are sinful children of Adam and Eve, just like you and I.

[DaRev]

Hey guys! Another one from me! :)

I can totally understand the Lutheran point that we are not reliant on Mary or the Saints for salvation, but only through Christ is Salvation given.

However, what is the Lutheran point of view of Mary and the saints, generally speaking?

It is totally forbidden to ask the saints to pray for us (just like I would ask a friend to pray for me) or is it just not common practice?

Asking someone who is living to pray for us is completely different that asking someone who is deceased. We can communicate with the living fairly easily, but communication with the dead would require the use of prayer, and praying to anyone other than God alone is idolatry and sinful.


Same goes for Mary.
If Mary is not key in Salvation (and I understand this), how do Lutherans view her?


Mary is given the utmost of honor due any human being. She is the mother of God and the ultimate example of living in the faith.

Do they see her as sinless (Full of Grace)?

No. She was a sinful human being as are we all, conceived and born into original sin. She was favored by God for His purpose, but she was in need of a Savior as are we all. Her words in the Magnificat ("...and my spirit rejoices in God, my Savior...")indicate this very well.

Do they see her at the perpetual virgin (Meaning no more children were born after Christ)?

There is no clear teaching in Scripture concerning this. Scripture does indeed tell us that Jesus had brothers and sisters, and His brothers were often in the company of His mother. It is highly likely that she did in fact have other children, but this is not a matter that effects our salvation or our faith.

Do they give her a place of Honour (Not worship or dependent on Salvation), as the Mother of God?

Yes indeed.

[St_Joseph_Cupertino]

Thank you all for the replies!

It's great to get such insight in to the Lutheran beliefs :)

I may have some more questions later, but I think I have covered the most important ones for now :)

[CaliforniaJosiah]

However, what is the Lutheran point of view of Mary and the saints, generally speaking?


1. Lutherans generally regard all Christians as "saints" by grace through faith.

2. My experience is that Lutherans are not nearly as apt to direct attention to the lives of great Christians nearly as much as Catholics do. I don't think they have any "issues" about such, they just don't seem to do it much.

3. As I understand it, at one time (perhaps a couple of hundred years ago), there was not a significant difference between Catholics, Orthodox, Anglicans and Lutherans in terms of our devotion of Our Lady. But, as Catholics have increasingly OBSESSED over this, Protestants seem to have "backed away" (which seems unfortunate to me). At one time, Lutherans prayed the Rosary as much as Catholics (the wording was SLIGHTLY different before the Council of Trent, Lutherans continued the traditional wording) although this has entirely fallen from use.


4. Lutherans do embrace Mary as the Mother of God. But they do not embrace (nor officially deny) the other Marian dogmas.




It is totally forbidden to ask the saints to pray for us (just like I would ask a friend to pray for me) or is it just not common practice?


I THINK this is actually forbidden in the Lutheran Confessions (someone here will correct me if I'm wrong). PERSONALLY, I consider this adiaphoron and agree with what you said. But Lutherans do NOT do it; all prayers are directed to God in Jesus' Name.




Same goes for Mary.
If Mary is not key in Salvation (and I understand this), how do Lutherans view her?


MY experience, they don't talk about her much. She is esteemed for her GREAT faith and honored as the Mother of God, but other than a Sunday in Advent and at Christmas, she's not mentioned much. Lutherans do have the Marian feast days (Announciation, etc.) but I've not seen them celebrated.

PERSONALLY, properly understood, I adore, venerate, revere and worship Our Blessed Lady. And there are former Catholics in my Lutheran parish that speak of her often - and that seems absolutely okay with the pastor and "cradle" Lutherans. But I don't this is really a part of contemporary Lutheranism much - okay, accepted, but not really a part of it.



Do they see her as sinless (Full of Grace)?

I suspect no Lutheran does, but I don't think there is actually a formal position here.


Do they see her at the perpetual virgin?


SOME do; Luther did. I don't. Although I understand this IS at least alluded to in the Confessions, it's not regarded as doctrine.


Do they give her a place of Honour (Not worship or dependent on Salvation), as the Mother of God?

She IS referred to in theology as the Mother of God, but it's not a title in common use among Lutherans.

Yes, she is honored - although I'd sure like to see more focus on her in contemporary Lutheranism.



Thanks for the candid answers so far guys! :):)



Thanks for your respectful questions....



Pax


- Josiah




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[DaRev]

PERSONALLY, I consider this adiaphoron and agree with what you said.

Idolatry is not adiaphoron.


At one time, Lutherans prayed the Rosary as much as Catholics (the wording was SLIGHTLY different before the Council of Trent, Lutherans continued the traditional wording) although this has entirely fallen from use.


The rosary in the Lutheran church has not "entirely fallen from use." Many of us do pray the rosary in one form or another.

[BabyLutheran]

If the dead saints (the people in heaven) can't see us, what is the cloud of witnesses that Paul refers to?

Not trying to be smart, just curious.

[DaRev]

If the dead saints (the people in heaven) can't see us, what is the cloud of witnesses that Paul refers to?

Not trying to be smart, just curious.

Paul didn't mention the "cloud of witnesses." That phrase appears in the book of Hebrews which Paul didn't write.

And it doesn't refer to "people in heaven" who can see us, but refers to the number of "witnesses" of the faith, those who have gone before, whose lives and experiences serve as examples of faith for us.

[CaliforniaJosiah]

Idolatry is not adiaphoron.

I don't think asking someone to pray with us is "idolatry." What I personally think is "adiaphoron" is whether the saints in heaven my be so requested - I just don't see that Scripture explicity states if they may or may not.

BUT as I posted, it IS my impression that this is forbidden in the Lutheran Confessions - as I explicitely stated in my post.

Let's not "go there." This thread is not about our individual views on that topic but rather the official Lutheran position - and I think we both agree on that.



The rosary in the Lutheran church has not "entirely fallen from use." Many of us do pray the rosary in one form or another.


;) Anytime one makes an absolute statement, someone is going to come along and prove there's an exception...

I have a beautiful Rosary and have prayed it with Catholic friends several times. Except for the part added at Trent, I have no personal "issues" with it - except that FOR ME the repetition hinders my spirituality. I did teach my sister and Catholic brother-in-law the "hows" of it.

I learned that it once was very common among Lutherans, but I was informed it had fallen from use. Obviously not entirely!




Thank you!


May all the blessings of the Epiphany season be yours.



- Josiah





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[BabyLutheran]

Paul didn't mention the "cloud of witnesses." That phrase appears in the book of Hebrews which Paul didn't write.

And it doesn't refer to "people in heaven" who can see us, but refers to the number of "witnesses" of the faith, those who have gone before, whose lives and experiences serve as examples of faith for us.
my bad

[DaRev]

I don't think asking someone to pray with us is "idolatry." What I personally think is "adiaphoron" is whether the saints in heaven my be so requested - I just don't see that Scripture explicity states if they may or may not.

I didn't say asking someone to pray for us was idolatry. I said praying to someone who is deceased is. Praying to someone other than God is a violation of the First Commandment.

BUT as I posted, it IS my impression that this is forbidden in the Lutheran Confessions - as I explicitely stated in my post.

It is. And since the Confessions are thoroughly Scriptural...

Let's not "go there." This thread is not about our individual views on that topic but rather the official Lutheran position - and I think we both agree on that.

Well, your post was your "individual view" on the matter. You're the one who "went there". I was merely correcting you. :)

[DaRev]

my bad

Not bad. Asking questions is how we gain understanding. :thumbsup:

[porterross]

I don't pray a Rosary, but I do have a purposely decorative set of beads over my bed. It's dang purdy and the crucifix is subtle, so I couldn't resist! :P

[Protoevangel]

BUT as I posted, it IS my impression that this is forbidden in the Lutheran Confessions - as I explicitely stated in my post.It is. And since the Confessions are thoroughly Scriptural...
Are you absolutely sure? Because all I understand is that it is not required, and is spoken of with agnosticism and a bit of skepticism.

(1)The Twenty-first Article they absolutely condemn, because we do not require the invocation of saints.

(7)These true honors the adversaries do not require. They dispute only concerning invocation, which, even though it would have no danger, nevertheless is not necessary.
I know it's been a while for me, but I don't recall the Lutheran Confessions explicitly forbidding the calling upon (invoking) the Saints.

[DaRev]

I don't pray a Rosary, but I do have a purposely decorative set of beads over my bed. It's dang purdy and the crucifix is subtle, so I couldn't resist! :P

I have one of those, too, in my dining room. ;)

[porterross]

I have one of those, too, in my dining room. ;)


Mine's bigger. :P

[DaRev]

Mine's bigger. :P

Yes it is. :D

[CaliforniaJosiah]

I didn't say asking someone to pray for us was idolatry. I said praying to someone who is deceased is. Praying to someone other than God is a violation of the First Commandment.


Here's what was asked in the opening post:


It is totally forbidden to ask the saints to pray for us (just like I would ask a friend to pray for me) or is it just not common practice?


He said NOTHING about praying TO the saints alive in heaven.


I responded with:


I don't think asking someone to pray with us is "idolatry." What I personally think is "adiaphoron" is whether the saints in heaven my be so requested - I just don't see that Scripture explicity states if they may or may not.


I said nothing about praying TO the sainted alive in heaven. Nor did the opening poster. That's not the issue of this thread. The issue is asking someone to pray with us, including those saints alive in heaven. I don't know if Scripture clearly teaches if the communion of saints alive in heaven pray or not, or if they pray for us or not. I can't think of a verse about that, thus the "adiaphoron" comment.

I did state that it is my understanding that the Confessions to not permit the practice (do you have those statements?).



Thank you.


Pax


- Josiah




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[DaRev]

He said NOTHING about praying TO the saints alive in heaven.

I said nothing about praying TO the sainted alive in heaven. Nor did the opening poster. That's not the issue of this thread. The issue is asking someone to pray with us, including those saints alive in heaven. I don't know if Scripture clearly teaches if the communion of saints alive in heaven pray or not, or if they pray for us or not. I can't think of a verse about that, thus the "adiaphoron" comment.

Then you misunderstood the OP. The question was in regards to "asking" the saints in heaven. How can someone ask someone in heaven anything? I don't think they have telephone connections or internet access in heaven. To communicate with someone in heaven requires prayer. And to pray to someone other than God is idolatry. Plain and simple.

[RevCowboy]

I think we talked about this in another thread.

And its explained quite well in Luther's Smalcald articles. Luther's assume that the saints are praying with us and for the Church. There is no need to invoke them when we have direct access to God in Christ.

26] And although the angels in heaven pray for us (as Christ Himself also does), as also do the saints on earth, and perhaps also in heaven, yet it does not follow thence that we should invoke and adore the angels and saints, and fast, hold festivals, celebrate Mass in their honor, make offerings, and establish churches, altars, divine worship, and in still other ways serve them, and regard them as helpers in need [as patrons and intercessors], and divide among them all kinds of help, and ascribe to each one a particular form of assistance, as the Papists teach and do. For this is idolatry, and such honor belongs alone to God.

[CaliforniaJosiah]

Then you misunderstood the OP.


Here's the relevant quote from the opening post...


It is totally forbidden to ask the saints to pray for us (just like I would ask a friend to pray for me)?



.


Nothing here about praying to the saints, the sole issue is if it is forbidden to ask the saints to pray for us.

If I asked you to pray for me, would I be PRAYING TO you?




How can someone ask someone in heaven anything? I don't think they have telephone connections or internet access in heaven.


THAT is the issue I raised (NOT the opening poster), as personal pious interjection. It is MY humble falliable opinion that we do not know if the saints alive in heaven pray at all or if they are aware of our requests. I stated that I could not think of any Scriptures that explicitely and clearly answer that - one way or the other - thus it's adiaphoron. If you are aware of a corpus of Scripture that specifically states that the saints alive in heaven cannot or do not pray, or cannot or do not know our needs or requests, then I'd WELCOME and INVITE that corpus that specifically addresses that. Thank you, sir. Otherwise....



The bottom line, as we all seem to agree, is that this practice of requesting the saints alive in heaven to pray FOR us, is one the Confessions forbid. As I stated.



Thank you!!!


Pax!


- Josiah




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[DaRev]

Nothing here about praying to the saints, the sole issue is if it is forbidden to ask the saints to pray for us.

If I asked you to pray for me, would I be PRAYING TO you?

The OP is Roman Catholic. His question was in regards to invoking the saints in heaven since the RCC only classifies one a saint who is deceased. The only way to ask the deceased in heaven anything is to pray. And as I have stated numerous times, praying to anyone other than God is idolatry. And since idolatry is not a matter of adiaphora, praying to the saints in heaven is not a matter of adiaphora. Plain and simple.

And, of course, you asking me to pray for you is not a matter of idolatry since you don't have to pray to me in order to ask, You can simply ask... and of course I will say yes.

The bottom line, as we all seem to agree, is that this practice of requesting the saints alive in heaven to pray FOR us, is one the Confessions forbid. As I stated.

And, as I stated, the Confessions are thoroughly Scriptural. The basis for their forbidding the invocation of the deceased saints is founded in the First Commandment, which is found in a couple places in Scripture. I'm sure you can find them if you look.

[CaliforniaJosiah]

DaRev,

I think you and I are talking past each other, about different things. I guess it's up to the opening poster as to which is addressing his thought....

In any case, I think the Confessions are clear on this, and I do think that was his primary concern.


Thank you for taking the time to express your thoughts. It is highly respected and deeply appreciated.


Blessings!



- Josiah





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[DaRev]

DaRev,

I think you and I are talking past each other, about different things. I guess it's up to the opening poster as to which is addressing his thought....

In any case, I think the Confessions are clear on this, and I do think that was his primary concern.


Thank you for taking the time to express your thoughts. It is highly respected and deeply appreciated.


Blessings!



- Josiah





.

You may be right. It's been adequately explained and I believe he understands the Lutheran view.

[St_Joseph_Cupertino]

You may be right. It's been adequately explained and I believe he understands the Lutheran view.

Thank you, yes it has and I do :)

[tz620q]

[quote=DaRev;42997817]The OP is Roman Catholic. His question was in regards to invoking the saints in heaven since the RCC only classifies one a saint who is deceased.[quote]

Actually the Roman Catholic view of who are saints is very close to the Lutheran view. From the Catechism

946 After confessing "the holy catholic Church," the Apostles' Creed adds "the communion of saints." In a certain sense this article is a further explanation of the preceding: "What is the Church if not the assembly of all the saints?" The communion of saints is the Church.

What is the Lutheran view on what happens to the living on earth (Church Militant) saints when they become living in heaven (Church Triumphant) saints?

Now Saints with a capital S is another discussion.

With Brotherly Love

[Protoevangel]

I think we talked about this in another thread.

And its explained quite well in Luther's Smalcald articles. Luther's assume that the saints are praying with us and for the Church. There is no need to invoke them when we have direct access to God in Christ.

26] And although the angels in heaven pray for us (as Christ Himself also does), as also do the saints on earth, and perhaps also in heaven, yet it does not follow thence that we should invoke and adore the angels and saints, and fast, hold festivals, celebrate Mass in their honor, make offerings, and establish churches, altars, divine worship, and in still other ways serve them, and regard them as helpers in need [as patrons and intercessors], and divide among them all kinds of help, and ascribe to each one a particular form of assistance, as the Papists teach and do. For this is idolatry, and such honor belongs alone to God.
Thanks for this. I missed it before... I just figured DaRev was ignoring me again, but now I see he didn't need to answer me, because you already did.

[Radiata]

I need to go off on a tangent. Returning to Mary and if she had any other children, there was that box that had "James son of Joseph brother of Jesus" on it that was found in 2002. I don't know how the final verdict came out, whether it was a fake, or genuine. But if it is real, then Jesus did have a blood brother.

[DaRev]

I need to go off on a tangent. Returning to Mary and if she had any other children, there was that box that had "James son of Joseph brother of Jesus" on it that was found in 2002. I don't know how the final verdict came out, whether it was a fake, or genuine. But if it is real, then Jesus did have a blood brother.

I believe it had been determined that the ossuary was not authentic.

There is Biblical evidence that suggests that Jesus had brothers and sisters. Whether they were half-siblings or step-siblings is a matter of speculation.

[Protoevangel]

I need to go off on a tangent. Returning to Mary and if she had any other children, there was that box that had "James son of Joseph brother of Jesus" on it that was found in 2002. I don't know how the final verdict came out, whether it was a fake, or genuine. But if it is real, then Jesus did have a blood brother.
It was a fake, and let to several criminal indictments of men running an antiquities forgery ring in late 2004 / early 2005.

[Radiata]

It was a fake, and let to several criminal indictments of men running an antiquities forgery ring in late 2004 / early 2005.
Really? 3 years later?

[Melethiel]

I need to go off on a tangent. Returning to Mary and if she had any other children, there was that box that had "James son of Joseph brother of Jesus" on it that was found in 2002. I don't know how the final verdict came out, whether it was a fake, or genuine. But if it is real, then Jesus did have a blood brother.
As others have mentioned, it's a fake. Not to mention that those were all extremely common names at the time. It's like seeing a gravestone with "Joe son of Bill brother of Jake".

[Protoevangel]

As others have mentioned, it's a fake. Not to mention that those were all extremely common names at the time. It's like seeing a gravestone with "Joe son of Bill brother of Jake".
Ooo! That PROVES that Jake had a brother! I KNEW it! ;)

[DaRev]

Ooo! That PROVES that Jake had a brother! I KNEW it! ;)

Yeah, but Jake who?? ^_^

[Protoevangel]

Really? 3 years later?
Yea, here's one article on it: http://news.bbc.co.uk/2/hi/middle_east/4133065.stm

I had a link to the official report, but it looks like the IAA has changed the arrangement of their website. My bookmark doesn't work anymore... I really don't have the energy to track it down now.