Greek Scientists Discover Ninth Tone

[Protoevangel]

Greek Scientists Discover Ninth Tone

January, 2008

Athens, Greece — In an exciting move unprecedented in Orthodox history, scientists at the University of Athens this week discovered a ninth Orthodox hymnographic tone, where only eight were believed to exist for well over a thousand years.
Read the whole story (http://theoniondome.com/2008/01/alex/)

[Mary of Bethany]

:D Exxxxxcellent.

Mary

[Protoevangel]

The best part of the story:

"Is God wanting us to use all of our fingers to make sign of cross? No, God was happy when we used two. We were happy when we used two. Then you Greeks were insisting we use three. Like fools we listened to you. Then, after you gave us finger, we had big schism. So we are NOT adding new tone."

[nutroll]

That would just prove that the Greeks are behind the times. I've accidentally discovered the ninth tone on numerous occasions. I'm not entirely sure, but I may have even discovered the tenth tone a couple times.

[Nickolai]

The best part is that in the little bit ragging on St. Vlad's and St. Tikhon's, he mentions us not having any sports teams. Vlad's actually just challenged us to a basketball game on Feb 23. LOL We'll see who's the better school then!

[stivvy]

Hehe, that was funny.

[Vasileios]

That would just prove that the Greeks are behind the times. I've accidentally discovered the ninth tone on numerous occasions. I'm not entirely sure, but I may have even discovered the tenth tone a couple times.

Ah, the famous Red Tone! Very popular in many parishes!

[fuerein]

That would just prove that the Greeks are behind the times. I've accidentally discovered the ninth tone on numerous occasions. I'm not entirely sure, but I may have even discovered the tenth tone a couple times.
If my dad were to become Orthodox I'm pretty sure he'd find the 29th tone, a nice little tone for him but few others would find it, shall we say, melodious. (note: in all honesty my father readily admits to being a horrible, terrible singer)

[SeraphimSarov]

This is one of the most amazing articles from them I've seen in awhile. :D

[Mary of Bethany]

That would just prove that the Greeks are behind the times. I've accidentally discovered the ninth tone on numerous occasions. I'm not entirely sure, but I may have even discovered the tenth tone a couple times.

LOL! Yeah, I think I've heard that one before, too!

Mary

[Philothei]

"deleted

[Philothei]

deleted

[ThePilgrim]

BTW who was orthodox first and who missionised to the slavs? some respect would be appropriate here....
Philothei, that isn't a serious article. It's written by someone who is neither Russian nor Greek. It's meant to be silly and funny. :-)

John

[Protoevangel]

Father Vasiliy is a fictitious, borderline schismatic. He is funny because of his over the top legalism, his fake russian accent (he never lived in Russia, he got it from some "...learn how to speak with a fake Russian accent..." course, and his warped sense of history. In no way is his ranting ever to be construed as an attack on any of the canonical Churches or practices. Father Vasiliy is the comic and the straight-man both; the Penn and the Teller, all wrapped up in one package.

Please don't read any maliciousness into the "news" stories.

[ClementofRome]

To be sure, I sing the undiscovered tone weekly! :)

[SeraphimSarov]

Father Vasiliy is a fictitious, borderline schismatic. He is funny because of his over the top legalism, his fake russian accent (he never lived in Russia, he got it from some "...learn how to speak with a fake Russian accent..." course, and his warped sense of history. In no way is his ranting ever to be construed as an attack on any of the canonical Churches or practices. Father Vasiliy is the comic and the straight-man both; the Penn and the Teller, all wrapped up in one package.

Please don't read any maliciousness into the "news" stories.
If anything, this article is mocking the views that are offending Philothei. They sound extremely disrespectful and stupid because that's exactly what the writer means for you to think about them.

[Michael the Iconographer]

The Reader Alexis is hilarious! Long live The Onion Dome!

[Philothei]

[edit}

[rusmeister]

It's incredibly easy to misunderstand tone and intent online. I know - I've done it lots of times! Please try to cut each other some slack!

I don't think the intent of the OP is disrespect.

I remember an old 'Mork and Mindy' episode where Mork (a young Robin Williams) says "Humor. A difficult concept. Hah hah hah."

[Michael the Iconographer]

That would just prove that the Greeks are behind the times. I've accidentally discovered the ninth tone on numerous occasions. I'm not entirely sure, but I may have even discovered the tenth tone a couple times.
That is ok you have discovered the ninth tone on many occasion because on one occasion I came very close to inventing a new rank of saints when inscribing an icon. I had written an Onion Dome style story describing it about 4 years ago but my then (now ex) wife did not get the humor, accused me of sacrilege and ordered me to destroy it. UGH.

[Michael the Iconographer]

Philothei, et all, I can assure you the intent of The Onion Dome is not to offend but rather to reveal some of the more silly things we as Orthodox Christians do. I know this because I have had several email conversations with the Reader Alexis who is a devout man, but who also has a great sense of humor.

[Michael the Iconographer]

Perhaps the Reader Alexis is using this Onion Dome article to show the silliness of the Nikhon Schism of the 16th Century which saw the creation of the Old Believers and is not actually meaning to poke fun at the Greek people at all?!

[Xpycoctomos]

I have a serious question. Regarding the tone, to Orthodox tones differ in that they follow a different pattern (or melody) rather than a different key? I guess before being Orthdoox I always thought of a tone as like, pitch or a key. But, to be honest, I can't tell one week from the other what tone we're in except that I notice the melodies and arrangements differ.

Does any one understand my question? Sorry, I'm not very educated in music. Thanks.

Xpy

[Mary of Bethany]

I can't speak for Byzantine tones, but the Russian/Slavic tones (at least for stichera and Tropar/Kondak) that we use are all in the same key. It's the "tune" that changes.

Mary

[Anhelyna]

All I can say is that the Chanter in my parish is very fond of Bulgarian Tone 9 :(

I suspect that most of the Parish don't realise what it is - but after a couple of weeks I twigged.

Still - he really is doing his best and we have no-one else who will make the effort .

I'm slowly learning to chant the Epistle - but I have still to buckle down to learning the Oetochos - and I suspect it will take some time.

[Vasileios]

I have a serious question. Regarding the tone, to Orthodox tones differ in that they follow a different pattern (or melody) rather than a different key? I guess before being Orthdoox I always thought of a tone as like, pitch or a key. But, to be honest, I can't tell one week from the other what tone we're in except that I notice the melodies and arrangements differ.

Does any one understand my question? Sorry, I'm not very educated in music. Thanks.

Xpy
(using greek terms transliterated in english and having in mind that I'm a complete amateur bear with me!)

Well, in western music there is one fundamental step between notes: the semitone. That is, the difference between a C and a C# is a semitone, the pitch gets higher by a semitone. The difference between a C and a D is therefore a tone. Imagine the semitone as the fundamental brick to build up music, or more accurately as the distance between the steps in a ladder, where each step is a musical tone.

In the piano you can picture this as a white key and the
black one next to it. In the place where there are two white keys next to each other, that difference is also a semitone.

Now, assuming I got your question right, that pattern you talk about should be similar to the idea of scales. In western music the two basic ones are major and minor (the major sound "happy", while the minor "sad" or "eastern").

The "recipe" for the basic major scales is standard: Tone, tone, semitone, tone, tone, tone, semitone. Which, again if you look at a piano, the C major scale is all the white keys between two C notes.
If you apply that recipe but starting a different pitch, say D, you get the D major scale and so on.

Now, the deal with the byzantine tones (which is a translation of "echos", which actually means sound, not to be confused with the tone I was talking about earlier), is that the smallest step in the musical ladder is not the semitone. The semitone is actually 6 cents (a measurement of frequency I am told!) but in the byzantine scales there are steps of 2, 4, 6, 8, 10 and 12 cents.

So, to bring that image of the ladder again. Imagine the western ladder with nice, even steps of semitones. Now, next to it, the byzantine ladder looks simply weird. The space between some steps is larger and in others smaller. Also, and that's another headache, while going down the ladder in some tones, the space shifts!

Some byzantine tones (coming to your original question hopefully!), share the same recipe. There is a change in pitch or key but the ladder steps are the same distance. But in other tones, the ladder is completely different, shifted by 2 cents here, 4 cents there etc.

There is another flavour for the third tone and the first tone. And the thing is, this minute adjustment of steps means that basically a piano can never immitate a byzantine scale, because all its notes are tuned to semitone 6 cent steps. Which is why traditional chanters take a Fr. Vasily stance with chanters who practice with the piano. The chanting ends sounding western.

The thing is, although some claim that the human ear basically catches the difference between 6 cents and any less sounds pretty much the same to him, the truth is you can actually do hear the difference between a human voice chanting a hymn and hearing it on the piano. The melody just doesn't sit very well in the first case. At least this should be the case for those with reasonably good ears, let alone perfect-pitch people (which I am not and I can still hear the difference easily).

Another implication is that combining byzantine scales is a no-no, it is strictly monophonic. By simplifying the music fundamental brick to 6 cents, the road to combining scales and voices opened widely, hence the rich polyphonic music of the west. The note frequencies coincide. A C is always the same C, in any scale.

In byzantine music you cannot do that. A "Ni" (the equivalent of a C) is not always the same between tones. And the same goes for the rest of the notes.

OK. I am pretty sure nobody understood a single thing
I wrote and I am even more sure that those with musial training cringed at the mistakes I've made.

I needed a break, sorry! :P

[fuerein]

Wow Vasileios... My head hurts. Probably would be better if I knew more about any music theory, but still, interesting explanation.

[Vasileios]

I think I would do better if it was in person and I had a piano in front of me :P

[Xpycoctomos]

(using greek terms transliterated in english and having in mind that I'm a complete amateur bear with me!)

Well, in western music there is one fundamental step between notes: the semitone. That is, the difference between a C and a C# is a semitone, the pitch gets higher by a semitone. The difference between a C and a D is therefore a tone. Imagine the semitone as the fundamental brick to build up music, or more accurately as the distance between the steps in a ladder, where each step is a musical tone.

In the piano you can picture this as a white key and the
black one next to it. In the place where there are two white keys next to each other, that difference is also a semitone.

Now, assuming I got your question right, that pattern you talk about should be similar to the idea of scales. In western music the two basic ones are major and minor (the major sound "happy", while the minor "sad" or "eastern").

The "recipe" for the basic major scales is standard: Tone, tone, semitone, tone, tone, tone, semitone. Which, again if you look at a piano, the C major scale is all the white keys between two C notes.
If you apply that recipe but starting a different pitch, say D, you get the D major scale and so on.

Now, the deal with the byzantine tones (which is a translation of "echos", which actually means sound, not to be confused with the tone I was talking about earlier), is that the smallest step in the musical ladder is not the semitone. The semitone is actually 6 cents (a measurement of frequency I am told!) but in the byzantine scales there are steps of 2, 4, 6, 8, 10 and 12 cents.

So, to bring that image of the ladder again. Imagine the western ladder with nice, even steps of semitones. Now, next to it, the byzantine ladder looks simply weird. The space between some steps is larger and in others smaller. Also, and that's another headache, while going down the ladder in some tones, the space shifts!

Some byzantine tones (coming to your original question hopefully!), share the same recipe. There is a change in pitch or key but the ladder steps are the same distance. But in other tones, the ladder is completely different, shifted by 2 cents here, 4 cents there etc.

There is another flavour for the third tone and the first tone. And the thing is, this minute adjustment of steps means that basically a piano can never immitate a byzantine scale, because all its notes are tuned to semitone 6 cent steps. Which is why traditional chanters take a Fr. Vasily stance with chanters who practice with the piano. The chanting ends sounding western.

The thing is, although some claim that the human ear basically catches the difference between 6 cents and any less sounds pretty much the same to him, the truth is you can actually do hear the difference between a human voice chanting a hymn and hearing it on the piano. The melody just doesn't sit very well in the first case. At least this should be the case for those with reasonably good ears, let alone perfect-pitch people (which I am not and I can still hear the difference easily).

Another implication is that combining byzantine scales is a no-no, it is strictly monophonic. By simplifying the music fundamental brick to 6 cents, the road to combining scales and voices opened widely, hence the rich polyphonic music of the west. The note frequencies coincide. A C is always the same C, in any scale.

In byzantine music you cannot do that. A "Ni" (the equivalent of a C) is not always the same between tones. And the same goes for the rest of the notes.

OK. I am pretty sure nobody understood a single thing
I wrote and I am even more sure that those with musial training cringed at the mistakes I've made.

I needed a break, sorry! :P
Thank you so much. I understood enough to know that I need to speak to someone in person. Seriously, I could tell that your response was well thought out. It's just me and I am not saying that just to make you feel better. Your explanation will help me form better questions when I ask someone in person. Thanks again!

Xpy

[nikolayalexandroff]

Greek Scientists Discover Ninth Tone

January, 2008

Athens, Greece — In an exciting move unprecedented in Orthodox history, scientists at the University of Athens this week discovered a ninth Orthodox hymnographic tone, where only eight were believed to exist for well over a thousand years.Read the whole story (http://theoniondome.com/2008/01/alex/)
We know eight tones only. The ninth tone looks like filioque! Beware! Every extra finger - one more schism.http://nesusvet.narod.ru/txt/pic/orthodox_ico/two_fingers_2.gif And every extra tone either.;)
http://www.google.com/imgres?imgurl=http://library.thinkquest.org/04oct/01854/img_to_cont/2/2/boyarB.jpg&imgrefurl=http://library.thinkquest.org/04oct/01854/rus/2/2.htm&h=395&w=800&sz=84&hl=en&start=3&sig2=59Xfay4tme5P1Oj6NnolZg&tbnid=CGno5hOO9wMFAM:&tbnh=71&tbnw=143&ei=BsWgR6yeL4yM-QLilfTQDA&prev=/images%3Fq%3D%25D0%2591%25D0%25BE%25D1%258F%25D1%2580%25D1%258B%25D0%25BD%25D1%258F%2B%25D0%259C%25D0%25BE%25D1%2580%25D0%25BE%25D0%25B7%25D0%25BE%25D0%25B2%25D0%25B0%26svnum%3D10%26hl%3Den%26rlz%3D1B3GGGL_enRU256RU256

[Michael the Iconographer]

We know eight tones only. The ninth tone looks like filioque! Beware! Every extra finger - one more schism.http://nesusvet.narod.ru/txt/pic/orthodox_ico/two_fingers_2.gif And every extra tone either.;)
http://www.google.com/imgres?imgurl=http://library.thinkquest.org/04oct/01854/img_to_cont/2/2/boyarB.jpg&imgrefurl=http://library.thinkquest.org/04oct/01854/rus/2/2.htm&h=395&w=800&sz=84&hl=en&start=3&sig2=59Xfay4tme5P1Oj6NnolZg&tbnid=CGno5hOO9wMFAM:&tbnh=71&tbnw=143&ei=BsWgR6yeL4yM-QLilfTQDA&prev=/images%3Fq%3D%25D0%2591%25D0%25BE%25D1%258F%25D1%2580%25D1%258B%25D0%25BD%25D1%258F%2B%25D0%259C%25D0%25BE%25D1%2580%25D0%25BE%25D0%25B7%25D0%25BE%25D0%25B2%25D0%25B0%26svnum%3D10%26hl%3Den%26rlz%3D1B3GGGL_enRU256RU256
That is my point exactly! Looks like another Old Believers Schism in the making to me! :D

[Prawnik]

FWIW, up until about the time of J.S. Bach, western music also did not have "even" or "tempered" intervals between notes.

This is why Early Music played on original instruments may sound a bit "off" to modern ears. Arab or Indian music also is not "tempered" - this is why the frets on a sitar are not spaced at regular intervals like on a guitar.

[Michael the Iconographer]

We know eight tones only. The ninth tone looks like filioque! Beware! Every extra finger - one more schism.http://nesusvet.narod.ru/txt/pic/orthodox_ico/two_fingers_2.gif And every extra tone either.;)
http://www.google.com/imgres?imgurl=http://library.thinkquest.org/04oct/01854/img_to_cont/2/2/boyarB.jpg&imgrefurl=http://library.thinkquest.org/04oct/01854/rus/2/2.htm&h=395&w=800&sz=84&hl=en&start=3&sig2=59Xfay4tme5P1Oj6NnolZg&tbnid=CGno5hOO9wMFAM:&tbnh=71&tbnw=143&ei=BsWgR6yeL4yM-QLilfTQDA&prev=/images%3Fq%3D%25D0%2591%25D0%25BE%25D1%258F%25D1%2580%25D1%258B%25D0%25BD%25D1%258F%2B%25D0%259C%25D0%25BE%25D1%2580%25D0%25BE%25D0%25B7%25D0%25BE%25D0%25B2%25D0%25B0%26svnum%3D10%26hl%3Den%26rlz%3D1B3GGGL_enRU256RU256
Can I schism over oil-painted icons as well? ;)

[nikolayalexandroff]

Can I schism over oil-painted icons as well? ;)
If you please!

[SeraphimSarov]

I just schismed with all of you schismatics.

[Nickolai]

(using greek terms transliterated in english and having in mind that I'm a complete amateur bear with me!)

Well, in western music there is one fundamental step between notes: the semitone. That is, the difference between a C and a C# is a semitone, the pitch gets higher by a semitone. The difference between a C and a D is therefore a tone. Imagine the semitone as the fundamental brick to build up music, or more accurately as the distance between the steps in a ladder, where each step is a musical tone.

In the piano you can picture this as a white key and the
black one next to it. In the place where there are two white keys next to each other, that difference is also a semitone.

Now, assuming I got your question right, that pattern you talk about should be similar to the idea of scales. In western music the two basic ones are major and minor (the major sound "happy", while the minor "sad" or "eastern").

The "recipe" for the basic major scales is standard: Tone, tone, semitone, tone, tone, tone, semitone. Which, again if you look at a piano, the C major scale is all the white keys between two C notes.
If you apply that recipe but starting a different pitch, say D, you get the D major scale and so on.

Now, the deal with the byzantine tones (which is a translation of "echos", which actually means sound, not to be confused with the tone I was talking about earlier), is that the smallest step in the musical ladder is not the semitone. The semitone is actually 6 cents (a measurement of frequency I am told!) but in the byzantine scales there are steps of 2, 4, 6, 8, 10 and 12 cents.

So, to bring that image of the ladder again. Imagine the western ladder with nice, even steps of semitones. Now, next to it, the byzantine ladder looks simply weird. The space between some steps is larger and in others smaller. Also, and that's another headache, while going down the ladder in some tones, the space shifts!

Some byzantine tones (coming to your original question hopefully!), share the same recipe. There is a change in pitch or key but the ladder steps are the same distance. But in other tones, the ladder is completely different, shifted by 2 cents here, 4 cents there etc.

There is another flavour for the third tone and the first tone. And the thing is, this minute adjustment of steps means that basically a piano can never immitate a byzantine scale, because all its notes are tuned to semitone 6 cent steps. Which is why traditional chanters take a Fr. Vasily stance with chanters who practice with the piano. The chanting ends sounding western.

The thing is, although some claim that the human ear basically catches the difference between 6 cents and any less sounds pretty much the same to him, the truth is you can actually do hear the difference between a human voice chanting a hymn and hearing it on the piano. The melody just doesn't sit very well in the first case. At least this should be the case for those with reasonably good ears, let alone perfect-pitch people (which I am not and I can still hear the difference easily).

Another implication is that combining byzantine scales is a no-no, it is strictly monophonic. By simplifying the music fundamental brick to 6 cents, the road to combining scales and voices opened widely, hence the rich polyphonic music of the west. The note frequencies coincide. A C is always the same C, in any scale.

In byzantine music you cannot do that. A "Ni" (the equivalent of a C) is not always the same between tones. And the same goes for the rest of the notes.

OK. I am pretty sure nobody understood a single thing
I wrote and I am even more sure that those with musial training cringed at the mistakes I've made.

I needed a break, sorry! :P

No, it was easily understandable, at least I understood it.

Byzantine Chant is a completely different animal in comparison to modern Russian music.





P.S. Can we please stop making fun of the Old Believer Schism? That was one of the greatest tragedies to befall the Russian Church. There's nothing silly about it.