Vle045

[LutheranHawkeye]

I just read the post on here where Vle045 stated that she would play the "devil's advocate" for awhile on the issue of abortion. Basically what I saw disgusted me. It got twisted and turned into an attack on her because all she wanted to say was that a Christian can be pro-choice and still be Christian. I may only be 19 and I've posted many hurtful things on here, but I have NEVER driven someone away from these forums. I'm ashamed at the way the WELS and LCMS members acted towards her. So being a confessional Lutheran isn't enough? We have to be Republican too? I have considered myself Republican for a long time, but frankly I'm tired of having to vote for terrible leaders because they are pro-life. I'm over it. Do you really want the confessional Lutheran churches to turn into just another evangelical denomination? Most of the people on that post could mark Republican as their religion. Sad, that was me once. Anyway Vle I'm sorry for everything that happened to you on this forum, you definitley did not deserve what happened to you. Godbless you.

[LilLamb219]

I don't know what thread you're referring to. Care to post a link for the uninformed?

[DaRev]

Being anti-abortion has nothing to do with being "pro-Republican". It has to do with acknowledging God's word that life begins at conception and the 5th Commandment, "Thou shall not murder." I am not a Republican but as a Christian I am VERY anti-abortion on demand.

[seajoy]

I just read the post on here where Vle045 stated that she would play the "devil's advocate" for awhile on the issue of abortion. Basically what I saw disgusted me. It got twisted and turned into an attack on her because all she wanted to say was that a Christian can be pro-choice and still be Christian. I may only be 19 and I've posted many hurtful things on here, but I have NEVER driven someone away from these forums. I'm ashamed at the way the WELS and LCMS members acted towards her. So being a confessional Lutheran isn't enough? We have to be Republican too? I have considered myself Republican for a long time, but frankly I'm tired of having to vote for terrible leaders because they are pro-life. I'm over it. Do you really want the confessional Lutheran churches to turn into just another evangelical denomination? Most of the people on that post could mark Republican as their religion. Sad, that was me once. Anyway Vle I'm sorry for everything that happened to you on this forum, you definitley did not deserve what happened to you. Godbless you.
You are tired of voting for terrible Republicans? You are only 19, which means you have been voting for all of one year. :doh:

Anyway, abortion is wrong. We don't tip toe around in here to 'keep' others from leaving. What God's Word says, is what God's Word says. Plain and simple.

Several of us asked her to stay. No one told her to leave. She didn't hear what she wanted to hear. That is the truth of it.

[DaRev]

You are tired of voting for terrible Republicans? You are only 19, which means you have voting for all of one year. :doh:

Anyway, abortion is wrong. We don't tip toe around in here to 'keep' others from leaving. What God's Word says, is what God's Word says. Plain and simple.

Several of us asked her to stay. No one told her to leave. She didn't hear what she wanted to hear. That is the truth of it.

This is true. We do not compromise God's word for the sake of "filling the pews" so-to-speak. That's what the ELCA and other liberal churces do.

And I still don't understand how a Confessional Lutheran can be pro-murder.

[LutheranHawkeye]

I don't know what thread you're referring to. Care to post a link for the uninformed?
what is that they are promoting deeper fellow junk? (http://christianforums.com/t6687132-what-is-that-they-are-promoting-deeper-fellow-junk.html)

[LutheranHawkeye]

This is true. We do not compromise God's word for the sake of "filling the pews" so-to-speak. That's what the ELCA and other liberal churces do.

And I still don't understand how a Confessional Lutheran can be pro-murder.
You'd rather push people away who are looking for the Truth? I am pro-life aswell, but in that post Preacher's wife said that you cannot be a Christian and be pro-choice, and not one person argued otherwise. Christ died for all. Or did Christ only die for Confessional Lutherans?

[seajoy]

What are you hoping to gain from your questions? That you are a nicer guy than the rest of us?

We aren't going to change our minds on how we feel about abortion, because God doesn't change.

She stated she was playing devil's advocate, but that is not what she did.

Give it up, Nordic.

[porterross]

If someone is going to post their position on an issue, they should be willing to accept that others will do the same. God's laws are black and white. There are no grey areas no matter how many other denominations might present them in order to fill stadium seats.

I didn't see any disrespectful posts, only a VISITOR to the Confessional sub-forum who couldn't handle the debate she got herself into. Liberal thinking and reliance on social policy for what might be right or wrong is a slippery slope for a Christian. Christians are in this world, but not supposed to of this world, remember?

[MarkRohfrietsch]

If someone is going to post their position on an issue, they should be willing to accept that others will do the same. God's laws are black and white. There are no grey areas no matter how many other denominations might present them in order to fill stadium seats.

I didn't see any disrespectful posts, only a VISITOR to the Confessional sub-forum who couldn't handle the debate she got herself into. Liberal thinking and reliance on social policy for what might be right or wrong is a slippery slope for a Christian. Christians are in this world, but not supposed to of this world, remember?

What she said above....

Mark

[Protoevangel]

I just read the post on here where Vle045 stated that she would play the "devil's advocate" for awhile on the issue of abortion. Basically what I saw disgusted me. It got twisted and turned into an attack on her because all she wanted to say was that a Christian can be pro-choice and still be Christian. I may only be 19 and I've posted many hurtful things on here, but I have NEVER driven someone away from these forums. I'm ashamed at the way the WELS and LCMS members acted towards her. So being a confessional Lutheran isn't enough? We have to be Republican too? I have considered myself Republican for a long time, but frankly I'm tired of having to vote for terrible leaders because they are pro-life. I'm over it. Do you really want the confessional Lutheran churches to turn into just another evangelical denomination? Most of the people on that post could mark Republican as their religion. Sad, that was me once. Anyway Vle I'm sorry for everything that happened to you on this forum, you definitley did not deserve what happened to you. Godbless you.
I'm sorry the truth disgusts you.

[BreadAlone]

The legalized murder of 4,000 people every year is not something I'm personally willing to waver on.

[LilLamb219]

Here are quotes from the LCMS and WELS sites on the stances of the two synods respectively.

Since this is a sub-forum which is protected by our guidelines that does not accept debate (that is for the main TCL forum), her posts were careless and disrespectful to the members here in this forum.

Abortion

Q. What is the Missouri Synod's view of abortion?
A. The LCMS believes that abortion is contrary to God's Word and "is not a moral option except, except as a tragically unavoidable byproduct of medical procedures necessary to prevent the death of another human being, viz., the mother" (1979 Res. 3-02A). Official synodical resolutions and other materials on this topic are available from the Synod's Commission on Theology and Church Relations (CTCR) (http://www.lcms.org/pages/default.asp?NavID=79).


| Ask a Question (http://www.wels.net/cgi-bin/site.pl?1518&cuTopic_topicID=27&cuItem_itemID=16426#) Q:I have read your Q&A with great interest many times, and often learned a lot. However, I am offended and disappointed with some answers regarding abortion. You say that abortion is OK if the cause is that the mother would die if she was to continue the pregnancy. You say it is important to try and save a life instead of losing two. How come you think saving a life is so important that you are willing to kill another life (= the baby)? Why would the life on earth be so important, that you would choose to murder a baby so that the mother can go on living (instead of-let's say the mom is a christian-she would go to heaven, and the baby-we cant say much about since God's word doesn't)? Isn't God the giver and taker of life? Isn't it possible that God chose to end a mother's life due to pregnancy? I am disappointed with the liberal view you express regarding this matter, and I did not find enough Bible verses to support your view. A:The allowance for an abortion to save a mother’s life is rooted in Scripture and in the practical application of human reason.
The “exception clause” in the position statement of the WELS on abortion, (found here (http://www.wels.net/cgi-bin/site.pl?2617&collectionID=795&contentID=4444&shortcutID=5295)) and in the position statement held by the majority of pro-life Christian denominations, is often misinterpreted. A correct understanding does not lead to an arbitrary choice as to which life we save. A correct understanding of this position is made in cases where one life is certain to be lost, and we can take measures to preserve the other life.
Scripturally, the broad teaching on human life from the Bible is that we have a responsibility to protect and care for human life. This is evidenced by the prohibitions against willful and malicious murder (Exodus 20:13 (http://biblegateway.com/cgi-bin/bible?language=english&version=&passage=Exodus+20%3A13); Genesis 9:6 (http://biblegateway.com/cgi-bin/bible?language=english&version=&passage=Genesis+9%3A6); Revelation 21:8 (http://biblegateway.com/cgi-bin/bible?language=english&version=&passage=Revelation+21%3A8)), the commands to protect and defend (Proverbs 31:8-9 (http://biblegateway.com/cgi-bin/bible?language=english&version=&passage=Proverbs+31%3A8-9); Ezekiel 33:6 (http://biblegateway.com/cgi-bin/bible?language=english&version=&passage=Ezekiel+33%3A6)), and the willingness to sacrifice personally for the lives and souls of others (Matthew 20:28 (http://biblegateway.com/cgi-bin/bible?language=english&version=&passage=Matthew+20%3A28); John 15:13 (http://biblegateway.com/cgi-bin/bible?language=english&version=&passage=John+15%3A13)). Any “exception clause” must be rooted in the paramount concern to protect life.
The tension in the case of abortion is seen in the practical reality of what is happening when such a choice is required. Instances where the mother’s life is genuinely and assuredly endangered are extremely rare. It primarily occurs with ectopic or tubal pregnancies, or those pregnancies that occur outside of the reproductive tract. In those circumstances the outcome always results in the death of the developing child. Neither the tubal or ex-uterine environment can sustain the developing child to viability. Those same pregnancies present a real risk of fatality for the pregnant woman if intervention does not take place. Practically speaking, in this circumstance, the decision is clearly made between two fatalities or one fatality. Prudency and obedience to the Biblical assignment to protect life compels us to save what life can be saved.
While ex-uterine pregnancies constitute the vast majority of “life endangerment” cases, there are very few cases where other conditions present such a challenge. The mother may have a severely weakened heart or is wrestling with cancer and undergoing treatment likely dangerous to the developing child. While in the case of an ex-uterine pregnancy, where there is no chance for the survival of the developing child, the latter cases do present a stronger tension. These cases are more complex and have many variables. What if the heart ailment is serious enough to not sustain a mother’s health until a child reaches viability? What if the progression of a cancer makes it unlikely for a mother to survive long enough to deliver a viable child? Again, the motive is to protect a life rather than lose both lives. If, on the other hand, there exists a risk for mother and a child that can make it to viability, a Christian is compelled to protect both lives if at all possible.
This same reasoning applies both ways. In convoluted circumstances where a child is likely to survive but the mother is not, effort should be made to sustain the life that can be sustained. In such a circumstance, it is the reality that a mother may die while her child may live. Christian Life Resources, a pro-life and pro-family agency within the fellowship of the Wisconsin Evangelical Lutheran Synod and the Evangelical Lutheran Synod, wrestled with some of these issues when drafting its position statement on abortion. That position statement can be found at: www.christianliferesources.com/?4732 (http://www.christianliferesources.com/?4732)
In its conclusion to Section 1, which touches on the “exception clause”, the statement reads: “God's Word instructs us that human life is His unique creation that is to be protected at all stages, including its earliest stages. Even when a medical abortion is sought to preserve a mother's life, the Christian will always proceed with the intent to preserve all human life whenever possible. All other reasons for abortion fail to reflect God's high regard for human life and our responsibility to protect it.” As expressed throughout Scripture, God has entrusted us to be stewards to manage the blessings He has given us. One of those blessings is life. It is the degenerating results of sin in our world that creates such dilemmas in our lives. It is also these challenges that enable us to search out God’s Word and to make decisions consistent with His will. In the very sad circumstance of having to choose to preserve one life rather than lose two lives, the weight of Scripture’s calling for us to protect life compels us to preserve both lives, or at least one life, whichever is possible.

[LutheranHawkeye]

If someone is going to post their position on an issue, they should be willing to accept that others will do the same. God's laws are black and white. There are no grey areas no matter how many other denominations might present them in order to fill stadium seats.

I didn't see any disrespectful posts, only a VISITOR to the Confessional sub-forum who couldn't handle the debate she got herself into. Liberal thinking and reliance on social policy for what might be right or wrong is a slippery slope for a Christian. Christians are in this world, but not supposed to of this world, remember?
You are right. Thanks for openining my eyes. Like I have stated before I am pro-life, I just had no idea most people on here believe that if someone is Christian and pro-choice that they are going to hell. Sorry I brought it up everyone. I read the first couple of pages and assumed that's how the whole thread went, I was wrong. Sorry for the misunderstanding.

[LutheranHawkeye]

I'm sorry the truth disgusts you.
Not trying to be rude or anything but why are you posting in the confessional Lutheran forum?

[DaRev]

I just had no idea most people on here believe that if someone is Christian and pro-choice that they are going to hell.

I pray that is your attempt at sarcasm.

[BreadAlone]

Wait wait wait..people are saying if you're pro-choice that's a free ticket to hell!? That doesn't seem quite scriptural to me..not that I could rationalize one claiming to be a brother and yet being in support of the over 46,000,000 abortions that have LEGALLY taken place..but still..

[porterross]

You are right. Thanks for openining my eyes. Like I have stated before I am pro-life, I just had no idea most people on here believe that if someone is Christian and pro-choice that they are going to hell. Sorry I brought it up everyone. I read the first couple of pages and assumed that's how the whole thread went, I was wrong. Sorry for the misunderstanding.

Not a big deal, Nordic. We've all been there. ;)
I don't think any of us believe we know who is and isn't going to hell. Rather, the point folks were trying to make to her was that all life is precious and it is contradictory for any Christian to believe or profess otherwise on the issue of abortion.

Don't you think it breaks God's heart that those He's knitting are ripped apart and discarded as inconvenient waste? Should we not speak out against it for the horrible act that it is, when confronted with someone defending such horror? If you've never seen photos of aborted fetuses, you're fortunate.:cry:

[DaRev]

Do you know how tempted I was to post such pictures in that thread? I thought better of it, though.

[BreadAlone]

On a related note, for any Wisconsinite out there, the Pro-Choice activists are trying to repeal the state-wide ban on abortion. Obviously the ban was nullified by Roe v. Wade, but when Roe is overturned by the Supreme Court the ban would be back in effect.

If you live in Wisconsin, you should email your state senators and congressmen immediately reflecting your opinions..

[Protoevangel]

Not trying to be rude or anything
No problem, fair question.


but why are you posting in the confessional Lutheran forum?
Because I am an old veteran here. I only post here, either when my post is in agreement with Confession Lutheran values and teachings (which I am intimately familiar with), when I have an honest question or answer, or for fellowship. So far, I do not seem to have crossed the line, bringing righteous wrath on myself here. Knowing me, I'm sure the time is coming, though. ;)

[RadMan]

Not trying to be rude or anything but why are you posting in the confessional Lutheran forum?He's still a closet Lutheran :)

[Protoevangel]

He's still a closet Lutheran :)
Yea! That's the ticket! (now, where did that rolling eyes smilie go?) ;) :P

[Jim47]

He's still a closet Lutheran :)



I'm thinking maybe he has second thoughts :P :prayer:

[Protoevangel]

I'm thinking maybe he has second thoughts :P :prayer:
I have one thing to say about that comment.

http://maxgrace.files.wordpress.com/2007/03/einsteintongue.jpg



^_^

[porterross]

Gotta love ol' Al.

[Jim47]

I have one thing to say about that comment.

http://maxgrace.files.wordpress.com/2007/03/einsteintongue.jpg



^_^




Why thank you ! I've always thought I was a genius too ^_^

[Jim47]

Gotta love ol' Al.



Yeah, he's got what you call real sex appeal Heh? ^_^

Almost as much as me :P

[porterross]

Yeah, he's got what you call real sex appeal Heh? ^_^

Almost as much as me :P
I certainly hope you're not the philanderer he was. You hunks can be hard to resist. ;)

[Jim47]

I certainly hope you're not the philanderer he was. You hunks can be hard to resist. ;)



Hunk a what? ^_^

Yer funny PR :thumbsup:

[LilLamb219]

Hunk a what? ^_^

Yer funny PR :thumbsup:

A hunk a hunk of burnin love? :sorry:

[RadMan]

A hunk a hunk of burnin love? :sorry:
Thank a vera much.
*exits stage right*

http://ickmusic.com/pics/elvis70.jpg

[seajoy]

Thank a vera much.
*exits stage right*
Rad is really Elvis?!!! :eek: Wow, an Elvis sighting right here in TCL!!! :swoon:

[RadMan]

Rad is really Elvis?!!! :eek: Wow, an Elvis sighting right here in TCL!!! :swoon:yeeea---I needed supum from 7-11

[DaRev]

yeeea---I needed supum from 7-11

Pepto? ^_^

[RadMan]

Naaaw------needed sum suede polish fo my blue suede shoes.

[LilLamb219]

No grease for the hair? :D

[WildStrawberry]

No grease for the hair? :D
What hair?

LOL

Kae

[RadMan]

What hair?

LOL

KaeI resemble that remark. :)

[WildStrawberry]

I resemble that remark. :)

We luvs ya Rad! :kiss:

Kae