A dilemma....

[MoNiCa4316]

:wave:

I have a bit of a dilemma. lol I've always wanted to say that word:D but anyway...

Let's say you meet up with a bunch of friends every week and discuss your lives and your Christian faith. You share your thoughts or experiences, and sing a worship song or two.
They are Protestants. And recently they decided to take Communion together at the end of the 'meeting'.
But....since you're Orthodox, you can't.
Not only because the Church forbids it, but also because you've prayed about and God has put a pretty clear conviction on your heart that you shouldn't. He told you to only take the Eucharist because you believe it's really the Body and Blood of Christ; literally and not symbolically.

However, you know that simply watching them take Communion and not participating will not cause you to stumble, because you're sure of your position, and also because you respect their beliefs. After all, you were Protestant like two months ago yourself.
You don't want to leave the group. So you decide to talk to them about it.
How would you go about doing that??

lol that's my dilemma. I want to talk to my friends but I don't want to hurt or offend them....I'm just trying to obey what I felt God told me in prayer. I've disobeyed Him in the past but I don't want to anymore. But I don't want to make it sound like I think their Communion is bad or that I'm 'too good for them' or something...I really don't know how they'll react. It's basically a fact of life for them that Communion is symbolic, and they've never questioned that...they've grown up Protestant... I know that God leads us where He wills and if He hasn't shown them about the Eucharist, then perhaps He wants them Protestant...or it's not the right time....I don't know and I'm leaving it up to Him!

But I can imagine how they might feel in the worst case scenario, and I really don't want to hurt them. It's not like I don't want to 'commune with them'... how do I make them see that I feel this is God's will for me? or maybe they'll be worried about me because they'll see my belief us un-Biblical.

What should I do? :( Any advice would be really appreciated...

God bless

monica

[Jacob4707]

:wave:

I have a bit of a dilemma. lol I've always wanted to say that word:D but anyway...

Let's say you meet up with a bunch of friends every week and discuss your lives and your Christian faith. You share your thoughts or experiences, and sing a worship song or two.
They are Protestants. And recently they decided to take Communion together at the end of the 'meeting'.
But....since you're Orthodox, you can't.
Not only because the Church forbids it, but also because you've prayed about and God has put a pretty clear conviction on your heart that you shouldn't. He told you to only take the Eucharist.

However, you know that simply watching them take Communion and not participating will not cause you to stumble, because you're sure of your position, and also because you respect their beliefs. After all, you were Protestant like two months ago yourself.
You don't want to leave the group. So you decide to talk to them about it.
How would you go about doing that??

lol that's my dilemma. I want to talk to my friends but I don't want to hurt or offend them....I'm just trying to obey what I felt God tell me in prayer. I've disobeyed Him in the past but I don't want to anymore. But I don't want to make it sound like I think their Communion is bad or that I'm 'too good for them' or something...I really don't know how they'll react. It's basically a fact of life for them that Communion is symbolic, and they've never questioned that...they've grown up Protestant... I know that God leads us where He wills and if He hasn't shown them about the Eucharist, then perhaps He wants them Protestant...or it's not the right time....I don't know and I'm leaving it up to Him!

But I can imagine how they might feel in the worst case scenario, and I really don't want to hurt them. It's not like I don't want to 'commune with them'... how do I make them see that I feel this is God's will for me? or maybe they'll be worried about me because they'll see my belief us un-Biblical.

What should I do? :( Any advice would be really appreciated...

God bless

monica

Hmmm...

My suggestion would be to tell them that, while they are free to include communion if they wish, you will not be participating (say this in a nice way) because you are now Orthodox, and one thing Orthodox Christians do in joining the Church is bind themselves to taking communion only in conjunction with the Liturgy and as performed and served by an Orthodox priest.

If they ask why, you could say that the Orthodox Church teaches and believes, as the Church and Christians from the beginning have taught and believed, that the Eucharist is a partaking of the Body and Blood of Christ and is to be regarded and treated as such, which means that there are certain centuries-long-held and centuries-ago-agreed-upon practices for serving and partaking of the Eucharist, as well as re: who can partake and with whom one can partake.

This may likely bring up other questions, but at some point, people need to ask and hear these questions. How else will they learn that there is and has been a Church that pre-existed "Bible only" Protestantism for centuries, and be challenged to learn what that Church teaches and does, and why?

My prayers are with you.

And ... these are just my thoughts, and I'd probably embellish them if I had time.

Another option would be to simply say that you cannot share communion with them (give them a Cliff's Notes version of the above) and ask them to reconsider the idea of having communion.

[Akathist]

I think the suggestion about telling them that you are not comfortable with taking communion with them because it is not done as a part of a liturgy service might work.

I would ask myself if I thought these other people also respected my beliefs too.

I say this because when I converted to the EO Church I lost all of my protestant friends. The only friend I have from before I became EO is my pagan friend. (How ironic is that?)

If you think they are willing to respect your beliefs although they are different then yours, then have a talk about how you feel God is convicting you about the Eucharist and you want to obey this and only recieve the Eucharist from a Priest.

(I would not get into the real presence issues verses symbolic myself... because as EO you can't receive in other places were they believe in the real prescence either... like the Anglican Church, the Lutheran Church and of course the Catholic Church.)

If you think they will not really respect your beliefs, then I would not bring the subject up. I would just not receive the communion they do. Walk to the back of the room, take a bathroom break then, etc.

I found over time that I couldn't participate in meetings as you are describing. I just became too uncomfortable.

There is a place I used to work for were I did Christian counseling. I think if I wanted to go back to work for them I could and I sure could use the money.

However, what stops me is the daily prayer time where I know the prayers do not fit my beliefs. Then there is the weekly meetings to discuss Christian books or other topics. I know that these readings and discussions will be full of beliefs I do not share. But they are mandatory there.

I have learnt that most of the time people do not want to learn about a belief they do not agree with, unless it is to try to deconvert someone in settings like this. So, I would not try to discuss the differences in what I believe and what they believe. It would just cause tension and maybe even offense.

It is easier for me to discuss differences in beliefs on a website then face to face too. Here the purpose (in some places) is to debate about the differences. But in a setting as you describe, the purpose is usually to grow in the same belief.

I would really encourage you to talk to your Priest about this as well.

Some Priest feel very strongly that we are not to appear to be worshiping with people who do not share our beliefs. Where your meetings might be crossing the line from a share group to worship might just be this communion.

[MsDahl]

May I be so bold as to say that this is not something to be woeful about but rather this is a joyous occasion for you!! You must think I am crazy for saying this but here is why I say it:

1 - You must be at a place of strength in your walk that God feels you are capable of handling such a strong test of your newfound faith. That is a reason to sing His praises.

2- How wonderful this opportunity is to be able to witness about the Orthodox Church to your friends as they are more likely to be receptive to hearing it coming from a friend over an acquaintance.

This is definitely a positive situation - one that will lead to not only your growth (as we always grow when we have to explain our position to others and to hold fast to our beliefs in face of opposition) but possibly to your friends' growth as well.

As for how you should go about it, I believe in delivering potentially challenging or "negative" message between 2 positives, i.e. It is wonderful that you are seeking a closer connection with God during our meetings. I cannot partake in communion outside of Eastern Orthodoxy due to my personal convictions and if you are interested I can share my reasons why. However, my decision has to do with God's leading in my spiritual life . I still love you all and am honored to be in fellowship with you.

Unfortunately, they may very well be offended not because YOU are offending them but because they may not feel secure with their belief about the Eucharist and that they may be offended by their own views of the Eucharist. If they do get offended after prayer, I would urge you to take a break from this fellowship while you are still growing in your own faith as an E.O. Christian. Why? Because while you are still in the newfound growth stages, it is best to not surround yourself with heterodox teachings or to be challenged by a group of friends by yourself on the beliefs you are still learning about. Maybe this happened because God wants to call you out of this type of fellowship or maybe God wants you to witness to them. This is something that you must come to understand in prayer and seeking the guidance of your SF.

Prayers for you MoNiCa.

[Lukaris]

Maybe just say that as an Orthdox Christian I can only take communion in my church as would a Roman Catholic. May we pray for each other in our respective observances of the sacrament.

[Akathist]

Unfortunately, they may very well be offended not because YOU are offending them but because they may not feel secure with their belief about the Eucharist and that they may be offended by their own views of the Eucharist. If they do get offended after prayer, I would urge you to take a break from this fellowship while you are still growing in your own faith as an E.O. Christian. Why? Because while you are still in the newfound growth stages, it is best to not surround yourself with heterodox teachings or to be challenged by a group of friends by yourself on the beliefs you are still learning about. Maybe this happened because God wants to call you out of this type of fellowship or maybe God wants you to witness to them. This is something that you must come to understand in prayer and seeking the guidance of your SF.

Prayers for you MoNiCa.

I think that paragraph above is worth repeating. :thumbsup:

[xenia]

I think you are going to find that you won't be able to keep meeting with these ladies after a while.

When I taught at an Evangelical high school, the weekly prayer meeting / Bible study was a source of contention for us all. If I participated in the discussion, I was sure to say something they found scandalous and if I kept quiet, they thought I was pouting. And I couldn't really pray with them, and they viewed my silence as a symptom that because of my Orthodoxy, I was not walking with the Lord anymore, etc. etc. etc. Any attempts to explain my dilemma (cool word :) ) to the group resulted in general discomfort and "Let's not talk about this." Afterwards, mild chastisements from the principal: "Can't you act appropriately?" By "appropriately" he meant acting like an Evangelical.

So if I talked I offended them and if I kept quiet I offended them. I was an offense to them, period.

[nestoj]

Tough one.

If you just want to excuse yourself from partaking without offending them - tell them the truth - that God convinced you that Eucharist is true sacred Body and Blood and it must be seen as such and as Christian you must listen to and love God above all.

But, if you want to pass your faith unto them too...thats the tough one. All I can say is be honest and speak the truth as you ware blessed to see it. And have faith.

God helps

[MoNiCa4316]

Thanks for the replies :) they've helped. I don't feel uncomfortable talking to them about faith, even though some of their beliefs are indeed different...maybe that's because we don't actually talk about theology of doctrines there. We just talk about what it means to know God, etc. There's really no wrong answer here, unless you say something decidedly unChristian. So I've found that I've learned some things from these people :)

I also don't feel convicted to stop worshipping with them, because we worship the same God. I see them as brothers and sisters in faith. The only prayers I've heard were inviting God to come and bless our conversation, stuff like that. However, I feel pretty strongly that it would be wrong to take Communion there. So what I guess I'll do is I'll tell them about Communion and see where things go from there...

I really hope that they wouldn't be offended and if they start seeing me as less of a Christian or something, well that'll just break my heart lol. But...I guess I'll just have to see what happens. :sigh: There's really no way of knowing. I also don't want them to appear to be fine with it, but feel differently inside. I'd rather they just tell me what they think bluntly.

One thing that worries me is talking a lot about the Orthodox church, not because I don't want them to know I'm Orthodox LOL but simply because my own beliefs aren't perfectly EO, and I don't want to misrepresent the church. For example I still believe in all the charismatic stuff, but I hope you understand that I can't just stop believing in it simply because the EO church tells me to..I have to be convicted of this and make my beliefs my own. I couldn't make myself believe in the Eucharist until God convinced me of it. So to be honest I'm still trying to decide about things like speaking in tongues, etc. More like..I'm waiting for God to tell me it's wrong,if it is; or right, if it is. Well my friends know about my beliefs on this topic and some of them believe similarly (and some don't). So if I say that the reason I can't take Communion is because the EO church forbids it, that would be really inconsistent and might actually confuse them. I'd rather tell them that I feel God is leading me to take Communion in a particular church; the Eastern Orthodox church...and that I believe it to be the literal Body and Blood of Christ. Maybe that'll even start them thinking about the whole concept, you never know ;)

I'll let you all know what happens :)

God bless!

monica

[xenia]

Monica, you strike me as such a sweet Christian person that I doubt if you will offend anyone. Like Mrs. Dahl suggested, they may be having doubts themselve as to the propriety of a group of ladies serving "communion." If you, in your gentle way, explained why you can't participate, it might do more good than an entire book on topic of the Real Presence. Seriously, this reminds me of what St. Seraphim said: Acquire the spirit of peace and thousands around you will be saved.

[Protoevangel]

All of the responses have been great. I do think it might no be such a good idea, though, to say you "can't" partake with them.

Here is my reasoning: Orthodoxy is already confused with Catholocism and "legalism". Keeping from the "communion" of the heterodox is not a rule that is to be kept in an external manner, but a prescription to keep us healthy and growing in Christ..

Perhaps explaining that you can't really is the way to go, you may want to add something to the explanation to ensure they do not misunderstand why.

[MoNiCa4316]

So if I talked I offended them and if I kept quiet I offended them. I was an offense to them, period.

:( I'm sure it was really hard for you there :hug: I kinda see what you mean. You see I belong to a Christian club in my university and we have big 'weekly meetings' with speakers and stuff, and Bible study. And generally it's not a problem and I'm pretty accepted there, even though some things I say are indeed a little controversial LOL.

But..last week we had a speaker who talked about salvation, and he really made it sound like the Catholic church believes in salvation by works. I'm sure he would say that same thing about the Orthodox church. But I've been thinking about this for a very long time and decided that many people just don't understand our doctrine on salvation. I believe now that we need works, because faith without deeds is dead. I'm also not OSAS. I've been thinking and praying about this for a while, and that's what I've decided. But if I say that, they'll probably think that I'm not a Christian anymore, and that I don't believe in grace and Christ's sacrifice. :sigh: When in reality, I know that salvation happens entirely by grace, and that our works are a result of our faith, and that they are meaningless if not done with love. So it's not like we're saved by works, as they're saying, it's more like works are the evidence of God transforming us by grace! He wants a particular type of people, and He's changing our hearts so that we could be in His Kingdom. Yes we are His children even now, in our imperfection, and we shouldn't be so proud as to think that what we do would get us into heaven. So the Protestants have the right attitude here! But at the same time, if we are His children, then we would be open to His grace and He would be changing us day by day...so I guess what I'm saying is that I believe in Christ's righteousness becoming a part of us, not just us being called righteous in Him while remaining our old selves. Yes we'll always be sinners here on earth but if we try, God knows that.

So that whole 'lecture' really worried me, because they seem to equate this view to "salvation by works". That's not true, because I hold to this view but I trust in Jesus alone for my salvation!

Another time, we were having a conversation on who we'd want to meet in heaven, and some people expressed doubt as to whether JRR Tolkien and Mother Theresa made it, simply because they are Catholic. That just made me sad, because obviously Catholics believe in Christ too. I wonder what they would have said about Orthodox people.

And..a FEW have said that they don't consider Catholics to be Christians at all. I have a friend, she's Catholic, and she's part of that club as well. Last year, her friends really challenged her faith, but she prayed about it a lot and God showed her that she's on the right track...now she's stronger, and has decided to stay in the group, maybe to show the others what being a Catholic is really all about.

So..sometimes I come across similar problems...I can't (and dont want to) argue, but I still would like to be part of the conversation. And these people have been a good influence in my life and have inspired me to live out my faith more, and I know that God brought them into my life a couple of years ago when I was bordering on agnosticism. Not to mention that I've made some great friends there. I just wish we all understood each other a little better :( I could be misunderstanding too, it's not just them lol. By the way, I have told one of my Protestant friends that I believe in the Eucharist, and I could tell that she disagreed, but she didn't argue and she's still a great friend of mine..and she doesn't see me as any less of a Christian I was before :) this was really encouraging!! So even if some people misunderstand, I think others would be accepting, especially my closest friends because based on what I know of them, that's how they are.

In the group I was describing in my OP though, we don't talk about doctrines...we mostly just share experiences, etc. It's hard to say anything there that would be labelled "wrong", as long as its Christian.

[MoNiCa4316]

Monica, you strike me as such a sweet Christian person that I doubt if you will offend anyone. Like Mrs. Dahl suggested, they may be having doubts themselve as to the propriety of a group of ladies serving "communion." If you, in your gentle way, explained why you can't participate, it might do more good than an entire book on topic of the Real Presence. Seriously, this reminds me of what St. Seraphim said: Acquire the spirit of peace and thousands around you will be saved.

aw thanks for your encouragement, Xenia :hug:

I like that St. Seraphim quote, ..that's another reason to pray for a spirit of peace :)

God bless

monica

[MoNiCa4316]

All of the responses have been great. I do think it might no be such a good idea, though, to say you "can't" partake with them.

Here is my reasoning: Orthodoxy is already confused with Catholocism and "legalism". Keeping from the "communion" of the heterodox is not a rule that is to be kept in an external manner, but a prescription to keep us healthy and growing in Christ..

Perhaps explaining that you can't really is the way to go, you may want to add something to the explanation to ensure they do not misunderstand why.

That's a good point! Indeed I can see how this would be considered "legalistic"...yea maybe I shouldn't just say that I "can't", but say a bit more detail on the topic.

[All4Christ]

Monica - I want to thank you for asking these questions. A lot of these - I wonder about, but forget to ask them later on :-) God bless!

[Philothei]

I really don't want to hurt them. It's not like I don't want to 'commune with them'... how do I make them see that I feel this is God's will for me? or maybe they'll be worried about me because they'll see my belief us un-Biblical.


I did just scan this thead as I do not have the time. I will be honest... Here is my point. Question: Do they care what YOU think about them? No. ... they are still practice being Proterstant... right?

Why they should be offended with what you are?

If they love you and care for you they should understand. That is my take and I always sticked to that. I had all kinds of friends protestants, catholics... never had a problem because it is a matter of respecting ones personhood.... and individuality.

Also think ... What would Christ do? if he was offered to do something conttrary to his beliefs? Would he have abandon his commitment to His Fahter?

also an observation... If you are not totally happy with this fellowship group at your university why not try to organize your own OCF group? ASk if there is an orthodox priest around the city and call him to find out... Also network your self with other Orthodox students.

I understand how you must feel as I attended for one class in a liberal college for my church history since at the seminary I had a conflict... I had a "variety" of christian students... they did looked down on me when I told them I am orthodox... but I did stick out the semester with them....I was mostly answering questions about orthodoxy during breaks...I think finally they decided that I "had" to be part of the group (we had group assigments too...:() and they started to respect me more as I never gave up or gave in to their pressure... I tried to remain calm and focused on the task at hand.. I will be straight though Orthodoxy will not make you poplular with the students ... and it will make you "be the strange one" in the group... but think of the benefits .... you will be the one with the strongest faith with the deeper sense of self and confidence... in the long run. My advice ... do not let other dictate the way you will think and act... Christ said I have conquered the world....
p.s. please I hope you do not get offended with my rant... I was a college student once too and I know....
God bless,
Philothei

[MoNiCa4316]

Monica - I want to thank you for asking these questions. A lot of these - I wonder about, but forget to ask them later on :-) God bless!

You're welcome :)
God bless

[MoNiCa4316]

Hi Philothei, :wave: perhaps they would not be offended, but they might get worried about me that I'm going down a "wrong path" and leaving Christianity. I mean, some of them believe that Catholics are not Christians, and they might think the same about Orthodox by association. Even if they don't get offended, they might genuinely worry about me....I've actually had this happen before with someone. That's actually not too frustrating, because that just means they care about me LOL. If I suspected that one of my friends is leaving Christianity, I would be worried about them too! I just wish that there weren't these misconceptions about Catholics and Orthodox: that we're "under the Law", worship Mary and icons, etc. But I don't blame my friends for thinking this, because that is not their fault, that is simply what they've been taught...and their parents were taught that, etc. It makes me really sad that people think this, but many have just not looked into these topics in detail and are simply misinformed.


Also think ... What would Christ do? if he was offered to do something conttrary to his beliefs? Would he have abandon his commitment to His Fahter?


I totally agree that we shouldn't change our beliefs just because some people are unhappy with them.
I know that God has given me my belief in the Eucharist, and I'm prepared to hold on to that, and I pray that He would give me strength. There will probably be opposition, and I might not be very popular LOL but I'm a little controversial already...^_^

Don't worry you haven't offended me at all.

God bless

monica

[Jacob4707]

Hi Philothei, :wave: perhaps they would not be offended, but they might get worried about me that I'm going down a "wrong path" and leaving Christianity. I mean, some of them believe that Catholics are not Christians, and they might think the same about Orthodox by association. Even if they don't get offended, they might genuinely worry about me....I've actually had this happen before with someone. That's actually not too frustrating, because that just means they care about me LOL. If I suspected that one of my friends is leaving Christianity, I would be worried about them too! I just wish that there weren't these misconceptions about Catholics and Orthodox: that we're "under the Law", worship Mary and icons, etc. But I don't blame my friends for thinking this, because that is not their fault, that is simply what they've been taught...and their parents were taught that, etc. It makes me really sad that people think this, but many have just not looked into these topics in detail and are simply misinformed.


I totally agree that we shouldn't change our beliefs just because some people are unhappy with them.
I know that God has given me my belief in the Eucharist, and I'm prepared to hold on to that, and I pray that He would give me strength. There will probably be opposition, and I might not be very popular LOL but I'm a little controversial already...^_^

Don't worry you haven't offended me at all.

God bless

monica

Well, if your friends are concerned for your salvation or your Christianity, you could suggest that they read nothing but the Gospels for the next 6 months - i.e., the things that Jesus Himself said that those who believe in Him and want to follow Him and enter His kingdom should do - and then ask them if they think that what the Orthodox Church teaches and believes and does and practices is not Christian. :)

A Four-Spiritual-Laws/Pauline-heavy Christianity is a distortion and truncation of the New Testament.

[CatholicFlame]

Hey Monica, I think that you know what your heart is saying for you to do.

I think that the more you witness to what Jesus has done in your life, the more you are going to be blessed and empowered by Jesus.

Do not prepare what you are to say beforehand, the holy Spirit will give you the words to say at that time.

[MoNiCa4316]

Well, if your friends are concerned for your salvation or your Christianity, you could suggest that they read nothing but the Gospels for the next 6 months - i.e., the things that Jesus Himself said that those who believe in Him and want to follow Him and enter His kingdom should do - and then ask them if they think that what the Orthodox Church teaches and believes and does and practices is not Christian. :)

A Four-Spiritual-Laws/Pauline-heavy Christianity is a distortion and truncation of the New Testament.

I agree, Jacob.. :)

Paul obviously believed in the same things as the rest of the Apostles, but the reason he focused so much on faith and grace in his letters is because the churches he was writing to were starting to go down the wrong path... like thinking that you have to follow the OT laws to be saved, etc.

[MoNiCa4316]

Hey Monica, I think that you know what your heart is saying for you to do.

I think that the more you witness to what Jesus has done in your life, the more you are going to be blessed and empowered by Jesus.

Do not prepare what you are to say beforehand, the holy Spirit will give you the words to say at that time.

Thanks for the advice CF, that's very true :) and..yea I think I already know what to do...