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Akathist
23rd January 2008, 06:25 PM
Greetings TAW.

I am writing to you as your sister. I am the manager of TAW so it is my responsibility to try to help members of TAW and to help TAW become a place we all want to be a part of.

I know some members are very upset right now. I believe that you are think you are upset with upper staff above your TAW team.

But that is not the reason threads were removed. It was solely the decision of your TAW team. And it was based upon TAW guidelines and what your TAW team felt was best for the atmosphere of TAW and also for one of our visitors.

We are 100% responsible. As manager, I am the person you should complain to and be angry with and not my staff. I agreed with the decision of the staff and I still agree with it.

We made this decision in an effort to serve all of you. This decision was not done out of malice and was not done lightly. It was done because of our love for you all, and our love for our Church.

Some of the reasons for this decision is confidential and we can not share it because it would violate the privacy of someone.

It would be very unfair to publicly expose things about someone in order to defend ourselves.

Please keep in mind when you are hearing one side of the story that there are other points of view that you might not be aware of.

I am aware by the pm's sent to me that a member who is supposed to be taking a break from TAW has been writing a lot of pm's and from what I have read, this member is not giving the full picture. I think this is a normal response actually. We humans tend to slant things to look a certain way. It is part of our fallen nature.

Recently we had a member who in the course of two weeks posted over 14 threads that had nothing or very little to do with Christianity, let alone the Eastern Orthodox Faith.

Staff discussed what to do about this when they started. In our discussions our first reaction was to leave them so that people could respond to them and teach things to that member.

But as time passed, the member posted more and more things that were less and less to do with Christianity at all. In fact, more and more of our guidelines and CF rules were being broken. Staff kept trying to decide how to best help the member.

At this point the complaints started coming in to me and through the reports. Members telling me that we need to do something.

But we were delayed in addressing them when we had a member of TAW claim to have taken a lot of pills. We discovered over the course of time that they knew the pills they took were not fatal and that they had never wanted to die. In trying to help the individual we were also told that they had no intention of attending services in the EO faith or of talking to an EO Priest. Further, they said they did not need any professional care and had no intention of getting any.

It became clear to staff, that we had someone seeking drama and attention, not genuinely seeking help. As a staff team, we came to this conclusion. It broke our hearts because we all cared very much for this individual.

Looking back on the 14 or more threads we decided that their purpose appeared to be to be disruptive rather then to genuinely want assistance or help. We saw the complaints in the threads, and read the words in them.

We noticed the things said in the threads verses private communication.

And we paid attention to the complaints of members about the situation.

One catecumen wrote to me and said that they could not learn about the EO faith because of how offensive these non-Christian and non-EO threads were. This broke our hearts too.

All of us staff see TAW as a ministry to teach about our faith to inquirers and encourage them to visit local EO Churches.

So, we had to consider the impact of these threads and future threads by this individual on our purpose here as well.

To help the member understand what threads were too far off the topic of learning about the EO Faith and what was OK, we chose to delete those threads.

We noticed that in every thread, the questions asked in the OP had been answered several times and that the member had posted after these answers. So, we felt the threads had served the purpose. But, they were still the cause for complaints.

We did not punish the member for off topic posts. The member has not been permanently banned from TAW. I can not disclose the details of what we did exactly but I can assure you that the member was reminded that staff really do care a lot about them.

I have had questions about people being afraid of what they can or can't post "now". It has caused me to be really offended. I wish I could react differently. But, it has offended me to think that people are taking this situation to such an extreme. It offends me to see TAW staff insulted by members that staff love and seek to serve.

TAW members should post the normal things they always post. No rule has been changed. No new policy adopted. Threads that were removed had served their purpose and had been allowed to do so. (Even though they were in violation of our guidelines.)

Guidelines are not meant to replace teaching someone something important or helping someone. They are meant to help us understand were we draw boundaries. But these boundaries are flexible depending upon the situation.

We bent those boundaries a lot. We will bend them again if needed. Why? Because we are here to serve what is best for TAW and to keep this place friendly and open to inquirers.

But that does not mean that we will not remove posts that have to do with non-Christian faiths or things that are about seeking drama and not about fellowship. It is our job to remove those things.

If a thread is removed, the starter of the thread can appeal the removal. We tell them this every time. We also don't remove things unless we as a staff team have agreement. We also inform members who started a thread about the reason for a permanent removal.

When a thread is removed, staff can still see the thread. It does not disappear. But it is not visible to the members. If there is a post or something you want from a removed thread, just ask me and I will get it for you.

One last thing, I want to remind you that we have a guideline that if you do not like a policy in TAW you need to bring it to me as manager via the PM system. You are not to start a thread about it.

When you start a thread this leads to problem with the atmosphere of TAW and people jumping to conclusions based on false assumptions. It also can lead to issues were staff can not disclose confidential information but are treated badly because we do not do so.

It is not proper to publicly attack anyone in real life or via the internet. First you need to take your issues to a person in private. The try to settle it. Then if that does not work, you talk in a small group with two or three others as advisers or mediators.

This is how we do things here at CF. If you do not like something, write me a pm and let me try to work it out. Then, if that fails take it to upper staff. But a lynch mob is what I have seen in the last day and it is unfair.

I am not a perfect person. I feel compelled to follow the rules I have been given. I have no trouble bending them but I hate to break them. Nevertheless, I have broken them by writing all of this to you. I am taking a big risk but I am doing this because I feel it is best for TAW.

I have been recently disciplined as well for taking such a strong stand against a nonTAW staffer who moved a TAW member's thread out of view and didn't even tell him. I spoke up so strongly and acted quickly and impulsively that I was disciplined. I did it because I felt it was needed for TAW and for a TAW member who did not break any rules with his thread.

So, clearly, I am not perfect. I am however very caring about TAW and every one of you.

I am asking you all now to stop saying hurtful things about TAW staff and to take your concerns to me via pm.

I am also asking each of you to forgive me as Manager for any way in which I have failed you. I didn't try to fail you. I felt trapped to do more then I did.

Pray for me a sinner. :bow:

Silentchapel
23rd January 2008, 07:42 PM
Mega-ultra-giga-supportive hug! :hug::hug::hug:

-Kyriaki-
23rd January 2008, 10:30 PM
*joins in the hug*

Thankyou so much for the work you do, Akathist. We don't give you enough thanks or credit.

Monica, child of God
23rd January 2008, 11:03 PM
If my comment contributed to a lynch mob vibe, I apologize. The comment was not directed at you personally and to be frank, I don't feel particularly upset about any of this. Things ebb and flow on CF as in life.

M.

xenia
23rd January 2008, 11:36 PM
God bless you, Akathist. You are doing a very good job.

(((Xenia)))

from the other Xenia

Philothei
24th January 2008, 03:15 AM
Greetings TAW.

IWe made this decision in an effort to serve all of you. This decision was not done out of malice and was not done lightly.
When you make a "decision" is okay to make it and have any right to.. But... to avoid the enormous consequences that developed you could have communicated the simple "rules" that Sacrum stated in the other thread.... about deleting threads after members get banned... or this is not is a rule anymore... see I am confused again... :scratch:
Please keep in mind when you are hearing one side of the story that there are other points of view that you might not be aware of.

right... that is true that is why we are confused ... since this side of the story .... keep the fact that threads are closed under lock and key....

I . I think this is a normal response actually. We humans tend to slant things to look a certain way. It is part of our fallen nature.
I do not think this is helping any... members are allowed to send pms... and yes it is part of human nature to want to explain your self and defend yourself...
Recently we had a member who in the course of two weeks posted over 14 threads that had nothing or very little to do with Christianity, let alone the Eastern Orthodox Faith.

Your business to decide ... But with your decision it is normal to have opposition... They were fellowship threads.... or dealing with personal issues like ...i.e. I am blessed .... etc. or any other thread that does not contain religion in it....STill they are up and going...

Staff discussed \.....
---------
In fact, more and more of our guidelines and CF rules were being broken. Staff kept trying to decide how to best help the member.
Don't you think that a friendly note to the OP telling them that they have too many threads and they need to cut it out would have been a better solution?? Did the stuff exhausted all other means? (not my business but it seems that previously some other time some other mods handled it that way....) acutally I remember the mod telling him that in a thread and the poster agreed and did comply.....

At this point the complaints ....
But we were delayed in addressing them when we had a member of TAW claim to have taken a lot of pills. We discovered over the course of time that they knew the pills they took were not fatal and that they had never wanted to die. In trying to help the individual we were also told that they had no intention of attending services in the EO faith or of talking to an EO Priest. Further, they said they did not need any professional care and had no intention of getting any.

This is something to talk over with one's SF..And it is a mod's call....My question? Was the poster preaching something dangerous to others? other religion? etc.... demonic possesion? atheism?

It became clear to staff, that we had someone seeking drama and attention, not genuinely seeking help. As a staff team, we came to this conclusion. It broke our hearts because we all cared very much for this individual.


That should have been confidential...

And we paid attention to the complaints of members about the situation.

One catecumen wrote to me and said that they could not learn about the EO faith because of how offensive these non-Christian and non-EO threads were. This broke our hearts too.


I should comment to this... others had made complains about other posters who lieterally broke rules and the mods never bothered it is noble of you that you care so much about those other members... even if they were catechumenoi..

Also I heard of members compaining about certain poster posting threads about politics....our subforum is FULL with them... how come this does not bother the mods.... to decide to eliminate those.... he must have over 20 threads easy.... why is his threads better and they are not taken down??? They do create clutter IMO when inquireres are coming in to talk about christianity and they see us talking politics and current issues I think there are forums for politics .... SOOOO it is up to the mods to choose who they favour and who they dod not...Do you understand that is a slippery slope you all are going with this???? You cannot control which threads are GOOD for TAW and whicha are not... you will always have members who will dislike or like certain ones and create wars......................

Also are catechumens more important than us the baptized orthodox??? how come? we are all the same in God's eyes. We need to be true for people who come into orthodoxy... not present ourselves as loving but in actuallity be....loving. That would mean treat each other with respect no matter what... respect all. That is to me the best way to show by example... how much we respect each other and by extension them... We cannot bow down to the "wants" and please others because they want to become orthodox. Orthodoxy is a way of life not something we "create" in a vaccum...

That is where I see the hard part of being a mod come in and I agree it is a lot to juggle......

All of us staff see TAW as a ministry to teach about our faith to inquirers and encourage them to visit local EO Churches.

That is all nice a dandy but we cannot witness without love... love for our own people and all the otrhers... We always have to realize that God is in control of any inquirer at any moment ... WE are not Gods... we are instruments of Him IF we let Him guide... By "making TAW friendly" is not going to attract inquirers if ...we are not first "friendly" to our own... and loving... and forgiving rather we have an attitute that we are the bosses.... and the members are the subjects... that is how it appears... to us... sorry to be harsh but I want to be truthfull....I am not saying these things to hurt rather in love... IMO I do not buy this friendly stuff...When did any of us did not welcome newcommers??? So any thread we put up from now on even if it follows the rules .... still we run the risk for our thread or post to be deleted just because an inquirer does not find it ....friendly... there is no point then to post ..

or are we ashamed that our posters are attention seekers? so what?? Christ did not witnessed to them?


To help the member understand what threads were too far off the topic of learning about the EO Faith and what was OK, we chose to delete those threads.
???? my previous point...
We did not punish the member for off topic posts. The member has not been permanently banned from TAW. I can not disclose the details of what we did exactly but I can assure you that the member was reminded that staff really do care a lot about them.
although I do not like the word punish I will say this.... The fact that some members or inquirers complained ... .... that is to me very interesting... to me personally as I had complained and officially and nothing is been done....somewhere else not TAW ... BTW... with more serious rule breaking.... that is another story...no action was taken... as yet...

But for this one... I believe that you should have told us only about the threads nothing else... that is mod business.... not ours...


I have had questions about people being afraid of what they can or can't post "now". It has caused me to be really offended. I wish I could react differently. But, it has offended me to think that people are taking this situation to such an extreme. It offends me to see TAW staff insulted by members that staff love and seek to serve.


It might seem harsh but it is part of the job tro get questioned... and for us to feel threatened when suddenly threads are zapped without trace and they were a substantial number... In your shoes I would feel bad but still rightly so... since doing an action like that I should have been prepared for a reaction..... Especially if there are no rules down for zaping one's posts after they get banned...
TAW members should post the normal things they always post. No rule has been changed. No new policy adopted. Threads that were removed had served their purpose and had been allowed to do so. (Even though they were in violation of our guidelines.)

This again sounds too confussing is it that the mods will take down threads who serve a purpose.... or not? you have to give us direct answer... so that we know and act accordingly... Guidlines ....where? These threads were about Fellowship....what are "normal things" for me might not be normal for you... i.e. a thread called "pics from nature" or "my back yard" or "My FIL said this joke" etc... Also we cannot post in a thread thinking....now let me see it this topic exhausted? has it served its purpose? then look it up and zap.....gone...



Guidelines are not meant to replace teaching someone something important or helping someone. They are meant to help us understand were we draw boundaries. But these boundaries are flexible depending upon the situation.

We bent those boundaries a lot. We will bend them again if needed. Why? Because we are here to serve what is best for TAW and to keep this place friendly and open to inquirers.

But that does not mean that we will not remove posts that have to do with non-Christian faiths or things that are about seeking drama and not about fellowship. It is our job to remove those things.


Now this is again according to who?? the poster might be in real trouble... how would we judge that? We have to reconsider if we are a christian community here or .... recovery?? You are making an assumption that those threds are not fellowship.... Lots of people ask for personal advice... Maybe we should put into the guidelines for people not to do that... How can we allow some and deny others? Anyone who posts something personal IMO can be seeking personal attention....

Do not be suprised if people feel intimitated to post anymore threads... then....:scratch:


If a thread is removed, the starter of the thread can appeal the removal. We tell them this every time. We also don't remove things unless we as a staff team have agreement. We also inform members who started a thread about the reason for a permanent removal.

When a thread is removed, staff can still see the thread. It does not disappear. But it is not visible to the members. If there is a post or something you want from a removed thread, just ask me and I will get it for you.

One last thing, I want to remind you that we have a guideline that if you do not like a policy in TAW you need to bring it to me as manager via the PM system. You are not to start a thread about it.

When you start a thread this leads to problem with the atmosphere of TAW and people jumping to conclusions based on false assumptions. It also can lead to issues were staff can not disclose confidential information but are treated badly because we do not do so.


That ... you should have thought at the "reactions" of the forum before the closing of allt these threads.... IMO....

It is not proper to publicly attack anyone in real life or via the internet. First you need to take your issues to a person in private. The try to settle it. Then if that does not work, you talk in a small group with two or three others as advisers or mediators.

Yes, now this is something for a sticky among other things...

And also what about if they do not answer your pms?

This is how we do things here at CF. If you do not like something, write me a pm and let me try to work it out. Then, if that fails take it to upper staff. But a lynch mob is what I have seen in the last day and it is unfair.

Noone here intented to lynch mob anyone... but again for the thousand time IMO things got out of hand as a reaction... starting with Rus... who noticed it first... And rightly so he was wondering what was going on....IMO again a simple sorry guys but we had to do this bla bla bla whould have done the trick... but apriori the act so that people were prepared... If people started to attack then you would have a right to say....hey do not bash the mods....

I am not a perfect person. I feel compelled to follow the rules I have been given. I have no trouble bending them but I hate to break them. Nevertheless, I have broken them by writing all of this to you. I am taking a big risk but I am doing this because I feel it is best for TAW.

Xenia, no one is perfect.... or we would not be here discussing this totally silly aweful and spiritually damaging issue... If you are breaking rules we are all too by arguing about it... but above all is the rule of love and humility... and I think that as much as we are hurting right now I know it from my heart that what really matters is not who is right or wrong rather who can make the first step and IMO you are doing right now...

I have been recently disciplined as well for taking such a strong stand against a nonTAW staffer who moved a TAW member's thread out of view and didn't even tell him. I spoke up so strongly and acted quickly and impulsively that I was disciplined. I did it because I felt it was needed for TAW and for a TAW member who did not break any rules with his thread.

Sorry to hear that....
So, clearly, I am not perfect. I am however very caring about TAW and every one of you.

I am asking you all now to stop saying hurtful things about TAW staff and to take your concerns to me via pm.
Will do....
I am also asking each of you to forgive me as Manager for any way in which I have failed you.......

I have to ask for your forgiveness as I know that I hurt you deeply ... May God teach us all humility and love.

as love bears all things....

and never fails...
Pray for me a sinner. :bow:


Prayers,

pray for me too.
Philothei:groupray:


P.s. Xenia I hope you do not see this post as hostile ...it is late and I have to go to bed if you need me to explain or edit something I would gladly do it... I have no animosity or harbor any bitterness in my heart... Everything I wrote here are not intended to hurt rather communicate where I am coming from and if others feel the same way .... in order to clear things up...

nikolayalexandroff
24th January 2008, 05:05 AM
Thank you for clarifying. God help you.:crosseo:

Lukaris
24th January 2008, 10:26 AM
Appreciate yours and all TAW staff commitment.:amen:

MsDahl
24th January 2008, 02:04 PM
I realize I am merely a newcomer here but I thought I may add a few points from a more objective p.o.v.

First, I give the mods props here as they are giving their time to this forum without receiving any physical compensation for their time. That is quite a sacrificial act that probably deserves more thanks from those who benefit from it. I am certain that it is appreciated but hey...that saying is so true "When I do something wrong, everyone has 20/20 vision but when I do something right, suddenly everyone has cateracts." It's an unfortunate aspect to our society (prodigal son story anyone?)

Secondly, I do feel uncomfortable seeking any personal advice in TAW because of this false sense of utopia and the seemingly random handlings of posts/threads. I have barely opened up about myself here among those who share my faith and could most likely provide me some constructive and edifying advice. I am a baptized Orthodox who feels that this forum is far from friendly although it appears to be a respectful and generally "nice" forum at first glance. I tend to be reserved and cautious in general (offline as well) in releasing details about who MsDahl is because:

1) my first source for guidance in my life is the most High God and the Church
2) many people tend to use certain info against you to hurt you or gossip about you
3) many people seem to not really care about you and your struggles but rather delight in your struggles (the internet is no different a place and I approach my life no differently online as I do offline).

Thirdly, I wanted to suggest creating an Off Topic subforum here strictly for members of TAW to seek fellowship on non EO issues without deterring inquirers from this board. Also, I would suggest that access to that subforum would be limited only to official members of TAW and if a person is not an official member, their posts will not be allowed.

Forgive me for even thinking that my words hold any importance among the veterans here but I pray that God could use me even a little.

Chocolatesa
24th January 2008, 03:20 PM
:hug::crosseo:

Khaleas
24th January 2008, 05:36 PM
Thirdly, I wanted to suggest creating an Off Topic subforum here strictly for members of TAW to seek fellowship on non EO issues without deterring inquirers from this board. Also, I would suggest that access to that subforum would be limited only to official members of TAW and if a person is not an official member, their posts will not be allowed.

Forgive me for even thinking that my words hold any importance among the veterans here but I pray that God could use me even a little.

This is what the Taverna used to be used for (although it's open for everyone)... When I came to TAW Taverna was the place for just about all OTs, minus some random ones. The rest were about Orthodoxy...
Now the Taverna hangs out on the second page and is barely used for the reason it exists. A few share of the threads that were deleted would have been ok in the Taverna... At the other hand the Taverna isn't for arguing, but indeed fellowship. Oddly enough it seems that people have been able to take arguments that arose in the Taverna private, while the ones in the other open threads are not... :scratch: