Questions on the Blessed Virgin Mary

[AdJesumPerMariam]

Ok, I have a big question, and no debates, just answers, please!!

Luke 1:46-48 ...and henceforth all generations will call me blessed....

Ok, Mary gave birth to God-actually gave God a human form. He did not have to come this way, but he chose her & she said yes.(as Eve said no)

Also, IF Mary had other children, why did Jesus (John 19:25-28) give the care of His mother to John, and not one of the other children? Even James??

Or, if Jesus truely had half brothers & sisters, and knowing lineage to be important, where are the descendants, today? What if someone COULD claim their heritage as being a direct descendant of Mary? What would be the implications?

Love-n-Blessings
dee

[BBAS 64]

Ok, I have a big question, and no debates, just answers, please!!

Luke 1:46-48 ...and henceforth all generations will call me blessed....
Good day Dede

Mary is truly Blessed in the way she was choosen by the Father.

Ok, Mary gave birth to God-actually gave God a human form. He did not have to come this way, but he chose her & she said yes.(as Eve said no)

Also, IF Mary had other children, why did Jesus (John 19:25-28) give the care of His mother to John, and not one of the other children? Even James??
Yes, Mary was obeidant to the call of God. The bible says that Jesus brother's believed not. Do you think he would leave her to them who did not believe?

[/QUOTE]Or, if Jesus truely had half brothers & sisters, and knowing lineage to be important, where are the descendants, today? What if someone COULD claim their heritage as being a direct descendant of Mary? What would be the implications?

Love-n-Blessings
dee[/QUOTE]
I do not see any implications, either way.

Peace to u,

BBAS

[JVD]

It seems likely that Mary's descendents were killed during the persecutions. If someone could trace their geneology to Mary, there would be no implications.

James and Jude were likely half-brothers of Jesus as I understand. Still doesn't put them in a place of authority.

[JJM]

It seems likely that Mary's descendents were killed during the persecutions. If someone could trace their geneology to Mary, there would be no implications.

James and Jude were likely half-brothers of Jesus as I understand. Still doesn't put them in a place of authority.

Ok I think that James was Jesus’ step brother but you say that this would give them no place of authority. It would to. to the best of my knowledge because James was Jesus’ step brother he was the first Bishop of Jerusalem.

[suzie]

You might better post this question under the Catholic denomination would you not?

[Carlos Vigil]

You might better post this question under the Catholic denomination would you not?


Why would you want to move this question to the Catholic forum?

...."THE REST OF HER CHILDREN, WHO KEEP THE COMMANDMENTS OF GOD AND HOLD TO THE TESTMONY OF JESUS." Rev.12:17

Doesn't (Rev. 12:17) say that ALL who OBEY GOD and are LOYAL TO JESUS CHRIST are Mary's children?.......ANYONE who considers himself a DISCIPLE (John 19:27) "Then He said to the disciple, "Behold your your mother"".....
are Mary's children,.....and not Catholics only ?

Carlos

[suzie]

I am not a child of Mary, I am a child of God. Mary was a human who gave birth to the Messiah.

[BBAS 64]

Why would you want to move this question to the Catholic forum?

...."THE REST OF HER CHILDREN, WHO KEEP THE COMMANDMENTS OF GOD AND HOLD TO THE TESTMONY OF JESUS." Rev.12:17

Doesn't (Rev. 12:17) say that ALL who OBEY GOD and are LOYAL TO JESUS CHRIST are Mary's children?.......ANYONE who considers himself a DISCIPLE (John 19:27) "Then He said to the disciple, "Behold your your mother"".....
are Mary's children,.....and not Catholics only ?

Carlos
Good Day, Carlos

Very interesting exergesis on this passage :

Joh 19:26 When Jesus therefore saw his mother, and the disciple standing by, whom he loved, he saith unto his mother, Woman, behold thy son!


Jesus saw his mother, and told her to behold her son, who is Mary's son? Do you think Mary was looking at Jesus?

Joh 19:27 Then saith he to the disciple, Behold thy mother! And from that hour that disciple took her unto his own home.

Are all disciples know as the one " whom he loved?

Peace to u,

Bill

[suzie]

Ok, I have a big question, and no debates, just answers, please!!

Luke 1:46-48 ...and henceforth all generations will call me blessed....

Ok, Mary gave birth to God-actually gave God a human form. He did not have to come this way, but he chose her & she said yes.(as Eve said no)

Also, IF Mary had other children, why did Jesus (John 19:25-28) give the care of His mother to John, and not one of the other children? Even James??

Or, if Jesus truely had half brothers & sisters, and knowing lineage to be important, where are the descendants, today? What if someone COULD claim their heritage as being a direct descendant of Mary? What would be the implications?

Love-n-Blessings
dee
Ok then, I will try to answer your questions.

Mary had other children after Jesus. It would not matter if they did claim heritage, that would give them no special position as Mary and Joseph were humans and although Mary held a special place in our Christian history by giving birth to the Messiah, that doesnt bring her other offspring to be holier than others or more special. In fact, Scripture tells us originally Jesus' family was skeptical of His ministry. They just didnt believe. James came to believe after Jesus' resurrection. Linage was important in that it showed Jesus' was a descendant of Abraham and direct decendant of David, thus fulfilling the prophesy of OT regarding the linage of the Messiah.

Hope that helps you.

[Carlos Vigil]

Good Day, Carlos

Very interesting exergesis on this passage :

Joh 19:26 When Jesus therefore saw his mother, and the disciple standing by, whom he loved, he saith unto his mother, Woman, behold thy son!


Jesus saw his mother, and told her to behold her son, who is Mary's son? Do you think Mary was looking at Jesus?

Joh 19:27 Then saith he to the disciple, Behold thy mother! And from that hour that disciple took her unto his own home.

Are all disciples know as the one " whom he loved?

Peace to u,

Bill





YES !!!.......Can you name ONE disciple whom He did not love ?
I believe YOU are a disciple whom HE loves.

a friend of yours,
Carlos

[Carlos Vigil]

I am not a child of Mary, I am a child of God. Mary was a human who gave birth to the Messiah.

Rev. 12:17.....Her offspring,
those who keep God's commandments,
and give witness to Jesus....(1), (2), (3).

Does that mean that in addition to "not being a child of Mary",
you also are "not one who keeps God's commandments?"
and are you also one "who does not give witness to Jesus ?"

I urge you to consider the consequences, because scripture offers us these
(3) Gifts together as an "opportinity ".....(Adoption, Obedience, & Witness.)
...of course if you pick and choose, ala cafeteria, ...do you think we would greive The Holy Spirit if we accepted (2) out of (3) ?.....
how about if we accepted (1) out of (3)?

By the way, is your earthly mother living?
Carlos

[Carlos Vigil]

Good Day, Carlos

Very interesting exergesis on this passage :

Jesus saw his mother, and told her to behold her son, who is Mary's son? Do you think Mary was looking at Jesus?


P.S., Dear BBAS64,
Up to this point Jesus has been Mary's only Son( a Jewish woman left with out a husband or a son was considered under a curse.)
I believe Mary, John, and the others mentioned were all looking at Jesus, He then looks at Her (and at John ) and asks them both to LOOK at each other. He then entrusts Her into His (John's )care...after that realizing everything is now finished, He took the wine , and delivered over His Spirit.

He became a curse to free us from the curse of the law, beginning with His Mother.

Now Mary has another son, ...I believe the reason the Evangelist put NO NAME on the disciple was so that you or I (if we choose to), may put OUR NAME in there. (that is another one of those "WHOMSOEVER" empty chairs that appear in scripture for us to act on.

Carlos

[thereselittleflower]

Good Day, Carlos

Very interesting exergesis on this passage :

Joh 19:26 When Jesus therefore saw his mother, and the disciple standing by, whom he loved, he saith unto his mother, Woman, behold thy son!


Jesus saw his mother, and told her to behold her son, who is Mary's son? Do you think Mary was looking at Jesus?

Joh 19:27 Then saith he to the disciple, Behold thy mother! And from that hour that disciple took her unto his own home.

Are all disciples know as the one " whom he loved?

Peace to u,

Bill



Bill

Don't you thnk that we all are ones whom Jesus loves?


Peace in Him!

[BBAS 64]

YES !!!.......Can you name ONE disciple whom He did not love ?
I believe YOU are a disciple whom HE loves.

a friend of yours,
Carlos
Good Day, Carlos

Good Question, No I can not name one who Jesus did not love. In the context we are not talking about that question, we are talking about ONE disciple, That disciple. I was not there nor were you so we can not be that disciple. This is not the first time John is refered to as the one "that Jesus loved".

You know Carlos kind of like that is his name "the one whom Jesus loved".

Peace to u,

Bill

[BBAS 64]

P.S., Dear BBAS64,
Up to this point Jesus has been Mary's only Son( a Jewish woman left with out a husband or a son was considered under a curse.)
I believe Mary, John, and the others mentioned were all looking at Jesus, He then looks at Her (and at John ) and asks them both to LOOK at each other. Good Day, Carlos

Must say you believe much that is not supported with in the context of this verse, never mind the gross gramatical errors you bring to contort this verse. It is in your best interest to not bring any forgein ideas to any text when the context of the text does not support it, given the fact that the text is clear and complete in form and structure.

Joh 19:26 When Jesus therefore saw his mother, and the disciple standing by, whom he loved, he saith unto his mother, Woman, behold thy son!

Where do you get the idea that they were looking at one another?


He then entrusts Her into His (John's )care...after that realizing everything is now finished, He took the wine , and delivered over His Spirit.

He became a curse to free us from the curse of the law, beginning with His Mother.

Now Mary has another son, ...I believe the reason the Evangelist put NO NAME on the disciple was so that you or I (if we choose to), may put OUR NAME in there. (that is another one of those "WHOMSOEVER" empty chairs that appear in scripture for us to act on.

CarlosCarlos, Empty seats = whomsoever JN 3:16. Some time I do not follow you or the relavant meaning of what you say to the issuses at hand.:confused:

Peace to u,

Bill

[BBAS 64]

Bill

Don't you thnk that we all are ones whom Jesus loves?


Peace in Him!
Good Day, Tlf

I have addresses this in a post to Carlos, If I have been un clear please follow up.


Peace to u,

Bill

[Carlos Vigil]

Good Day, Carlos

Good Question, No I can not name one who Jesus did not love. In the context we are not talking about that question, we are talking about ONE disciple, That disciple. I was not there nor were you so we can not be that disciple. This is not the first time John is refered to as the one "that Jesus loved".

You know Carlos kind of like that is his name "the one whom Jesus loved".

Peace to u,

Bill


Are we talking in (2) contexts?
(1) the context of "THAT TIME AND PLACE," in which we can say;
...."the scripture was written for those people at that time."
(2)" The Scripture is UNIVERSAL; for all people for all time."
......."He who has ears, let him hear."
(3) "Jesus Christ is the same yesterday, today, and forever."
.......You are right in that you or I were were not there and
we can not go there, but, HE IS HERE and He comes TO US NOW
("The Kingdom of God IS AT HAND")

SO,...in the context of WHO JESUS IS...along with 1 Cor.2:10
........"Yet God has revealed this wisdom to us through The Spirit, The Spirit scrutinizes all matters, even the deep things of God."

and along with Heb. 12:22-24..."you have drawn near to Mount Zion and the City of The Living God, the heavenly Jerusalem, to myriads of Angels in festal gathering, to the assembly of the first born enrolled in heaven, to God the judge of all, to the spirits of just men made perfect, to JESUS, the mediator of a New Covenant, and to the sprinkled Bloodwhich speaks more eloquently than that of Abel."

In this context; Can you visualize Jesus, and all those people with him at His crucifixion NOW LOOKINK ON YOU AND ME??? (remember we do not go there , They come HERE, TO US.)...don't you think we are being SCRUTINIZED NOW ...aven as we communicate?;(Heb. 4:13..."nothing is concealed from Him; all lies bare and exposed to the eyes of HIM to whom we must render an account.")
Q; do you believe John is feeling a little jealous because Jesus may be wanting to LOVE YOU with the same love with which He loved John?
and give you the same name?... so you can have THAT SAME FELLOWSHIP
of 1 John 1:3 ?

let us yield to the other dimensions of scripture and to that awesome power of the Holy Spirit to reveal to us ALL THAT IS CHRIST'S.

Carlos

[BBAS 64]

Good Day, Carlos

Good Question, No I can not name one who Jesus did not love. In the context we are not talking about that question, we are talking about ONE disciple, That disciple. I was not there nor were you so we can not be that disciple. This is not the first time John is refered to as the one "that Jesus loved".

You know Carlos kind of like that is his name "the one whom Jesus loved".

Peace to u,

Bill



Are we talking in (2) contexts?

(1) the context of "THAT TIME AND PLACE," in which we can say;
...."the scripture was written for those people at that time."
(2)" The Scripture is UNIVERSAL; for all people for all time."
......."He who has ears, let him hear."
(3) "Jesus Christ is the same yesterday, today, and forever."
.......You are right in that you or I were were not there and
we can not go there, but, HE IS HERE and He comes TO US NOW
("The Kingdom of God IS AT HAND")

SO,...in the context of WHO JESUS IS...along with 1 Cor.2:10
........"Yet God has revealed this wisdom to us through The Spirit, The Spirit scrutinizes all matters, even the deep things of God."

and along with Heb. 12:22-24..."you have drawn near to Mount Zion and the City of The Living God, the heavenly Jerusalem, to myriads of Angels in festal gathering, to the assembly of the first born enrolled in heaven, to God the judge of all, to the spirits of just men made perfect, to JESUS, the mediator of a New Covenant, and to the sprinkled Bloodwhich speaks more eloquently than that of Abel."

In this context; Can you visualize Jesus, and all those people with him at His crucifixion NOW LOOKINK ON YOU AND ME??? (remember we do not go there , They come HERE, TO US.)...don't you think we are being SCRUTINIZED NOW ...aven as we communicate?;(Heb. 4:13..."nothing is concealed from Him; all lies bare and exposed to the eyes of HIM to whom we must render an account.")
Q; do you believe John is feeling a little jealous because Jesus may be wanting to LOVE YOU with the same love with which He loved John?
and give you the same name?... so you can have THAT SAME FELLOWSHIP
of 1 John 1:3 ?

let us yield to the other dimensions of scripture and to that awesome power of the Holy Spirit to reveal to us ALL THAT IS CHRIST'S.

Carlos
Carlos,

I am lost as to your point :scratch:

[suzie]

Non-Protestant members (eg. Catholic members) can only post fellowship posts here or posts to ask a question regarding Protestant or Evangelical doctrine. Once the question is answered, there shall be no debate over the answer in this forum by the Non-Protestant. Any debate posts by Non-Protestants will be deleted or moved to the Interdenominational Doctrine Debate forum. In other words, only Protestant members can debate here.

Only a Protestant or Non-Denominational moderator can moderate posts in this forum

[nyj]

Non-Protestant members (eg. Catholic members) can only post fellowship posts here or posts to ask a question regarding Protestant or Evangelical doctrine. Once the question is answered, there shall be no debate over the answer in this forum by the Non-Protestant. Any debate posts by Non-Protestants will be deleted or moved to the Interdenominational Doctrine Debate forum. In other words, only Protestant members can debate here.

Only a Protestant or Non-Denominational moderator can moderate posts in this forum
If you see a violation of the rules, report it. Non-moderators playing moderator serves no purpose.

[suzie]

Give me a break. I am not playing anything. I am reminding them using what is listed in the rules. Obviously your little eyes are upon it so then I will take it that you will do something about it.

[suzie]

Oh wait, since you are a Catholic as well, you cant moderate here either.

[nyj]

Oh wait, since you are a Catholic as well, you cant moderate here either. :D

Actually, if the offense is egregious enough, I can moderate in here, as per Erwin's allowances.

There is nowhere that my Big Stick(tm) cannot reach. :P

Like I said, it is preferrable to leave the moderator warnings to the moderators. Since you cannot enforce anything (other than reporting posts, which is the recommended route of action for non-moderators) your bark has no bite. That is why you should leave moderating actions (like warning people of the rules) to the moderators.

[suzie]

I am not one to run to the moderators. I asked nicely that they might want to take this to the Catholic forums, and then when it "went" where I suspected it might, I showed the "rules".

I didnt think this was against the law, and if I want to take it to the moderators I know how to do so, thanks for your concern.

[Carlos Vigil]

[/i]




Carlos,

I am lost as to your point :scratch:

OK, I wrote too much.
Your point was that John is the disciple whom Jesus loved and you cannot be John.
My point is that Jesus, just prior to His death is arrainging an ADOPTION.

I included realities that are going on as He speaks to Mary & John....resulting in both taking their eyes off Him (for a moment) and behold each other, so by HIS WORD (John & Mary) become Mother and Son....
scripture does not read; "John" ,it reads; "the disciple"...
which you or I can volunteer our own name, saying;"I ,a disciple whom Jesus loves, take you Mary as my Mother, into my home....this in no way detracts from the love Jesus has for John .
you are not obligated to take Her into your home .
Jesus is not mad if you take her in, fearing that you may WORSHIP her.
He only wants His Mother to live free from the curse of the law.

The point is;
If we welcome Her , we find FAVOR from God,(her Husband)
If we reject Her, we reject Him who sent Her. and I do not know what to tell you about that.

I HOPE you get the point,
Carlos :cry:

[Carlos Vigil]

:D

Actually, if the offense is egregious enough, I can moderate in here, as per Erwin's allowances.

There is nowhere that my Big Stick(tm) cannot reach. :P

Like I said, it is preferrable to leave the moderator warnings to the moderators. Since you cannot enforce anything (other than reporting posts, which is the recommended route of action for non-moderators) your bark has no bite. That is why you should leave moderating actions (like warning people of the rules) to the moderators.


ALLELUIA for that Big Stick!
:clap: :clap: :clap:

oops, I better shut up! I have already been rapped w/it* many times.
* other mods
Carlos

[Carlos Vigil]

Good Day, Carlos

Good Question, No I can not name one who Jesus did not love. In the context we are not talking about that question, we are talking about ONE disciple, That disciple. I was not there nor were you so we can not be that disciple. This is not the first time John is refered to as the one "that Jesus loved".

You know Carlos kind of like that is his name "the one whom Jesus loved".

Peace to u,

Bill

Dear Bill,
I enjoy fellowshiping with you, THANKS.
good things result from our discussion,for instance;"The disciple whom Jesus loved" .....is NOT NAMED!...that means he is NON-DENOMINATIONAL!

do you realize what that means??!!??

NON-DENOMINATIONALS can now invite Mary the Mother of Jesus into their own homes, just like "that disciple" did and enjoy all the blessings that go with having A MOM at home....(a deeper experience in the Family of God)

[Carlos Vigil]

Good Day, Carlos

Must say you believe much that is not supported with in the context of this verse,
Joh 19:26 When Jesus therefore saw his mother, and the disciple standing by, whom he loved, he saith unto his mother, Woman, behold thy son!

Where do you get the idea that they were looking at one another?

..."his mother and the disciple standing by, "
that tells me they are standing by each other ...both looking AT JESUS.

WHILE Mary is looking at Jesus, He says to Her;"Behold your son"...
WHILE John is looking at Jesus, He says to John; "Behold your Mother"...

immediately after He commanded them, don't you think they OBEYED and
began LOOKING at one another?

"The Command of the Lord is Pure, enlightening the eyes."
I get the Idea (or understanding) as I read the Scripture WITH NO PRE-
CONCEIVED notion or agenda.

"Then He opened our minds to understand the Scriptures." (Luke 24:45)





Carlos, Empty seats = whomsoever JN 3:16. Some time I do not follow you or the relavant meaning of what you say to the issuses at hand.:confused:

Peace to u,

Bill

actually ,Bill, sometimes I don't either,
But I do know this;
The Word of God IS LIVING. (Like you and I are living,) only more alive. Heb. 4:12...therefore IT has Body, Soul and Spirit,
at least (3) dimensions....not just literal.

in addition to that, The Holy Spirit has placed in Scripture all the characters and their garments, tools and weapons FOR US to try them ON and SEE if & how they fit....allow Him to take you there A.S.A.P. What an awakening that is!...but go there ONLY led by The Spirit.
The (1st) garment The Holy Spirit had me try on was that of the pharisee in the temple praying....I am imbarrassed to say that his garment fit me QUITE WELL!

most of us want to put on St. Paul's or one of the other Apostles, or even Jesus' garments (or character)... but save the creepy stuff for "those others." ...how will we know what to repent of unless The Holy Spirit convicts us that we are one of those "others"

WHOMSOEVER= any person, any one who is, any one who can.
Named, or Not Named?...Put your Name on it, make it come ALIVE!
Carlos
:scratch: :clap:

[suzie]

Carlos, quit posting here or I will report you to the moderator. There is a forum for you to post your views and this is not it.

[Rising_Suns]

Carlos, quit posting here or I will report you to the moderator. There is a forum for you to post your views and this is not it.
sorry, we'll pull back the invasion. ;)




:hug:

[suzie]

ty kindly

[thereselittleflower]

Hi suzi . . may I suggest you let flesh99 know how you feel about this? Would you like me to alert him to the situation for you? . .

You know, BBAS and Carlos are simply having a discussion, not a debate.

BBAS is asking Carlos questions as well . .and if you feel someone needs to control their converstaion, then I think you should talk to flesh99 (or another mod) about it. . .

I do want to share this though, . . we allow discussion with you guys in our forum all the time . . we do a give and take as long as it doesn't turn into debate . . and that is the issue . . debate . .

In OBOB the kind of discussion they are having is not a big issue . . perhaps we just have a more realistic separation between discussion and debate . . just because people are trying to understand differing view points, it doesn't mean they are having a debate . .


Personally, I think it would be much better to simply let BBAS and Carlos have their discussion .. if BBAS feels it is getting to debate, I am sure he can handle it .. .


I don't think Erwin had this kind of "knee-jerk" reaction in mind when he created CF . .. I think he wants us to be much freer to dialogue with each other . . In fact, I think that his is great hope and dream. I for one am for seeing it become a reality. I hope you are too.


Frankly, I would really like to know what is being said betwen Carlos and BBAS, I am confused as well about some of what Carlos was trying to say, it would be nice to let it play out so I can understand . . so I hope you can find it in your heart to allow them to continue . . .


And actually, I don't see any debate going on .. just questions and clarification . .. it can go both ways without being a debate . .


We can be too restrictive you know . . .. :) Of course, since we are not allowed to debate here, if you find yourself in complete disagreement with what I shared above, I won't be debating the matter with you .. .


Peace in Him!

[thereselittleflower]

Good Day, Carlos

Must say you believe much that is not supported with in the context of this verse, never mind the gross gramatical errors you bring to contort this verse. It is in your best interest to not bring any forgein ideas to any text when the context of the text does not support it, given the fact that the text is clear and complete in form and structure.

Joh 19:26 When Jesus therefore saw his mother, and the disciple standing by, whom he loved, he saith unto his mother, Woman, behold thy son!

Where do you get the idea that they were looking at one another?


Carlos, Empty seats = whomsoever JN 3:16. Some time I do not follow you or the relavant meaning of what you say to the issuses at hand.:confused:

Peace to u,

BillHi BBAS

You know, this is the second time in the last week I have run into this understanding of this passage, and I have to say, that in all the 30 years I was a Protestant, I never understood it any other way than Jesus was indeed referring to John when He said, "behold your son" . . . That always seemed to me to be the plain reading of the text as well as what teahers I was under reinforced . . .

I didn't have the full Catholic concept that Jesus was givng all believers to Mary and Mary to all beleivers, but I did very clearly understand that Jesus was giving John to Mary and Mary to John for her earthly care . . that never was a quiestion ..

Yet from you here, and another elsewhere, I have run into the idea that Jesus was telling Mary to behiold Himself . ..

The other poster said that when Jesus said "Behold your mother" He we telling John that He Himself was John's mother . . not Mary . . I don't think you are holding that belief . . but I could be wrong . .


Can you explain to me where your idea comes from that Jesus was referring to Himself when He said "behold your son"?


And who do you understand He was referring to when He told John "Behold your mother"?


Thanks .. I do look forward to your reply as this intrigues me.


Peace in Him!

[Carlos Vigil]

Carlos, quit posting here or I will report you to the moderator. There is a forum for you to post your views and this is not it.

Dear Suzie,
My mother used to tell me; "Don't hang around with people who
do not welcome you.
If you find one friend who welcomes you, hang around and become
a friend to him/her.
I find many friends following that advise.

if the moderator tells me to leave, I will.
If I cannot discern at least ONE welcome here , I will leave.

if you get to know me you will learn that I am not
that much of a creep.
Love, Carlos

[Carlos Vigil]

sorry, we'll pull back the invasion. ;)



:hug:

Hi Rising-Suns,
Now I understand (minutely) how our soldiers feel in Iraq.
Many there welcome their cause,
but there is also opposing fire.

We offer all our prayers, works, joys, sorrows and suffering for their
righteous success ....Amen?

A brother in Christ
Carlos

[Carlos Vigil]

Good Day, Carlos

Must say you believe much that is not supported with in the context of this verse, never mind the gross gramatical errors you bring to contort this verse. It is in your best interest to not bring any forgein ideas to any text when the context of the text does not support it, given the fact that the text is clear and complete in form and structure.

Joh 19:26 When Jesus therefore saw his mother, and the disciple standing by, whom he loved, he saith unto his mother, Woman, behold thy son!

Where do you get the idea that they were looking at one another?


Carlos, Empty seats = whomsoever JN 3:16. Some time I do not follow you or the relavant meaning of what you say to the issuses at hand.:confused:

Peace to u,

Bill

Last night (after midnight ) before I went to sleep I wanted to ASK YOU to tell me what you understand in John 19:26,27....tell me WHAT YOU BELIEVE is taking place there.

I see ThereseLittleFlower has asked you already,so;
I will sit back, shut my mouth (tape my fingers), be quiet and read what ever you answer her.

don't forget;...all those people in Heb. 12:22 thru 24 are waiting too.

aren't we living in an exciting time?
Carlos

[ChrisB]

You know, BBAS and Carlos are simply having a discussion, not a debate.



From dictionary.com

debate

1. To consider something; deliberate.
2. To engage in argument by discussing opposing points.
3. To engage in a formal discussion or argument.

discussion

1. Consideration of a subject by a group; an earnest conversation.
2. A formal discourse on a topic; an exposition.

So what's the difference?

[suzie]

There seems to be rules in these forums. They state that those of Catholic persuation may come and ask a question about a topic or fellowship but may not enter into discussion. While you think that carlos and the others are ok to do this, it isnt the rules. There is a catholic forum for catholic discussion. Since Carlos is Catholic, then Mary to him is an eternal virgin who did not have other children and such, which is unlike the protestant stand. The core of the discussion will then become catholic vs protestant. Since the poster originally put this in the nondenominational place, then only protestants shoulld be discussing this, not catholics. I dont know how hard that is to understand and why you all think that this is so hard or wrong to say. If it doesnt matter, then why would they have these rules?

[Svt4Him]

Doesn't (Rev. 12:17) say that ALL who OBEY GOD and are LOYAL TO JESUS CHRIST are Mary's children?.......ANYONE who considers himself a DISCIPLE (John 19:27

And the dragon was wroth with the woman, and went to make war with the remnant of her seed, which keep the commandments of God, and have the testimony of Jesus Christ.

This woman is Mary? When did the flood come after her?:

And the serpent cast out of his mouth water as a flood after the woman, that he might cause her to be carried away of the flood.

And when did the earth open it's mouth to help Mary?:

And the earth helped the woman, and the earth opened her mouth, and swallowed up the flood which the dragon cast out of his mouth

If we welcome Her , we find FAVOR from God,(her Husband)
Wow. (bolding mine)

As for the catholic/protestant issue and what can be posted here, I've found that's a winless debate/discussion.

[jingwei]

Why do people venerate Mary?

[BBAS 64]

Hi BBAS

You know, this is the second time in the last week I have run into this understanding of this passage, and I have to say, that in all the 30 years I was a Protestant, I never understood it any other way than Jesus was indeed referring to John when He said, "behold your son" . . . That always seemed to me to be the plain reading of the text as well as what teahers I was under reinforced . . .!
Good day, TLF

I have read this many a times and have never seen with in the text "behold your son" as being John. Isee this as a very intamite time between a Mother and her son, Mary must have been in complete shcok and it breaks my heart the pain she must be feeling in this scene. This is all about the Lord and all attention was given to him by his mother and those in attendance.

I believe that it is Augustine that draws a complete picture of this passage in light of the term "woman" my time has not yet come . To this passage "woman" behold your son, this is in fact his time. Were the very flesh given to him by his mother is being distroyed for her own good and the good of all who are the believing ones.

I didn't have the full Catholic concept that Jesus was givng all believers to Mary and Mary to all beleivers, but I did very clearly understand that Jesus was giving John to Mary and Mary to John for her earthly care . . that never was a quiestion .. !
I do also understand that Mary was given to John for his care. The Catholic concept is some what unclear to me given the grammer used with in the text. I find the passage as a whole to be sound with in its self and the conclusions of the passage to be self eveident, John took Mary with him as Jesus had asked him to.


Yet from you here, and another elsewhere, I have run into the idea that Jesus was telling Mary to behiold Himself . ..!
I see here that the reading of the text supports that.

The other poster said that when Jesus said "Behold your mother" He we telling John that He Himself was John's mother . . not Mary . . I don't think you are holding that belief . . but I could be wrong . .!
I do not hold to that belif, and find that lacking any foundation with in the pages of Scripture.

Can you explain to me where your idea comes from that Jesus was referring to Himself when He said "behold your son"?


And who do you understand He was referring to when He told John "Behold your mother"?


Thanks .. I do look forward to your reply as this intrigues me.


Peace in Him!
Tlf, I believe that I have done the best I can do, hope this helps.

Peace to u,:clap:
Bill

[KennySe]

Since Carlos is Catholic, then Mary to him is an eternal virgin who did not have other children and such, which is unlike the protestant stand. The core of the discussion will then become catholic vs protestant
Don't you know that the belief that Mary is Ever-Virgin is not exclusively a Catholic belief, that there are Protestants and Protestant denominations that hold this same belief?

[suzie]

Really, what protestant faiths would those be?

[KennySe]

Then you haven't asked around?

[KennySe]

Why do people venerate Mary?

Am I allowed on this particular forum to answer why I venerate Mary?

If not, I will gladly answer you if you ask me on OBOB.

[Church Punk]

Mar 6:3 (http://www.blueletterbible.org/cgi-bin/popup.pl?book=Mar&chapter=6&verse=3&version=kjv)Is not this the carpenter, the son of Mary, the brother of James, and Joses, and of Juda, and Simon? and are not his sisters here with us? And they were offended at him.

It's fact that Mary and Joseph had other kids!

[jingwei]

Tell me why you venerate Mary.
And why she is portrayed as a white woman clothed in scarlet and linen.

[KennySe]

Tell me why you venerate Mary.
And why she is portrayed as a white woman clothed in scarlet and linen.

I'm not sure if one board member (you) can give me permission to answer here. If a mod says I am allowed to answer, then I will.

Meantime, would you provide an official Catholic portrayal of Mary clothed in scarlet and linen?

[Rising_Suns]

I'm not sure if one board member (you) can give me permission to answer here. If a mod says I am allowed to answer, then I will.

Meantime, would you provide an official Catholic portrayal of Mary clothed in scarlet and linen?
Kenny, we can answer questions if we are asked. just no debating :)

[Rising_Suns]

Tell me why you venerate Mary.
And why she is portrayed as a white woman clothed in scarlet and linen.
Perhaps this may help answer your question......



Why honor Mary?

The bible tells us that Mary was set apart from all women and full of grace; “Hail Mary, full of grace, the Lord is with you.” (Luke 1:28), “most blessed are you among women, and blessed in the fruit of your womb.” (Luke 1:42). These words alone are a powerful testimony to the degree of holiness Mary had. To be full of God’s grace is to be living completely in the spirit and not of the flesh; it is to be living without the tarnish of sin.

It only makes sense that God would choose and bless such a person to bear His Son. In this way, Catholics honor Mary for bearing God’s son and we recognize her as our spiritual mother, but in no way do we worship her. We know that is it Jesus and Jesus alone that made our salvation possible, and without His sacrifice Mary would be just like any other person. But because of Jesus, she is not just like any other person, and the bible makes this very clear.



Isn’t praying to Mary like worship her?

No. To explain this, let us look at what we say to Mary when we pray to her. In the beginning and throughout most of the Hail Mary prayer, all we do is repeat what is already directly stated in the Bible. The only request we make to Mary is in the final words of the prayer; “pray for us sinners, now, and at the hour of our death. Amen.” So you see, when we pray to Mary, all we are doing is asking her to pray for us. We know that through her motherly love, she will undoubtedly petition to God on our behalf. This is all the Hail Mary prayer is; a request for Mary to petition to God on our behalf. It is really no different than asking our friends and family to pray for us, except unlike people on earth, Mary is now in heaven. Likewise, we ask the Angels Saints in heaven for prayer petitions as well.



Why can’t I just pray directly to God?

One must truly understand the profound power prayer in order to understand why we pray for others, and likewise, why we ask for the petitions from others. We must remember that we are all part of the body of Christ, and so by praying for the good of others, we are essentially praying for the good of the entire Body of Christ. It is so natural and so essential to the spiritual well being of us all, so why would we want just our petitions to be heard when others could be making them on our behalf as well? It is true that we can and should pray directly to God, but should we be that self-centered to think that God listens to our prayers more than He listens to others? And if we find such value the prayers of other people on earth, imagine the value in the petitions of Mary, the Angels, and the Saints in heaven! What powerful and profound spiritual family to have, is it not?

[BBAS 64]

.

"This, without a doubt, was the hour whereof Jesus, when about to turn the water into wine, had said to His mother, 'Woman, what have I to do with thee? mine hour is not yet come.' This hour, therefore, He had foretold, which at that time had not yet arrived, when it should be His to acknowledge her at the point of death, and with reference to which He had been born as a mortal man. At that time, therefore, when about to engage in divine acts, He repelled, as one unknown, her who was the mother, not of His divinity, but of His human infirmity; but now, when in the midst of human sufferings, He commended with human affection the mother by whom He had become man. For then, He who had created Mary became known in His power; but now, that which Mary had brought forth was hanging on the cross. A passage, therefore, of a moral character is here inserted. The good Teacher does what He thereby reminds us ought to be done, and by His own example instructed His disciples that care for their parents ought to be a matter of concern to pious children: as if that tree to which the members of the dying One were affixed were the very chair of office from which the Master was imparting instruction. From this wholesome doctrine it was that the Apostle Paul had learned what he taughtt in turn, when he said, 'But if any provide not for his own, and especially for those of his own house, he hath denied the faith, and is worse than an infidel.' And what are so much home concerns to any one, as parents to children, or children to parents? Of this most wholesome precept, therefore, the very Master of the saints set the example from Himself, when, not as God for the hand-maid whom He had created and governed, but as a man for the mother, of whom He had been created, and whom He was now leaving behind, He provided in some measure another son in place of Himself. And why He did so, He indicates in the words that follow: for the evangelist says, 'And from that hour the disciple took her unto his own,' speaking of himself. In this way, indeed, he usually refers to himself as the disciple whom Jesus loved: who certainly loved them all, but him beyond the others, and with a closer familiarity, so that He even made him lean upon His bosom at supper; in order, I believe, in this way to commend the more highly the divine excellence of this very gospel, which He was thereafter to preach through his instrumentality. But what was this 'his own,' unto which John took the mother of the Lord? For he was not outside the circle of those who said unto Him, 'Lo, we have left all, and followed Thee.' No, but on that same occasion he had also heard the words, Every one that hath forsaken these things for my sake, shall receive an hundred times as much in this world. That disciple, therefore, had an hundredfold more than he had cast away, whereunto to receive the mother of Him who had graciously bestowed it all. But it was in that society that the blessed John had received an hundredfold, where no one called anything his own, but they had all things in common; even as it is recorded in the Acts of the Apostles. For the apostles were as if having nothing, and yet possessing all things How was it, then, that the disciple and servant received unto his own the mother of his Lord and Master, where no one called anything his own? Or, seeing we read a little further on in the same book, 'For as many as were possessors of lands or houses sold them, and brought the prices of them, and laid them down at the apostles' feet: and distribution was made unto every man according as he had need,' are we not to understand that such distribution was made to this disciple of what was needful, that there was also added to it the portion of the blessed Mary, as if she were his mother; and ought we not the rather so to take the words, 'From that hour the disciple took her unto his own,' that everything necessary for her was entrusted to his care? He received her, therefore, not unto his own lands, for he had none of his own; but to his own dutiful services, the discharge of which, by a special dispensation, was entrusted to himself." (Tractates on John, 119:1-3)

[Svt4Him]

Mar 6:3 (http://www.blueletterbible.org/cgi-bin/popup.pl?book=Mar&chapter=6&verse=3&version=kjv)Is not this the carpenter, the son of Mary, the brother of James, and Joses, and of Juda, and Simon? and are not his sisters here with us? And they were offended at him.

It's fact that Mary and Joseph had other kids!
Those aren't really His brothers, they are his cousins...or so I'm told. Granted the verse says nothing of that, but it is argued. ;)

[BBAS 64]

Those aren't really His brothers, they are his cousins...or so I'm told. Granted the verse says nothing of that, but it is argued. ;)
Oh cousin! ^_^ Not again!:P

Bill

[BBAS 64]

Mat 4:18 And Jesus, walking by the sea of Galilee, saw two brethren, Simon called Peter, and Andrew his brother, casting a net into the sea: for they were fishers.


Brothers or cousins you be the Judge.

[Plan 9]

erm...I was hoping to read and learn from this thread, but I honestly believe that open laughter at others' beliefs is unkind, an inappropriate way to have ones questions answered, and downright depressing for the rest of us to suddenly come across. :cry:

Don't worry; I'll just slink off now...

[BBAS 64]

erm...I was hoping to read and learn from this thread, but I honestly believe that open laughter at others' beliefs is unkind, an inappropriate way to have ones questions answered, and downright depressing for the rest of us to suddenly come across. :cry:

Don't worry; I'll just slink off now...


Plan

Did you read the whole thread?

Bill

[BBAS 64]

Perhaps this may help answer your question......



Why honor Mary?

The bible tells us that Mary was set apart from all women and full of grace; “Hail Mary, full of grace, the Lord is with you.” (Luke 1:28), “most blessed are you among women, and blessed in the fruit of your womb.” (Luke 1:42). These words alone are a powerful testimony to the degree of holiness Mary had. To be full of God’s grace is to be living completely in the spirit and not of the flesh; it is to be living without the tarnish of sin.

It only makes sense that God would choose and bless such a person to bear His Son. In this way, Catholics honor Mary for bearing God’s son and we recognize her as our spiritual mother, but in no way do we worship her. We know that is it Jesus and Jesus alone that made our salvation possible, and without His sacrifice Mary would be just like any other person. But because of Jesus, she is not just like any other person, and the bible makes this very clear.



Isn’t praying to Mary like worship her?

No. To explain this, let us look at what we say to Mary when we pray to her. In the beginning and throughout most of the Hail Mary prayer, all we do is repeat what is already directly stated in the Bible. The only request we make to Mary is in the final words of the prayer; “pray for us sinners, now, and at the hour of our death. Amen.” So you see, when we pray to Mary, all we are doing is asking her to pray for us. We know that through her motherly love, she will undoubtedly petition to God on our behalf. This is all the Hail Mary prayer is; a request for Mary to petition to God on our behalf. It is really no different than asking our friends and family to pray for us, except unlike people on earth, Mary is now in heaven. Likewise, we ask the Angels Saints in heaven for prayer petitions as well.



Why can’t I just pray directly to God?

One must truly understand the profound power prayer in order to understand why we pray for others, and likewise, why we ask for the petitions from others. We must remember that we are all part of the body of Christ, and so by praying for the good of others, we are essentially praying for the good of the entire Body of Christ. It is so natural and so essential to the spiritual well being of us all, so why would we want just our petitions to be heard when others could be making them on our behalf as well? It is true that we can and should pray directly to God, but should we be that self-centered to think that God listens to our prayers more than He listens to others? And if we find such value the prayers of other people on earth, imagine the value in the petitions of Mary, the Angels, and the Saints in heaven! What powerful and profound spiritual family to have, is it not? Good Day,Rising_suns

Do you have source for this, or is it yours?

For His Glory Alone!

Bill

[thereselittleflower]

There seems to be rules in these forums. They state that those of Catholic persuation may come and ask a question about a topic or fellowship but may not enter into discussion. While you think that carlos and the others are ok to do this, it isnt the rules. There is a catholic forum for catholic discussion. Since Carlos is Catholic, then Mary to him is an eternal virgin who did not have other children and such, which is unlike the protestant stand. The core of the discussion will then become catholic vs protestant. Since the poster originally put this in the nondenominational place, then only protestants shoulld be discussing this, not catholics. I dont know how hard that is to understand and why you all think that this is so hard or wrong to say. If it doesnt matter, then why would they have these rules?
Hi suzie . .the rules seem purposefully vague . . I think to allow us to maturely discuss with each other rather than say "mommy, tommy's looking at me" . .

I don't se why it has to become Catholic versus protestant, it an be catholic AND protestant . . if it does though, then the mods can step in, don't you agree?


As I said, these kind of discussions happen quite a bit in OBOB . . it would be very nice if our Protestant brethern could show us the same courtesy. That allows for real fellowship IMHO. :)


Peace in Him!

[Rising_Suns]

Mat 4:18 And Jesus, walking by the sea of Galilee, saw two brethren, Simon called Peter, and Andrew his brother, casting a net into the sea: for they were fishers.


Brothers or cousins you be the Judge.

brother,
I do not mean to start a debate, but I thought this issue was long past cleared up. Jesus Himself said that whoever believes in Him are His brothers and sisters, in much the same way I just addressed you.


Good Day,Rising_suns

Do you have source for this, or is it yours?

For His Glory Alone!

Bill
Bill,
yes I wrote it.

[Rising_Suns]

I don't se why it has to become Catholic versus protestant, it an be catholic AND protestant

Yes, I believe wholeheartedly that we must learn to fellowship with one another and have mature open discussion. But if anyone does not want me to post here, I will not. I realize this is a Protestant forum, so we should certainly limit the dicussion aspect of it, and focus more on the fellowship. Why don't we begin each post by saying something nice about each other? :)

[ChrisB]

As I said, these kind of discussions happen quite a bit in OBOB

Do you mean like this thread http://www.christianforums.com/t682878 which was closed by a mod after a handful of posts on the basis that the question was answered? Fair enough, maybe it was answered but if this current thread hasn't been answered after 50+ posts it never will be!

[Carlos Vigil]

From dictionary.com

debate

1. To consider something; deliberate.
2. To engage in argument by discussing opposing points.
3. To engage in a formal discussion or argument.

discussion

1. Consideration of a subject by a group; an earnest conversation.
2. A formal discourse on a topic; an exposition.

So what's the difference?

"...for the letter killeth, but The Spirit giveth Life."

Carlos

[ChrisB]

"...for the letter killeth, but The Spirit giveth Life."

Carlos

What on earth is that supposed to mean? :scratch:

[Carlos Vigil]

Doesn't (Rev. 12:17) say that ALL who OBEY GOD and are LOYAL TO JESUS CHRIST are Mary's children?.......ANYONE who considers himself a DISCIPLE (John 19:27

And the dragon was wroth with the woman, and went to make war with the remnant of her seed, which keep the commandments of God, and have the testimony of Jesus Christ.

This woman is Mary? When did the flood come after her?:

Yes, this IS MARY. (see verse 5); "she gave birth to a son......."
You should see the FLOOD of anti-Mary, anti-Catholic, & anti Christ literature
I (and other Catholics ) get in the mail and e-mail and hand delivered .



And the serpent cast out of his mouth water as a flood after the woman, that he might cause her to be carried away of the flood.

And when did the earth open it's mouth to help Mary?:

...if you ever go to the city dump... there you will see BIG CATERPILLARS open BIG HOLES in the earth and all the jack chick, jehovah witness, angry anti-Catholic , anti Mary stuff is "swallowed up....books, pamphlets, casettes,ETC.,all of it ends up there , and the EARTH digests it all.....URP !




And the earth helped the woman, and the earth opened her mouth, and swallowed up the flood which the dragon cast out of his mouth
Wow. (bolding mine)
As for the catholic/protestant issue and what can be posted here, I've found that's a winless debate/discussion.



......and guess where those who produce and distribute this FLOOD of stuff
get their power from ???

"Let the wicked continue in their wicked ways, the depraved in their depravity ! The virtuous must live on in their virtue and the holy ones in their holiness. Remember, I am coming soon ! I bring with me the reward that will be given to EACH MAN as his conduct deserves." (Rev. 22:11,12)

that's a winless debate/discussion.

THIS is not Catholic vs. Protestant, but TRUTH vs. disception
Carlos

[Carlos Vigil]

Those aren't really His brothers, they are his cousins...or so I'm told. Granted the verse says nothing of that, but it is argued. ;)


If you follow the THREAD in the Gospels of Mark & Matthew; the naming of the disciples, the women at the crucifixion, and Acts 1:13, you will be shown
by the EVANGELISTS instead of the unbelievers of Mark 6:3 who the parents of the "brothers" of Jesus really are....Alphaeus & the other Mary.
Alphaeus is also known as Cleopas of the road to Emaus.

the perception of the "dufuses" of Mark6:3 are there to trap those who do not LOVE THE TRUTH, God sends them a strong delusion so they believe a lie and result in being condemned. (2 thess. 2:11)

The Gospel writers TRUTHFULLY tell us who the parents of the "brothers" of Jesus are.
the Gospel writers also tell us what the "dufuses" of Mark 6:3 WONDER and ask who they are .( and out of that ASKING many think they know the facts)
when all they have done is latch on to a lie.
I tell you this at risk of being booted from this forum.
Carlos

[Carlos Vigil]

Yes, I believe wholeheartedly that we must learn to fellowship with one another and have mature open discussion. But if anyone does not want me to post here, I will not. I realize this is a Protestant forum, so we should certainly limit the dicussion aspect of it, and focus more on the fellowship. Why don't we begin each post by saying something nice about each other? :)


OK, Rising-Suns,
I will say something nice about you to you.
aaahhhhh...mmmmm ...let me see now.......OH YES !!!
You made me laugh out loud helplessly and uncontrolably when you wrote
"mommy,mommy, tommy is looking at me !!!
You caught me at an unguarded moment....or maybe God is telling me to LIGHTEN UP ! already.
THANK YOU, THANK YOU, THANK YOU !
TRULY, The Joy of the Lord MUST BE OUR STRENGTH !

Thanks again
Carlos

[Carlos Vigil]

What on earth is that supposed to mean? :scratch:


it means that many man inspired laws tend to STRANGLE and intimidate a person so that he won't say what he would like to say.

I do not think these forum rules are unreasonable, but OUR INTERPRETATION
of them may may make US unreasonable.

The Holy Spirit That God has given us does not make us timid or cowardly
but it is a Spirit of Power and of Love and sound and Disciplined Mind.
Like St. Paul; "I believed and so I spoke"

If we submit to the Leading of the Holy Spirit, will we Think, Say or Do what
ever He prompts us ?
If we submit to pleasing men, will we dismiss the promptings of the Holy Spirit....and end up very legalistic and maybe even
spiritually dead ?

Carlos

[ChrisB]

I take your response to mean that you don't believe you are bound by forum rules...............................

Are you bound by Colossians 2:4-5?

Colossians 2
4I tell you this so that no one may deceive you by fine-sounding arguments. 5For though I am absent from you in body, I am present with you in spirit and delight to see how orderly you are and how firm your faith in Christ

[thereselittleflower]

Do you mean like this thread http://www.christianforums.com/t682878 which was closed by a mod after a handful of posts on the basis that the question was answered?
Timing is everything, right Chris?


Peace in Him!

[thereselittleflower]

Chris, why don't you take a look at this one as an example of what I am speaking of

http://www.christianforums.com/t682988&page=1



Peace in Him!

[qhane]

Theotokos, my mother, you who bore the Lord our God in your womb, you the gate through which he entered into the world lift my prayers up to your Son. Daughter of Zion, I want to eat of this blessed fruit, the blessed fruit of your womb, who hung on a tree, who's flesh is food indeed and blood is drink indeed. The Cross became the tree of life, the altar of our High Priest and Paschal Lamb. Theotokos! Theotokos! Most blessed of all women, pray for me, a sinner





Would you be so kind as to find a scripture that backs up the theory of Mary bringing prayers up to her son? Also another scriptural verse that says Mary is the MOST blessed of all women?

[Rising_Suns]

perhaps some of us should take a step back so we can have a productive discussion and not a monologue.



To my Protestand brethren,
I apologize for Carlos. Lets please try to continue to keep our lines of civil communication open in the future and not let the behavior of one person affect your judgment of all of us.

[thereselittleflower]

Theotokos, my mother, you who bore the Lord our God in your womb, you the gate through which he entered into the world lift my prayers up to your Son. Daughter of Zion, I want to eat of this blessed fruit, the blessed fruit of your womb, who hung on a tree, who's flesh is food indeed and blood is drink indeed. The Cross became the tree of life, the altar of our High Priest and Paschal Lamb. Theotokos! Theotokos! Most blessed of all women, pray for me, a sinner









Would you be so kind as to find a scripture that backs up the theory of Mary bringing prayers up to her son? Also another scriptural verse that says Mary is the MOST blessed of all women?






qhane

I am not allowed to debate in this forum with you . . but if you bring this question to One Bread One Body, I and others would be most happy to help you with this and answer your questions.

We are just a few forums below you in the list of forums in the Congregation area of CF


:)


Peace in Him!

[Rising_Suns]

Theotokos, my mother, you who bore the Lord our God in your womb, you the gate through which he entered into the world lift my prayers up to your Son. Daughter of Zion, I want to eat of this blessed fruit, the blessed fruit of your womb, who hung on a tree, who's flesh is food indeed and blood is drink indeed. The Cross became the tree of life, the altar of our High Priest and Paschal Lamb. Theotokos! Theotokos! Most blessed of all women, pray for me, a sinner









Would you be so kind as to find a scripture that backs up the theory of Mary bringing prayers up to her son? Also another scriptural verse that says Mary is the MOST blessed of all women?







Yes, we will be happy to answer your question if you come to "One Bread One Body" to ask it. We cannot debate here.

[ChrisB]

Chris, why don't you take a look at this one as an example of what I am speaking of

http://www.christianforums.com/t682988&page=1



Peace in Him!

I have - it's been closed a little over 24 hours after it started with a warning from a mod to Protestant members about debating! Proves my point I think.....

[suzie]

I take it that the person who originated this post was posing this questions to noncatholics. Otherwise it would have been posted in the Catholic forum or it was a mistakenly posted here.

[kandice2007]

When God chose Mary to be the mother of Jesus, Mary asked the Angel why her and he said "Because the Lord has found favor in you".... But then when Jesus was crucified and on many other occasions he called her woman to show that she too would have to be saved and she too would live a life full of temptation and sin.


Kandice

[Carlos Vigil]

When God chose Mary to be the mother of Jesus, Mary asked the Angel why her and he said "Because the Lord has found favor in you".... But then when Jesus was crucified and on many other occasions he called her woman to show that she too would have to be saved and she too would live a life full of temptation and sin.

Kandice

Dear Kandice2007,
Please tell me where in scripture he called her woman..."to show that she too would have to be saved...etc,etc."???????

In Luke 1:28 when the Angel said to Her "Hail, Full of grace ..."
Doesn't that tell you that THE MESSENGER OF GOD sees her as FULL OF GRACE ?....
if She is Full of Grace , is She not already living IN GOD'S SALVATION ??? or is "Full of Grace" count for nothing ???

if She was EMPTY of grace, or HALF-FULL of Grace then I might agree with you that she needed to "get saved"

I prefer to believe "as Eve came from Adam & thru them we became sinners; in the same reversal of the process;
as from Mary came Jesus Christ we can become JUST (thru our obedience)

"Just as through one man's disobedience all became sinners, so through one man's obedience all shall become just." (Rom. 5:19)

and are we called to OBEDIENCE OF FAITH OR NOT ???

Respectfully,
Carlos

[Carlos Vigil]

erm...I was hoping to read and learn from this thread, but I honestly believe that open laughter at others' beliefs is unkind, an inappropriate way to have ones questions answered, and downright depressing for the rest of us to suddenly come across. :cry:

Don't worry; I'll just slink off now...

Dear plan 9,
Please help me out....The recent storm took out my phone from 6:pm Fri. 5/21/04 till Wed. pm. 5/26/04...so I was taken out of this discussion.

when I returned and read your post right after my laughing at Rising-suns comment,I felt very bad that I may have caused you depression.

in addition to that I also read where Rising-Suns apologized for my behavior on Sunday at 9:55 am.

The question is; since you posted your disappointment and depression on Thursday at 5:12 pm,
...and I posted my laughter on Friday at 5:17 pm, Can you tell me what specific post brought on your disappointment?

It seems that you expressed depression before I expressed laughter !

What am I missing ? Did I offend some one here while I was out for (5)days that I don't know about ???

please don't leave because of me.
If my laughter comes across as rudeness, then I owe you an apology.
but The Word says "owe no man anything except to love him."

in the Love of Christ
to you, Carlos

[Carlos Vigil]

I take it that the person who originated this post was posing this questions to noncatholics. Otherwise it would have been posted in the Catholic forum or it was a mistakenly posted here.


Dear Suzie,
I didn't take it as Catholic or non-Catholic.
since it is on the internet I took it to be directed universally at ANYONE,anywhere who has any interest in The Virgin Mary, The Mother of Our Lord Jesus Christ.

since the beginning of this thread your posts have been urging us Catholics to go some where else. ....tell me,
If I wandered inside your church one fine day, would you also want to usher me out ???

does this thread belong to you ? do you belong to God ?
I also belong to God.

I offered my living body to Him again this morning at the ALTAR,
and would you believe it ?
He received me !!!...

your (would you believe it ?) brother in Christ,
Carlos

[ShirChadash]

:wave: Hello Carlos

This is my personal take on the congregational fora and questions/discussions/debates in each. I am not a moderator, so take it for what it is worth. My understanding and thoughts are that,

1) at least most people, if not all, clearly know there is a forum here under which almost any type of faith-system known to true Christianity would specifically fall, at least generally; most know it is in those congregational fora that "outsiders" to that group may ask questions and receive answers, clarification, etc. regarding any issues from that particular group's standpoint. I think most people realize that when they want the views of a certain grouping of people (those in a particular denomination or of a certain faith tradition, etc.) then they are able to (and should) go directly into that specific group's forum and ask their questions directly to that group of members.

2) the way I read the basic forum rules for all of these differing congregational fora, it is very clear to me that there is a huge difference between
asking questions as to any group's views on an issue, and presenting my own viewpoint on that issue in that group's congregational forum, as a non-member of that particular group.
Yes, I could say that it is with a heart of love and desire for peace and clear understanding that I might post my or my church's view on any given issue in, say for example, the OBOB forum on any discussion thread or after my question has been answered by Catholics a few times already, clearly, as to what the Catholic position is. I can call it what I like and have whatever "intention" I care to claim in presenting and supporting/contending for my own posting of my own views... but the fact is -- my getting that group's views has little to do with me presenting scriptures and declaringmy views/my church's views and/or my understanding (as an outsider to that group) of the issue some two, three, or more times even after a question has been reasonably answered by that forum's members as to their view/their church's view. The "intent" and "reasoning" I may think I have for presenting my own views on an issue wouldn't nullify the fact that I begin to debate when I post in support of my views rather than merely seek the Catholic (or whatever other group's) stand on said issue. Am I making sense?

3) That said, it is quite clear to me that the OP of this thread, since it is in, specifically, the non-denominational forum, was indeed seeking answers particularly from the non-denominational members of CF... and had the OP been seeking the answers of any particular denominational group/faith-tradition, the thread would have been posted in the appropriate forum for those members to respond to and flesh out there. While it seems to me (again, I am not a mod) that no Christian here would be excluded from simply and respectfully stating their views on this thread here in this forum, whatever faith tradition/denomination they claim, I have to say it is frustrating to me that people pretend not to realize that there is a tremendous difference between coming onto this thread and saying something like,
"in case you are interested, the Catholic (Anglican, Lutheran, Messianic, Baptist, whatever) position on this question is...",
and
coming back around to post your views, supporting scriptures and comments, numerous times, in order to present and substantiate the reasoning behind the Catholic/Anglican/Lutheran/whatever DENOMINATIONAL (or specific faith tradition) stance you as a member of CF hold to.
Once again, I hope I am being clear... It's about 5 AM and I need coffee... *blink*

I do know this: many people from the denominational and faith-tradition fora commonly try to slide into discussions in the other denominational and faith-tradition fora, so they can present their particular group's views and then return (sometimes a few times) to peacefully present scriptures and the reasoning behind their views, etc., and essentially contend for their own stand (oh, I know... it isn't debate, eh? ;) But it is. It is contending for, supporting, and frankly arguing -- heatedly or not, respectfully or not -- my own/my church's/your own/your church's/other poster's own "outsider"-views andagainst that congregational-forum members' and church's views). I think it is just silly that so many people claim not to understand the ins and outs of what is and is not debate, and what is and is not appropriate posting in the various areas of this site.

Carlos, I want to say... I find most of your posts in this thread to be confrontive and aggressive, and apparently I am not the only one. Your fellow Catholic may have also seen your posts this way (though I wouldn't presume to speak for him) since he felt it reasonable to apologize on your behalf. It seems to me that your posts indicate a disdainful attitude toward the views of those folks who disagree with your faith-tradition's views on this issue (to me, your habit of stating the very crux of the issue in all caps shows me you think your fellow posters who hold an opposing viewpoint to yours are not "getting" the crux of the issue... like here:

and are we called to OBEDIENCE OF FAITH OR NOT ???
also, using a lot of ???? and sarcasm, which some of your posting at least borders on, shows a true heart of disrespect and disdain for your fellow posters here, IMHO. I am trying hard to be clear, and have used color-changes and italics/bold to make myself more clear in this post... I am not intending to be disdainful or aggressive myself, so I hope I am not coming across that way in my posting.)

I'm not Suzie, but in reply to your comment here:

Dear Suzie,
I didn't take it as Catholic or non-Catholic.
since it is on the internet I took it to be directed universally at ANYONE,anywhere who has any interest in The Virgin Mary, The Mother of Our Lord Jesus Christ.

I'm assuming it would be perfectly legitimate then, in your opinion, for all of us at CF who are not Catholic to come waltzing into the OBOB Catholic forum (which I use as example, since you yourself bear the Catholic icon) and -- since it is the internet and all threads are directed univerally at ANYONE (as you said up there ^) , no matter where they are posted -- even in the congregational fora here at CF -- then we non-Caths should be able to not only post our views but contend for them regarding any issue posted in the Catholic forum, about which we have any interest... and not be told to stop posting inappropriately. Is this what you are saying? For that matter, then it doesn't really matter that CF states this area of the board is for Christians-only, and all the non-Christians should feel free to come on into our congregational fora and post their views as well -- is that what you're saying -- that because it's posted on the internet, anywhere, that anyone in general is welcome to reply to any thread no matter what guidelines might be set in place over any specific forum? I think those who make and enforce the very reasonable posting guidelines here at CF might have a bit of disagreement with you on that, if this is what you are trying to say....

I post in shalom, Carlos. I hope you'll take a step back and consider what I have posted. Have a great day :)

[suzie]

Dear Suzie,
I didn't take it as Catholic or non-Catholic.
since it is on the internet I took it to be directed universally at ANYONE,anywhere who has any interest in The Virgin Mary, The Mother of Our Lord Jesus Christ.

since the beginning of this thread your posts have been urging us Catholics to go some where else. ....tell me,
If I wandered inside your church one fine day, would you also want to usher me out ???

does this thread belong to you ? do you belong to God ?
I also belong to God.

I offered my living body to Him again this morning at the ALTAR,
and would you believe it ?
He received me !!!...

your (would you believe it ?) brother in Christ,
Carlos
Carlos-
If you take time to read the parameters for posting or not posting in an area then you will have a clearer understanding of what I have been saying, although Zemirah said it very well I do believe.
I purposely stay out of the Catholic threads because I have different core doctrinal values than the Catholics do, and having been one myself for a number of years (and yes, I "really understand" what it means to be a Catholic) I find that any doctrinal issue soon comes into debate and a no win one, due to these differences. If someone wants a perspective on the Catholic view they certainly have an area to post. If they want the view from the Lutherans they have an area, and they also have an area for nondenominationals.

The CF has departmentalized the denominations so that people may learn from all scopes of Christianity and religion without being attacked and other views forced upon them.
You can either learn from the nondenominational thread or you can post your view in the Catholic area which you denominationally belong for those who want to come in and view may also see.
When you joined this forum, you agreed to terms and standards that they have set.

[Rising_Suns]

since it is on the internet I took it to be directed universally at ANYONE,anywhere who has any interest in The Virgin Mary, The Mother of Our Lord Jesus Christ.
Carlos,
I agree with what you are saying as it apply's to the real world, but in here, you have to stick to the rules (read below). We need to give our fellow Protestants brothers and sisters their space.

3) Non-Protestant members (eg. Catholic members) can only post fellowship posts here or posts to ask a question regarding Protestant or Evangelical doctrine. Once the question is answered, there shall be no debate over the answer in this forum by the Non-Protestant. Any debate posts by Non-Protestants will be deleted or moved to the Interdenominational Doctrine Debate forum. In other words, only Protestant members can debate here.

[Carlos Vigil]

Carlos,
I agree with what you are saying as it apply's to the real world, but in here, you have to stick to the rules (read below). We need to give our fellow Protestants brothers and sisters their space.

3) Non-Protestant members (eg. Catholic members) can only post fellowship posts here or posts to ask a question regarding Protestant or Evangelical doctrine. Once the question is answered, there shall be no debate over the answer in this forum by the Non-Protestant. Any debate posts by Non-Protestants will be deleted or moved to the Interdenominational Doctrine Debate forum. In other words, only Protestant members can debate here.


Let it be done unto me according to your word.

[Blindfaith316]

I am not a child of Mary, I am a child of God. Mary was a human who gave birth to the Messiah.
a handmaiden to be exact... :clap: ITA!