Is this forum anti-WoF?

[JAS4Yeshua]

Or is it meant to be a positive forum where we can discuss what we believe?

I have defended this forum and its members from attack. I know we have been mercilessly attacked by those in the SF/PC forum, and that has caused us to lash out in this forum. Pete is right when he says that it doesn't make it any better.

I know there are problems on both sides of the fence. It isn't limited to just one group of people. But I think we've been going about it incorrectly. Instead of trying to defend our forum and beliefs, and then come back in here to vent frustrations, why don't we find ways to make this forum positive, without discussing what we disagree with about WoF?

I don't know who is with me on this idea, but if you are, post your intent in this thread. We don't have to respond to those who call us anti-WoF. We don't have to respond to those who say that we are WoF haters. We don't have to feel taunted by Dids' "mere theism" remarks. Instead, we can simply forgive them, and be confident of our walk with Christ. We don't have to come in here to complain about the latest PHIA teaching, the latest prosperity issue, or even the latest preacher scandal. Instead we can find ways of glorifying Christ with what we believe.

If you agree with this, and are willing to step up to the challenge, then please post your willingness here. I think we can show those who bash us the truth about us more by how we act and react than we ever will by trying to argue them into submission. We don't have to agree with them, we can even debate topics with them, but we do so without returning the insults or adding our own labels. Obviously, we're not looking for perfection, but looking for how we can glorify Christ through our actions here.

[Tamara224]

Never mind. I'm tired and I shouldn't be posting.

[robbymac]

Or is it meant to be a positive forum where we can discuss what we believe?

I have defended this forum and its members from attack. I know we have been mercilessly attacked by those in the SF/PC forum, and that has caused us to lash out in this forum. Pete is right when he says that it doesn't make it any better.

I know there are problems on both sides of the fence. It isn't limited to just one group of people. But I think we've been going about it incorrectly. Instead of trying to defend our forum and beliefs, and then come back in here to vent frustrations, why don't we find ways to make this forum positive, without discussing what we disagree with about WoF?

I don't know who is with me on this idea, but if you are, post your intent in this thread. We don't have to respond to those who call us anti-WoF. We don't have to respond to those who say that we are WoF haters. We don't have to feel taunted by Dids' "mere theism" remarks. Instead, we can simply forgive them, and be confident of our walk with Christ. We don't have to come in here to complain about the latest PHIA teaching, the latest prosperity issue, or even the latest preacher scandal. Instead we can find ways of glorifying Christ with what we believe.

If you agree with this, and are willing to step up to the challenge, then please post your willingness here. I think we can show those who bash us the truth about us more by how we act and react than we ever will by trying to argue them into submission. We don't have to agree with them, we can even debate topics with them, but we do so without returning the insults or adding our own labels. Obviously, we're not looking for perfection, but looking for how we can glorify Christ through our actions here.
This forum was never designed to be anti-WOF, just a place where people who aren't WOF can safely discuss issues and teachings without being attacked, judged, and condemned by a few -- A FEW -- WOF extremists.

I helped write the Wiki for this sub-forum, so I am quite confident in asserting that it was NEVER our intention to create an anti-WOF place, no matter how many "Hitler youth" or "hate mongering" accusations were thrown at us (and continue to be thrown at us) by Dids.

Having said that, however, if for some reason this sub-forum degenerated into an anti-WOF flame-fest, I'd be the first to write "Ichabod" over the door and leave. That's not what we created this sub-forum for. It's meant to be a safe place without WOF interference, and that's it. Let's do as the OP suggests -- avoid pointless debates in the main forum (so the temptation to vent here is lessened) and let's set the example of Christlike behaviour by focusing on the positive and encouraging each other.

My stop preaching now. :wave:

[Redheadedstepchild]

I don't know...

I'm kind of here by default anyway. My home at CF is Wesley's Parish. But I'm charismatic too (yes, officially) and don't really fit in any of the other sub-forums. I may not agree with WOF or even Pentecostal beliefs but I'm not anti anyONE. I have nooo desire to debate. I like having a safe place to ask questions. But then, I tend to read and make mostly fellowship posts anyway so maybe it's not such a great need for me.

[BenAdam]

Should this be a place for edification, yes. Should we be allowed to discuss abuses we see in the Church (WoF and otherwise) absolutely. People were very shook up by a thread about prayer in the main forum. The OP was basically slamming everyone that didn't believe exactly as they do, so people that were hurt by it came here to discuss it, is there a problem with that?

BTW, the best thread I have ever seen of CF was right in here, Authority and Tradition.

[jeolmstead]

I’m trying not to be anti anyone.

I’m beginning to believe that it is not WOF I have a problem with. Instead it is a few hateful people.

They would rub me no matter what they believed.

Lord help me not to become like them.


John O.

[ralangley]

Not to pour salt on a wound....

...but, in one post here I attempted to explain a WOF belief that I happen to agree with, and I felt immediately attacked and essentially, told my beliefs were consistent with witchcraft.

To me, that response was far beyond what I ever expected, and far beyond what open dialogue is ever about.

So, to answer your question, is this an anti-WOF forum. To me, of course. Do I belong here because I hold to one WOF position? Of course not.

[Tamara224]

Should this be a place for edification, yes. Should we be allowed to discuss abuses we see in the Church (WoF and otherwise) absolutely. People were very shook up by a thread about prayer in the main forum. The OP was basically slamming everyone that didn't believe exactly as they do, so people that were hurt by it came here to discuss it, is there a problem with that?

BTW, the best thread I have ever seen of CF was right in here, Authority and Tradition.


These are pretty much my sentiments, right here. I wrote out a big long post last night which a couple of you might have seen before I edited. But then I got convicted of some bitterness over it and had to delete it all.

I thought about it, and prayed about it. Now, I think that, yes, we need to forgive and not let bitterness be a part of it. And not return tit for tat.

However, I often post from my heart. Venting the frustration and hurt feelings and, yes, even anger, helps me to let go of it so that I don't become bitter and unforgiving.

I don't care what anyone says, I did not start the thread on "refusing prayer" because I hate anyone. I started it because it hurt me to see something like that in the Body of Christ.

I can't help how some people (a vocal few) judge me. I've made effort after effort to explain myself to them. But nothing I say changes their opinion of me. So, I'm done trying. That is not to say that I want to let loose and flame everyone. But it is to say that I'm just going to be me, and say what's on my mind and not worry about their prejudice.

So, no, this forum is not anti-WoF. And I think we shouldn't worry about that claim. I think we should post what is on our minds and hearts and not try to let them dictate what we talk about.

[BenAdam]

Not to pour salt on a wound....

...but, in one post here I attempted to explain a WOF belief that I happen to agree with, and I felt immediately attacked and essentially, told my beliefs were consistent with witchcraft.

To me, that response was far beyond what I ever expected, and far beyond what open dialogue is ever about.

So, to answer your question, is this an anti-WOF forum. To me, of course. Do I belong here because I hold to one WOF position? Of course not.
Well maybe we let our hair down here a little too much. Most in here tend to have bad experiences with WoF and allow it to show through in discussions of doctrine. I vow to give honest answers to questions and try to check my prejudices at the door.

[Tamara224]

Not to pour salt on a wound....

...but, in one post here I attempted to explain a WOF belief that I happen to agree with, and I felt immediately attacked and essentially, told my beliefs were consistent with witchcraft.

To me, that response was far beyond what I ever expected, and far beyond what open dialogue is ever about.

So, to answer your question, is this an anti-WOF forum. To me, of course. Do I belong here because I hold to one WOF position? Of course not.

I understand that you feel like you were attacked. But honestly, I don't believe that was anyone's intent. I think I know what post you were talking about.

Remember, you posted something that you qualified with a "I hope I didn't offend anyone" - you recognized that your opinion might offend unintentionally. That's the same thing that Simon did. He didn't intentionally offend. He simply stated his honest opinion, knowing that it might offend, but still hoping not to.

IMO, you were not attacked. Simon simply stated the reasons why he believes that WoF beliefs are wrong. Please try to understand that and see it from our POV.

[jeolmstead]

This is what I said when we started this sub forum:

Some thoughts on the new sub-forum


A marked difference I’ve noticed between those who seem to be in this camp and others is a sense that God doesn’t fit inside our heads.

He can’t be reduced to principles or bound to our understanding of “good”. Yes, God is good, but it is His definition of the word, not ours.

Personally, I am very comfortable with a God who is bigger then I could ever understand. There seems to be a sense among some of us that “It really isn’t about us” It is an honor to serve and it’s in the loosing of our lives that we find true life.

Some of us are very comfortable with the supernatural. But, we are also comfortable with the natural. And, we do not see the great schism between the two. After all, God is the Lord of both. We have found that it is not necessary for the two to be at odds with each other at all as long as we are submitted to Christ.

Some of us have come to the conclusion that all the faith we need is the faith to ask. We believe that this is the meaning of the mustard seed.

We believe that the bible is inspired and true. But, we recognize that ours (and other’s) understanding of it sometimes is not. We aspire to let the word define our doctrine as apposed to the other way around.

Anyway, these are some of my thoughts on the matter.


I do not think the purpose here has changed

John O.

[BenAdam]

wow

[ralangley]

I understand that you feel like you were attacked. But honestly, I don't believe that was anyone's intent. I think I know what post you were talking about.

Remember, you posted something that you qualified with a "I hope I didn't offend anyone" - you recognized that your opinion might offend unintentionally. That's the same thing that Simon did. He didn't intentionally offend. He simply stated his honest opinion, knowing that it might offend, but still hoping not to.

IMO, you were not attacked. Simon simply stated the reasons why he believes that WoF beliefs are wrong. Please try to understand that and see it from our POV.

Okay. I guess I responded to the use of emotionally charged words such as "witchcraft". Suddenly, the tone moved from an open discussion of ideas, to a personal attack. I imagine how I felt is comparable to how some WOF people feel when they state their opinion. Granted, I don't agree with everything WOFers say (I frankly don't understand a lot of it) but I enjoy hearing different points of view. It expands my intellectual horizons and sharpens my own opinions. But to use loaded word-bombs (and have no-one call him on it) strikes me as unfair, and polarized.

I know I've been unintentionally insensitive and polarized in my posts. And I know I've always tried to mend whatever damage I caused because of it. I haven't seen that here.

[JAS4Yeshua]

Just to clarify, I know exactly why you started that thread, Tamara, and if you notice in that same thread, I voice the same concerns and frustrations. I know that we aren't about hate, and that some will only see hate. This isn't about that. Neither is this about hiding who we really are, but, rather, showing who we really are, and trying to show Christ's love in our responses. Will we be perfect? Absolutely not. Will there be times we'll still be referred to as anti-WoF or as WoF haters? There is no doubt. Will we still be given labels or terms that are derogitory? Sure. The question, though, is, how will we respond to those remarks. Are we going to argue with them or are we going to forgive them for the slander? Are we going to prove them wrong, not by defending ourselves, but by showing them Christ's love? That is my point.

I will never agree with WoF teachings, just like I know many of you will never agree with them. I think we can still discuss those things without saying things like "like what they believe." We can talk about what we believe in, share Scriptures on God's Will, how God has worked in our lives, with or without healing/prosperity. We can talk about authority and tradition, we can talk about all manner of things. I don't think we need to always respond from a defensive point, though.

Like I said, this isn't about being perfect, but simply about demonstrating Christ's love to the best of our abilities, and trusting the Holy Spirit to guide us in our interactions.

[BenAdam]

Non-Wof forum, being positive.


I'm not sure how this will go over, but I really feel it would be a good idea.

There's been some really negative things said in the Non WOF forum about WOF and I was hoping we could do the opposite of that here.

I'm so so happy to have never read anything negative like that here, but I was thinking we could be in more positive, in other words take say something, anything positive about non WOF here, especially when we're feeling particularly irked by something we've read.

It doesn't have to be huge but just something.

Like I said I'm not sure how this will go over but I'd like to take a stab at it.


So I'll start. Tamara seems like a very intelligent woman.



PS. Positive only.


Posts like this don't help though. It drips with a condescending tone.

[jeolmstead]

Tamara seems like a very intelligent woman?

Who'd thunk it? ;)

John O.

[jeolmstead]

Here's another.....

Ben has a nice eye patch.....

John O.

[JAS4Yeshua]

Posts like this don't help though. It drips with a condescending tone.


That post might have a condescending tone, but I do think it was started with the best intentions. By the responses I have received here, my OP might have come across more condescending, which was not my intent.

As an aside, though, why would we go into the WoF forum to find ways that they talk about us? Is that any different than them coming in here to find ways that we talk about them? This is part of my point, let's stop worrying about what they have to say about us, and instead, show them they are wrong by showing them the love of Christ through our words and actions.

[Tamara224]

Okay. I guess I responded to the use of emotionally charged words such as "witchcraft". Suddenly, the tone moved from an open discussion of ideas, to a personal attack. I imagine how I felt is comparable to how some WOF people feel when they state their opinion. Granted, I don't agree with everything WOFers say (I frankly don't understand a lot of it) but I enjoy hearing different points of view. It expands my intellectual horizons and sharpens my own opinions. But to use loaded word-bombs (and have no-one call him on it) strikes me as unfair, and polarized.

I know I've been unintentionally insensitive and polarized in my posts. And I know I've always tried to mend whatever damage I caused because of it. I haven't seen that here.


Well, I can't speak for him. However, he saw a similarity to witchcraft....and I know that can come across as "loaded" but I don't think it was used as rhetoric or intended to be unfair. I think he intended to show where he saw the similarity between the two things. I'm not sure how he could have worded it so as not to seem that way. And he didn't, imo, just throw it out there without any reasoning behind it. He provided his reasoning as to why he believes the similarities exist.

I know it's not easy to hear. And I know that we often take offense for what you would considered similarly truthful statements from "the other side."

But we can't, imo, go around telling each other what they're allowed to say and not say. We need to (all of us) try and extend a little bit of grace to one another. Realize that what we're saying is simply our own opinions. And yes, they may come across as hurtful. But we should NOT assume that the hurt was intended. We shouldn't assume that the other person has hateful motives. If we give each other the benefit of the doubt a little more, we'd take offense less. IMHO.

An example: When I was a teenager, I had weight issues (I still do). My mom told me that I needed to eat less and excercise more because she was concerned that I was getting fat. Well, that hurt my feelings. I got snippy with her and told her to shut up about it. I just didn't want to hear it. I felt like she didn't have to call me fat, she could've been nicer about it. But the truth was that I was fat. She wasn't telling me what I wanted to hear, but what I needed to hear. And getting hurt and offended by it didn't do me any good. She didn't call me fat because she wanted to hurt my feelings. She called me fat because she wanted to spare me from the struggles that she herself had gone through all her life; she hoped to get me on a better path that would spare me that.

Sometimes we hear things that we don't like to hear. We think that people are being insensitive to our feelings. But often it's true and just because someone says something to us that offends us doesn't mean they wanted to offend us.

Now, sometimes it's not true too. But with such things as we argue about in here...it's not as easy to say "you're absolutely right" or "you're absolutely wrong". We need to recognize that other people's motives aren't necessarily bad just because something they say offends us.

I hope that makes sense.

[BenAdam]

That post might have a condescending tone, but I do think it was started with the best intentions. By the responses I have received here, my OP might have come across more condescending, which was not my intent.

As an aside, though, why would we go into the WoF forum to find ways that they talk about us? Is that any different than them coming in here to find ways that we talk about them? This is part of my point, let's stop worrying about what they have to say about us, and instead, show them they are wrong by showing them the love of Christ through our words and actions.
I actually go in there to read threads, sometimes I come across good stuff.

[ANM29]

I would not say this forum is Anti-WOF as much as it is everybody has their own personal belief system.

That means, we will not agree on everything. It is obvious that many of us don't go along with SOME of the extreme teachings of WOF. They don't agree with what they call some of our extreme views either.

So...........................That is what I see.

There may just be more of 'us' than 'them' and it looks like an all out war on them.

But, I am actually sick of it all to be honest. I am here to do what I feel lead to do and say. If it does not go along with WOF, then that is what it is. I can't apologize for that. I can apologize for many of my sarcastic remarks to many of them.

[ANM29]

These are pretty much my sentiments, right here. I wrote out a big long post last night which a couple of you might have seen before I edited. But then I got convicted of some bitterness over it and had to delete it all.

I thought about it, and prayed about it. Now, I think that, yes, we need to forgive and not let bitterness be a part of it. And not return tit for tat.

However, I often post from my heart. Venting the frustration and hurt feelings and, yes, even anger, helps me to let go of it so that I don't become bitter and unforgiving.

I don't care what anyone says, I did not start the thread on "refusing prayer" because I hate anyone. I started it because it hurt me to see something like that in the Body of Christ.

I can't help how some people (a vocal few) judge me. I've made effort after effort to explain myself to them. But nothing I say changes their opinion of me. So, I'm done trying. That is not to say that I want to let loose and flame everyone. But it is to say that I'm just going to be me, and say what's on my mind and not worry about their prejudice.

So, no, this forum is not anti-WoF. And I think we shouldn't worry about that claim. I think we should post what is on our minds and hearts and not try to let them dictate what we talk about.

I agree.

[Tamara224]

Posts like this don't help though. It drips with a condescending tone.




I saw that yesterday. At first, it really annoyed and offended me. I thought it was a "we're better than they are" kind of thing.

But then I realized that it really just hurt my pride. Especially that part about "Tamara seems like a very intelligent woman." What do you mean "seems"?! ;) :sorry:

No, it's not very helpful. But I don't think offense was intended. If I want people to not judge my motives, I should not do the same to them.

Humility. God help me... I think I just got moved to the lowest seat at the table. Next time I'll try to remember to sit there first. :)

[BenAdam]

I'm just hurt because I"m not mentioned in the thread...
:sorry:

[robbymac]

I'm just hurt because I"m not mentioned in the thread...
:sorry:
Not me. I'm RELIEVED to not be mentioned!

[Simon_Templar]

Okay. I guess I responded to the use of emotionally charged words such as "witchcraft". Suddenly, the tone moved from an open discussion of ideas, to a personal attack. I imagine how I felt is comparable to how some WOF people feel when they state their opinion. Granted, I don't agree with everything WOFers say (I frankly don't understand a lot of it) but I enjoy hearing different points of view. It expands my intellectual horizons and sharpens my own opinions. But to use loaded word-bombs (and have no-one call him on it) strikes me as unfair, and polarized.

I know I've been unintentionally insensitive and polarized in my posts. And I know I've always tried to mend whatever damage I caused because of it. I haven't seen that here.
To me discussions in places like this aren't about people, except in some rare cases where people force their personality into the discussion through extreme unreasonableness etc.

What I said about witchcraft (or intended to say) is basically this.

In the bible witchcraft is synonymous with rebellion. This meshes with my experience in real life which has taught me that both witchcraft and rebellion center around the issues of power and control.

I personally believe that many Christians are essentially engaging in rebellion/witchcraft by the way they try and control things spiritually and the way that the focus on and present spiritual power, and I believe that most of the WoF teachings play directly into this, and encourage it. I think the mindset behind this is directly opposite of that which is presented and commended to Christians in the bible.

Now, addressing the OP. I don't particularly care if people consider me, or us to be anti-WoF. We've had some very good discussions in here that don't have anything to do with WoF and I'm sure we'll have more. However, it is also true that one of the unifying factors of the people in here is that we disagree with WoF teaching as it is commonly presented.
In addition to that, one of the common threads for many of us is a disagreement with several aspects of the charismatic movement that we think have been negative and damaging.

I don't think its realistic to expect us not to talk about those things and if other people have a problem with it, I'm not sure there is much we can do about it.

For example, I happen to like John Piper, and respect him greatly, I think he is a great teacher and a great man of God. Recently in the WoF forum there was a thread in which many of the WoFers made extremely derogatory statements about John Piper because of his views on the prosperity gospel.

You didn't see me going in their forum and harassing them about it...
you didn't see me in the main forum talking about how they are so anti-reformed, or anti-calvinist or what have you.

I'm not trying to defame anyone, and in fact of late I've gone out of my way not to talk about people, but rather just to talk about beliefs and pracitces that bother me and disturb me.

I'm sorry if that offends, but if it does, they are just going to have to deal with it because I'm not going to stop talking about what I believe to be vitally important truths because some people can't handle having their beliefs challenged.

I even generally try to go out of my way to avoid challenging any person directly lest I some how damage the faith of a "weaker brother" through asking questions they aren't ready to face etc.

[ralangley]

:sigh: Whatever. Obviously, I don't belong here.

[flyingsum0]

I dont think its Anti WOF as in the members of this forum want to break off the fingers of the the other forum's memebrs and make wind chimes, but I do think there are things that people disagree on...from tiem to time

[flyingsum0]

I dont think its Anti WOF as if this forum want to break off the fingers of the the other forum and make wind chimes, but I do thin there are things that people disagree on.

Ok seriously...That sounded much more intellectual and intelligent when I was typing it...:sigh:

[JAS4Yeshua]

Yeah, like I disagree with windchime fingers. :P :D

[BenAdam]

Ok seriously...That sounded much more intellectual and intelligent when I was typing it...:sigh:
Sounded good to me!!!

[Simon_Templar]

I dont think its Anti WOF as in the members of this forum want to break off the fingers of the the other forum's memebrs and make wind chimes, but I do think there are things that people disagree on...from tiem to time
you rock :)

[Simon_Templar]

:sigh: Whatever. Obviously, I don't belong here.
I'm not trying to address my criticism of doctrine to you specifically. I barely even know anything about what your beliefs are. We are talking about a whole larger issue here.

All I know about you is that you believe apparently that God wills that everyone should always be healed, as far as I understand.

I'm not saying that makes you a witch.

What I am talking about is the larger idea behind much WoF teaching that because of "who we are in Christ" we have the right to decree things and God will accomplish them.
The central problem here is that it fundamentally exalts the human will above God.

The irony of this is that is basically the same thing that the Roman Catholic Church teaches about Mary. ( some of them anyway).
Some Roman Catholics teach that because of Mary's special role, that God selected her for (ie her special identity) God will do whatever she asks him to do. Some have taught that this makes Mary essentially all powerful because anything she asks, God will automatically do it.

The WoF teaching is basically the same except it applies that idea to every believer.

the problem in it is that it puts the individual's will at the center, instead of God. YOU can receive anything YOU want if YOU will declare it in faith. YOU can speak it into existence etc. Its all about you. That is exactly the opposite of what the bible teaches, which is that we should crucify our own will on a daily basis and submit ourselves to God's will.

It also makes numerous assumptions about God and life that simply don't match what the bible teaches.

The point here is that I'm not trying to condemn you, or attack you, I don't even know what you believe on all that stuff. What I'm talking about is a prevalent idea within that set of teachings known as WoF.

[Simon_Templar]

in regards to the OP, I have been probably too negative recently because I've been confronted with a lot of negatives in my personal experience, both in myself and in other people.

I don't think that we necessarily have to avoid talking about topics of disagreement, but I probably would be better off refocusing to look towards where I am going and the good things God is doing, rather than dwelling on the problems.

[JAS4Yeshua]

in regards to the OP, I have been probably too negative recently because I've been confronted with a lot of negatives in my personal experience, both in myself and in other people.

I don't think that we necessarily have to avoid talking about topics of disagreement, but I probably would be better off refocusing to look towards where I am going and the good things God is doing, rather than dwelling on the problems.
That is kinda the point I've been trying to get across. ;)

[Simon_Templar]

That is kinda the point I've been trying to get across. ;)
I know, thats why I came back and said it, I didn't want you to think that your point was totally lost and falling on deaf ears :)

it was kind of an.. after further review, yea, you have a point ... thing

[NorrinRadd]

...
the problem in it is that it puts the individual's will at the center, instead of God. YOU can receive anything YOU want if YOU will declare it in faith. YOU can speak it into existence etc. Its all about you. ...

Well one problem is that some passages of Scripture DO suggest such things. WoF happens to overemphasize those bits. It's been a nagging suspicion of mine for a few years that one thing that opened the door for WoF was that "traditional" teaching almost totally neglected or tried to explain away those parts.

For example, I think WoF would tend to emphasize John 15:7 and 16:23-24, while the "traditional" view would emphasize 1 John 5:14. By what rule does one outweigh the other?

I'm sure there must be a balance, but I'm not sure exactly what it is or how to maintain it.

[ProdicalChristian]

I don't have problems with many WOFs but I do have problems with WOF extremists which is why I left awhile back. (This is not my primary screen name I had before I quit. I don't remember my password of my previous name because I messed it up on purpose so I won't use it again.)

[Tamara224]

Bump :wave:

[TheMatmanReturns]

I don't have problems with many WOFs but I do have problems with WOF extremists which is why I left awhile back. (This is not my primary screen name I had before I quit. I don't remember my password of my previous name because I messed it up on purpose so I won't use it again.)
I did the exact same thing... That is why I am not TheMatman but instead, TheMatmanReturns.

[TheMatmanReturns]

What I am talking about is the larger idea behind much WoF teaching that because of "who we are in Christ" we have the right to decree things and God will accomplish them.

This is where I have always ridden the fence. On the one hand, I see where the traditional WOF folks sometimes go off the reservation. On the other hand, there is something to be said for exercising delegated authority.

I think the proper balance is that while we are in fact given power of attorney to use Christ's Name for anything that we ask for, that power comes with a great fiduciary responsibilty, the nature of which determines whether we are truly "in faith".

If I use God's power for my whims, then I will be deemed unfaithful, and that which is given will be taken away. Conversely, if I use God's power for the purposes it was intended, then I will be deemed faithful, and I will be given more power.

[Tamara224]

This is where I have always ridden the fence. On the one hand, I see where the traditional WOF folks sometimes go off the reservation. On the other hand, there is something to be said for exercising delegated authority.

I think the proper balance is that while we are in fact given power of attorney to use Christ's Name for anything that we ask for, that power comes with a great fiduciary responsibilty, the nature of which determines whether we are truly "in faith".

If I use God's power for my whims, then I will be deemed unfaithful, and that which is given will be taken away. Conversely, if I use God's power for the purposes it was intended, then I will be deemed faithful, and I will be given more power.

:thumbsup: IMO, this is a good way of looking at it...Like an agency relationship.

A lot of people have "apparent authority" and I think that God even honors that sometimes when the agent acts outside the scope of his authority. However, the agent who claims to be doing something in God's name but is really going about his own business has breached his fiduciary duty - that punctilio of honor the most sensitive, to quote Justice Cardozo - and has proven that he/she is an untrustworthy trustee (servent) and will be removed.

OTOH, there are some people claiming to be God's agents who claim that God has given them express authority to do something, when he hasn't. IOW, they think that God has promised something that He hasn't promised. They believe they are acting within the scope of the authority granted to them by God, but they are basing that on false presumptions.


LOL...probably only lawyers will understand what we're talking about, Mat. :D

[TheMatmanReturns]

:thumbsup: IMO, this is a good way of looking at it...Like an agency relationship.

A lot of people have "apparent authority" and I think that God even honors that sometimes when the agent acts outside the scope of his authority. However, the agent who claims to be doing something in God's name but is really going about his own business has breached his fiduciary duty - that punctilio of honor the most sensitive, to quote Justice Cardozo - and has proven that he/she is an untrustworthy trustee (servent) and will be removed.

OTOH, there are some people claiming to be God's agents who claim that God has given them express authority to do something, when he hasn't. IOW, they think that God has promised something that He hasn't promised. They believe they are acting within the scope of the authority granted to them by God, but they are basing that on false presumptions.


LOL...probably only lawyers will understand what we're talking about, Mat. :D
LOL

[JAS4Yeshua]

:confused: :scratch: :swoon:

[Andry]

LOL...probably only lawyers will understand what we're talking about, Mat. :D
Hmmm, cheapshot, but I guess I shouldn't be surprised that you're acting just like a lawyer. :bow: :P

BTW, lawyers work for me.

[Tenebrae]

Anti WoF, absolutely not.


Anti people that think they have the right to force their views on me, and that I should be listening to what they say without giving me the same courtesy?


Yes

[TheMatmanReturns]

Hmmm, cheapshot, but I guess I shouldn't be surprised that you're acting just like a lawyer. :bow: :P

BTW, lawyers work for me.
No, in fairness, Tamara and I are both lawyers and sometimes when we talk to each other in lawyer speak, although people usually do understand us, there are times we get "huhs" from others.

[jeolmstead]

Two Christian lawyers?

(who would believe that)

John O.

[Tamara224]

Two Christian lawyers?

(who would believe that)

John O.


I wouldn't if I weren't one of them. ;)

And actually, there's three of us who post around here.... habeas is a lawyer too.

[Simon_Templar]

This is where I have always ridden the fence. On the one hand, I see where the traditional WOF folks sometimes go off the reservation. On the other hand, there is something to be said for exercising delegated authority.

I think the proper balance is that while we are in fact given power of attorney to use Christ's Name for anything that we ask for, that power comes with a great fiduciary responsibilty, the nature of which determines whether we are truly "in faith".

If I use God's power for my whims, then I will be deemed unfaithful, and that which is given will be taken away. Conversely, if I use God's power for the purposes it was intended, then I will be deemed faithful, and I will be given more power.
I agree, and I'm not saying we don't have a right to make use of the authority or power of God.

My point is, or was, that the way WoF presents it is that the it is OUR authority, and OUR power.

Much of this is tied up with the way WoF (and I use the term broadly I admit) focuses on defining our identity in Christ. The way it is presented the "in Christ" part seems like a small print foot note to the "who we are" part.

It shifts the focus from us making use of what God has given us, according to his will, to us advancing our own will because we have the right to.

I believe that will is the central issue of Christianity and more specifically learning to submit our will to God's will. The effect of WoF teaching often seems to do exactly the opposite of this.

And again, I use the term WoF loosely, I have doctrinal disagreements with strictly defined WoF but I recognize that a lot of these abuses are not necessarily strictly part of WoF.

[Simon_Templar]

I wouldn't if I weren't one of them. ;)

And actually, there's three of us who post around here.... habeas is a lawyer too.
my brother is a lawyer, does that count?

[Tamara224]

my brother is a lawyer, does that count?


Probably. I know my sister and my brother went to law school vicariously through me. :D

[JAS4Yeshua]

I'm a programmer. I can add tech-speak to the legaleze to really throw this thread into confusion. :D

[Tamara224]

I'm a programmer. I can add tech-speak to the legaleze to really throw this thread into confusion. :D

:D ^_^

[jeolmstead]

my brother is a lawyer, does that count?
we won't hold that against you

you are not responsible for your brother’s “sins”
;)

John O.

[Tamara224]

we won't hold that against you

you are not responsible for your brother’s “sins”
;)

John O.

:mad:

That does it... I'm getting a license in TN... I'm soooo gonna sue you for that.

[Izdaari]

I can't speak for anyone else, but I'm not anti-WoF. I like some of their ideas and some of their preachers, though I don't come close to qualifying as WoF according to their SoF.

[Redheadedstepchild]

I'm not. I may not be WoF but I am not anti WoF, the connotation of "anti" being that I don't think they should exist.

[msbojingles]

I did the exact same thing... That is why I am not TheMatman but instead, TheMatmanReturns.

um, sort of the same thing here. . . except the name thingy. . . :sorry:

I like my wof bros and sistas as much as my non-wof bros and sistas.

[habeas]

I am not anti-WOF, if "anti-WOF" means being "against" WOF believers. However, I am very much "anti" or against some of the doctrines associated with WOF.

I'm not even completely against the WOF healing doctrine, even though I don't agree with PHIA. I do believe in Mark 16:18 concerning the signs of those who believe (they shall lay hands on the sick, and they shall recover). This healing may not be instaneous, nor is failure to be healed necessarily (or for that matter even probably) the fault of the afflicted.

What is troubling to me is the whole "man-centeredness" that I pick up on with some, and I emphasize, some of WOF preachers and adherents.

[Br0kenSunshyne]

I'm anti anti.

[JAS4Yeshua]

I'm anti anti.
I'm anti-hate and pro-Christ. ;)

[rmw8855]

I'm anti-hate and pro-Christ. ;)

:amen:

I know I am not non-WOF, so please forgive me for posting but ... I am not anti non-WOF Alot of my friends are non-WOF

God Bless you all

[seekthetruth909]

For example, I happen to like John Piper, and respect him greatly, I think he is a great teacher and a great man of God. Recently in the WoF forum there was a thread in which many of the WoFers made extremely derogatory statements about John Piper because of his views on the prosperity gospel.


That might be the thread I started a few months ago. I posted a link to a John Piper video and just wrote, "comments please", without expressing any opinion. I few days later I was REPORTED for my post. I couldn't understand why someone would report you for posting a link to a sermon. Sometimes I post links to websites or sermons that I don't even agree with to open a discussion on different views.
It did seem ironic that the same people who attacked John Piper complain if someone criticizes Benny Hinn or Kenneth Copland. I guess only some preachers come under the protected umbrella of, "Anointed one".

Seek