Where is the harm in liquor or drinking..? [Archive]

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reddogs

22nd January 2008, 07:15 AM

I never thought about the harm caused to those who sold the 'spirits' as well as those that imbibed, the wrecks at sea where the Captain was 'under the influence' or the lawmakers who have to pass laws to control the damage after the deaths occur from what they allowed. Here are some counsels from Ellen White that seems years ahead of her time...

"...In every phase of the liquor-selling business, there is dishonesty and violence. The houses of liquor-dealers are built with the wages of unrighteousness, and upheld by violence and oppression. Those who deal in liquor, and those who sustain the traffic, are working in co-partnership with Satan. Through this business they are doing a greater work to perpetuate human woe than are men through any other business in the world. Christians cannot use intoxicating liquors, nor connect themselves in the least degree with any business that leads to the degradation and downfall of humanity. {PH132 1.2}

The rum-seller takes the same position as did Cain, and says, "Am I my brother's keeper?" And God says to him, as He said to Cain, "The voice of thy brother's blood crieth unto Me from the ground." Gen. 4:9, 10. Liquor-dealers will be held accountable for the wretchedness and misery brought into the homes of those who are weak in moral power, and who fall through temptation to drink. They will be charged with the misery, the suffering, the hopelessness brought into the world through the liquor traffic. They will have to answer for the want and woe of the mothers and children who have suffered for food, and clothing, and shelter, who have buried all hope and joy. He who has a care for the sparrow, and notes its fall to the ground, who "clothes the grass of the field, which today is, and tomorrow is cast into the oven," will not pass by those who have been formed in his own image, purchased with his own blood, and pay no heed to their suffering cries. God marks this wickedness that perpetuates misery and crime. He charges it all up to those whose influence helps to open the door of temptation to the soul. {PH132 2.1}

There are men who have accepted high positions of trust, who have placed themselves under solemn vows to work for the good of the people, but who are untrue to these vows, who are not acting the part of their brother's keeper. They are violating the principles of God's law, and failing to love their neighbour as themselves. Law-makers are permitting breweries to be
planted all over the land, thus defiling the earth, and supplying to public houses that which they know to be a deadly evil. Drinking houses are scattered all over the cities and towns, inviting the traveller to stop and water his horses at the troughs, which are so convenient, and also to come in, and spend his money for a glass of some intoxicating drink. The water in the trough is a blessing to the thirsty horses, but what a curse is the liquor to the man who enters and drinks. The traveller enters the public house with his reason, with ability to walk upright; but look at him as he leaves. The lustre is gone from his eye. The power to walk upright is gone; he reels to and fro like a ship at sea. His reasoning power is paralysed; the image of God is destroyed. The poisonous, maddening draught has left a brand upon him so evil that nature rebels, and refuses to own him. He is the slave of depraved appetite, and instead of coming to his help, to break every yoke, and to let the oppressed go free, his brethren bind him the tighter in his chains. They rob his wife and children of his money, and take away from them a kind and sensible husband and father, by dealing out to him a potion that makes him a madman. He is in slavery, body and soul, and he cannot distinguish between right and wrong. The liquor-dealer has put the bottle to his neighbour's lips, and under its influence he is full of cruelty and murder, and in his madness actually commits murder. {PH132 2.2}

He is brought before an earthly tribunal, and those who legalized the traffic are forced to deal with the results of their own work. They authorised by law the giving to this man of a draught that would turn him
from a sane man into a madman, and now it is necessary for them to send him to prison and to the gallows for his crime. His wife and children are left in destitution and poverty, to become the charge of the community in which they live. Soul and body the man is lost, cut off from earth, and with no title to heaven. {PH132 3.1}

But there is a higher tribunal than that of earth, and in that tribunal the effect is traced to the cause, and the man who put the bottle to his neighbour's lips is charged with the sins of him who committed murder through the influence of the draught that robbed him of his reason. {PH132 4.1}

And are not the rulers of the land largely responsible for the aggravated crimes, the current of deadly evil, that is the result of this liquor traffic? Is it not their duty and in their power to remove this evil?--Yes, it is; and unless they do it, the blood of souls will be found upon their garments. {PH132 4.2}

When a ship is wrecked in sight of the shore, and the people look on, powerless to save, they are shocked and pained beyond measure. They talk of every possible means whereby to save those who are perishing; and even after the ship has gone down, and the lives of all are lost, they still try to think of some means that might have been successful in saving the perishing. But there is a deadly evil in our very land, which is sanctioned by law. Day after day, month after month, year after year, Satan's death-traps are set in our communities, at our doors, at the street corners, everywhere that it is possible to catch souls, that their moral power may be destroyed, and the image of God obliterated, and that they may be sunken in degradation far below the level of the brute. Souls are imperilled and perishing, and where is the active energy, the determined effort on the part of Christians to raise a warning signal, to enlighten their fellow-men, to save their perishing brothers? We are not talking of methods to save those who are dead and lost, but we desire to move upon those who are not yet beyond the reach of sympathy and help. We would present to these souls, who are guilty and polluted, the truth that the blood of Jesus Christ cleanseth from all sin. {PH132 4.3}

Shall souls always have to struggle for the victory, with the dens of temptation open before their very faces? Shall Satan always find agents to tempt those who are weak in moral power? Drawn into these dens of evil, shall he who has resolved to quit drink, be led to seize the glass again, and in the first sip of the intoxicant, put to his lips by the liquor-dealer, find every good resolution overpowered and gone? One taste of the maddening draught, and all thought of the suffering, heart-crushed wife has vanished. The debauched father cares no more that his children are hungry and naked. The law, by legalizing the liquor traffic, gives its sanction to the downfall of the soul, and refuses to stop the traffic that floods the land with evil. Let law-makers consider whether or not all this imperilling of human life, of physical power and mental vigour, is unavoidable. {PH132 5.1}

How many frightful accidents occur through the influence of drink. Some one at an important post fails to give the right signal, or sends an incorrect message, and on come the trains. There is a collision, and hundreds of lives are lost. When the matter is investigated, it is found that the man at the post was drunk.

A steamer at sea meets with disaster, and when the matter is traced to its source, it is found that the engineer was drunk, or that the captain had taken too much liquor at supper. What is the portion of this terrible intoxicant that any man in responsible position can afford to take, and be safe with the lives of human beings? He can be safe only as he totally abstains from drink. He should not have his mind confused with drink. No intoxicant should pass the lips; then if disaster comes, men in responsible places can do their best, and meet their record with satisfaction, whatever may be the issue. {PH132 5.2}

SoldierOfTheKing

23rd January 2008, 02:05 AM

NightEternal

23rd January 2008, 03:45 AM

reddogs

24th January 2008, 11:15 AM

Is the liquor seller really responsible for the harm that results from his customers drinking too much? Is the grocer responsible for the damage to his customers' health from eating too much? Is the auto dealer responsible for the mayhem on the roads that results from his customers driving too fast?

The thread was more on the "harm caused to those who sold the 'spirits' ", not on those who choose to stir not shake their martini's.....:)

Jimlarmore

24th January 2008, 12:52 PM

Is the liquor seller really responsible for the harm that results from his customers drinking too much? Is the grocer responsible for the damage to his customers' health from eating too much? Is the auto dealer responsible for the mayhem on the roads that results from his customers driving too fast?

Alcohol is a drug, plain and simple. It fits all of the criteria of a drug. So you need to ask this question. Is the drug dealer responsible for the ruined lives of those he sells his drugs too?

God Bless
Jim Larmore

Jimlarmore

24th January 2008, 12:54 PM

Yeah right. :|

Damned to Hell be him who partakes of that glass of wine while unborn children are being murdered in some of our our Adventist hospitals. Talk about misplaced outrage.

We got our priorities reeeeeeal straight, don't we?

http://farm1.static.flickr.com/53/107161419_4a08fe88e7.jpg?v=0

http://www.lartl.org/4952c240.jpg

I cannot nor will I ever condone why abortions are allowed to go on in our hospitals. This is a insanity in my opinion. However, that does not make the stand the church has taken against alcohol wrong. Priorities misplaced? Absolutely, wrong message on alcohol? Absoutely not!!!

God Bless
Jim Larmore

SoldierOfTheKing

24th January 2008, 05:19 PM

Alcohol is a drug, plain and simple.

It can certainly be used as one. A butcher knife can easily be used as weapon, but it is not a weapon in itself. It is the way that it is used that makes it that way.

"The dipsomaniac and the abstainer are not only both mistaken, but they both make the same mistake. They both regard wine as a drug and not as a drink."
G.K. Chesterton

djconklin

25th January 2008, 02:50 PM

The prinicple was answered back in 1873 by a non-SDA:

Dr. Robert Boyd, The World's Hope, or Rock of Ages (1873, 1880 printing): 674

"Whenever I hear professing Christians beginning to inquire what harm there can be in the social dance, or what harm there can be in the theatre, or in games of chance, I always know that it is a sign that the love of Christ is declining in their hearts, if indeed it ever existed at all. It is an attempt to get something to satisfy conscience, and is virtually declaring that the bread of life with which Christ feeds the soul does not sat-

675

isfy, and that therefore they are anxious to find some excuse forgetting back to the service of Satan. And, instead of arguing the rightness or the wrongness of those things of which no truly spiritual mind has any doubt, I would say, Take heed, my brother, to your own heart. Your Lord has warned you, not only against going back, but against even looking back; and you are instructed not to seem to come short. You are to shun the very appearance of evil, and the very fact that you are beginning to glance with approval at the abounding iniquity of the world, shows that your love to the Redeemer is "waxing cold." Take that cold heart again to Jesus; and rest not satisfied till it is brimming over with his love, "who was holy, harmless, and separated from sinners."

When Christ was on the cross suffering unimaginable agony that certainly would have been the time to take a drink--and yet He set an example for us by refusing.

JonMiller

25th January 2008, 03:22 PM

I know a lot of good that can be in the theatre.

JM

SoldierOfTheKing

26th January 2008, 03:22 AM

Is this going to turn into a thread about the theatre, or dancing?

JonMiller

26th January 2008, 03:23 AM

Doesn't need to...

A lot of good can come from drugs.

JM

Windmill

26th January 2008, 06:09 AM

Liqour, while I don't think is technically a sin, is something I think everyone should try and abstain from.

Its is a poison, but not only this, a mind altering one. Having alcohol in a society leads to people getting drunk, it is only inevitable, and that leads to crimes, abuse, deaths, injuries, fornification and fights.

Its just not good news. Abstain from it and lead a good example to others!

JonMiller

26th January 2008, 03:58 PM

reddogs

29th January 2008, 11:57 AM

Like marijuanna, some people claim it does them good and others they know it harms them yet they continue smoking......

The Weak and the Strong

1Accept him whose faith is weak, without passing judgment on disputable matters. 2One man's faith allows him to eat everything, but another man, whose faith is weak, eats only vegetables. 3The man who eats everything must not look down on him who does not, and the man who does not eat everything must not condemn the man who does, for God has accepted him. 4Who are you to judge someone else's servant? To his own master he stands or falls. And he will stand, for the Lord is able to make him stand.

5One man considers one day more sacred than another; another man considers every day alike. Each one should be fully convinced in his own mind. 6He who regards one day as special, does so to the Lord. He who eats meat, eats to the Lord, for he gives thanks to God; and he who abstains, does so to the Lord and gives thanks to God. 7For none of us lives to himself alone and none of us dies to himself alone. 8If we live, we live to the Lord; and if we die, we die to the Lord. So, whether we live or die, we belong to the Lord.
9For this very reason, Christ died and returned to life so that he might be the Lord of both the dead and the living. 10You, then, why do you judge your brother? Or why do you look down on your brother? For we will all stand before God's judgment seat. 11It is written:
" 'As surely as I live,' says the Lord,
'every knee will bow before me;
every tongue will confess to God.' "[a (http://www.biblegateway.com/passage/?search=Romans%2014%20;&version=31;#fen-NIV-28277a)] 12So then, each of us will give an account of himself to God.
13Therefore let us stop passing judgment on one another. Instead, make up your mind not to put any stumbling block or obstacle in your brother's way. 14As one who is in the Lord Jesus, I am fully convinced that no food[b (http://www.biblegateway.com/passage/?search=Romans%2014%20;&version=31;#fen-NIV-28280b)] is unclean in itself. But if anyone regards something as unclean, then for him it is unclean. 15If your brother is distressed because of what you eat, you are no longer acting in love. Do not by your eating destroy your brother for whom Christ died. 16Do not allow what you consider good to be spoken of as evil. 17For the kingdom of God is not a matter of eating and drinking, but of righteousness, peace and joy in the Holy Spirit, 18because anyone who serves Christ in this way is pleasing to God and approved by men.
19Let us therefore make every effort to do what leads to peace and to mutual edification. 20Do not destroy the work of God for the sake of food. All food is clean, but it is wrong for a man to eat anything that causes someone else to stumble. 21It is better not to eat meat or drink wine or to do anything else that will cause your brother to fall. 22So whatever you believe about these things keep between yourself and God. Blessed is the man who does not condemn himself by what he approves. 23But the man who has doubts is condemned if he eats, because his eating is not from faith; and everything that does not come from faith is sin.

ricker

29th January 2008, 01:14 PM

Alcohol is a drug, plain and simple. It fits all of the criteria of a drug. So you need to ask this question. Is the drug dealer responsible for the ruined lives of those he sells his drugs too?

God Bless
Jim Larmore

One of my teenage sons just got back less than two weeks ago from being "locked up" for over a year in drug and alcohol treatment centers, etc. Friday night he got drunk and rolled his car, totaling it, and got a DWI. I don't condemn those selling or using alcohol occasionally, But for goodness sake, think twice about starting drinking if you don't now. You're playing with fire.
God bless! Ricker

JonMiller

29th January 2008, 01:15 PM

I highly recommend that people don't drink/use drugs until they are an adult. It seems that the vast majority of people who have issues with alcohol or other drugs started using those drugs before age 20.

JM

thecountrydoc

29th January 2008, 03:11 PM

Hello to all who have posted to, or read, this thread.

I was ask on another site if drinking was a sin. The following is my response to that question.
_________________________________________________________________
IS DRINKING A SIN?

I will first make two comments concerning the question; First, everytime someone consumed alcohol in the Bible there were most unfortunate problems that followed. Second, If God used a different standard for different people then Satan's accusations that God is unfair would be true.
_________________________________________________________________
BOY, O' BOY, O' BOY,

This thread has covered quite a spread of ideas, opinions, statements, medical advice, bibical text and thier interpititations, indications of studying bibical history and even bibical language translation! It has even been suggested that what may be wrong for some may be OK for others! WOW!!!

At the risk of offending anyone who has posted here I must say that "there is somthing wrong with this picture"!!

Before addressing the topic at hand let me say that I do not intend to address each thought, belife, interpitation or pratice mentioned nor will I give additional bibical text. Rather I'm going to share some ways that each can evaluate there own position and arrive at thier own conclusions.

Too often, when there seems to be instruction on any topic that is not spelled out step by step, Christians forget the statment given, "study to show thyself approved". To study for ourselves means not only to read the Word but to use a very important God given ability to help us apply the instruction given. It is the ability to use logic. When study of the Word is used with logic, reason, and some current facts, each should be able to draw correct conclusions about any subject not just the topic of this thread.

In understanding the instruction given on this topic, drinking, we first need to use some current facts followed by some bibical "facts". With said facts in hand we can use logic about God's fairness, truthfulness, and the principals that should be used when applying all of the instructions given on any subject or topic. I might also suggest that the further study of bibical history as well as secular history may prove to be of futher help in understang actual practices and langueges as well as the total concepts and meanings of each text given previously.

Current secular/medical facts:

Alcohol impairs brain function. Alcohol impairs our ability to use logic and reason. According to current studies the consumption of even a single alcoholic beverage is enough to produce measureable brain impairment. More people are killed on our highways due to alcohol related accidents than all other traffic accidents combined. The number of homicides commited while under the influence are more than double those commited when there is no alcohol involved. The vast majority of all child abuse and spouseal abuse involves alcohol. "No", not one, single addiction can be started without a "first time" action.(ie. taking a first drink) A book could be written about the social, moral, and medical reasons for not using alcoholic beverages of any kind therefore I will stop here.

Bibical and Christian facts and principals:

God gave man a brain. There are two main functions intended for the use of that brain. The first use of our brain, the mind, is to communicate with our creator. ANY impairment of our brain power impairs our ability to comunicate with our Creator.

With our brain man was given the the power of choice. To make "good" choices we need to use logic and reason which is what puts..." man above the animals" and why God gave man dominion over all of His creation. God has never given anything that of itself is addicting to His children. He has never blessed anything that is self addictive. In todays Christian world any addiction is considered a sin. Anything {action} that may produce sinful behavior is not of God but is of Satan. God does not cause or condone sin. Any addictive behavior will produce sin. By studying the true charector and nature of God we, as Christians, can establish that God is fair and does not use different standards for different people. He is truthful. Close study does not find contardiction in all the Bible. What God gives He never takes away. His Word is truth.

The knowledge of the above "facts" and principals, coupled with a complete faith/dependancy in/on God the Father, gave Jesus Christ the ability to live a perfect life while here on earth. His every thought, action, statement or question was based in logic and reason.

So I now ask each poster to this thread as Christians to follow the example of Jesus Christ and draw your own conclusions and answers to the question. IS DRINKING A SIN?
_________________________________________________________________

Respectfuly, your brother in Christ,
Doc

JonMiller

29th January 2008, 04:00 PM

You have an awful lot of assumptions there.

JM

thecountrydoc

29th January 2008, 04:13 PM

Asumptions? Assumptions?

JonMiller

29th January 2008, 04:38 PM

thecountrydoc

29th January 2008, 09:53 PM

Jon,

You said:"You know that potatoes can be addictive? Does that mean that they are sinful for all to eat?"
If we were face to face I would say; READ MY LIPS!

Please note one sentence from my last post;
"God has never given anything that of itself is addicting to His children."
There are three things you seem to have ignored.

First, there are many addictions that are not caused by observed actions, such as eating potatos, but are a part of a larger problem, such as food addiction.

Second; God did not give mankind alcohol. Man perverted the gifts that God had given to him in order to make alcohol. Ergo; Potatoes, in and of themselves, are not addictive. Alcohol, in and of itself, is addictive. Made by man not by God.

Third, from your last statement in your last post:"If someone is addicted to alcohol, by all means, they should never drink the stuff." This statement is by itself true. However in the context of clinical addition, a person will never become addicted to potatoes by themselves. Ergo; The need to tell someone to stay away from potateos exclusively will not prevent or cure an addiction. Therefore the eating of potatoes in and of itself is not a sin.

Excluding biblical principals, clinical facts alone are enough to give good reason not to consume alcohol.

Assumptions you say?

Respectfully,
Doc

Avonia

29th January 2008, 11:17 PM

Jon,

You said:
If we were face to face I would say; READ MY LIPS!

I find your voice is this post disappointing.

thecountrydoc

30th January 2008, 04:30 AM

Hi Avonia,

I'm sorry I disapointed you. There are times however when a person is challenged over statements that have been made that are irrefuteable by either scientific fact or logic. It is at those times, after continued response, that I occasionally feel the need to state the facts with the utmost emphasis. That is what I have done here. I did not attack the poster, but the statements made. The words used seemed to be necessary to gain the attention of the poster on a subject that is of great importance in the Christian's life. It is my prayer that all who read this thread will understand that the use of alcohol as an addictive/potentialy addictive substasnce, eventhough they may not be addicted to it, does in fact impare the ability to function in the way mankind was intended to function, including the ability to communicate with their Creator, and as such has no place in a Christian's life.

I also pray that you understand what I have written here.

Respectfully, your brother in Christ,
Doc

reddogs

31st January 2008, 09:37 AM

Drinking is all fun and games right....

http://www.naplesnews.com/news/2008/jan/29/great-student-athlete-remembered-naples-today/

"...Szwed, a senior at Florida Southern College, from Naples, was found dead in his apartment on East Belmar Street after a fraternity “Bid Day” Saturday night, and Lakeland police said an autopsy concluded he died of a lacerated spleen.
According to a Lakeland police report, witnesses say Szwed, who was a member of the Sigma Chi fraternity, had been drinking alcohol Friday night and Saturday morning and took a “hard fall” while participating in his fraternity’s “Slip ‘n Slide” event...."

JonMiller

31st January 2008, 12:10 PM

Jon,

You said:
If we were face to face I would say; READ MY LIPS!

Please note one sentence from my last post;

There are three things you seem to have ignored.

First, there are many addictions that are not caused by observed actions, such as eating potatos, but are a part of a larger problem, such as food addiction.

No, recent research/reading says that some people find potatoes addicting (chemically) the same as many people find nicotine addictining. This is actually a large part of the problem for some disorders in children (relating to behavior disorders also).

There are a number of places where to treat children with issues, instead of loading them with chemicals, they are taking them off things like milk or potatoes or whatever 'normal' food they are addicted (chemically!) to.

JM

reddogs

31st January 2008, 03:08 PM

A little late night partying never hurt anybody, right....?

http://[wash my mouth][wash my mouth][wash my mouth].yahoo.com/spears-taken-from-home-in-ambulance/news/6110

http://www.people.com/people/article/0,,20175103,00.html?xid=rss-fullcontentcnn&iref=werecommend

http://www.cnn.com/2008/SHOWBIZ/Music/01/31/britney.spears/index.html

JonMiller

31st January 2008, 03:25 PM

There is a difference between partying and having a drink or two with freinds or after/during a meal.

JM

thecountrydoc

31st January 2008, 03:44 PM

Jon you said:
No, recent research/reading says that some people find potatoes addicting (chemically) the same as many people find nicotine addictining. This is actually a large part of the problem for some disorders in children (relating to behavior disorders also).

There are a number of places where to treat children with issues, instead of loading them with chemicals, they are taking them off things like milk or potatoes or whatever 'normal' food they are addicted (chemically!) to.From this statement it would seem that you are confused as to the difference in deffinition between the words ADDICTIVE and ALLERGIC. There are many people who have food allergies, but they are not addicted to the foods.

Food addiction on the otherhand is the result of other problems not the foods themselves.

Respectfully,
Doc

JonMiller

31st January 2008, 04:01 PM

Jimlarmore

31st January 2008, 04:10 PM

No, they are addictive, to those people.

I beleive that there are people who don't find things like marijuana at all addictive. Addiction can be said to be the result of an allergy (a type of allergy), most people share one to nicotine.

JM

Jon,

Think about this, if you are living a life that is Christ filled do you think it would include sitting down and having a alcohol drink or two with friends or not? I certainly wouldn't myself. The Bible tells us that our bodies are the temple of the Holy Spirit. The throne of that temple is the human brain. The mind is adversely affected by the slightest amount of alcohol. Alcohol is an alkaloid capable of penetrating the blood brain barrier and it always kills brain cells. Is this something a practicing Christian would do?

God Bless
Jim Larmore

JonMiller

31st January 2008, 04:23 PM

A lot of things effect us in the slightest ammount. Swimming for example, or being at a gas-station. (or even being constipated)

Drinking a drink (if you have sufficient body mass) probably kills less braincells then many other 'fine' activities.

Life on this earth can't exist by getting rid of all possible adversely effecting things. Those who delude themselves into thinking that they are succeeding aren't helping the situation at all.

I agree, somethings are so adverse that they should be left completely alone. I put many drugs into that category. But as long as we allow alcohol (legally), and as long as it doesn't effect me majorly.. nor the people who I am an example to (pretty much no one).. then there is no more harm in it then in anything else.

JM

RND

31st January 2008, 04:29 PM

But as long as we allow alcohol (legally), and as long as it doesn't effect me majorly.. nor the people who I am an example to (pretty much no one).. then there is no more harm in it then in anything else.

JM

Jon,

It has been shown in numerous studies that alcohol consumption leads to everything from higher crime rates to increased health risks. All of which effect you and your bottom line through increased taxation by government to combat the effects of vice.

Whether you know it or not the effects of alcohol comsumption negetively effect the whole of society.

JonMiller

31st January 2008, 04:35 PM

Jon,

It has been shown in numerous studies that alcohol consumption leads to everything from higher crime rates to increased health risks. All of which effect you and your bottom line through increased taxation by government to combat the effects of vice.

Whether you know it or not the effects of alcohol comsumption negetively effect the whole of society.

Oh, I would be happy to vote for prohibation.

I just don't see anything wrong with my 'current' drinking habits. I do see things wrong with my drinking habits of a couple years ago and many other peoples drinking habits and do feel that alcohol is a huge net negative for socieity.

I just don't feel that because something is sometimes used for sinful purposes, means that it is sinful in and of itself. If I felt that by my example I was causing people problems with alcohol I would quit.

I actually would prefer another discussion here (about music or jewelery or something) versus the alcohol one, as I don't want to start people drinking (as some have problems with it). However, I am replying to this because of the false adventist mentality of calling things sinful which aren't.

I don't think that guns are inherently sinful and shouldn't be used, I don't think that knives are sinful and inherently shouldn't be used, I don't think that cars are sinful and inherently shouldn't be used.... all these things kill many people and cause many problems.

JM

RND

31st January 2008, 04:39 PM

Are you suggesting that until there is prohibition again you won't stop drinking?

I see where several states have laws against murder. I wonder if that has worked in eliminating it.

JonMiller

31st January 2008, 04:42 PM

Are you suggesting that until there is prohibition again you won't stop drinking?

I see where several states have laws against murder. I wonder if that has worked in eliminating it.

No, I would stop drinking.

We saw previously that prohibition didn't work. The culture has to change first...

In fact, with our current culture I think that a lot more drugs should become legal (marijuana for one).

JM

Jimlarmore

31st January 2008, 04:49 PM

No, I would stop drinking.

We saw previously that prohibition didn't work. The culture has to change first...

In fact, with our current culture I think that a lot more drugs should become legal (marijuana for one).

JM

Marijuana use and possession is illegal in nearly all states. I find it interesting that you would stop drinking if a man made law was inacted to make drinking alcohol illegal but since the Bible does everything but make it a commandment you feel it's ok. Do you think you are going to consume alcohol in heaven? If not why do it here where we are preparing for heaven?

God Bless
Jim Larmore

RND

31st January 2008, 04:55 PM

No, I would stop drinking.

We saw previously that prohibition didn't work. The culture has to change first...

In fact, with our current culture I think that a lot more drugs should become legal (marijuana for one).

JM

I think what I'm asking you is can you stop drinking without any outside influence other than God's? The way you answered the previous question is that you seemed to suggest that you would stop drinking when and if there was prohibition again, which you would vote for.

RND

31st January 2008, 04:56 PM

Marijuana use and possession is illegal in nearly all states. I find it interesting that you would stop drinking if a man made law was inacted to make drinking alcohol illegal but since the Bible does everything but make it a commandment you feel it's ok. Do you think you are going to consume alcohol in heaven? If not why do it here where we are preparing for heaven?

God Bless
Jim Larmore

Kinda the point I wanted to get across. GP, Jim.

JonMiller

31st January 2008, 05:29 PM

I think what I'm asking you is can you stop drinking without any outside influence other than God's? The way you answered the previous question is that you seemed to suggest that you would stop drinking when and if there was prohibition again, which you would vote for.

I quit drinking a while ago. As long as I don't have too much, alcohol is not a problem for me. I didn't drink for like 4 months.

I am very good at not having too much if I keep it under 4. Somewhere between 4 and 8 I start to want to drink a lot more... I have mostly kept under 4 in the past two years. I have kept under 12 in the last two years, and only got up to 8 a couple of times (generally I am not drunk until 8-12).

While the last two months I have had ~10 drinks during the month, in most previous months I had only ~4 drinks (during the entire month).

I would quit drinking again if a girlfreind/etc asked me to, and wouldn't have any alcohol around the house if I had children there.

JM

JonMiller

31st January 2008, 05:35 PM

SoldierOfTheKing

31st January 2008, 05:57 PM

Do you think you are going to consume alcohol in heaven?

"And in this mountain shall the LORD of hosts make unto all people a feast of fat things, a feast of wines on the lees, of fat things full of marrow, of wines on the lees well refined. And he will destroy in this mountain the face of the covering cast over all people, and the vail that is spread over all nations. He will swallow up death in victory; and the Lord GOD will wipe away tears from off all faces; and the rebuke of his people shall he take away from off all the earth; for the LORD hath spoken it." Isaiah 25:6-8

"But I say unto you, I will not drink henceforth of this fruit of the vine, until that day when I drink it new with you in my Father's kingdom."
Matthew 26:29

thecountrydoc

31st January 2008, 06:35 PM

Jon you said:
"No, they are addictive, to those people.

I beleive that there are people who don't find things like marijuana at all addictive. Addiction can be said to be the result of an allergy (a type of allergy), most people share one to nicotine. Just like most people share one to bee stings."Jon, when you have finished med school, and completed both your internship and residency, I may be willing to continue this debate.

Respectfully,
Doc

RND

31st January 2008, 07:47 PM

"And in this mountain shall the LORD of hosts make unto all people a feast of fat things, a feast of wines on the lees, of fat things full of marrow, of wines on the lees well refined. And he will destroy in this mountain the face of the covering cast over all people, and the vail that is spread over all nations. He will swallow up death in victory; and the Lord GOD will wipe away tears from off all faces; and the rebuke of his people shall he take away from off all the earth; for the LORD hath spoken it." Isaiah 25:6-8

"But I say unto you, I will not drink henceforth of this fruit of the vine, until that day when I drink it new with you in my Father's kingdom."
Matthew 26:29

New wine. Non-alcoholic. Non-fermented. Hence the "new" designation.

"Freshly squeezed grape juice."

reddogs

31st March 2008, 02:27 PM

New wine. Non-alcoholic. Non-fermented. Hence the "new" designation.

"Freshly squeezed grape juice."

How long can 'fresh squeezed' stay good, anybody know?

JonMiller

31st March 2008, 05:34 PM

Jon you said:Jon, when you have finished med school, and completed both your internship and residency, I may be willing to continue this debate.

Respectfully,
Doc

Oh, I had forgotten about this post. There is a lot of research that has been done on the subject, I will see if I can find some to respond with today.

Jon Miller

Dania

31st March 2008, 05:40 PM

didnt Jesus drink wine??
i hear ppl say that the wine being mentioned refers to grape juice.. if so how then can drunkeness be spoken about...?

this is one prob i have with SDA... not that drinking isnt bad for you.. but they created a DRINKING IS A SIN rule and just kind of make things more complicated for ppl..
the next step for them to take is EATING MEAT IS A SIN.. just like how they say EATING UNCLEAN MEAT IS A SIN...
(i know ppl are going to mention that it is said so in leviticus etc.. but isnt that the law of moses??? thats not the ten commandments.
then they may mention that it is unclean for the body etc.. but just how it is up to the individual to eat meat same so it should be optional and up to the individual to drink or eat pork etc on the basis that it harms the body and thats a sin) i am not defending it, i am vegetarian but its a genuine concern about the doctrine

i am totally confused when it comes to these doctrines.. there is so much good in the church but when i see these things i wonder..

just how it optional for one to eat meat same so it should be optional to eat unclean meat or drink.. based on the individuals. however it is evident that drukenness and gluttony are sins..

jesus changed water to grape juice?

SoldierOfTheKing

31st March 2008, 05:40 PM

How long can 'fresh squeezed' stay good, anybody know?

If you pasteurize it, put in a sterile container and keep it refrigerated, it'll be good for months. If you left it ferment, for years, even decades. Otherwise, it would probably be only a few days before the botulism spores multiply and render it undrinkable.

Go take a trip to your supermarket. The label on the grape juice will clearly say "Refrigerate After Opening". The wine will have no such instruction on its label, and it will already be at least two years old.

If you want to experiment further, pour a glass of wine and a glass of grape juice and leave them both on your kitchen table for a few days. You'll see which is pure and which isn't. :)

this is one prob i have with SDA... not that drinking isnt bad for you.. but they created a DRINKING IS A SIN rule and just kind of make things more complicated for ppl..
the next step for them to take is EATING MEAT IS A SIN.. just like how they say EATING UNCLEAN MEAT IS A SIN..

am totally confused when it comes to these doctrines.. there is so much good in the church but when i see these things i wonder..

just how it optional for one to eat meat same so it should be optional to eat unclean meat or drink.. based on the individuals. however it is evident that drukenness and gluttony are sins..

It's quite simple. Drinking isn't bad for you. Drinking too much is bad for you. Eating unclean meat, by definition, is prohibited by Scripture. Eating clean meat, by definition, is not, and neither is drinking.

honorthesabbath

31st March 2008, 06:29 PM

You know that potatoes can be addictive? Does that mean that they are sinful for all to eat?

This is but one of the assumptions you are making.

If someone is addicted to alcohol, by all means, they should never drink the stuff.

Jon Miller
Our family LOVE'S potatoes. And I guess that you could even say we are addicted to them as we have them about 2-3 times a week. At times we have even over-indulged in them at a meal.

But you know what? Never once did our over indulgence in potatoes result in us dancing around on a table top with a lamp shade on our heads.

Never once did over indulgence of potatoes results in tearing off our clothes and running around nakey!

Get the point now? http://smileys.smileycentral.com/cat/13/13_4_1v.gif (http://www.smileycentral.com/?partner=ZSzeb001_ZNfox000)

Dania

31st March 2008, 06:46 PM

If you pasteurize it, put in a sterile container and keep it refrigerated, it'll be good for months. If you left it ferment, for years, even decades. Otherwise, it would probably be only a few days before the botulism spores multiply and render it undrinkable.

Go take a trip to your supermarket. The label on the grape juice will clearly say "Refrigerate After Opening". The wine will have no such instruction on its label, and it will already be at least two years old.

If you want to experiment further, pour a glass of wine and a glass of grape juice and leave them both on your kitchen table for a few days. You'll see which is pure and which isn't. :)

It's quite simple. Drinking isn't bad for you. Drinking too much is bad for you. Eating unclean meat, by definition, is prohibited by Scripture. Eating clean meat, by definition, is not, and neither is drinking.
the bible says not to eat unclean meat in the LAW OF MOSES!!! that law was a shadow of the cross.. so since thats null.. the sacrifices and the ceremonies and all the UNCLEAN obsessions .. would u cut everything out and isolate the unclean meat rule?? if so why X out the rest. if one is used all should be used.. thats what i think... dont eat unclean meat!? CURCUMCISE then

Dania

31st March 2008, 06:47 PM

i am just requesting answers still.. i am not hating... if there is proof show me... i am vegetarian so.. dont get it twisted

SoldierOfTheKing

31st March 2008, 08:24 PM

would u cut everything out and isolate the unclean meat rule??

No

the bible says not to eat unclean meat in the LAW OF MOSES!!! that law was a shadow of the cross..

No, that Law is (present tense) a shadow of the Kingdom of God.

"Which are a shadow of things to come; but the body is of Christ."
Col. 2:17

This was written after the cross, so "things to come" cannot refer to the cross.

Dania

31st March 2008, 09:50 PM

No

No, that Law is (present tense) a shadow of the Kingdom of God.

"Which are a shadow of things to come; but the body is of Christ."
Col. 2:17

This was written after the cross, so "things to come" cannot refer to the cross.
PLEASE EXPAND ON THAT I DONT GET IT..

TrustAndObey

1st April 2008, 06:14 PM

No, that Law is (present tense) a shadow of the Kingdom of God.

"Which are a shadow of things to come; but the body is of Christ."
Col. 2:17

This was written after the cross, so "things to come" cannot refer to the cross.

This is a very good point.

How long after the cross was Colossians written? I think my Bible tells the estimated dates of each book but I'm hoping someone knows off-hand.

SoldierOfTheKing

1st April 2008, 10:49 PM

I think TrustAndObey got it. Col. 2:17 is the verse usually cited to argue that the Law foreshadowed the cross. It is said the Law "was a shadow of what was to come". Thing is though, it doesn't say that. It says the Law is a shadow of what is to come. Whatever the date of that epistle, it was written to the New Testament church.

reddogs

3rd April 2008, 06:25 PM

If you pasteurize it, put in a sterile container and keep it refrigerated, it'll be good for months. If you left it ferment, for years, even decades. Otherwise, it would probably be only a few days before the botulism spores multiply and render it undrinkable.

Go take a trip to your supermarket. The label on the grape juice will clearly say "Refrigerate After Opening". The wine will have no such instruction on its label, and it will already be at least two years old.

If you want to experiment further, pour a glass of wine and a glass of grape juice and leave them both on your kitchen table for a few days. You'll see which is pure and which isn't. :)

It's quite simple. Drinking isn't bad for you. Drinking too much is bad for you. Eating unclean meat, by definition, is prohibited by Scripture. Eating clean meat, by definition, is not, and neither is drinking.

Well the problem is who is going to decide if you are drunk or not, the 'drunk'.....?:o

SoldierOfTheKing

3rd April 2008, 09:57 PM

Who decides if you've eaten too much at a Sabbath potluck?

reddogs

4th April 2008, 11:52 AM

Who decides if you've eaten too much at a Sabbath potluck?

Well last time I checked it wasnt the 'drunk'.....:)

Paul101

8th April 2008, 06:46 PM

TrustAndObey

8th April 2008, 06:52 PM

Paul, in the two posts of yours I've seen here I know more about you than half the people on here that I've been chatting with for YEARS.

LOL!

(Welcome by the way)!

honorthesabbath

8th April 2008, 07:43 PM

How long can 'fresh squeezed' stay good, anybody know?

Do you mean before the mold begins to grow on it? lol Depends on conditions.

Yelsemnos

8th April 2008, 07:49 PM

Psalm 104
14 (http://bible.cc/psalms/104-14.htm) He causes the grass to grow for the cattle,
And vegetation for the labor of man,
So that he may bring forth food from the earth,
15 (http://bible.cc/psalms/104-15.htm) And wine which makes man’s heart glad,
So that he may make his face glisten with oil,
And food which sustains man’s heart.

I used to think drinking with any intoxication whatsoever was bad. But the buzzed feeling is really good. And there is biblical evidence to support that such indulgence is not a sin. Sure you could make it one, but you can do the same thing with food.

honorthesabbath

8th April 2008, 08:04 PM

Well ive been Drinking for the last 40 Years; I see no harm in it at all [Im NOT A SDA Member], for me its a social thing, Through Pubs I get Work [Im a Builder]
meet people and, whats that new Term..... "Network"
I DONT Drink at home, like whats the point ?.

Going back to scripture, of course it was NOT Grape Juice; but proper wine, This "Grape Juice" is a pure SDA Invention by SDAs to cover the MUST Not Drink Ban.

I Think Paul [NO Not ME !] said "Moderation in all things"
I think thats as true now, as way back then.

When Paul said all things in moderation, he was talking about the permitted things. Let's think this through. We HAVE to eat to live, but we are admonished not to over eat. We are also admonished to not eat those things that are harmful to our bodies since we are to present them 'living sacrifices, holy, unto the Lord".

So let me ask you, how much cocaine would the Lord permit His children to snort up their noses? How much would be moderate?

How many people can we kill in moderation? Adulterous relationships? How many ? Can I have 2 or 3 pagan god statues in my house to bow down to? Would 5 be to many?

Also Paul, think about this. When we have ZERO alcohol in us, we are considered 'sober'. But just one ounce in us, and we are in the beginning stages of drunkeness. Alcohol is listed in the same category as narcotics. Both are mind altering substances and both are killers.

Jesus created us in purity and holiness, drugs (including alcohol) are satans invention to ruin man's minds and lives.

thecountrydoc

8th April 2008, 08:39 PM

Sophia7

9th April 2008, 12:29 AM

Glad you stopped by Paul and I hope this will be only the first of many stops.

The debate that is being carried on here is one that I don't need the Bible to support my position. My personal position on this subject can be supported with nothing but clinical evidence.

Respectfully, your brother in Christ,
Doc

Doc, for once I kind of agree with you. I think that it would be much better to argue your position on this from a clinical perspective than from a biblical perspective.

djconklin

9th April 2008, 07:19 PM

On the Oprah show they pointed out that even one glass of wine affects one's decision-making skills.

When Christ could have used a drink the most (according to some people) He refused it.

SoldierOfTheKing

9th April 2008, 09:49 PM

When Paul said all things in moderation, he was talking about the permitted things.

Alcoholic beverages fall into this category. The Scriptural evidence is overwhelming.

So let me ask you, how much cocaine would the Lord permit His children to snort up their noses? How much would be moderate?

Also Paul, think about this. When we have ZERO alcohol in us, we are considered 'sober'. But just one ounce in us, and we are in the beginning stages of drunkeness. Alcohol is listed in the same category as narcotics. Both are mind altering substances and both are killers.

See post #7

How many people can we kill in moderation? Adulterous relationships? How many ? Can I have 2 or 3 pagan god statues in my house to bow down to? Would 5 be to many?

Again, these are things that are forbidden by scripture, in fact clear violations of the Ten Commandments, so I don't see how the comparison is valid.

Jesus created us in purity and holiness, drugs (including alcohol) are satans invention to ruin man's minds and lives.

It's not the substances that are evil, it's the way they are used that makes them that way.

The debate that is being carried on here is one that I don't need the Bible to support my position. My personal position on this subject can be supported with nothing but clinical evidence.

I'm sure you can, doc, but not being a physician myself, it would be a bit beyond what I can really discuss. From what I understand, the prevailing view in the medical community today is that for most people, drinking in moderation is healthier than abstinence. Of course, as recently as 20 years ago, the commonly accepted view was quite different, and it way well change again in the future as more research is done.

What I do know is that God created our bodies, so He would know what was good for them. If wine in any quantity was harmful to us, He would not have sanctioned it use in Scripture.

djconklin

10th April 2008, 01:42 PM

Psalm 104
14 (http://bible.cc/psalms/104-14.htm) He causes the grass to grow for the cattle,
And vegetation for the labor of man,
So that he may bring forth food from the earth,
15 (http://bible.cc/psalms/104-15.htm) And wine which makes man’s heart glad,
So that he may make his face glisten with oil,
And food which sustains man’s heart.

The SDA commentary refers one to Deut. 14:26 and has an excellant discussion of the issue there.

JonMiller

10th April 2008, 01:56 PM

On the Oprah show they pointed out that even one glass of wine affects one's decision-making skills.

When Christ could have used a drink the most (according to some people) He refused it.

It depends on your tolerance, body mass, and what other food you have intaked recently, as well as other factors.

Note that God definitely does as some people to abstain completely from alcohol (see examples in the OT).

I also can understand the viewpoint (stated by Billy Graham?) that while alcohol consumption isn't a sin in and of itself, that it is a stumbling block for so many that it is best to be an example and not imbibe at all. (paraphrase)

Currently I have a couple drinks a month. I would be willing to change my practice, but haven't yet seen a reason to do so. I did see a reason to change my pratice of getting drunk several times a week, and did so (and God definitely led me in that).

JM

djconklin

10th April 2008, 04:24 PM

The Bible is quite clear: "Wine is a mocker, strong drink (and this was a sugar drink, they didn't have stroing drink as we call it today till 500AD) is raging ..."

Different folks have different stumbling blocks. Since one of my uncles died of cirrhosis of the liver B4 his 43rd birthday I see no reason to kill any of my brain cells no matter how few might be killed from even a single sip. Christ didn't take it when He could have used the most so why should I take one period? Do I "need" to drink in order to be sociable? Or, to relax? Nope on either count.

catlover

3rd May 2008, 06:11 PM

Glad you stopped by Paul and I hope this will be only the first of many stops.

The debate that is being carried on here is one that I don't need the Bible to support my position. My personal position on this subject can be supported with nothing but clinical evidence.

Respectfully, your brother in Christ,
Doc

there really are no benefits to alcohol are there? It increases a woman's risk of breast cancer, the list can go on.

TrustAndObey

3rd May 2008, 06:30 PM

There's no nutritional value in alcohol. Some types have a little protein and carbs from the sugar but it's mostly empty calories and it destroys brain cells, even a very small amount does.

catlover

3rd May 2008, 06:37 PM

There's no nutritional value in alcohol. Some types have a little protein and carbs from the sugar but it's mostly empty calories and it destroys brain cells, even a very small amount does.

Yes, that is "wet brain" there is a certain nutrient required for the brain to function, and alcohol destroys that...

My life has been affected by alcoholism...one of my parents it's sad.

TrustAndObey

3rd May 2008, 06:40 PM

My uncle Bill was such a bad alcoholic that he had bruises all over his entire body from his liver shutting down. BLACK bruises that were very deep. He also had some esophageal bleeding, and that's what finally made him stop drinking.

He's an exception to the rule, but he did fully recover and has been a recovering alcoholic for almost 2 decades.

capnator

3rd May 2008, 08:53 PM

What are the fruits of drinking alcohol?

Mat 7:20 (http://cf.blueletterbible.org/Bible.cfm?b=Mat&c=7&v=20&t=KJV#20)Wherefore by their fruits ye shall know them.

Given the KNOWN effects that alcohol has on people and our communties how could the church argue for it?

Biblically one could use the same arguments for Marajuana use as is used to support alcohol usage, but for some reason this never happens.

The rationale is we can drink but not get drunk... what is drunk and how do you define it? I know from when I was drinking you pretty much could say to yourself that you weren't drunk until you were really drunk, from the inside looking out with a skinful of booze is a whole lot different from someone a sober person veiwing your actions.

For the average person Is 1 standard drink drunk? How about 2? 2.1... 2.2, 2.25 at what point do you cross into drunkeness, as soon as you take a sip it starts to effect you.
The Medical Effects of Alcohol

In the Immediate Term:

Immediately, alcohol makes you react slower, make less good decisions and impairs the ability to perform accurate tasks. In harsh conditions, you fare much less well; to drink when very hot or very cold is suicidal. It makes you less alert.3 (http://www.vexen.co.uk/self/alcohol.html#3) Alcohol makes you feel warm because it causes your capillaries to allow more blood to the surface of the skin; but this also increases the rate that you lose heat through your skin. You think you are warmer, but you are actually losing heat quicker. Alcohol simultaneously makes you more confident but less capable of acting and thinking. In the Short Term:

An Army publication, relying on expert medical data, finds that alcohol has the following effects: “
Interferes with fitness; heart and lungs work less efficiently
It damages muscles
It can lead to increased weight
It increases the risk of accidents and injuries
It damages the immune system, making you more prone to infection
It increases the time needed to recover from injuries and illnesses
It causes dehydration, making exercise dangerous and unpleasant
” "Alcohol And Drugs", British Army Publication [3] (http://www.vexen.co.uk/self/alcohol.html#3)

Even a moderate drinker gets ill more, has more accidents and is less fit. Certainly, no sportsman wants to be anything but a light drinker! In the Long Term:

Alcohol effects the brain in various ways, "but two effects seem most important": “First, alcohol kills nerve cells - but in a highly selective fashion. In the January 30, 1981 issue of Science, Charles Golden and his associates report that alcohol tends to destroy brain tissue primarily in the dominant hemisphere. The behavioural changes associated with chronic drunkenness tend to support Golden's findings. For example, the slurred speech, the inability to think logically and to plan effectively, and the emotional outbursts shown by many alcoholics all suggest that alcohol disrupts the dominance normally shown by the left hemisphere. Indeed, Golden and his colleagues believe these symptoms result from the right hemisphere's attempts to take over the functions lost through destruction of tissue in the left hemisphere.” "Understanding Human Behavior" by McConnel, James V, p79

Chronic liver disease. Deaths from cirrhosis have increased in the UK - by 900% from 1970 to 2000. The primary cause of cirrhosis is too much drink1 (http://www.vexen.co.uk/self/alcohol.html#1).
Early death5 (http://www.vexen.co.uk/self/alcohol.html#5).
Alcohol, Crime and Violence

"Almost half of all victims of violence report that perpetrators were under the influence."1 (http://www.vexen.co.uk/self/alcohol.html#1)
"The role of alcohol in combination with other drugs should not be ignored. Violence seems to be more closely linked with excessive intake of alcohol than with many illegal drugs [...] - though there is room to argue that this is a culturally mediated effect rather than a necessary effect of alcohol."2, p12 (http://www.vexen.co.uk/self/alcohol.html#2)
"In the Army 75% of violent offences are alcohol related. Time and resources are also wasted treating those who have injured themselves or made themselves ill through the misuse of alcohol"3 (http://www.vexen.co.uk/self/alcohol.html#3)
"Over 50% of men convicted of sexual assault and rape had been drinking prior to the attack. An equally high proportion of victims of rape had themselves been under the influence of alcohol at the time of the attack"3 (http://www.vexen.co.uk/self/alcohol.html#3)http://www.vexen.co.uk/self/alcohol.html

k4c

3rd May 2008, 09:31 PM

TrustAndObey

3rd May 2008, 09:35 PM

k4c

3rd May 2008, 09:44 PM

John 19:30 When Jesus therefore had received the vinegar, he said, It is finished: and he bowed his head, and gave up the ghost.

They used it to mock Him because He was thirsty.

Luke 23:36 And the soldiers also mocked him, coming to him, and offering him vinegar,

Did you miss the trees because of the forest?

Jesus drank the wine. He also drank wine on many other occasions. As a matter of fact, Jesus turned water into wine. And please don't say it was grape juice because I might fall over in my chair.

TrustAndObey

3rd May 2008, 09:46 PM

k4c

3rd May 2008, 09:52 PM

Then you need to do the math and tell us how many people were at the wedding, tell us how many drinks each person had, and explain to me why Jesus would encourage drunkenness while at the same time scripture says a drunkard would never see the kingdom of heaven.

You are drawing conclusions from these verses that are not there. So Jesus made 30 gallons of wine or 200 hundred gallons of wine. This does not matter, the fact is He turned water into wine. Now this wine could have been for a party of 300 or 2000 people, I don't know. Maybe He made enough wine to store for the next five weddings. Maybe the wedding was a special one that was to last several days. Either way Jesus made some good fermented wine, which was complement by the wedding party.

SoldierOfTheKing

6th May 2008, 10:22 PM

Wedding feasts in those days typically lasted for a week. So if the miracle was performed in the middle of the feast, that's about three days' supply of wine. Also, wine was typically watered down about two or three parts water to one part wine before being consumed, so the alcohol content would be significantly lower. So the amount of wine produced at the wedding does not indicate that those in attendance were drunkards.