What is the truth?

[HaReb]

This subject arose on another thread (Why Dec. 25?), but probably needs a thread of it's own:

Two related questions...


a) Can any human being be entirely objective about anything?


b) Can we interpret the Word of G_d to obtain an objective reality that is the definitive truth?

[Henaynei]

because of sin, probably not unfailingly --- but we are nevertheless commanded to do so to our best ability - but not individually - this is why a Beit Din and a Counsel of 70 were set up (and so by scripture) - so that one man does not try to make such decisions on his own - that is the path of self-deception .... "in the counsel of many there is wisdom" B"H

[visionary]

Man must chose His counsel wisely.

The Lord sends messengers, listen to them.

God's signature is on His work, look for it.

"Know" Him, seek Him first, search and you will find, ask and it shall be given unto you.

With these given gifts from God, I say yes we can have objectively reality and definitive truth which is spiritually discerned.

[ozell]

HaReb;42843081]This subject arose on another thread (Why Dec. 25?), but probably needs a thread of it's own:

Two related questions...


a) Can any human being be entirely objective about anything?
No!

Ps 116:11 I said in my haste, All men are liars.

Jn 17:17 Sanctify them through thy truth: thy word is truth.
Mt 4:4 But he answered and said, It is written, Man shall not live by bread alone, but by every word that proceedeth out of the mouth of God.


b) Can we interpret the Word of G_d to obtain an objective reality that is the definitive truth?[/quote]

2Pt 1:20 Knowing this first, that no prophecy of the scripture is of any private interpretation.
21: For the prophecy came not in old time by the will of man: but holy men of God spake as they were moved by the Holy Ghost.


WHY?

Rom 5:12 Wherefore, as by one man sin entered into the world, and death by sin; and so death passed upon all men, for that all have sinned:

Rom 3:23 For all have sinned, and come short of the glory of God;

Rom 5:19 For as by one man's disobedience many were made sinners, so by the obedience of one shall many be made righteous.


1Jn 3:4 Whosoever committeth sin transgresseth also the law: for sin is the transgression of the law.

[ozell]

Jn 17:17 Sanctify them through thy truth: thy word is truth.

Remember Jesus death, not his birth

Lk 22:19 And he took bread, and gave thanks, and brake it, and gave unto them, saying, This is my body which is given for you: this do in remembrance of me.

Keep the passover! not easter

1Cor 5:7 Purge out therefore the old leaven, that ye may be a new lump, as ye are unleavened. For even Christ our passover is sacrificed for us:

The Messiah was in the grave 3 days and 3 nites!

there is no math in the world that can get 3 days and 3 nites from Good friday to easter sunday morning.

Mt 12:38 Then certain of the scribes and of the Pharisees answered, saying, Master, we would see a sign from thee.
39 But he answered and said unto them, An evil and adulterous generation seeketh after a sign; and there shall no sign be given to it, but the sign of the prophet Jonas:
40: For as Jonas was three days and three nights in the whale's belly; so shall the Son of man be three days and three nights in the heart of the earth.

The Messiah said no man has ascended to heaven but him, man says we go to heaven after death

Jn 3:13 And no man hath ascended up to heaven, but he that came down from heaven, even the Son of man which is in heaven.

The Messiah say he will raise the dead at the last day!Man says we are raised at our death.

Jn 6:39 And this is the Father's will which hath sent me, that of all which he hath given me I should lose nothing, but should raise it up again at the last day.

Jn 6:40 And this is the will of him that sent me, that every one which seeth the Son, and believeth on him, may have everlasting life: and I will raise him up at the last day.

Jn 6:44 No man can come to me, except the Father which hath sent me draw him: and I will raise him up at the last day.

Jn 6:54 Whoso eateth my flesh, and drinketh my blood, hath eternal life; and I will raise him up at the last day.

Jn 11:24 Martha saith unto him, I know that he shall rise again in the resurrection at the last day.

now I understand this verse

Ps 116:11 I said in my haste, All men are liars.

[HaReb]

That's great folk, except that, as we see on these fora, people interpret Scripture differently - each claiming that their interpretation is the truth . No, that cannot be the case, obviously, so we look fors omething against which to measure the objective reality of truth - yes we find G_d and his word, but we never read that objectively, do we? If we did it would really change our lives, wouldn't it?

[MichaelTheeArchAngel]

That's great folk, except that, as we see on these fora, people interpret Scripture differently - each claiming that their interpretation is the truth . No, that cannot be the case, obviously, so we look fors omething against which to measure the objective reality of truth - yes we find G_d and his word, but we never read that objectively, do we? If we did it would really change our lives, wouldn't it? It seems to me that most people do not know the diff between an opinion or a matter of fact. I have stated facts before only to have the person say that is my opinion. And if I ask what fact is in dispute, then they would get on the defencieve.:scratch:

[Lulav]

This subject arose on another thread (Why Dec. 25?), but probably needs a thread of it's own:

Two related questions...


a) Can any human being be entirely objective about anything?


b) Can we interpret the Word of G_d to obtain an objective reality that is the definitive truth?

a. no, because we reside in a fallen world subject to the king of this world and his deceptions, even now, they are getting stronger as HaShem told us they would.

b. Yeshua said, I am the Way the Truth and the Life, he is the only truth, and we must believe in him fully, as Messiah and as G-d in his full context of a Jewish Messiah, only then can we start seeing through the lies and deceptions and false trails set up by the evil one.

[Steve Petersen]

This subject arose on another thread (Why Dec. 25?), but probably needs a thread of it's own:

Two related questions...


a) Can any human being be entirely objective about anything?


b) Can we interpret the Word of G_d to obtain an objective reality that is the definitive truth?

No and no.

[HaReb]

What is your suggestion, Steve, for overcoming this problem?

[Steve Petersen]

What is your suggestion, Steve, for overcoming this problem?

It cannot be overcome.

[SGM4HIM]

1. no

2. no


Why make it a problem? Our finite minds are not capable of determine these answers at this time. Seek him in this spirit, read His book, and pray, seek Godly counsel etc.:)

John 4:24
God is spirit, and his worshipers must worship in spirit and in truth."

[HaReb]

It's a problem because we are called to live by the truth of His word - how can people do that if we have no means of identifying, among us, something by which we can measure what those truths really are. How can we debate if we know not the truth we hope to proclaim? If we cannot, how much more of a problem is it for those outside the faith (or visitors to these fora) who cannot comprehend why we can never all agree on most things.

[SGM4HIM]

When did everybody agree on the basic articles of their faith? It's never been an airtight tidy package.:) Judaism, Christianity, Islam all have different subgroups within their faith.

Who comes to faith by losing an argument?

Could my ego handle me possessing "Absolute Truth"?
How about if you had "Absolute Truth" too but not exactly like mine?

I guess it's going to have to be a matter of faith.
Hebrews 11:1
Now faith is the substance of things hoped for, the evidence of things not seen.

Don't get me wrong. Everybody should seek truth, but not lose sleep over it if it's not airtight.

[Steve Petersen]

When did everybody agree on the basic articles of their faith? It's never been an airtight tidy package.:) Judaism, Christianity, Islam all have different subgroups within their faith.

Who comes to faith by losing an argument?

Could my ego handle me possessing "Absolute Truth"?
How about if you had "Absolute Truth" too but not exactly like mine?

I guess it's going to have to be a matter of faith.
Hebrews 11:1
Now faith is the substance of things hoped for, the evidence of things not seen.

Don't get me wrong. Everybody should seek truth, but not lose sleep over it if it's not airtight.

Couldn't have said it better.:thumbsup:

[Henaynei]

you might find some interesting thoughts here

The Truth Project (http://www.thetruthproject.org/)

[HaReb]

How about if you had "Absolute Truth" too but not exactly like mine?



Then one of us would be wrong!

I am floating the debate - I am not trying to prove that I or anyone else has the truth, nor am I debunking the truth that is Scripture in its original form. It is interesting, being a 'looker in' on forum posts, to see people struggle with the very basic concept of what is the truth in relation to our beliefs - what does it boil down to? Is it faith in as much as our personal faith is concerned? That raises more questions: Jesus was constantly looking for people with even a mustard seed of faith. If we do not have even that much, how can we step out in any sort of 'faith' that we have something of the truth? Hence my question - how can we measure what we hold to be true, as truth?

[Athaliamum]

The bible has told us that the Holy Spirit is a Spirit of Truth. The Holy Spirit will testify to the truth of a doctrine. But we are also told to test the Spirits. The Holy Spirit would never contridict God's Word - any of God's Word (From Gen - Rev). So to test a spirit it's message must have it's foundation in contextual scripture. The Holy Spirit would bring these scriptures to our attention and guide us in their application within the understanding of the whole of the Word, it wouldn't separate it.

What is that old war saying...? Divide and concur.
I believe this is a tactic the adversary uses to confuse the truth within scripture. If the bible was read in it's whole (as complete letters and books) and not in it's parts (chapters with verses) I believe we would see less corruption of interpretation.

[HaReb]

Thanks for that AM - but (there's always a 'but') that then begs the question of whether an individual is open to the power of the Holy Spirit. Given that millions of Christians, in particular, but not exclusively by any means, believe that the times of the Holy Spirit died out with the Book of Acts - how can the vast majority measure the truth they hold, by something they do not believe even exists? Perhaps this is really getting to the root of the problems and the divisions within 'the faith' - that those who live by, and measure by, the Holy Spirit will, quite clearly, have a different view from the majority. The latter of which would accuse them of saying anything and simply claiming the Holy Spirit 'told them' what to say. What, then is the answer, if there is one?

[A_Pioneer]

Torah, foundation, I change not!
NT; God changed the rules. (So it is said)

A lie said long enough and loud enough will be taken as truth by some people at some time. Especially when it is ssoooo easy to get to heaven by the new rules!

Even when the NT says that the NT god is the same yesterday , today and forever.

[MichaelTheeArchAngel]

Torah, foundation, I change not!
NT; God changed the rules. (So it is said)

A lie said long enough and loud enough will be taken as truth by some people at some time. Especially when it is ssoooo easy to get to heaven by the new rules!

Even when the NT says that the NT god is the same yesterday , today and forever. Truth is made known by the reason of the facts. I have noticed the many people do not know the difference between an opinion and a fact.

[A_Pioneer]

Truth is made known by the reason of the facts. I have noticed the many people do not know the difference between an opinion and a fact.There you go!!! Shout that from the rooftops!!!

I am sure everyone on this thread understood the comment.

Shalom

[Steve Petersen]

Then one of us would be wrong!


There is another option: you could BOTH be wrong.

[HaReb]

That's true! Thanks

[MichaelTheeArchAngel]

There you go!!! Shout that from the rooftops!!!

I am sure everyone on this thread understood the comment.

Shalom Get a clue!

[A_Pioneer]

Get a clue!I am slow! Now I got the Clue, what MTA says is fact and anybody else is opinion!
Aquaintance with the facts; range of information, awareness or understanding.
What does that clue make me? A gnostic, for sure!
1Co 8:11 And so by your knowledge this weak man is destroyed, the brother for whom Moshiach died.

Todah Rabah

I'll stick to Torah for facts. :thumbsup: ;) :D

[Athaliamum]

Thanks for that AM - but (there's always a 'but') that then begs the question of whether an individual is open to the power of the Holy Spirit. Given that millions of Christians, in particular, but not exclusively by any means, believe that the times of the Holy Spirit died out with the Book of Acts - how can the vast majority measure the truth they hold, by something they do not believe even exists? Perhaps this is really getting to the root of the problems and the divisions within 'the faith' - that those who live by, and measure by, the Holy Spirit will, quite clearly, have a different view from the majority. The latter of which would accuse them of saying anything and simply claiming the Holy Spirit 'told them' what to say. What, then is the answer, if there is one?
Must we find the answer? If the Lord has not chosen to remove the scales from their eyes we can do nothing for it. No defence on our part would be of any value but to lead us in to the sin of using our own strength. We are not called to go around making conversions through debate but to live devoted lives of submission to God and simply give an account of our experience when asked - God must and will do the rest IF He choses.

Other then that our only answer is this - pray for them, the majority. Pray that they will see the corruption of teaching about Yeshua, the Torah, the Holy Spirit that has been set before them.

Pray that they see they have been "captured alive by the Adversary to do his will" - which is to sin, and sin they do so easily because Satan has removed from them the understanding of what sin is.

Sin has become based upon an individuals own interpretation and whether they feel convicted of it and by removing the Torah it is no longer defined what God considers sin.

Satan is cunning and is subtle in his deception - if it was blatant and obvious many would see it for what it is, but they don't. Why? Because a twisting of the truth is harder to recognise then the outright removal of it. And those who believe in a twisted truth are in many ways more lost then those that have no truth at all - as they no longer search for it (they have become luke-warm).

"For - look! - Adonai will come in fire,
and his chariots will be like the whirlwind,
to render his anger furiously,
his rebuke with blazing fire.
For Adonai will judge all humanity
with fire and with the sword,
and those slain by Adonai will be many.

Those who consecrate and purify themselves
in order to enter the gardens,
then follow the one who was already there,
eating pig meat, reptiles and mice,
will all be destroyed together," says Adonai.
Isaiah 66:15-17

It talks about those who purify themselves - who wash themselves with Yeshua's righteousness - and then continue to sin will be destroyed- look and see how they have become ensnared! We can not tell them what truth is - we can only pray that they find it.

Pray. That is the only answer.

[HaReb]

AM...

If the Lord has not chosen to remove the scales from their eyes we can do nothing for it.

Are you /were you, a Calvinist?

[Athaliamum]

No - I've never been any denomination. What does that statement have to do with being a Calvinist? It is simply a direct reference to Shaul's experience.

[HaReb]

A Calvinist would see everything as predestination - G_d will only choose those he predestined. If he has to remove the scales from the eyes of the people, by his own choice, then that is, to a large degree, predestination, because it can be claimed that he will only remove the scales from the eyes of those whom he has called (and not anyone else). This is the root of what nasa1 is arguing elsewhere.

I am not agreeing with it at all, but that is inferred in a comment about G_d being responsible for those who cannot find him - hence my hesitant question

[MichaelTheeArchAngel]

I am slow! Now I got the Clue, what MTA says is fact and anybody else is opinion!
Aquaintance with the facts; range of information, awareness or understanding.
What does that clue make me? A gnostic, for sure!
1Co 8:11 And so by your knowledge this weak man is destroyed, the brother for whom Moshiach died.

Todah Rabah

I'll stick to Torah for facts. :thumbsup: ;) :D In searching for the truth, getting a clue is very important. Insults waste time.

[SGM4HIM]

Torah, foundation, I change not!
NT; God changed the rules. (So it is said)

A lie said long enough and loud enough will be taken as truth by some people at some time. Especially when it is ssoooo easy to get to heaven by the new rules!

Even when the NT says that the NT god is the same yesterday , today and forever.

Is it a lie that some of the rules changed? The book of Hebrews discusses some rule changes.

[Henaynei]

no, Hebrews clarifies the rules, but they never changed

salvation is through b'tiekhon (trusting faith) in HaShem's promise (see Heb 11th chapter)

salvation (i.e. circumcision of the heart) is evidenced by willing and humble submission and obedience to HaShem's instructions for mankind

[Lulav]

This brings to mind the book of Judges, after Yehoshua died and Israel settled in the land, they were no longer unified. And the very last sentence of the book describes their state. I think this also represents Christianity today and for the last 1900 years or so.

At that time there was no king in Israel and a man simply did whatever he thought was right in his own eyes.We have a king today, but are we following him, or what this one or that one says how we should follow? :scratch:

[SGM4HIM]

It's my understanding from Hebrews that there was now a change in acess, preisthood change, temple change, etc.

[ContraMundum]

This subject arose on another thread (Why Dec. 25?), but probably needs a thread of it's own:

Two related questions...


a) Can any human being be entirely objective about anything?

I don't think so.


b) Can we interpret the Word of G_d to obtain an objective reality that is the definitive truth?

That would depend on how you understand the term, wouldn't it?

Anyway, because question a) is open to debate, question b) becomes subjective.

I, for example think that it is humanly impossible to definitively interpret scripture. However, I do believe that through divine guidance, it is possible to be definitive in exegtical matters. However, the debate then shifts to just how and by what means the Divine guides humans to understanding the scriptures. My personal belief is that this occurs collectively and only through the whole ekklesia, but for reasons God only knows much of the scriptures are left to us by God with many possible interpretations- often all holding truth. But how I come to that conclusion is the topic of another thread someday.

So, in short, I think it is humanly impossible to interpret the scriptures infallibly and definitively, but I think that God intervenes on certain (but not all) scriptural maters through the unanimous witness of the undivided ekklesia to give us infallible and definitive truths. God also uses personal revelation of the scriptures to individual believers to guide us to truths imminent to our lives but they will never contradict known and accepted ecumenical dogmatic truths.

[simchat_torah]

a) Can any human being be entirely objective about anything? No. Not "everything". simply isn't humanly possible.
b) Can we interpret the Word of G_d to obtain an objective reality that is the definitive truth?Partially, yes.

[Athaliamum]

If he has to remove the scales from the eyes of the people, by his own choice, then that is, to a large degree, predestination, because it can be claimed that he will only remove the scales from the eyes of those whom he has called (and not anyone else). This is the root of what nasa1 is arguing elsewhere.

I am not agreeing with it at all, but that is inferred in a comment about G_d being responsible for those who cannot find him - hence my hesitant question.

I've never met a calvanist, at least to my knowledge, so I am unfamiliar with this particular understanding.

I am a stickler for context (if some of you have not guessed by now ;) ). The reference I made, I made as a metophoric reference to all of Shauls experience of being blinded.

I do believe that God hides his light from humankind sometimes (even says so in the bible) but those who look for it will find it. He doesn't hide from those who seek him. And this kinda goes with this particular story about Shaul's, which has two parts to it - the removing of the scales was just the end result. Yeshua didn't just give him scales, wait a little bit and then remove them - Shaul had to do something first.

He had to:
1. Stop!
2. Put aside his own preconcieved ideas and things taught by men.
3. Listen to God.

It was only after Shaul had done these things that God removed his scales.

And this was my point of the majority believeing in a twisted truth. They can't find the truth and have God fully reveal himself to them by removing the scales because they fail to listen to Him.

Look at how a church will make a conversion. They will bring someone to faith in Yeshua (Jesus) and as soon as they have repented they'll enroll them in a class or give them a pamphlete to tell them what it all means. They'll do bible studies with only snipits of the actual bible thrown in here or there out of context for comformation or they'll preach a one hour sermon and maybe only quote 5 disjointed sentences. As soon as they come to faith they learn about God from a man - not God himself.

[visionary]

I don't think so.




That would depend on how you understand the term, wouldn't it?

Anyway, because question a) is open to debate, question b) becomes subjective.

I, for example think that it is humanly impossible to definitively interpret scripture. However, I do believe that through divine guidance, it is possible to be definitive in exegtical matters. However, the debate then shifts to just how and by what means the Divine guides humans to understanding the scriptures. My personal belief is that this occurs collectively and only through the whole ekklesia, but for reasons God only knows much of the scriptures are left to us by God with many possible interpretations- often all holding truth. But how I come to that conclusion is the topic of another thread someday.

So, in short, I think it is humanly impossible to interpret the scriptures infallibly and definitively, but I think that God intervenes on certain (but not all) scriptural maters through the unanimous witness of the undivided ekklesia to give us infallible and definitive truths. God also uses personal revelation of the scriptures to individual believers to guide us to truths imminent to our lives but they will never contradict known and accepted ecumenical dogmatic truths.No inspiratiom comes collectively, but through one inspired who leads others.... as history has shown. God does use personal revelations of scriptures to witness to His Spirit working in the individual's lives as befitting their personal spiritual growth.

[A_Pioneer]

In searching for the truth, getting a clue is very important. Insults waste time.
Do riddles save time?

[ContraMundum]

No inspiratiom comes collectively, but through one inspired who leads others.... as history has shown.

Perhaps we're saying the same thing from different angles here.

The "others" can only follow an inspired leader if the Holy Spirit works in their lives to confirm the claims of the "leader", right?

It's collectively done through many individuals.

We need to be careful when following men who claim inspiration. There's numerous warnings against that in scripture. This is why Yeshua left no such instruction to the ekklesia. Rather, we are to heed to voice of the Apostles and those following loyally in their footsteps.

[simchat_torah]

In searching for the truth, getting a clue is very important. Insults waste time.And crazy people?

Well... they just spice up the forum ;)

[visionary]

Perhaps we're saying the same thing from different angles here.

The "others" can only follow an inspired leader if the Holy Spirit works in their lives to confirm the claims of the "leader", right?

It's collectively done through many individuals.

We need to be careful when following men who claim inspiration. There's numerous warnings against that in scripture. This is why Yeshua left no such instruction to the ekklesia. Rather, we are to heed to voice of the Apostles and those following loyally in their footsteps.The Lord is wise in knowing when to strike the match that starts the fire going... Just as the feasts of the Lord are sweeping through the believers who have heard the voice to search them.... 100 years ago,... there was no talk of the Lord's feasts... now there is .... it is like it is in the air we breath and if we hear His voice, we follow to see where it will lead us.

[ozell]

Where does true knowledge come from?

1John 2:21 "I have not written unto you because ye know not the truth, but because ye know it, and that no lie is of the truth.

22 Who is a liar but he that denieth that Jesus is the Christ? He is an Anti-Christ, that denieth the Father and the Son.

23 Whosoever denieth the Son, the same hath not the Father: (but) he that acknowledgeth the Son hath the Father also.

24 Let that therefore abide in you, which ye have heard from the beginning. If that which ye have heard from the beginning shall remain in you, ye also shall continue in the Son, and in the Father.

25 And this is the promise that he hath promised us, even eternal life.

26 These things have I written unto you concerning them that seduce you.

27 But the anointing which ye have received of him abideth in you, and ye need not that any man teach you: but as the same anointing teacheth you all things, and is truth, and is no lie, and even as it has taught you, ye shall abide in him."

[visionary]

27 But the anointing which ye have received of him abideth in you, and ye need not that any man teach you: but as the same anointing teacheth you all things, and is truth, and is no lie, and even as it has taught you, ye shall abide in him."Abide in Him... for in Him is all truth.