What has happened to this place?

[Theophorus]

The censorship has really gotten out of hand.

[HowardDean]

I do not know. I am back visitng again so haven't noticed anything.:confused:

[Matrona]

Yeah, I noticed a certain thread is missing, a thread that broke no rules, so its disappearance is rather mysterious.

Then again, I remember a mod who accused me of "promoting a non-Christian religion" for quoting the Synodikon of Orthodoxy. ^_^

[NewToLife]

I think the place has gone downhill as extremists have taken over.

[ThePosterFormerlyKnownAs]

Let's pray for our mods, it can't be easy moderating on a forum that strives so hard for a balance between pluralism and truth. This is not said sarcastically but rather, genuinely. They don't always agree with some of the rules but they have to enforce them because, ultimately, we are only guests here.

[kamikat]

To be honest, since Christian Forums was purchased by a new owner, certain rules have become mandatory that we might have overlooked in the past. Since I have come back to TAW, the way the team works is dramatically different than the way it used to work. We also tend to have more input from staff who are not strictly TAW staff. It appears that this is how the new owner wants things done.

[NewToLife]

To be honest, since Christian Forums was purchased by a new owner, certain rules have become mandatory that we might have overlooked in the past. Since I have come back to TAW, the way the team works is dramatically different than the way it used to work. We also tend to have more input from staff who are not strictly TAW staff. It appears that this is how the new owner wants things done.

If non-Orthodox now have influence into moderation here in TAW I for one find that disturbing....

[kamikat]

If non-Orthodox now have influence into moderation here in TAW I for one find that disturbing....

they don't moderate for theological content, just rules. One doesn't have to be Orthodox to recognize when a post is overly rude, a flame or a troll.

[Philothei]

do they jut yank out threads without notice? I think that has been hapenning all over the place.....

ph,

[kamikat]

as far as I can tell, no. There are some things that are required to be yanked, such as suicide topics, trolling stuff like porn or other filth, talk of illegal activity like drug use. On occasion, threads will be moved to other areas. Suicide, drug abuse, addiction, ect threads usually get moved to the Recovery area of CF, but you should get some kind of automated pm with that. I believe the same thing happens when something is moved from the main TAW area to the debate subform, however, I know I haven't been getting automated pm's to inform me of reports, so maybe the automated system is wonky lately.

[Khaleas]

I've been thinking the same exact thing... this is not a friendly place anymore... it's worse than freaking Iran... This used to be the first board I checked in the morning and now it's the last and it doesn't make me happy one bit anymore... Yea, yea, we're going to be told we don't have to be here (thanks) but maybe we would like to be here in a more friendly environment.

Hey Blake, can you get that new and improved OP up and running soon....

(wanders back to the Finnish Ortho board)

[rusmeister]

do they jut yank out threads without notice? I think that has been hapenning all over the place.....

ph,
What I find especially creepy is that all reference to the thread is erased - it would be much more reassuring to see the references in links (own posts, control panel, rep links) saying "removed" or whatever. This 'without a trace' thing is unnerving.

[Philothei]

You are right that is odd... Hm mine usually show up at the "own" but there ....is no thread....odd

[HowardDean]

Have you guys asked the mods or admins?

[Akathist]

Anytime a thread is removed here at CF there is an automatic notice that is supposed to go to the member who started the thread. Please send a pm to staff if your thread that you started was removed and you wonder about it. Perhaps there is a new bug.

Threads that staff remove have an explanation sent to the member who started the thread via the pm system in addition to the automatic notification.

Any thread that has been removed was removed because the staff team voted that it was necessary. The OP of the thread was informed about the reason for the removal. They were also informed that they had the right to appeal the removal to the Review Team.

I feel strongly about the idea of censorship. If a thread is within the rules of CF I push very hard for it to not be removed. (Recently staff reopened a thread that was not a rule violation and we had many complaints about that. We know as staff that we will not please everyone.)

However, as staff we can not just look atindividual threads in isolation any longer. This is not how the new owner wants us to function. We must look at the bigger picture. As staff we are responsible for the overall feel of a forum area.

If there are threads that are causing complaints we must look at them. If these threads are off topic to the area they are in we must consider removing them. If appropriate we move them.

Otherwise a forum area becomes so full of off topic and potentially offensive threads that it drives other members away. It prevents lurking members from becomeing participants.

Recently there were a lot of complaints about some off topic threads in TAW. Staff took several days to discuss the matter before deciding to remove those off topic discussions for the welfare of the forum area and as part of the instruction to a member about what threads are off topic and what threads are not off topic.

I understand that individual is also writing to members or talking on IM and giving his side of the situation in a possibly slanted manner. They may also be exaggerating.

Please remember that staff have restrictions about what we can publically share or for that matter share in a pm if it is about another member.

Therefore there will likely not be a way for members to know the full situation and understand why staff have functioned as they have.

I assure you that TAW staff care about all members, even a member who may be campaigning to convince others he or she is not cared about. Sometimes we need to show others we care by setting boundaries for them and asking them to take a break from posting here temporarily.

Caring for an individual does not however over ride the need to care for the larger group. It is also caring to the group to put boundaries up on certain behaviors of individuals.

In a company for example, a manager will correct a behavior of a staff person if that behavior is negatively effecting the environment of the workplace. Even if some of the staff disagree that any correction should ever be done, it must be done at times.

In a work place, the manager often knows more about the situation then all of the staff because they are aware of confidential information that can not be shared.

Please try to trust that staff are taking the time to think these situations through carefully. We are discussing them as a team. We are striving to make decisions that is in the best interest of everyone. Also, we have to follow procedure and policies set by the owner of CF and upper staff.

[Philothei]

No where in the rules of CF says that "if the members think that in a cetrain forum, in their opinion, there are threads 'off topic' they can complain and have them removed..." is this a new rule? Ithought that off-topic is only for posts....

[Theophorus]

It's all cleared up now. The secret machinations of CF are determined to protect us from ourselves in pursuit of a false uptopia.

Let us pray for the ecumenical elite that must bear this heavy burden on our behalf.

[Akathist]

Off topic is for threads as well as posts.

Members are allowed to report any thread or post for staff to review. Staff use TAW guidelines related to CF rules and moderation procedures and policies of CF when discussing these reports.

To my knowledge, any recent thread removed from TAW by TAW staff had the answer to the question in the OP answered and the OP had read the answers. This played a role in our decision making.

[Akathist]

It's all cleared up now. The secret machinations of CF are determined to protect us from ourselves in pursuit of a false uptopia.

Let us pray for the ecumenical elite that must bear this heavy burden on our behalf.

I do not think it is fair to refer to Blake, Hoankan, kamikat, Axion Esti, choirfiend, etc as "ecumenical elite".

The TAW staff team cares about the members and they work very hard. They all are growing in the EO faith and are your brothers and sisters.

Blake is coming into the Church soon we hope. The rest are in the Church and receive the same sacrements you do. They defend the EO faith. They share the same beliefs about the Church anyone else who is EO believes.

[Lukaris]

I am guessing that it is also not censorship per se but the mods may have too much on their plates & a more leveling approach is being taken since more scrutiny cannot be applied but an action must be taken. I have had posts removed (some outside of TAW) that were moths old but became volatile when a controversy was reignited by a more recent post.

[Theophorus]

I do not think it is fair to refer to Blake, Hoankan, kamikat, Axion Esti, choirfiend, etc as "ecumenical elite".

Did they make the rules? I don't think they are the only members of the magestrium.

[Akathist]

Did they make the rules? I don't think they are the only members of the magestrium.

Thanks for clarifying. :hug:

[Sacrum Silentium]

Sorry if I've offended anyone. PM me directly and let me know what I can do to change.

[Matrona]

It's all cleared up now. The secret machinations of CF are determined to protect us from ourselves in pursuit of a false uptopia.

Let us pray for the ecumenical elite that must bear this heavy burden on our behalf.

:bow:

[MsDahl]

Hmm...does anyone on the admin team get paid to do what they do? If not, it certainly seems like this "elite group" takes their positions as seriously as a job.

I worry about those who take the internet so seriously.

The internet is supposed to be a place for people to have a reprieve of some sort from living such a PC life offline due to the culture we live in. Unfortunately, because so many people take it to the extreme level, it is losing its appeal as a place to chill out and unwind. I do not feel at all comfortable getting personal here in TAW based on all this censorship. I wonder if there are other new posters who feel the same way.

[Hoankan]

What I find especially creepy is that all reference to the thread is erased - it would be much more reassuring to see the references in links (own posts, control panel, rep links) saying "removed" or whatever. This 'without a trace' thing is unnerving.
It might be unnerving but if the system was set up to let everybody see the deleted threads and their names then you might see one advertising pornography that got deleted. No matter how nice that idea is, it would drag up things that really should be left unseen.

[Sacrum Silentium]

A little regulation keeps things going smooth. Honestly, I'm an easy person to get along with, and grouping me in some holier-than-thou elitist category is rawly offensive. This is a thankless job and I signed on just so I can try to help.

Thanks.

[ThePosterFormerlyKnownAs]

So, just out of curiosity, what constitutes an off topic thread? Does this mean I can't start a thread to discuss my new Widget and what all it does or are there specific criteria that determine "off topic" and that term is used to include various types of threads that might be offensive?

[SeekingTheLight]

So, just out of curiosity, what constitutes an off topic thread? Does this mean I can't start a thread to discuss my new Widget and what all it does or are there specific criteria that determine "off topic" and that term is used to include various types of threads that might be offensive?
You know, I've been wondering the same thing.

[Hoankan]

This is in the TAW guidelines (http://christianforums.com/t6613009-the-ancient-way-forum-guidelines.html)



Active promotion of views contrary to the established teachings of canonical Orthodox Churches are considered off topic. This includes schismatic or Old Believer teachings.
TAW is a place for people to ask questions, fellowship and general discussion.
The debate sub-forum: St. Justin-Martyr's Corner (http://http//christianforums.com/f827-st-justin-martyr...christian.html)houses political debates, discussions about other faiths in comparison to the Orthodox faith, and any other kind of heavy debate.
The main forum area of TAW is for non-EO to ask questions, discussion of EO beliefs, prayer requests, fellowship threads (even nonreligious), current (nonpolitical) events, and light debate about EO beliefs including minor disagreements between members on theological issues is allowed.

So for example talking about your new widget would be fellowship. Now if you want to hotly debate whether your new widget is better than everybody else's widgets, then that would be in the debate forum. Note, I say hotly because light debate is fine.

[LogosRhema]

Yea threads have begun to mysteriously disappear or be closed. Even though no argument, flaw, or anything was admitted. I've seen topics that were completely open discussion just be closed... sounds like the government censorship on religion... but the government has no control on whats going on here... I'd hope.

[Philothei]

IMO most threads that got zapped do fall into those categories... We need more concrete evidence .... Hoankan

[Philothei]

Oh so it is not only TAW... is it a bug then? lol.... Maybe mods with the flu bug should not mod....lol.........hehehe

[Hoankan]

Can you elaborate on what you think admitted should be about? I'm a bit confused.

[Akathist]

IMO most threads that got zapped do fall into those categories... We need more concrete evidence .... Hoankan

What kinds of discussions are inappropriate in your fellowship hall?

Now, imagine that there were a dozen of those conversations happening at the same time.

This is as concrete as I will get. I have told you repeatedly that things are confidential. I thought you understood what that meant.

When people are corrected for doing something it is none of anyone else's business. If we start discussing things openly it becomes gossip and I am not interested in gossip.

[Monica, child of God]

If we start discussing things openly it becomes gossip and I am not interested in gossip.

Actually, discussing things openly is the opposite of gossip. I am not saying that mods have to reveal details in every situation. But do realize that the more secretive and paternalistic you guys are, the more those who are not "in the know" will talk and speculate.

M.

[Khaleas]

What kinds of discussions are inappropriate in your fellowship hall?

Now, imagine that there were a dozen of those conversations happening at the same time.

This is as concrete as I will get. I have told you repeatedly that things are confidential. I thought you understood what that meant.

When people are corrected for doing something it is none of anyone else's business. If we start discussing things openly it becomes gossip and I am not interested in gossip.
Well, you have generally replied to any person that they don't have to participate. Don't participate...

There is clearly some discussion to be had and having it by PM makes no difference in the open forum. I completely agree with Monica on this one. Never thought I'd say it but there was some good things with Foru.ms....
Clearly this is no longer a place where we can love everyone Orthodox or those interested in our faith (I'm excluding clear violations like posting porn etc). We do not support the weak anymore nor do we forgive them for what missteps they make, we just kick them to the curb. Woohoo, TAW has become Protestant!
And no, per your normal comment, I don't have to be here. But there are some people I do care about here (when they are allowed to enter the holy sanctuary of TAW) and want to keep in touch with. I find myself checking TAW the last each day, instead of first like it used to be. It's not a friendly place anymore, it's more like communist Cuba or something...

[Tonks]

Good morning folks,

Don't be too hard on the folks...some of the decisions to move threads were made over their (vociferous) objections...in one of the cases by me. In the case of the thread that I moved it had nothing to do with theology, Orthodoxy and the like but rather some personal issues.

For those issues I take the blame as they could have been handled somewhat better from my end, I think.

No, we do not get paid.

[Philothei]

We need more concrete evidence

Good morning folks,

Don't be too hard on the folks...some of the decisions to move threads were made over their (vociferous) objections...in one of the cases by me. In the case of the thread that I moved it had nothing to do with theology, Orthodoxy and the like but rather some personal issues.

For those issues I take the blame as they could have been handled somewhat better from my end, I think.

No, we do not get paid.


Hey guys,

Akathist you missinterpret my saying "concrete evidence" I was not talking about disclosing confidential information.... I was talking about the "WAY" you close threads... i.e.

Am I allowed to talk about my cat? or my dog? in the threads if I want to? or do I have to be "rigid" and "controlled" and try not to go off topic ... since it will be zapped? There was a recent thread about (just an example) about how God had blessed someone with more children.... Is that thread "offensive" what are the standards then? and further why these threads instead of being zapped moved to the debate area?

Mr. Tonks....

We have to be open to a degree ....my thinking goes that the poster or op had problems with personal issues.... ok then I am sure that in cases like these confidentiality is important but still a communication with the forum members would be appreciated... I know we should not be filled with details but ....is it better to deal with suspicion??

You could announce that action was taken since there was a serious personal matter... that is taking place to one of the members... that simple not need to create more intrigue in this forum.

Also explain the extend of the "limits" that posters have in this forum... Zapping threads without explanation would always create questions and reactions. You as mods are sitting on "hot coals".... and it you should expect that you will be questioned... on your actions.... either you want it or not. Poeple in authority do have this responsibilty to communicate that authority and explain it. Still prayers to you. May the Lord keep you and help you in your difficult task and shine his light on you so you lead in love and humility.


Philothei

[Philothei]

Now, imagine that there were a dozen of those conversations happening at the same time.



Okay then why all kind of innapropriate topics are discussed in the teen section??? I do not see anything been zapped there.... Give us examples of "innapropriate" topics..... That sounds so subjective....

What constitutes "inappropriate" you guys?

[kamikat]

Akathist you missinterpret my saying "concrete evidence" I was not talking about disclosing confidential information.... I was talking about the "WAY" you close threads... i.e.

Am I allowed to talk about my cat? or my dog? in the threads if I want to? or do I have to be "rigid" and "controlled" and try not to go off topic ... since it will be zapped? There was a recent thread about (just an example) about how God had blessed someone with more children.... Is that thread "offensive" what are the standards then? and further why these threads instead of being zapped moved to the debate area?


Philothei

In a sense, you are correct. Usually, threads get moved or deleted after there's been a report. The thread about blessings had a problem with an obvious troll. However, it could have been cleaned up and reopened. I didn't even know it was deleted. Are you sure it was and not back on page 3 or 4?

[kamikat]

BTW, I found rainbowbright's thread on page 2. I didn't think it was "zapped".

[Philothei]

I will ask a straight forward question ... how come 14 threads were zapped? They were ALL violating rules?

[Sacrum Silentium]

Let me ask a question... what are you guys really so steamed about? I mean seriously. This whole taking potshots at staff is getting out of hand and I'm pretty aggravated about it. If you don't like the way things are run, go to the front of the line and do something about it. Don't take your frustration out on me or the rest of the TAW staff who signed on to help. If it were up to me, everyone on staff would take a nice big long vacation and leave all these forums up to whatever garbage people wanna spew.

What would you want to change for crying out loud? That's how you get things done, talking about it.

We're TAWers, just like the rest of you. We're not "up there" in a different place, we're all here for the same thing. Only thing we want to do is help. If we haven't helped, tell us how, and what you would do to change it, but if it's just going to be potshots and groaning... how can anything change. Help us help you. Tell us exactly what's wrong. I make my living as a customer service representative for Dish Network, I'm an easy guy to get along with, and I have a desire to help people. To put me up on some unreachable level isn't something I've done or any of the rest of the staff have done. PM me, or Akathist, any of us, and express your concerns.

But I really am getting tired of everyone speaking behind everyone elses back about things and getting nothing done.

[Tishri1]

....

We have to be open to a degree ....my thinking goes that the poster or op had problems with personal issues.... ok then I am sure that in cases like these confidentiality is important but still a communication with the forum members would be appreciated... I know we should not be filled with details but ....is it better to deal with suspicion??

You could announce that action was taken since there was a serious personal matter... that is taking place to one of the members... that simple not need to create more intrigue in this forum.

Also explain the extend of the "limits" that posters have in this forum... Zapping threads without explanation would always create questions and reactions.


PhilotheiPhilothei you have made an excellent point and one I think I have a solution too.....

If we were to have a sticky in every forum that was closed to discussion, but was viewable to the members and used primarily for giving information on posts that needed to be moved would that be satisfactory to you all?

I think I can make it happen and will bring it up for discussion with all the admins today....I totally understand your frustration and I think an information thread is desperately needed in every forum in CF:thumbsup::hug:

[nutroll]

I'm not really sure what all the fuss is about. I haven't noticed a huge amount of missing threads. However, just for full disclosure, I asked for one of my threads to be zapped because it started to make me uncomfortable having it in an open forum. I apologize if I have in any way contributed to people thinking that there is an Invasion of the Thread Snatchers. I for one have never had any problems with the staff here, and I really appreciate all that they do on our behalf. I am glad to see that we have even more mods lately because I know that it was difficult to keep up with things before they all signed on. May God bless and guide the work of TAW staff for the benefit of us all.

[Sacrum Silentium]

We're both trying to figure out what the fuss is about, Matthew, and I'm on the staff team.

[Khaleas]

I did inquire about becoming a mod back in the day, the request was turned down because according to whomever was in charge then (this was before most current mods were even around)... you needed to be active in more than one forum (which I prefer not to be). After that I heard that people were invited to be mods and apparently volunteering was not the way to go. So needless to say, that was it for me, forever (I do mod two other boards and removing posts require a lot more transparency than it does here).

Having mods say to people to stay out of threads if they don't like the way they are going is just pretty rich. Guess we aren't all on the same level here and cannot all talk/debate in whatever threads we choose.

Thing is that modding should not be personal and that's exactly how it looks now. It looks like a wild chase on some while others get away with whatever they please no matter how off topic they are.

[Philothei]

Yes, the communication part is what is lacking plus the disermnent has to be not only pastoral but also theological ... WE EO have other standards like....lets say in the "recovery" forum... I would respect to make a dinstiction according to different fora....

Philothei

[Sacrum Silentium]

So let's all communicate. None of us are on some 'elite ecumenical team', rather, that's some rocky pedestal people are placing us on and it's unfair. We're right here, and trust me, we all want this resolved as much as you guys do.

[Philothei]

You can start by answering the question that you all I have a hint you are avoiding....why all these 20 threads were zapped?

Some transparency here please...

Those are way too many threads to be zapped with no explanation.

[Sacrum Silentium]

Sure, let's all be open here. :)

One, when members are banned, their posts are removed. It's the standard. 16 or so of those threads were started by a member who got a small vacation from TAW, not to mention we had several reports on them and came to the unanimous decision they should be moved. We take the blame for that.

Other threads, I honestly don't even know what threads those are, but all staff actions are able to be appealed if you would like to do so. It won't be TAW staff who handles the appeal, it'll be a third party.

Xenia and I are more than ready to be open here, even at the sake of losing our positions. Look, we signed up to help, and that's what we're here for. It's not worth it to me, or Xenia, to keep trying to make things right when we're hurting feelings in the process... but since we're all being open and honest here, it's not right that no one else here is doing all the hard work behind the scenes that she is doing... a very, very thankless and time-consuming job... yet has a lot of spiteful things to say.

It's come to my attention through a PM that people are going to be avoiding the new DnA website and have avoided OP simply because Xenia is a staff member there. Whether that's true or not, that makes me sick, disgusted, and hurt. I'm a catechumen and I don't commune, but aren't you all one Body?

I don't even see what the fuss is all about. Banned members get their posts removed, and this one for good reason, because TAW members themselves requested they be removed. It's true that you can't please everybody, but that's why there are PMs and the appeals system... coming to TAW and getting bashed wasn't something I imagined I'd be dealing with over a year ago when I was here for inquiry into the faith.

And why? Because I'm trying to help? And how much worse is it, when the same is being done to Xenia who is Orthodox and has been here way longer than I have.

Xenia has a thread up now to address these issues. What she's posting could very well cause some stipulations, but she felt that's what's right. I hope it goes to show that she is not in some holier-than-thou elite position... she's a friend, and a sister, and a member on this same forum, who goes behind the scenes to try and help in very time-consuming and thankless ways.

Again, if you don't like the 'transparency' take it to CF as a whole, not to the individuals trying to help the community through the rules which it has set.

[Akathist]

please see this thread: http://christianforums.com/t6767322-about-threads-that-staff-recently-removed-and-other-information.html

[Tonks]

Sure, let's all be open here. :)

One, when members are banned, their posts are removed. It's the standard. 16 or so of those threads were started by a member who got a small vacation from TAW, not to mention we had several reports on them and came to the unanimous decision they should be moved. We take the blame for that.


The bit above in red is only if someone is ebanned. If they are normal banned their posts remain in plain sight.

For those that don't know...ebanning deletes posts from public view, removes the username from the member list etc...it can be disruptive to the database so is generally only done with folks that have 100 posts or less...trolls, folks that post porn etc. This way it removes all their posts at once.

m

[Akathist]

In a sense, you are correct. Usually, threads get moved or deleted after there's been a report. The thread about blessings had a problem with an obvious troll. However, it could have been cleaned up and reopened. I didn't even know it was deleted. Are you sure it was and not back on page 3 or 4?

It was not deleted kami. We didn't even close it that I recall. But it was cleaned up.

[rusmeister]

To the staff, for what it's worth...

I think that the concerns of mature posters are not aimed at bashing staff at all. We know that you guys have dealings with people who believe the opposite of what we as Orthodox Christians do, that there are some aspects of our faith that don't sit well with the ownership, etc.

Our concerns are about how to prevent an Orwellian environment in the face of that. I'm sure that you are doing a lot to prevent that; we're just laying out the concerns.

Things like the thread where I got reported (first time ever!) were simply a result of not knowing that it was staff action. It was so bizarre I thought a bug was more likely.

Personally, I am not attacking you guys, I wouldn't take your volunteer job, and if this job pulls away from what you should really be spending your time on, then maybe nobody ought to be doing it and we all ought to go home. I love having this, but know that 'modding' would overload my spiritual plate.

[Theophorus]

Well, I was reported for this thread by an " Anonymous Reporter". This goes against Christian ethics. Even secular society allows one to know his accuser. This is part of the problem.

[Philothei]

I would second you rus... And finally thanks you for the transparency Sacrum...

Explaining to us that once a member gets a ban ...their threads get closed would have been enough... How are we supposed to know that? We are not fortune tellers...

Sorry for putting you on the spot... but if you would have said that to Rus in the first place when he opened the thread I think it would have avoided all this.... So the rest of us who got pms and .... saw the mods writing in the post that they will tell ....Rus... in a pm... would not have rise so much fuss...

We know you guys do a hard job and want you to keep it. Just try to understand that we are all mature adutls not kids that need to be told in secret the rules .... why? Just say when someone get banned we close some of his threads... that is all.... no biggy. Instead the secrecy spreads frustration and suspicion and above all misstrust.... Putting it in theological terms let us be honest and trust each other that we are not here to "stab" others.... I personally do not mind the mods making decisions as long as they lay down the rules for making those decisions... so confidentiality has absolutely nothing to do with it..

Again thanks Tonks and Blake for the information about how this works. I would suggest also like Tishn mentioned that these and other rule s to be communicated to us through a post... or a sticky so in the future we know what to expect and not through the "gossip" line....

Again forgive me I need to work on my prayer life more and talk less...

Philothei