2 questions ;)

[MoNiCa4316]

:wave: Hello everyone, I asked two questions over at the Catholic forum..and I'm wondering what the Orthodox response would be, so I'm going to ask them here too.

Here was my original post:

"1. I've always kind of wondered why God would want people to honour Mary. btw I'm not criticizing this at all, because I'm beginning to really love Mary too and I don't see a problem with the Rosary, etc. This is more of an 'intellectual' question for me and I guess I just need a Catholic to explain this to me.

I read about Fatima, and how Mary said that God wants people to have more devotion to her and that this would help bring peace. As you can imagine this is difficult to understand for anyone with a Protestant background ;) what do you all think?

I was thinking that maybe when we honour Mary, we're actually honouring Jesus, because we don't honour her for her own sake. She is special because she is His mother..you see? Does this make sense? But I want to understand this more and a part of me is still skeptical. I guess a "Protestant reply" would be that God would only ask devotion to Himself...which actually makes a lot of sense, and is Biblical...so how is devotion to Mary explained? Maybe we honour God in a special way by honouring Mary? I hope there's an answer for this.

2. My other question is kinda complex....I was reading about Fatima, as I said, and in the wikipedia article it says: "She [Mary] exhorted the children to do penance and to make sacrifices to save sinners. The children wore tight cords around their waists to cause pain, abstained from drinking water on hot days, and performed other works of penance." It seems that in Catholicism (and I guess in Eastern Orthodoxy), many people believe that if they pray, fast, repent, do penance/sacrifice, good works, etc, God will have mercy on them and even on the world. Some people seem to believe that if we suffer for Christ, we are not only sharing in His suffering on the Cross, but we are helping make the world more peaceful, etc. I probably really simplified this lol but maybe you see what I mean.

I'm guessing the logic behind this is that when we demonstrate our love for 'sinners' by suffering for them, God reaches out to them and helps them repent, believe, etc. Basically, this might be one of the ways that God reconciles people to Himself..as we know this happens by grace.

But from a Protestant perspective, this doesn't make much sense at all. Prayer and repentance makes sense, and Christians of all denominations and churches pray for the lost that they may be saved. But probably some people would criticize this whole idea of penance/suffering/sacrifice to save sinners....they would say that our suffering is not needed because Christ suffered on the Cross for everyone already.

Well..this makes a lot of sense to me.. it's true that by His death, He saved the whole world. So how does our suffering contribute to God's plan of salvation? I really want to figure this out...maybe I'm just misunderstanding/missing something. I hope my post makes sense, lol."

Then I posted this:

"I thought of two possible answers to my second question...what do you all think? :)
1. Christ told us to follow Him. No servant is greater than their master...if Christ suffered, we would too. And if this is done with love, God honours it and maybe our prayers are more effective as a result..?
2. Yes Christ 'paid it all' on the Cross, and His sacrifice is enough..but there are lots of people who are still unbelieving and rejecting Him. Most Christians believe that repentance and conversion is a result of God's grace working in the person's heart. So if we pray for the lost, He will answer our prayers and have mercy on them, and perhaps give them more chances to come to Him. And if we not only pray for them but show our love to them by self-sacrifice, that is even more powerful?"

What do you guys think? :) Is the Orthodox view of this different than the Catholic view? (btw, please let's not discuss Fatima, I just used that as an example lol).

Thanks!!

monica

[Monica, child of God]

"1. I've always kind of wondered why God would want people to honour Mary.

We honor Mary because we are told to do so:



for he has been mindful
of the humble state of his servant.
From now on all generations will call me blessed,
for the Mighty One has done great things for me—
holy is his name.

We use the words of the angel Gabriel and the holy woman Elizabeth in Scripture to honor her: "Rejoice, Mary full of grace! The Lord is with you! Blessed are you among women and blessed is the fruit of your womb!"

Mary is honored because she bore God the Word but we also honor her for her life and her faith:

And it happened, as [Jesus] spoke these things, that a certain woman from the crowd raised her voice and said to Him, “Blessed is the womb that bore You, and the breasts which nursed You!”

But He said, “More than that, blessed are those who hear the word of God and keep it!”

Mary is the first person in the Church to hear the Word--the Annunciation-- and keep it.

But in Orthodoxy, you won't hear the same sort of emphasis in Marian devotion as you do in Catholicism. We don't see ourselves as "making reparations for wounds to her immaculate heart." When she visits people, such as the monks on Mt. Athos, she does not tell us to increase our devotion to her. Perhaps it is because our level of veneration to her is just right :)

more in a minute...

[Monica, child of God]

2. My other question is kinda complex....I was reading about Fatima, as I said, and in the wikipedia article it says: "She [Mary] exhorted the children to do penance and to make sacrifices to save sinners. The children wore tight cords around their waists to cause pain, abstained from drinking water on hot days, and performed other works of penance." It seems that in Catholicism (and I guess in Eastern Orthodoxy), many people believe that if they pray, fast, repent, do penance/sacrifice, good works, etc, God will have mercy on them and even on the world.

Well, we don't fast to create suffering for ourselves. We fast in order to draw away from the world and as an aid in prayer. Most people learn to fast in community with common general rules. Making up ones own fasting rule is kind of individualistic and would not be recommended in our Church for various reasons.

The fasting is not an end in itself. The idea of causing oneself pain or discomfort is not a part of Orthodox Christianity. God does not need for us to fast or cause ourselves pain. He would rather that we persevere in this world with faith which will bring "natural" suffering as we mourn for the fallenness of creation and struggle against our flesh. We do not need to create suffering as this world has enough already.

Some people seem to believe that if we suffer for Christ, we are not only sharing in His suffering on the Cross, but we are helping make the world more peaceful, etc. I probably really simplified this lol but maybe you see what I mean.

Well this is kind of true:


For as the sufferings of Christ abound in us, so our consolation also abounds through Christ. Now if we are afflicted, it is for your consolation and salvation, which is effective for enduring the same sufferings which we also suffer. Or if we are comforted, it is for your consolation and salvation. And our hope for you is steadfast, because we know that as you are partakers of the sufferings, so also you will partake of the consolation.

The Body of Christ suffers in this world because it is not of this world. That is a part of our salvation which is a continual process until we fully brought into the age to come.

But the suffering of the apostles that Paul was refering to was not a self created suffering. It was a natural consequence of sharing the gospel in the fallen world aka the Roman Empire. We should expect suffering as we are being saved but we don't need to create it.

I'm guessing the logic behind this is that when we demonstrate our love for 'sinners' by suffering for them, God reaches out to them and helps them repent, believe, etc. Basically, this might be one of the ways that God reconciles people to Himself..as we know this happens by grace.

In a sense. God is mystically present in the Body of Christ. He is also mystically present in the poor. So when we leave our comfortable homes to be missionaries or even just to serve at our local homeless shelter, God uses that to change our hearts and to touch others.

But from a Protestant perspective, this doesn't make much sense at all. Prayer and repentance makes sense, and Christians of all denominations and churches pray for the lost that they may be saved. But probably some people would criticize this whole idea of penance/suffering/sacrifice to save sinners....they would say that our suffering is not needed because Christ suffered on the Cross for everyone already.

Well..this makes a lot of sense to me.. it's true that by His death, He saved the whole world. So how does our suffering contribute to God's plan of salvation? I really want to figure this out...maybe I'm just misunderstanding/missing something. I hope my post makes sense, lol."


Yes Christ has suffered for everyone, the whole world. But we must participate in His suffering also:



I now rejoice in my sufferings for you, and fill up in my flesh what is lacking in the afflictions of Christ, for the sake of His body, which is the church, of which I became a minister according to the stewardship from God which was given to me for you, to fulfill the word of God, the mystery which has been hidden from ages and from generations, but now has been revealed to His saints.

Salvation is born of a mystical relationship between God and humanity. God the word has partaken of humanity to effect our salvation. But we also must partake of divinity to be joined to Christ. Sharing in the sufferings of Christ is a part of theosis.

But suffering will not be the same for everyone. Obviously the martyrs suffered in a particular way we all are not called to. But we all are called to mourn ceaselessly for the world for "Blessed are those who mourn." We all are called to serve and give sacrificially which is a kind of suffering to our "old man," the fallen nature.

M.

[Rowan]

Here's an article on "filling what is lacking":

http://www.oca.org/CHRIST-life-article.asp?SID=6&ID=62&MONTH=July&YEAR=2004

[buzuxi02]

:wave: Hello everyone, I asked two questions over at the Catholic forum..and I'm wondering what the Orthodox response would be, so I'm going to ask them here too.

Here was my original post:


I was thinking that maybe when we honour Mary, we're actually honouring Jesus, because we don't honour her for her own sake. She is special because she is His mother..you see? Does this make sense? But I want to understand this more and a part of me is still skeptical. I guess a "Protestant reply" would be that God would only ask devotion to Himself...which actually makes a lot of sense, and is Biblical...so how is devotion to Mary explained? Maybe we honour God in a special way by honouring Mary? I hope there's an answer for this.

Thanks!!

monica
You pretty much answered the question on Mary with the above. In Orthodoxy the Icon of the Hodegetria is the most popular icon. Its the icon of the Virgin Mary holding the infant Jesus and pointing towards him. The word Hodegetria means "Wayshower" another words "She who shows the Way" by pointing to Her Son. In Orthodoxy Mary is never depicted by herself but always with her Son.

Many of the hymns and fest days of the Theotokos took root after the council of Ephesus in 431 a.d.when Mary was given the dogmatic title of Theotokos. But this title is Christological not about mariology. The heresy it combatted (Nestorianism) taught that there were two Christs. There was the man Jesus born of Mary and there was the Logos-Spirit which entered the body of Christ as it pleased and left it as it pleased. For instance the divinity of Christ may have entered Jesus body at baptism then fled out of it at the crucifixion. Thus Jesus at times is a mere man and at the same times is a deity apart from the Child of Mary. Rendering the incarnation meaningless. Mary did not give birth to Jesus so his body can temporarily be used as a receptacle for the divine Logos for a few years. The divine Logos assumed flesh and humanity thru Mary and made it His very own.

By proclaiming Mary as Theotokos (God-bearer, Birthgiver of God, Mother of God) it means that God the Son came down from heaven and was truly incarnate by the Virgin Mary. Jesus Christ is one Hypostasis.The Logos came down from heaven and united himself with humanity in the Child of Mary and made this humanity his very own, without confusion, without mixture and inseperable, a single cohesive person.

So we honor Mary as the birthgiver of God in the flesh and the one who instructs us towards Christ. In the gospel of John, in the wedding feast at Cana. Mary asks her Son to make more wine for the guests. Thus she interceeds on our behalf and more importantly is her command (Jn 2.5): "His mother said to his servants,'Whatever He says to you, Do it!'

[Monica, child of God]

Monica,

Was any of this helpful?

M.

[MoNiCa4316]

You pretty much answered the question on Mary with the above. In Orthodoxy the Icon of the Hodegetria is the most popular icon. Its the icon of the Virgin Mary holding the infant Jesus and pointing towards him. The word Hodegetria means "Wayshower" another words "She who shows the Way" by pointing to Her Son. In Orthodoxy Mary is never depicted by herself but always with her Son.

Many of the hymns and fest days of the Theotokos took root after the council of Ephesus in 431 a.d.when Mary was given the dogmatic title of Theotokos. But this title is Christological not about mariology. The heresy it combatted (Nestorianism) taught that there were two Christs. There was the man Jesus born of Mary and there was the Logos-Spirit which entered the body of Christ as it pleased and left it as it pleased. For instance the divinity of Christ may have entered Jesus body at baptism then fled out of it at the crucifixion. Thus Jesus at times is a mere man and at the same times is a deity apart from the Child of Mary. Rendering the incarnation meaningless. Mary did not give birth to Jesus so his body can temporarily be used as a receptacle for the divine Logos for a few years. The divine Logos assumed flesh and humanity thru Mary and made it His very own.

By proclaiming Mary as Theotokos (God-bearer, Birthgiver of God, Mother of God) it means that God the Son came down from heaven and was truly incarnate by the Virgin Mary. Jesus Christ is one Hypostasis.The Logos came down from heaven and united himself with humanity in the Child of Mary and made this humanity his very own, without confusion, without mixture and inseperable, a single cohesive person.

So we honor Mary as the birthgiver of God in the flesh and the one who instructs us towards Christ. In the gospel of John, in the wedding feast at Cana. Mary asks her Son to make more wine for the guests. Thus she interceeds on our behalf and more importantly is her command (Jn 2.5): "His mother said to his servants,'Whatever He says to you, Do it!'

That makes a lot of sense! :thumbsup: I totally agree.
God bless

monica

[MoNiCa4316]

Here's an article on "filling what is lacking":

http://www.oca.org/CHRIST-life-article.asp?SID=6&ID=62&MONTH=July&YEAR=2004 (http://www.oca.org/CHRIST-life-article.asp?SID=6&ID=62&MONTH=July&YEAR=2004)

That's a great article, Rowan! :) I think that's a useful way to look at suffering...so often we complain about it (well I know I do..) but if that is a way to participate in Christ's suffering, I can see why St. Paul rejoiced in it, even though I find that very difficult to do.

God bless

monica

[MoNiCa4316]

Well, we don't fast to create suffering for ourselves. We fast in order to draw away from the world and as an aid in prayer. Most people learn to fast in community with common general rules. Making up ones own fasting rule is kind of individualistic and would not be recommended in our Church for various reasons.

The fasting is not an end in itself. The idea of causing oneself pain or discomfort is not a part of Orthodox Christianity. God does not need for us to fast or cause ourselves pain. He would rather that we persevere in this world with faith which will bring "natural" suffering as we mourn for the fallenness of creation and struggle against our flesh. We do not need to create suffering as this world has enough already.



Well this is kind of true:



The Body of Christ suffers in this world because it is not of this world. That is a part of our salvation which is a continual process until we fully brought into the age to come.

But the suffering of the apostles that Paul was refering to was not a self created suffering. It was a natural consequence of sharing the gospel in the fallen world aka the Roman Empire. We should expect suffering as we are being saved but we don't need to create it.



In a sense. God is mystically present in the Body of Christ. He is also mystically present in the poor. So when we leave our comfortable homes to be missionaries or even just to serve at our local homeless shelter, God uses that to change our hearts and to touch others.



Yes Christ has suffered for everyone, the whole world. But we must participate in His suffering also:



Salvation is born of a mystical relationship between God and humanity. God the word has partaken of humanity to effect our salvation. But we also must partake of divinity to be joined to Christ. Sharing in the sufferings of Christ is a part of theosis.

But suffering will not be the same for everyone. Obviously the martyrs suffered in a particular way we all are not called to. But we all are called to mourn ceaselessly for the world for "Blessed are those who mourn." We all are called to serve and give sacrificially which is a kind of suffering to our "old man," the fallen nature.

M.

Makes sense! :) I agree that fasting or suffering are not ends to themselves, but are for theosis. That is the only way it's meaningful.

(I see also what you're saying about fasting not being about pain, etc).

I don't think that we should cause ourselves pain to share in the Cross, but sometimes we have a choice between doing the right thing and suffering, or taking the easy way. And then, it's best to choose the former, of course. So..we don't create suffering for ourselves, but sometimes (not always, of course) we have a choice in how much we participate in it. One example would be willing to face persecution to further God's Kingdom.

God bless

monica

[MoNiCa4316]

Monica,

Was any of this helpful?

M.

Yes, very much so :)

[MoNiCa4316]

I was just wondering one thing, I totally agree that by suffering we share in Christ's suffering, and this has a role in theosis...as it says in the Bible, if we share in His suffering we will share in His joy also.

But I was thinking...does our suffering help others in any way? Kind of what I said in my OP... I can't really figure this out. For example, let's say you have a friend who really doesn't want to believe in God, and you're praying for them. Some people have said that it would be good to fast for them too. Now I see that the point of fasting is not pain, and I agree, but it is a sacrifice of a sort, because it's difficult. I mean it's a big effort sometimes because the flesh is weak as we know. Would this only help us focus on our prayers, or would it somehow demonstrate our love for this person and make it more likely for them to come to faith? I don't really have an opinion about this at the moment. I'm just trying to decide what to think here. :)

What I kinda mean is...I know that God wants to reconcile the whole world to Himself...but we also know that He wants us to ask for things, like peace in the world and mercy and salvation. In a way we participate in His plan when we pray for these things. And some have said that He shows even more mercy to the world when we sacrifice things in His name..like our own comfort or riches, for example. ..if we do this with love of course. I dont' really know what to think about this.

Any thoughts? :)

[Silentchapel]

As my spiritual father has said: "Pain is only useful as long as it makes us humble." So, pain has no salvific effect on its own, whereas Catholic doctrine of merits would see it as salvific. On the other hand, us 'doing things' in other people's name (like fasting, doing good deed and such) - well, I would see it as a prayer for them. It maybe isn't vocal prayer, but it's a prayer.

[nestoj]

I've always seen the churches (building) as such - a prayer of stone. It glorifies God and serves the people.

God helps

[Lukaris]

Your questions are entirely understandable & reasonable. I wish I could adequately respond but in the Apology of (St.) Aristedes the Philosopher (ca.125) he states to the emporer Hadrian, "And to me there is no doubt that the earth abides through the supplication of the Christians." That was his summation of the prayers, fasting, & alms givings done by the Christians he observed & he was later moved to become a Christian. I hope this is of some help.

[Mary of Bethany]

I was just wondering one thing, I totally agree that by suffering we share in Christ's suffering, and this has a role in theosis...as it says in the Bible, if we share in His suffering we will share in His joy also.

But I was thinking...does our suffering help others in any way? Kind of what I said in my OP... I can't really figure this out. For example, let's say you have a friend who really doesn't want to believe in God, and you're praying for them. Some people have said that it would be good to fast for them too. Now I see that the point of fasting is not pain, and I agree, but it is a sacrifice of a sort, because it's difficult. I mean it's a big effort sometimes because the flesh is weak as we know. Would this only help us focus on our prayers, or would it somehow demonstrate our love for this person and make it more likely for them to come to faith? I don't really have an opinion about this at the moment. I'm just trying to decide what to think here. :)

What I kinda mean is...I know that God wants to reconcile the whole world to Himself...but we also know that He wants us to ask for things, like peace in the world and mercy and salvation. In a way we participate in His plan when we pray for these things. And some have said that He shows even more mercy to the world when we sacrifice things in His name..like our own comfort or riches, for example. ..if we do this with love of course. I dont' really know what to think about this.

Any thoughts? :)

Good question! All I can think of is that it goes hand in hand with the mystery of prayer itself. Why does God ask us to pray for each other, or to pray at all, since He is not a genie that does our bidding, and we do not change His mind, or know better than He what is good and right. It must be that these offerings of prayer and fasting, whether for ourselves or others, if done with love and humility, change us and change the world around us in ways we cannot fathom.

:scratch:

Mary