Joining the church! [Archive]

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BabyLutheran

21st January 2008, 02:56 PM

RegularGuy

21st January 2008, 03:04 PM

ELCA purists are happy!

Congratulations on finding a Church home...and my prayers are with you.

LilLamb219

21st January 2008, 03:26 PM

What's a purist?

It's always a happy event when you find a place that God has led you to!

BabyLutheran

21st January 2008, 03:50 PM

What's a purist?

It's always a happy event when you find a place that God has led you to!
I was thinking the other synods had a much longer process, that's all...lol!

Tofferer

21st January 2008, 08:47 PM

I know the purists may not be so happy, but my wife and I are attending the new member class at St Michael Lutheran Church (ELCA) in Virginia Beach this weekend. If all goes well we will be on our way to joining the congregation! :)
Ok, so you've chosen the ELCA. Just make certain that you get plugged into the WordAlone Network. I am certain that WordAlone would love to have more people on thier side.

BabyLutheran

21st January 2008, 08:56 PM

I will check into WordAlone.

Our congregation seems pretty conservative. In the sermon, the pastor implored us to consume the body and blood of Jesus for our spiritual well being, and he said it several times. Not once implying that it was a symbol.

Tofferer

21st January 2008, 09:10 PM

I will check into WordAlone.

Good. There are a considerable number of problems that the ELCA is coping with, many of which are due to the poor way in which the ALC/LCA merger was managed back in the 1980's. I know many good people who are part of WordAlone. Of course some of them have expressed concerns with whether or not WordAlone will be able to do anything, given the type of power ELCA bishops tend to leverage. I am one who left the ELCA, so I do know of what I speak.

Aibrean

21st January 2008, 10:38 PM

IowaLutheran

21st January 2008, 10:40 PM

Welcome, BabyLutheran!

Willy

21st January 2008, 10:45 PM

It really isn't necessary for you to check out Word Alone.

BabyLutheran

21st January 2008, 10:45 PM

I don't think any Lutheran believes that the sacrament of communion is a symbol.
Oh, I thought that was happening at some congregations, sorry for my ignorance.

seajoy

21st January 2008, 10:58 PM

It really isn't necessary for you to check out Word Alone.
Why are you steering him away from there?

DaRev

21st January 2008, 11:12 PM

I don't think any Lutheran believes that the sacrament of communion is a symbol.

Actually, there are ELCA pastors who teach that one does not need to believe in the Real Presence. This makes sense when you consider their altar fellowship with Reformed church bodies.

Aibrean

21st January 2008, 11:20 PM

DaRev...that's why I put think...you can never really know :)

RevCowboy

22nd January 2008, 04:05 AM

Oh, I thought that was happening at some congregations, sorry for my ignorance.

No Pastor would have passed colloquy if they believed communion is symbolic. And no Pastor should be openly teaching anything but the real presence.

As far as Word Alone, they may have some valid criticisms of what some are doing in the Church. However, we have similar groups in Canada, and I simply cannot abide by their methods and tactics. While they may not be explicit about it, their aim is for a possible split in the church and they also seek to undermine the Churches authority from afar rather than working for reforms within. And just to be fair, there are "liberal" groups doing pretty much the same thing, such as Lutherans Concerned. I am equally frustrated by both groups and their polarizing behaviours.

I agree with Willy, perhaps for different reasons, stay away from Word Alone and Lutherans Concerned until you a have sense of your congregation and a sense of the history of the ELCA. So in other words, just be a a guy in the congregation for a few years before getting involved in church politics. You don't need to and probably don't want to have to wade through the messes of the ELCA while you journey towards Lutheranism. There is some friendly "pastoral" advice for you.

seajoy

22nd January 2008, 10:40 AM

But shouldn't a person know what he is joining before he joins it?

BabyLutheran

22nd January 2008, 10:50 AM

I am joining the local church for now, I will worry about the politics and debates later...lol

RevCowboy

22nd January 2008, 06:53 PM

But shouldn't a person know what he is joining before he joins it?

Precisely! Get to know the your local, synodical or district and national church before getting involved with special interest groups that have a certain view on how things should be. Like I said, these groups have some valid criticisms. But their focus is usually on the problems. I don't think the first thing that a new member should have to focus on is the problems of their new church body.

Aibrean

22nd January 2008, 10:05 PM

Well our new member class at our church goes into details about the synod and the church itself so taking the class anyway is good :)

RadMan

22nd January 2008, 10:30 PM

rather than working for reforms withinSo who is working from within and how are they doing it?. And how do you know someone is doing something besides these 2 groups?

Tofferer

22nd January 2008, 10:36 PM

It really isn't necessary for you to check out Word Alone.
Really? Then you probably are unaware of the issues here. I have watched ELCA bishops force churches to shut down for no reason other than to sell the property to the highest bidder. If you don't believe me, ask anyone who was ever associated with Luther Memorial in Tacoma. Check out the WordAlone website, and then guess as to why I left the ELCA.

BabyLutheran

22nd January 2008, 10:38 PM

I am listening to everyone, but I really didn't want a synod debate here. Like I said, my church seems pretty solid and conservative. I will pass judgment on ELCA and just concentrate on the local body. I am just excited to be feeling Christ in my life again. He never gave up on me, and I want to return the favor a million times over.

DaRev

22nd January 2008, 10:50 PM

Really? Then you probably are unaware of the issues here. I have watched ELCA bishops force churches to shut down for no reason other than to sell the property to the highest bidder. If you don't believe me, ask anyone who was ever associated with Luther Memorial in Tacoma. Check out the WordAlone website, and then guess as to why I left the ELCA.

WordAlone didn't leave the ELCA. They are a part of the ELCA and from what I understand, are looking to become a non-geographical synod within the ELCA like the Zion Slovak synod is.

RadMan

22nd January 2008, 10:55 PM

WordAlone didn't leave the ELCA. They are a part of the ELCA and from what I understand, are looking to become a non-geographical synod within the ELCA like the Zion Slovak synod is.Toff didn't say WordAlone left ELCA

DaRev

22nd January 2008, 11:00 PM

Toff didn't say WordAlone left ELCA

Oops! My bad. I misread his post.

As Emily Litella would say, "Nevermind." :)

ricker

23rd January 2008, 12:28 AM

Really? Then you probably are unaware of the issues here. I have watched ELCA bishops force churches to shut down for no reason other than to sell the property to the highest bidder. If you don't believe me, ask anyone who was ever associated with Luther Memorial in Tacoma. Check out the WordAlone website, and then guess as to why I left the ELCA.

I have read our church constitution and I believe if there is a 2/3 majority voting for it, the congregation can leave the synod, keeping the property.

BTW, I get sick of all the ELCA bashing that goes on in this forum, that is why I don't post here much. Real Christlike, folks. This is purely circumstantial, but I have never met an ELCA pastor that didn't believe in the Real Presence.
God bless! Ricker

DaRev

23rd January 2008, 12:43 AM

I have read our church constitution and I believe if there is a 2/3 majority voting for it, the congregation can leave the synod, keeping the property.

If I understand the policy correctly, there has to be two 2/3 majority votes by the congregation with a "pep talk" by the synodical bishop in between the two votes. I'm curious what the circumstances are that would allow a congregation to keep their property since most are not allowed to.

maylor

23rd January 2008, 12:45 AM

I am just excited to be feeling Christ in my life again. He never gave up on me, and I want to return the favor a million times over.

It is a great feeling to find a church home! I've been a member of my church for less than a year. I've never been so excitied about my Faith and going to church in my life! I'm really looking forward to going to the additional wednesday evening services for Lent.

May the Lord Jesus Christ draw your family ever nearer to Him through this church He has led you to!

IowaLutheran

23rd January 2008, 12:53 AM

If I understand the policy correctly, there has to be two 2/3 majority votes by the congregation with a "pep talk" by the synodical bishop in between the two votes. I'm curious what the circumstances are that would allow a congregation to keep their property since most are not allowed to.

http://www.elca.org/secretary/constitutions/congregations/index.html

Chapter 7.
PROPERTY OWNERSHIP
*C7.01. If this congregation ceases to exist, title to undisposed property shall pass to the (insert name of synod) Synod of the Evangelical Lutheran Church in America.
*C7.02. If this congregation is removed from membership in the Evangelical Lutheran Church in America according to its procedure for discipline, title to property shall continue to reside in this congregation.
*C7.03. If a two-thirds majority of the voting members of this congregation present at a legally called and conducted special meeting of this congregation vote to transfer to another Lutheran church body, title to property shall continue to reside in this congregation. Before this congregation takes action to transfer to another Lutheran church body, it shall consult with representatives of the (insert name of synod) Synod.
*C7.04. If a two-thirds majority of the voting members of this congregation present at a legally called and conducted special meeting of this congregation vote to become independent or relate to a non-Lutheran church body, title to property of this congregation shall continue to reside in this congregation only with the consent of the Synod Council. The Synod Council, after consultation with this congregation by the established synodical process, may give approval to the request to become independent or to relate to a non-Lutheran church body, in which case title shall remain with the majority of this congregation. If the Synod Council fails to give such approval, title shall remain with those members who desire to continue as a congregation of the Evangelical Lutheran Church in America.
[1] (http://christianforums.com/#_ftnref1) This provision is to be used in the constitutions of all congregations that formerly were a part of the Lutheran Church in America, in accord with provision 9.62.h. in the Constitution, Bylaws, and Continuing Resolutions of the Evangelical Lutheran Church in America.

[2] (http://christianforums.com/#_ftnref2) This provision is to be used in the constitutions of all congregations that formerly were a part of the Lutheran Church in America, in accord with provision 9.62.h. in the Constitution, Bylaws, and Continuing Resolutions of the Evangelical Lutheran Church in America.

DaRev

23rd January 2008, 01:05 AM

KimLCMS

23rd January 2008, 01:36 AM

May God bless you and your family, BabyLutheran.

IowaLutheran

23rd January 2008, 09:16 AM

I've had that policy explained to me by two different ELCA pastors; a 2/3 majority vote of the congregation, a congregational meeting with the bishop, and then a second 2/3 majority vote. Did they have it right? Could it be a synod by synod policy?

I think a church near me also had two separate votes when they left the ELCA for the LCMC, so I think they're right. What I posted was the Model Constitution for congregations drafted by the office of the ELCA Secretary - not sure how many congregations have actually used it.

ricker

23rd January 2008, 10:27 AM

I've had that policy explained to me by two different ELCA pastors; a 2/3 majority vote of the congregation, a congregational meeting with the bishop, and then a second 2/3 majority vote. Did they have it right? Could it be a synod by synod policy?
I think this quoted passage is from a standard form given by the ELCA. I really don't know more than that. Thankfully our church is in no such dilemma.
God bless! Ricker

Edial

23rd January 2008, 02:25 PM

Bless you, man.
I would have been happy for you if you would have joined any synod.

And please, please, ignore politics unless they stare you in the face.

Also, the church is a local congregation, people with whom you worship every Sunday and pastor who leads it.

The church is NOT a synod. These are politics.

As you already know, the debates concerning synods start at a pindrop.

Thanks, :)
Ed

RegularGuy

23rd January 2008, 04:09 PM

BabyLutheran

23rd January 2008, 04:23 PM

Thanks Ed and Regular Guy!

It takes a pindrop to start an argument??? Doesn't seem like it even takes that much.

RevCowboy

23rd January 2008, 04:48 PM

I've had that policy explained to me by two different ELCA pastors; a 2/3 majority vote of the congregation, a congregational meeting with the bishop, and then a second 2/3 majority vote. Did they have it right? Could it be a synod by synod policy?

You are right about this.

We have had two churches in our area vote on this. Both passed their first vote. And then the obligatory 90 days between with a visit from the Synodical Bishop. After the visit of Bishop, one still voted to leave and the other voted to stay.

Its in in the constitution but the bylaws this process, here is the ELCIC's version (which should be identical to the ELCA's).

Section 4. A congregation considering dissolution of its organization shall confer with the bishop of the synod before any formal steps are taken leading to such action.
Section 5. A congregation desiring to sever its relationship with this church shall require a two-thirds majority vote at any legally called and conducted meeting. Such a decision shall not be effective until at least ninety days after the bishop of the synod has been notified and until the initial action has been ratified by a two-thirds majority vote at a subsequent legally called and conducted meeting.