How do you feel about saying "God loves you," to a non Christian?

[bigsierra]

I started thinking about this when I heard a sermon from RC Sproul on God's particular love.

[II Paradox II]

I started thinking about this when I heard a sermon from RC Sproul on God's particular love.
I have no problem saying it. God loves his elect *differently* than His non-elect, but He still loves them.

Historically speaking, predestinarians in the western church (Augustine, Aquinas, Duns Scotus, etc...) made an argument very similar to this in explaining why one person is saved and another not (or why one person is more virtuous than another). They usually predicated the difference on the predilection (preference) for one person or another. In other words, by God's mercy and love to certain *individuals*, they are elevated above others who are still loved, but objectively less than the elect. In this love they are granted regeneration, everyday sacramental graces and the grace of final perseverence (using the more Catholic terminology).

You will find some Reformed who deny that God loves the non-elect, but at least for me, I am not one of them. God expresses his love to the non-elect in His patience towards them, the blessings He gives them that should lead to their repentence, the rain he gives to the good and bad etc, etc...

ken

[bigsierra]

I understand there is general grace to all(I think that's the theological term).

What if the non-Christian asks how much God loves him?
What if they ask if God is pursuing them for salvation?

[WashedClean]

I started thinking about this when I heard a sermon from RC Sproul on God's particular love.
Great question! I have a license plate frame that says "Smile, God Loves You". I got this before I became a Calvinist. But I agree with II Paradox II. God loves everyone. As to how much, even for the non-elect, it has to be more than we can imagine. For God IS love. So I guess if a non-Christian asked how much God loves them, I would tell them "more than you'll ever know".

As to your second question about whether God is pursuing them for salvation, I think if a person is even asking this, then the answer is probably "yes". However, God's sovereign will always comes to pass, so they can rest assured that they will be saved if it's God's will. I'm not so sure I would tell them this though.

Hope this helps. Great thread.

WashedClean

[II Paradox II]

I understand there is general grace to all(I think that's the theological term).
The usual term is common grace.

What if the non-Christian asks how much God loves him?
God loves Him enough to give him the blessings of this life. He also loves them enough to send people to tell him of God's love.

What if they ask if God is pursuing them for salvation?
God is pursuing those whom He desires to persue and He does not tell us who they are. If someone asked me that question though, I'd say yes... the kindness and patience of God towards you should lead you to repentence (romans 2:4). God is showing you the path of salvation through his creation, through people around you and through His scriptures.

ken

[bigsierra]

I noticed that I would hide my theology when evangelizing as well, as a Calvinist. It became more difficult if they knew Calvinist doctrine and asked pointed questions. It really became hard if they were a theology major, of the Calvinist order and had rejected Christianity.

[II Paradox II]

I noticed that I would hide my theology when evangelizing as well, as a Calvinist. It became more difficult if they knew Calvinist doctrine and asked pointed questions. It really became hard if they were a theology major, of the Calvinist order and had rejected Christianity.
I wouldn't say we hide it. God does love every man to some degree but He loves others more. Since I can't know in advance who that is I just tell them what I do know (the ways God loves every man).

ken

[bigsierra]

I brought up the theology student, since I had actually run into that situation.

You both said you would answer "yes" to the question about God pursuing them even though you don't really know. Would you really feel like you were being honest with them?
If after you said yes, what if they said, "are you sure God's pursuing me?"

[II Paradox II]

I brought up the theology student, since I had actually run into that situation.

I've had the same situation several times (not just with ex-calvie's though, but other types of ex-christians with a fair amount of theological background)

You both said you would answer "yes" to the question about God pursuing them even though you don't really know. Correction - you don't know to what extent He is pursuing them. God is clearly reaching out to His creation in love and doing things that should lead them to repentence.

Would you really feel like you were being honest with them?
If after you said yes, what if they said, "are you sure God's pursuing me?" Yes, I would. I don't know if they are elect, but I do know God is reaching out to them inHis kindness and patience for them to repent.

Ultimately, one must choose on whom the burden of salvation rests or else embrace a contraditiction and say we both are in equal measure. If you say that God loves everyone equally, what is it in you that is better than say, my parents (who are not christian) such that you get salvation and they don't (people whom God loves equally as you)? Are you wiser (thus making salvation depend on man's wisdom), are you smarter (thus making salvation depend on man's intellignece), are you more righteous (thus making salvation depend on man's works), or are you more virtuous in some other sense (thus making salvation hinge on this other virtue)?

ken

ken

[theseed]

I noticed that I would hide my theology when evangelizing as well, as a Calvinist. It became more difficult if they knew Calvinist doctrine and asked pointed questions. It really became hard if they were a theology major, of the Calvinist order and had rejected Christianity.
I'm about to post a devotion about evangelism and how it relates to Ezekiel 37. I think you could benefit from it. :)

[theseed]

I started thinking about this when I heard a sermon from RC Sproul on God's particular love.
I would tell anyone that God loves them, and if they love God back then I know I was right.

1 John 4:19 (http://www.biblegateway.com/cgi-bin/bible?passage=1JOHN+4:19&language=english&version=NIV&showfn=on&showxref=on)
We love because he first loved us.


The offer of the Gospel is universal, whosoever may believe and be saved. God stops no one from comming to Him, but enables only some. This is a hard saying :cry: But I've seen God's Providence working in my life since I was a kid, so that I may be blessed from his purpose :prayer:

So since God does not stop anyone from comming to him, we can be sure that his blood does atone for all peoples sins, everwhere, without exception.

At any given time, they may come to Christ. Unfortunately, they all refuse because they are totally depraved. So God quickens some, so that they may partake in the Sacrifice of Christ and figurately eat his flesh and blood.

So, God did love the whole world, but he ony gave his Son to save believers, whom he transforms out of depraved sinners.

Does this make sense?

[theseed]

If anyone rejects the offer of Salvation in Christ, then they reject God's love for them. And God will judge them according to thier deeds (Heb. 9.27)

[bigsierra]

Thank you for your responses. God is indeed sovereign. It can be frustrating at times being a witness, no matter what the "Christian" banner is over your head. The good thing is that God is bigger than our weaknesses when it comes to preaching the Gospel.

As St. Francis of Assisi said
Preach the Gospel at all times! If necessary use words.

Thank God for excellent preachers and teachers of the faith, such as D James Kennedy and RC Sproul. Kennedy for making witnesses of the early Americans, to this generation and Sproul for revealing the Holiness and sovereignty of God.

[cygnusx1]

I don't see a problem telling people God Loves them .......He may not save them but whose fault is that?

[Reformationist]

You will find some Reformed who deny that God loves the non-elect, but at least for me, I am not one of them. God expresses his love to the non-elect in His patience towards them, the blessings He gives them that should lead to their repentence, the rain he gives to the good and bad etc, etc...

ken
I do not personally take issue with making such a claim because I seek to view all people I encounter as the elect of God and leave it to them to show whether that is true. I do not agree with Ken regarding God's disposition towards those He has not chosen unto Himself, mainly because I believe He makes His feelings known and they are not actions of love. I do not equate the longsuffering of God on behalf of His flock He has yet to gather unto Himself with a disposition of love for those He is longsuffering toward and, therefore, feel no need to assume this merits an admission of love for those God has not chosen. I merely acknowledge that because God loves His elect, and only His elect, even those who have yet to be gathered, He is merciful towards the reprobate, even enduring their endless despising of Him that He may make known the riches of His mercy upon all His elect.

God bless

[Reformationist]

What if the non-Christian asks how much God loves him?
Well, being that we do not have a knowledge of who is God's elect we can only assume that they are His chosen and, if so, that they are loved with the love God has for His Son.

What if they ask if God is pursuing them for salvation?
God does not "pursue" anyone. He saves. "Pursuit" implies the possibility of failure. If God has elected someone for salvation then they will be saved, according to the will and work of God.

God bless

[Reformationist]

I wouldn't say we hide it. God does love every man to some degree but He loves others more. Since I can't know in advance who that is I just tell them what I do know (the ways God loves every man).

kenWhile I certainly agree that God is merciful to all mankind to some degree I am curious what leads you to the belief that God "loves every man to a certain degree."

Let me clarify that I understand the "love" of God to be His actions toward the recipients of His grace. Therefore, using that definition I can say that there are actions of God which may seem loving but we must also consider the desired result of those actions. If the desired result is not to lead them to repentence then is the action truly "loving?" I would have to say not.

God bless

[Reformationist]

So since God does not stop anyone from comming to him, we can be sure that his blood does atone for all peoples sins, everwhere, without exception.
Come on seed. This is not a reformed sentiment, nor does it make any sense regarding the definition of "atonement." If an atonement has been made by Christ for the sins of all then why is it that some people still go to hell?

At any given time, they may come to Christ. Unfortunately, they all refuse because they are totally depraved. So God quickens some, so that they may partake in the Sacrifice of Christ and figurately eat his flesh and blood.

So, God did love the whole world, but he ony gave his Son to save believers, whom he transforms out of depraved sinners.

Does this make sense?
Unfortunately, no. It doesn't make any sense. Sure, you maintain the reformed approach to depraved man's need for the quickening work of the Lord but you make the work of Christ on the Cross of no consequence in the lives of so many whose sins have been atoned for. Why would God bruise His Son for sins that He knew would never actually be expiated? It was unnecessary and God is most infinitely logical in His plan. If we submit that Christ did, in fact, atone for the sins of all, then what must non-believers atone for on the day of reckoning? If you contend that it is these same sins for which Christ had already atoned then you make a mockery of God's judgment, claiming He unrighteously condemns for sins which have already been accounted for by the blood of Christ. If you contend that the application of the merit for Christ's atonement hinges on the appropriation by means of faith, and therefore, non-believers fail to avail themselves of Christ's positive merit then you do violence to the reformed understanding of God's sovereign purpose in the atonement.

If Christ atoned for the sins of all then why do some go to hell?

God bless

[Reformationist]

If anyone rejects the offer of Salvation in Christ, then they reject God's love for them. And God will judge them according to thier deeds (Heb. 9.27)
Seed, we are not saved because we accept an offer of salvation. We are saved because God monergistically works in us to create saving faith through His monergistic work of regeneration, thereby ensuring our salvation by faith, which He has given us. Rejecting the grace of God in His work of regeneration is not a biblical contention because regeneration is something that is done to us, not with us.

God bless