Have you ever been criticized by others for being Calvinists?

[theseed]

Have you ever been critized by others for thinking that God only choses some people to redeem form himself, and not all?

I imagine that some of my fellow S. Baptist fellows would not agree with that, even though, they believe OSAS. So I imagine if I shared my convictions, I would recieve criticism from some. However, i would point out that it is the SBC stance, and the traditional stance of the SBC, and the SBC big whigs.

One blessing though, about being Baptist, is that we believe that only God is Lord of the conscience, and we don't have to agree on every doctrine. Because we are all priestly believers.

[Bulldog]

Have you ever been critized by others for thinking that God only choses some people to redeem form himself, and not all?

Yes sir.

[Gabriel]

Yes, but I don't let it bother me. Something we need to remember is that God is sovereign. If He wanted them to understand it right now, they would. Nothing we say or do will convince them until He wants them to understand.

I was saved when I was in first grade. I was a Baptist Arminian until I was 31. No one ever told me about Reformed theology. I am as stubborn as they come and never like to admit I am wrong. Furthermore, I hate change. Can you imagine the struggle it was for me to change my whole theology? Suprise, it took about 5 minutes. Someone opened up their bible and pointed out Ephesians 1:4-14. God opened my heart and the beautiful truth poured in. Now I see it in every other verse. After all it is apparent throughout for those whom God has revealed it to. Don't sweat them. God has plans for them and they will understand in His time.

[LynneClomina]

yes, almost all the time. i know much of the leadership in my church is calvy, but for some reason it isnt explicitly taught, so much of the congregation gets alot of their theological ideas from books.... and of course, they are convinced they are right and i'm whacko. :sigh:

[Cal]

I always look at the criticism Jesus took for being and preaching the same:

And He was saying, "For this reason I have said to you, that no one can come to Me unless it has been granted him from the Father."

As a result of this many of His disciples withdrew and were not walking with Him anymore. JOH 6:65-66

[theseed]

Yes, but I don't let it bother me. Something we need to remember is that God is sovereign. If He wanted them to understand it right now, they would. Nothing we say or do will convince them until He wants them to understand.
That does not mean we should take a passive approach, Christ told us to make disciples of all nations. So, our teaching could be the way God opens somone's mind.

We are warned against thinking about fatalism in Romans 9, and God still holds us responsible for everthing thing we do--even though he is Soveriegn Lord.

[Gabriel]

I never said to be passive. Teach and preach the Word, but to constantly engage in debate with the stiff necked is a waste of time.

[II Paradox II]

Have you ever been critized by others for thinking that God only choses some people to redeem form himself, and not all?
I don't tend to get a lot of it, but I see a lot of it around. Holding to any sort of predestinarian scheme will definitely not win you many friends.

ken

[oworm]

....................... but to constantly engage in debate with the stiff necked is a waste of time.
Yes, and it usually ends up in a heated war of words in which there are no winners.

[theseed]

I never said to be passive. Teach and preach the Word, but to constantly engage in debate with the stiff necked is a waste of time.
yes, we should avoid "vain babblings"

[Beoga]

i usually get a lot of-
what is calvinism and arminianism? or what is reformed theology?
but from the people who know the difference (like 4 people that i know), i get a lot of flack for believing in it.

[Knight]

Criticized? No. Questioned? Yes.

I can't say as I've ever outright convinced someone of the truth of RT. (As someone already said, that's God's job) I have, I think, given people cause to think.

Bottom Line:
If you study Theology enough then at some point you're going to have to deal with the concept of predestination. The Bible plainly teaches it. You may arrive at different conclusions based on any presuppositions but you will have to deal with it.

[Donny_B]

The WCF states "the doctrine of this high mystery of predestination is to be handled with special prudence and care" and I think this is where many have failed in proclaiming it and thus have offended some. Peter said that certain things that Paul proclaimed in his epistles were "hard to be understood":

15 And account that the longsuffering of our Lord is salvation; even as our beloved brother Paul also according to the wisdom given unto him hath written unto you;
16 As also in all his epistles, speaking in them of these things; in which are some things hard to be understood, which they that are unlearned and unstable wrest, as they do also the other scriptures, unto their own destruction.
17 Ye therefore, beloved, seeing ye know these things before, beware lest ye also, being led away with the error of the wicked, fall from your own stedfastness. II Peter 3:15-17

...and I think the mystery of predestination is one of them. We shouldn't be arrogant in proclaiming it, and it shouldn't be used in such a way as to hinder the spreading of the Gospel and offend other believers. We should proclaim it rather in such a way as to give comfort and assurance to the believer.

[theseed]

Criticized? No. Questioned? Yes.

I can't say as I've ever outright convinced someone of the truth of RT. (As someone already said, that's God's job) I have, I think, given people cause to think.

Bottom Line:
If you study Theology enough then at some point you're going to have to deal with the concept of predestination. The Bible plainly teaches it. You may arrive at different conclusions based on any presuppositions but you will have to deal with it.
Yes you do.

[Knight]

Here's a related question.....

Why is it that some people feel the need to attack RT at every and any opportunity. I've seen this recently and it always seems to be in one direction. Meaning you rarely see a Calvinist "attack" an Arminist for his/her beliefs. I say rarely only because I have never seen it. I'm quite sure that it has happened. It just seems rather one-sided lately.

[BBAS 64]

Good Day, All

Attacked personally no, being a infant Calvinist can be hard with in the church I now attend. The Calvinist Doctrine of TULIP is often put on display and incorrectly understood and explained.

Most people can not understand the real differnce between Hyper and the true Biblical Doctrines of Calvinism. I do not take them as attacks, more like a lack of understanding and a leaning towards one's own traditions and the inabilty to deal with the issuse in an honest manner.

For His Glory Alone!:clap:

Bill

P.S- Where is Don?

[Cal]

Here's a related question.....

Why is it that some people feel the need to attack RT at every and any opportunity. I've seen this recently and it always seems to be in one direction. Meaning you rarely see a Calvinist "attack" an Arminist for his/her beliefs. I say rarely only because I have never seen it. I'm quite sure that it has happened. It just seems rather one-sided lately.
I think it is as John Owen so aptly put it. Sin is so great in man that he will not be removed as sovereign, he will rule!

[Knight]

P.S- Where is Don?
No clue but I heard that he got fed up with the attitudes of some people here and left for awhile.

I can definately understand his feelings..... :sigh:

[II Paradox II]

Meaning you rarely see a Calvinist "attack" an Arminist for his/her beliefs. I say rarely only because I have never seen it. I'm quite sure that it has happened. It just seems rather one-sided lately.
You don't because there is no emotional challenge to Arminian thought. That is not meant as a slam, but in this sense: Any predestinarian system has to justify the emotionally difficult idea that ultimate justice is in some way either beyond our comprehension or less than what we would expect (I take the first option). In arminian thought, you don't have this moral/metaphysical crisis, therefore you have a much more emotionally reassuring position.

After all, seeing everyone as totally (or at least more...) free and responsible for their own decisions makes the idea of judgment go down much easier. Of course, Arminianism still has problems with justice (such as - why would God create people he knew would be in hell if He had the power not to?), but those problems are not so viscerally problematic nor so up front.

ken

[Knight]

I always find RT to me the more reassuring position since I'm 100% grateful that my salvation totally does NOT depend on me. I'd screw it up in a heartbeat. ;)

It just seems that lately there are some who are taking every opportunity (or manufacturing opportunities) to take pot-shots at RT. It's sad if you ask me.....

[II Paradox II]

I always find RT to me the more reassuring position since I'm 100% grateful that my salvation totally does NOT depend on me. I'd screw it up in a heartbeat. ;)
In that sense, Calvinism is more reassuring. In the sense I was talking about, it isn't.

It just seems that lately there are some who are taking every opportunity (or manufacturing opportunities) to take pot-shots at RT. It's sad if you ask me.....
I've seen it pretty bad on some other boards. I was at one where we had one guy who called us Devil Worshippers. Unfortunately, some of the other board members picked up his comments and it turned into a three week flame fest that almost got the board shut down permanently (it was a very intellectual board with a broad mix of Catholic, EO, Anglican, Lutheran and Reformed people).

ken

[Knight]

It's just been getting on my nerves lately..... (I think I'm starting to see why Don isn't around anymore.)

[bigsierra]

I think things are much better here, since PRE has been split up. I've seen post made in forums that never should have been there, that cause heat, but for the most part things seem to pretty good, these days.

Don't go anywhere guys.

[Knight]

As long as you avoid General Theology........

[bigsierra]

I avoid GA

[Knight]

I avoid GA
As do I (typically).

[theseed]

I always find RT to me the more reassuring position since I'm 100% grateful that my salvation totally does NOT depend on me. I'd screw it up in a heartbeat. ;)

It just seems that lately there are some who are taking every opportunity (or manufacturing opportunities) to take pot-shots at RT. It's sad if you ask me.....
Yes, some people make a hobby out of it. And some Calvinismt make a hobby out of calvinism :sorry:

[theseed]

I avoid GA
I' don't but I pick and chose my battles. I only argue the theology stuff which athiest think they know so much about.

[theseed]

No clue but I heard that he got fed up with the attitudes of some people here and left for awhile.

I can definately understand his feelings..... :sigh:
Well, Don is not the most charimatic person either. Sometimes he would not come off as so polite--telling people they earn thier salvation.

Don't get me wrong. I know Don does not mean to hurt anyone. But like us all, he is imperfect too.

I will admit that I have become inflammed and posted some things that were unChristlike--often going back and deleting them before the mods see it.

[Agent Spy]

I go to a school that's run by an Independent Baptist church... whooo it's a party during Bible class.

Teacher: "Well now you see there's this doctrine out there that you guys should stay away from, it's called 'Reformed Theology' and it's heresy!"
Me: *raises hand* "Uh.. sir.. I believe in that."
Teacher: "Oh. Well, you're wrong."


Anyway, a lot of kids don't know what Calvinism is. And there's a kid in our class who's family is from Armenia.. and they're always calling him an Arminian instead of an Armenian so I always feel like I hafta explain the difference. ;)

[ksen]

It's just been getting on my nerves lately..... (I think I'm starting to see why Don isn't around anymore.)
Maybe we just need some more Reformed Mods.....*hint*

[Gabriel]

I believe we have one or two more on the way.

[ksen]

I believe we have one or two more on the way.
That'll be nice.

I looked at your pic......I love it! :D

[Gabriel]

Thanks. Here's my all American family dressed for church. :D

[Grace_Alone4gives]

Yes, but I don't let it bother me. Something we need to remember is that God is sovereign. If He wanted them to understand it right now, they would. Nothing we say or do will convince them until He wants them to understand.

I was saved when I was in first grade. I was a Baptist Arminian until I was 31. No one ever told me about Reformed theology. I am as stubborn as they come and never like to admit I am wrong. Furthermore, I hate change. Can you imagine the struggle it was for me to change my whole theology? Suprise, it took about 5 minutes. Someone opened up their bible and pointed out Ephesians 1:4-14. God opened my heart and the beautiful truth poured in. Now I see it in every other verse. After all it is apparent throughout for those whom God has revealed it to. Don't sweat them. God has plans for them and they will understand in His time.not only did your change from Rminian to Calvinist...but Baptist to a padeo Presby - that is another biggy ;)

[rnmomof7]

Have you ever been critized by others for thinking that God only choses some people to redeem form himself, and not all?

I imagine that some of my fellow S. Baptist fellows would not agree with that, even though, they believe OSAS. So I imagine if I shared my convictions, I would recieve criticism from some. However, i would point out that it is the SBC stance, and the traditional stance of the SBC, and the SBC big whigs.

One blessing though, about being Baptist, is that we believe that only God is Lord of the conscience, and we don't have to agree on every doctrine. Because we are all priestly believers.

Some of the finest Calvinists I know are Baptists.

Have you ever read John Piper? He is my sons Baptist Pastor. Then there is always John Mac Arthur

Yes, I have been mocked , and belittled . But you know something? it is more important to rightly divide the word of God that to be universally loved.

I do not mean to be disrespectful to our fellow Christians, but I find that people that are devoted to the study of the word will come to Calvinism when it is taught to them.

Suddenly scripture we have always read past because it did not "fit" our doctrine jumps off the pages at us.

I had 5 Calvinists arguing Calvinism with me for 2 years , before I "got it"

One of them said he KNEW I would become a Calvinist because I loved the word of God.

Hang in and do your study. You will find that the entire bible teaches the sovereignty of God in the affairs of men

They really bless us when they mock


Mat 5:11 Blessed are ye, when [men] shall revile you, and persecute [you], and shall say all manner of evil against you falsely, for my sake.

Luk 6:22 Blessed are ye, when men shall hate you, and when they shall separate you [from their company], and shall reproach [you], and cast out your name as evil, for the Son of man's sake.

[steve@OU]

I am involved in Campus Crusade for Christ here at Ohio University and I get it all the time. The weird looks, sighs, stares, and quite often, the look of admiration for being "bold". Whatever happens, it's very interesting to be 1 of about 5-6 professing Calvinists in a movement of 500+ students.

It seems like every week I will have someone approach me, and out of the blue, ask me about Calvinism because they have "heard of me". Sometimes, it's a genuine question and others it's a "how can you believe..." In addition, others approach me about particular arminian speakers and ask me what I think. Those are special.

All in all, it's sort of fun. Our group of Calvinists enjoy the reputation that we have received (until we get labeled as a cult). I'm pretty thick skinned and all I can think about right now is studying a year outside the classroom with one of our philosophy professors who went to RTS.


Steve

[alaurie]

I'm pretty thick skinned and all I can think about right now is studying a year outside the classroom with one of our philosophy professors who went to RTS.


Steve

Prof's initials J. S. by any chance? If so, I know him from my Calvanist days. Brilliant guy if we're talking about the same person.

[alaurie]

Disregard the above post. I googled my old friend. He's teaching in Indiana.

[Beoga]

have you seen the christian teen section lately and the debate on predistination?

[CCWoody]

http://www.christianforums.com/images/icons/icon9.gif Have you ever been criticized by others for being Calvinists?

What are you talking about? We Calvinists are the most beloved creatures in church. Heretics especially love us. They actually look for ways to get more of us around.

So, you must be doing something wrong if you are being criticized. Perhaps it has something to do with the way you get out of bed in the morning. Please describe in detail what you are doing so we can correct your routine and make you lovable like the rest of us.

[theseed]

What are you talking about? We Calvinists are the most beloved creatures in church. Heretics especially love us. They actually look for ways to get more of us around.

So, you must be doing something wrong if you are being criticized. Perhaps it has something to do with the way you get out of bed in the morning. Please describe in detail what you are doing so we can correct your routine and make you lovable like the rest of us.
LOL!

[Beoga]

What are you talking about? We Calvinists are the most beloved creatures in church. Heretics especially love us. They actually look for ways to get more of us around.

So, you must be doing something wrong if you are being criticized. Perhaps it has something to do with the way you get out of bed in the morning. Please describe in detail what you are doing so we can correct your routine and make you lovable like the rest of us.


hahaha, yeah...

i want to live where you live

[Bro. Gabriel]

hahaha, yeah...

i want to live where you live

That's how it is where I live! Honestly!

(I live at SBTS in Louisville, KY) :D

[Beoga]

ok, i am moving there when i grow old and can make decisions :D

[nobdysfool]

I always find RT to me the more reassuring position since I'm 100% grateful that my salvation totally does NOT depend on me. I'd screw it up in a heartbeat. ;)

It just seems that lately there are some who are taking every opportunity (or manufacturing opportunities) to take pot-shots at RT. It's sad if you ask me.....
In a word, insecurity. RT makes them nervous, because at some level in their heart they have a witness from the Holy Spirit that they should listen, but they also have that other voice telling them that it is dangerous, don't pay attention, it's wrong....While I believe that satan can only do what God allows him to do (kind of like God's mad dog on a leash), I do believe that God allows satan to test and try Christians, and he would have a vested interest in trying to keep people away from the Reformed doctrines, because they expose him for what he is.

I engage regularly with an individual who absolutely hates Predestination and Election, and is constantly trying to disprove it, in favor of his own mish-mash of doctrines. I won't mention names, either of people or of doctrines, because you'd know exactly who I'm talking about. I find his hatred of those doctrines very curious, since they are taught in the Bible, and he claims to be fighting for the Truth...I think R.C. Sproul was right when he said that Arminians are saved by "felicitous inconsistency".

[SoldierofChrist]

Reformed Christians are the most feared by all unorthodox "Christian" groups. You simply cannot argue with Romans 8. It's fun to watch people attempt to theologically tap-dance around that chapter. The Bible speaks for itself... no questions asked. I think there is also a danger in Reformed theology in that it can make a stiff out of some of the most sensitive Christians. I think the Reformed concept of grace and mercy that God bestows on His children should make us the most loving of all Christians... especially to non-believers, and even more so to fellow Christians! But I love it nonetheless. It is after all, the plain reading of Scripture without presuppositions... other than that of the absolute holiness and justice of God combined with His everlasting love.

[A. believer]

Reformed Christians are the most feared by all unorthodox "Christian" groups. You simply cannot argue with Romans 8. It's fun to watch people attempt to theologically tap-dance around that chapter. The Bible speaks for itself... no questions asked. I think there is also a danger in Reformed theology in that it can make a stiff out of some of the most sensitive Christians. I think the Reformed concept of grace and mercy that God bestows on His children should make us the most loving of all Christians... especially to non-believers, and even more so to fellow Christians! But I love it nonetheless. It is after all, the plain reading of Scripture without presuppositions... other than that of the absolute holiness and justice of God combined with His everlasting love.
I'm a Calvinist myself, but perhaps we Calvinists would do well to humbly listen to some of the criticisms of non-Calvinists and see if some of them, at least, might not be warranted, and if so to repent. This response and some of the others on this thread sound fairly equivalent to the kinds of things I see Roman Catholics saying in the OBOB and other RC forums elsewhere. "Nevermind these 'anti-Catholics' (in the case of RCs) Arminians/semi-Pelagians, etc. (in our case) who just rail against the truth because they can't handle what it means for them. We're being persecuted for the truth." It's the same sentiment being expressed by people on opposite ends of the theological spectrum.

I don't advocate watering down theology in the least, but Calvinists in general have a reputation for arrogance, coldness, and any number of other unChristlike attitudes. I've seen those accusations directed toward people who, in my estimation, by no means deserve them, but I've also seen a disproportionate number of genuine examples of them, and no doubt I've been guilty of them myself at times.

[JM]

I'm attacked daily...

I tried to deny the title men give, 'Calvinist' but I don't care anymore. In the years I've been a Christian, nothing brings more trouble then admitting God's Grace.

[SoldierofChrist]

Wow, a KJV only Calvinist? That's very interesting. Might I suggest the KJV Only Controversy by James White -- a staunch highly respected Calvinist himself.

[5solas]

I know people over here in Switzerland who call Calvinists "disciples of satan" - a very sad thing indeed.
And they call themselves Christians. Being myself a Reformed Baptist is often very uncomfortable. Most Christians here are Arminians with a dispensational eschatology.

I am very glad that I found this forum and especially this thread. Thank God!

:wave:

TULIP :clap: :clap:

[oworm]

...................to constantly engage in debate with the stiff necked is a waste of time.
I like that. I may quote that one often and when im asked who i was quoting i will tell them "Oh it was Gabriel" Now that should really set tongues wagging lol

[blessedbe]

I always look at the criticism Jesus took for being and preaching the same:

And He was saying, "For this reason I have said to you, that no one can come to Me unless it has been granted him from the Father."

As a result of this many of His disciples withdrew and were not walking with Him anymore. JOH 6:65-66



I have to say, that's one of the many verses that did it for me! When Jesus himself says "no one comes to me unless it has been granted to him by My Father", how can you argue that?

Being a new Calvinist, when I read the bible now, verses jump out EVERYWHERE that prove it over and over again. I'm still not sure how I ever saw it any other way!
I can't say I've been "harassed" for it, but I haven't exactly come 'out of the closet' either...lol....I'm still so new at this, but let me tell you, the peace of mind I have is amazing! Also the new understanding of the bible when I read it. There are so many passages that I can actually read and understand instead of "ignoring" because is messed with my arminian teachings....

I can certainly understand how arminianism is easier to swallow though...I'm personally wrestling with the concept of Hell right now...at least the 'eternal' part....I never had that problem before....after all, it was our own 'fault' if we went there....

[cygnusx1]

I have to say, that's one of the many verses that did it for me! When Jesus himself says "no one comes to me unless it has been granted to him by My Father", how can you argue that?

Being a new Calvinist, when I read the bible now, verses jump out EVERYWHERE that prove it over and over again. I'm still not sure how I ever saw it any other way!
I can't say I've been "harassed" for it, but I haven't exactly come 'out of the closet' either...lol....I'm still so new at this, but let me tell you, the peace of mind I have is amazing! Also the new understanding of the bible when I read it. There are so many passages that I can actually read and understand instead of "ignoring" because is messed with my arminian teachings....

I can certainly understand how arminianism is easier to swallow though...I'm personally wrestling with the concept of Hell right now...at least the 'eternal' part....I never had that problem before....after all, it was our own 'fault' if we went there....Great post blessedbe , glad to have your company , I could well have written this post myself a few years ago ,as for the Hell thing , it remains the sinners entire fault that they go there. For their inability to believe is moral NOT physical .....read Pink on Man's depravity , an amazing book. You can get it online.

Also I have posted a short list of good books on Hell , what it is , Why ? and I hope this list will help you.....http://www.christianforums.com/t730153

God Bless you Sister.

Cygnus :wave:

[cajunhillbilly]

Hell is entirely our fault if we end up there. Heaven is entirely the result of God's grace alone. Both are true. God predistines the saved. The lost are lost because God leaves them in their sins. Entirely our fault.

[Irishcat922]

God is Sovereign, man is responsible!

[Zorobabel]

Yeah, I've received criticism for believing in the sovereignty of God. It started where I grew up; an area where Southern Baptists had much sway. It continued as I reluctantly attended a fundamentalist GARBC Bapist Bible college. The clarity of scriptures on the issue could be no greater, and yet man is always determined to replace the simple truth with the hopes of the fallen flesh.

[Beoga]

I have to say, that's one of the many verses that did it for me! When Jesus himself says "no one comes to me unless it has been granted to him by My Father", how can you argue that?

Being a new Calvinist, when I read the bible now, verses jump out EVERYWHERE that prove it over and over again. I'm still not sure how I ever saw it any other way!
I can't say I've been "harassed" for it, but I haven't exactly come 'out of the closet' either...lol....I'm still so new at this, but let me tell you, the peace of mind I have is amazing! Also the new understanding of the bible when I read it. There are so many passages that I can actually read and understand instead of "ignoring" because is messed with my arminian teachings....

I can certainly understand how arminianism is easier to swallow though...I'm personally wrestling with the concept of Hell right now...at least the 'eternal' part....I never had that problem before....after all, it was our own 'fault' if we went there....

very cool. yeah, i hear ya with the Scripture passages. When I started study the doctrines of calvinism and stuff a couple of months ago, there were so many verses that I could not explain away. Now so many scripture verses jump out at me and it is wonderful.

[Beoga]

don't know how relevant this is but i thought this was funny, yet sad at the same time. Ok, so i posted the lyrics to arminian grace on my livejournal site thingy so all my livejournal friends could read it, and my friend who now lives in texas responded with this:
"Hey Brian, I have been experiencing the Calvinism waves in my church and want to put a COMPLETE stop to it. So gimme all you got. All the scriptures, the quotes, your feelings. I've already researched it, but picking your brain for help is def. a good idea, thanks, love ya,
Heather"


this will be interesting, but it still sad to here people's reaction to the gospel.

[cygnusx1]

don't know how relevant this is but i thought this was funny, yet sad at the same time. Ok, so i posted the lyrics to arminian grace on my livejournal site thingy so all my livejournal friends could read it, and my friend who now lives in texas responded with this:
"Hey Brian, I have been experiencing the Calvinism waves in my church and want to put a COMPLETE stop to it. So gimme all you got. All the scriptures, the quotes, your feelings. I've already researched it, but picking your brain for help is def. a good idea, thanks, love ya,
Heather"


this will be interesting, but it still sad to here people's reaction to the gospel.
well my advice would be let heather have it ......give her such a powerful rendition that she drops her weapons........all in love of course! :wave:

[cygnusx1]

[QUOTE]
I know people over here in Switzerland who call Calvinists "disciples of satan" - a very sad thing indeed.
And they call themselves Christians. Being myself a Reformed Baptist is often very uncomfortable. Most Christians here are Arminians with a dispensational eschatology.
That is one of the saddest things I ever read! :cry:



I am very glad that I found this forum and especially this thread. Thank God!

:wave:

TULIP :clap: :clap:
That's cheered me up 5solas!! :hug:

[cajunhillbilly]

How can somone be agaisnt the grace of God?

[cygnusx1]

How can somone be agaisnt the grace of God?
Because they think grace is just a wishy washy kindness , then the Calvinist comes along and says it is By the Power of Grace through election that we are saved. :wave:

[blessedbe]

Hell is entirely our fault if we end up there. Heaven is entirely the result of God's grace alone. Both are true. God predistines the saved. The lost are lost because God leaves them in their sins. Entirely our fault.
God is Sovereign, man is responsible!

Both of these are soo true, and I think that people who are arminian don't get it when we Calvinists say this, because we are talking about the "big picture" here. Of course it's our fault, from the fall onward we were/are nothing but lovers of the flesh...but when arminians say it's our fault, they are talking individually, as if we could actually resist the Grace of God. The only way I can explain any person ignoring the gospel is to understand that God has not granted them the faith to believe yet, if ever. My sister-in-law is in this predicament right now. I pray every day that she become saved, but i know that if she does, it will be God's doing, because she IS searching right now, trying to find the "meaning" in her life. We have discussed christianity many times, and I am doing my best to show Christ to her...but it is ultimately up to God.

[LynneClomina]

here's a little tale...

adam and eve were on a boat, what a beautiful boat it was!
then they jumped overboard. the fall was really a jump, y'know. ;)

so they are swimming in the water, having babies in the water, and all the generations that followed were in the water because of what their ancestors adam and eve did.

and their entire lives spent working really hard to stay afloat and not drown.

then comes Christ, and He offers us a life-saver. tricky thing is, it's an underwater life-saver, and you have to allow yourself to drown and no longer work to stay afloat so that you can be saved by the life-saver of Jesus.

BUT, without goggles, you would never know the lifesaver was there!

so God gives us goggles of grace, so that we may see that there is salvation! and we can see the goodness of God! and it becomes the greatest desire in our heart, to get right with God and have relationship with Him.... and so we dive.

we want to dive!, we have to dive!, it is our entire purpose to dive!, and so we dive!!!!!

we dive so deep that there is no returning to the surface, and we die - to ourselves.