I think I wanna be left behind

[Cal]

"For as in those days before the flood they were eating and drinking, marrying and giving in marriage, until the day that Noah entered the ark, and they did not understand until the flood came and took them all away; so will the coming of the Son of Man be. Then there will be two men in the field; one will be taken and one will be left. Two women will be grinding at the mill; one will be taken and one will be left. MAT 24:38 -41

The Lord say's just like "the bad guys" were taken away in the days of Noah, "bad guys" will be taken away at the second coming.

[Donny_B]

I see it just the opposite.

Genesis say the ones inside the ark were "lift up above the earth"

And the flood was forty days upon the earth; and the waters increased, and bare up the ark, and it was lift up above the earth. Genesis 7:17

On the other hand, those outside the ark were left behind and destroyed:

22 All in whose nostrils was the breath of life, of all that was in the dry land, died.
23 And every living substance was destroyed which was upon the face of the ground, both man, and cattle, and the creeping things, and the fowl of the heaven; and they were destroyed from the earth: and Noah only remained alive, and they that were with him in the ark. Genesis 7:22-23

[Cal]

I see it just the opposite.

Genesis say the ones inside the ark were "lift up above the earth"

And the flood was forty days upon the earth; and the waters increased, and bare up the ark, and it was lift up above the earth. Genesis 7:17

On the other hand, those outside the ark were left behind and destroyed:

22 All in whose nostrils was the breath of life, of all that was in the dry land, died.
23 And every living substance was destroyed which was upon the face of the ground, both man, and cattle, and the creeping things, and the fowl of the heaven; and they were destroyed from the earth: and Noah only remained alive, and they that were with him in the ark. Genesis 7:22-23
I know what you mean, that's why I said "I think," lol. But it is interesting how the Lord phrased it, and His Second Coming is a physical return to earth so maybe "the lost" are the ones taken away and the saved remain with Him.

[Donny_B]

Yes, I now see in that instance the taken seem to be the taken by the flood waters versus taken by God into the ark, whereas left behind would be Noah and family after the flood versus the left behind when the door was closed.

[jazzbird]

God removes the righteous before pouring out His wrath. He gave Noah the protection of the ark, and He allowed Lot and his family to flee Sodom before it's destruction. Those who were left on the earth - or in the city - were the one's who were destroyed.

[Wilfred of Ivanhoe]

Per Paul's writing in Thessolonians, I am of the opinion that it is those who have been justified by God that will be taken up and that the judgement will then come upon those left on Earth.

Revelation 6:15 And the kings of the earth, and the great men, and the rich men, and the chief captains, and the mighty men, and every bondman, and every free man, hid themselves in the dens and in the rocks of the mountains;

16 And said to the mountains and rocks, Fall on us, and hide us from the face of him that sitteth on the throne, and from the wrath of the Lamb:

If those who are to incur God's wrath were taken from the Earth, why would we have this passage?

[Knight]

I guess we'll find out someday.......

[Cal]

Per Paul's writing in Thessolonians, I am of the opinion that it is those who have been justified by God that will be taken up and that the judgement will then come upon those left on Earth.

Revelation 6:15 And the kings of the earth, and the great men, and the rich men, and the chief captains, and the mighty men, and every bondman, and every free man, hid themselves in the dens and in the rocks of the mountains;

16 And said to the mountains and rocks, Fall on us, and hide us from the face of him that sitteth on the throne, and from the wrath of the Lamb:

If those who are to incur God's wrath were taken from the Earth, why would we have this passage?Wilfred,

Many believe that this relates to the destruction of Israel in 70 AD which was the end of the Israeli nation. I am one of them

The origin of the symbolism here is the prophecy of Hosea against Israel:

Ephraim will be seized with shame And Israel will be ashamed of its own counsel.

Samaria will be cut off with her king Like a stick on the surface of the water.
Also the high places of Aven, the sin of Israel, will be destroyed;

Thorn and thistle will grow on their altars; Then they will say to the mountains, "Cover us!" And to the hills, "Fall on us!" HOS 10:6-8

Jesus Christ cited this text on His way to the crucifixion, stating that it would be fufilled upon idolatrous Israel within the lifetimes of those who were then present:

And following Him was a large crowd of the people, and of women who were mourning and lamenting Him.

But Jesus turning to them said, "Daughters of Jerusalem, stop weeping for Me, but weep for yourselves and for your children.

"For behold, the days are coming when they will say, 'Blessed are the barren, and the wombs that never bore, and the breasts that never nursed.'

"Then they will begin to say to the mountains, 'Fall on us,' and to the hills, 'Cover us.' LUK 23:27-30

The must be the destruction of Israel in 70 AD.

[Donny_B]

But Revelation 6:15 says "all the kings of the earth" and "even bondman and every freeman", not just Israel. Just as the flood of Noah was the entire earth, not just a local flood.

[Cal]

But Revelation 6:15 says "all the kings of the earth" and "even bondman and every freeman", not just Israel. Just as the flood of Noah was the entire earth, not just a local flood.
RC Spoul in The Last Days According to Jesus, supports this is the destruction of Israel. He points to Russel's book Parousia for the following insights. Both of these books are really good but may I recommend RC's very highly to you.

Anyway Russell made these great insights:

THE SIXTH SEAL.

THE PROPHECY ON OLIVET.

‘And lo, there was a great earthquake.’ -Sixth Seal
‘And there shall be earthquakes in divers places’ (Luke xxi. 11; Matt. xxiv. 7). -Olivet


‘And the sun became black as sackcloth of hair.’-Sixth Seal
‘Immediately after the tribulation of those days shall the sun be darkened.’-Olivet


‘And the moon became as blood.’-Sixth Seal
‘And the moon shall not give her light.’-Olivet


‘And the stars of heaven fell unto the earth.’-Sixth Seal
‘And the stars shall fall from heaven.’-Olivet


‘And the heavens departed as a scroll when it is rolled together.’-Sixth Seal
‘And the powers of the heavens shall be shaken’ (Matt. xxiv. 29).-Olivet


‘And the kings, etc., hid themselves, . . . and said to the mountains and rocks, Fall on us, and hide us,’ etc.-Sixth Seal
‘Then shall they begin to say to the mountains, Fall on us: and to the hills, Cover us’ (Luke xxiii. 30).-Olivet

The comparison of these parallel passages must satisfy every reasonable mind that they both refer to one and the same event. What that event is our Lord’s words decisively determine: ‘Verily I say unto you, This generation shall not pass till all these things be fulfilled’ (Matt. xxiv. 34). The only passage which does not come within the discourse on the Mount of Olives is the address to the women who followed our Lord in the way to Calvary, yet even there the limitation of the time is clearly indicated: ‘Daughters of Jerusalem, weep not for me, but weep for yourselves and for your children;’ implying that the calamities which He predicted would come in the lifetime of themselves and their children. The same nearness of the time is marked by the phrase, ‘Behold, the days are coming’ (Luke xxiii. 29).


No doubt it will appear an objection to this explanation that the destruction of Jerusalem, awful as it was, appears inadequate as the antitype of the imagery of the sixth seal. The object applies equally to our Lord’s prophecy where His own authority determines the application of the signs. Indeed it applies to all prophecy: for prophecy is poetry, and Oriental poetry also, in which gorgeous symbolical imagery is the vesture of thought. Besides, the objection is based upon an inadequate estimate of the real significance and importance of the destruction of Jerusalem. That event is not simply a tragical historical incident; it is not to be looked at as in the same category with the siege of Troy or the destruction of Tyre or of Carthage. It was a grand providential epoch; the close of an aeon; the winding up of a great period in the divine government of the world. The material catastrophe was but the outward and visible sign of a mighty crisis in the realm of the unseen and the spiritual.


At the same time it is to be observed that the historical facts underlying these symbols are sufficiently real and tangible. The consternation and terror here depicted as seizing on ‘the kings of the land, the great men,’ etc., are in perfect accord with the scenes in the last days of Jerusalem as described by Josephus. Premising that by ‘the kings of the land’ [basileiz thz ghz] are meant the rulers of Judea, as we shall be able to show, we find the prophetic description wonderfully correspondent with the historical facts. First, the scene in the vision is evidently laid in a country abounding in rocky caverns and hiding-places, which, it is well known, are characteristic of Judea. The limestone hills of that country are literally honeycombed with caverns, which have been the dens of robbers and the shelter of fugitives from time immemorial. Ewald acknowledges ‘that there is here a special reference to the peculiarities of Palestine as to its rocks and caves, which afford places of shelter for fugitives.’ (Quoted by Stuart, Apocalypse, in loc.)

These two notes, the land, and its geological character, fix the locale of the scene. Secondly, it is a fact attested by Josephus that the last hiding-places of the infatuated citizens of Jerusalem were the rocky caverns and the subterranean passages into which they fled for refuge after the capture of the city:---

‘The last hope,’ says Josephus, ‘that buoyed up the tyrants and their brigand bands lay in the subterranean excavations, in which, should they take refuge, they expected that no search would be made for them, and purposed, after the final overthrow of the city, when the Romans should have withdrawn, to come forth and seek safety in flight. But this was after all a mere dream, for they were unable to hide themselves from the observation either of God, or of the Romans.’


Still more striking, if possible, is the fact mentioned by Josephus, that Simon, one of the chiefs of the rebellion, secreted himself after the capture of the city in one of these subterranean hiding-places. The incident is thus related by the Jewish historian:---

‘This Simon, during the siege of Jerusalem, had occupied the upper town; but when the Roman army had entered within the walls and was laying the whole city waste, accompanied by the most faithful of his friends, and some stonecutters with the iron tools required by them in their trade, and with provisions sufficient for many days, he let himself down with all his party into one of the secret caverns, and advanced through it as far as the ancient excavations permitted. Here, being met by firm ground, they mined it, in hope of being able to proceed farther, and, emerging in a place of safety, thus effect their escape. But the result of the operations proved the hope fallacious. The miners advance slowly and with difficulty, and the provisions, though husbanded, were on the point of failing.


‘Thereupon Simon, thinking that he might pass a cheat upon the Romans by the effect of terror, dressed himself in white tunics, and buttoning a purple cloak over them, rose up out of the earth at the very spot where the temple formerly stood. At first indeed, the beholders were seized with amazement, and stood fixed to the spot; but afterwards, approaching nearer, they demanded who he was. This Simon refused to tell them, but directed them to call the general; on which they ran quickly to Terentius Rufus, who had been left in command of the army. He accordingly came, and after hearing from Simon the whole truth, he kept him in irons, and acquainted Caesar with the particulars of his capture . . . . His ascent out of the ground, however, led at that period to the discovery, in other caverns, of a vast multitude of the other insurgents. On the return of Caesar to the maritime Caesarea, Simon was brought to him in chains, and he ordered him to be kept for the triumph which he was preparing to celebrate in Rome.’


Source: http://ascensionhill.com/The.Parousia.3.html

[frumanchu]

It should be noted that Russell is a full preterist while Sproul is a partial-preterist amillennialist. Sproul cites Russell extensively, but I believe also points out where Russell is wrong in his full preterism.

[Cal]

It should be noted that Russell is a full preterist while Sproul is a partial-preterist amillennialist. Sproul cites Russell extensively, but I believe also points out where Russell is wrong in his full preterism.
And I agree with RC, but Russell has some very strong insights into Revelation.

[Donny_B]

The WCF's statement on eschatology is summed up in:

III. As Christ would have us to be certainly persuaded that there shall be a day of judgment, both to deter all men from sin; and for the greater consolation of the godly in their adversity:[6] (http://www.reformed.org/documents/wcf_with_proofs/XXXIII_fn.html#fn5) so will He have that day unknown to men, that they may shake off all carnal security, and be always watchful, because they know not at what hour the Lord will come; and may be ever prepared to say, Come Lord Jesus, come quickly, Amen.[7] (http://www.reformed.org/documents/wcf_with_proofs/XXXIII_fn.html#fn6)

Imminency, no second chances, and the fact that it is still future stands out to me as the most important concepts here. This eliminates many of the eschatalogical views today.

[Donny_B]

From my limited study of eschatology, the WCF, at least the original one, seems to take a historicist view, as opposed to preterist and futurist. The "man of sin" of II Thessalonians 2 was fulfilled in history in the papacy.

Chapter XXV Of the Church

VI. There is no other head of the Church but the Lord Jesus Christ.[13] (http://www.reformed.org/documents/wcf_with_proofs/XXV_fn.html#fn12) Nor can the Pope of Rome, in any sense, be head thereof; but is that Antichrist, that man of sin, and son of perdition, that exalts himself, in the Church, against Christ and all that is called God.[14] (http://www.reformed.org/documents/wcf_with_proofs/XXV_fn.html#fn13)

http://www.reformed.org/documents/index.html
http://www.creeds.net/reformed/creeds.htm (PCUSA "unofficial" site)

But I noticed some newer versions of the WCF, such as the PCA and OPC versions, have "watered this down" a bit. It deleleted the portion calling the Pope, the "man of sin". Possibly from preterist and futurist influences.

Chapter XXV Of The Church

6. There is no other head of the Church but the Lord Jesus Christ. Nor can the Pope of Rome, in any sense, be head thereof.

http://www.opc.org/documents/WCF_frames.html
http://www.pcanet.org/general/cof_contents.htm

[Cal]

From my limited study of eschatology, the WCF, at least the original one, seems to take a historicist view, as opposed to preterist and futurist. The "man of sin" of II Thessalonians 2 was fulfilled in history in the papacy.

Chapter XXV Of the Church

VI. There is no other head of the Church but the Lord Jesus Christ.[13] (http://www.reformed.org/documents/wcf_with_proofs/XXV_fn.html#fn12) Nor can the Pope of Rome, in any sense, be head thereof; but is that Antichrist, that man of sin, and son of perdition, that exalts himself, in the Church, against Christ and all that is called God.[14] (http://www.reformed.org/documents/wcf_with_proofs/XXV_fn.html#fn13)Chapter XXV Of The Church

6. There is no other head of the Church but the Lord Jesus Christ. Nor can the Pope of Rome, in any sense, be head thereof.

I have always been fascinated with the Assembly's, Luthers and the majority of the Reformers interpretation of Rome as the False Prophet and Whore of Babylon in Revelation. They make some extremely good points and they are certainly worthy of our serious consideration, no matter what are eschatological views may be.

[Donny_B]

I did some further research and found a .pdf file of the PCUSA Book of Confessions to show its current version of the WCF Chapter XXV, Section 6:

PCUS version (before reunification into the PCUSA)

Chapter XXVII Of The Church

6. The Lord Jesus Christ is the only head of the Church, and the claim of any man to be the vicar of Christ and the head of the Church is without warrant in fact or in Scripture, even anti-Christian, a usurpation dishonoring to the Lord Jesus Christ.

UPCUSA version (before reunification into the PCUSA)

Chapter XXV Of The Church

6. The Lord Jesus Christ is the only head of the Church, and the claim of any man to be vicar of Christ and the head of the Church is unscriptural, without warrant in fact, and is a usurpation dishonoring to the Lord Jesus Christ.

Like the PCA and OPC versions, they have softened the original language.

[Wisdom's Child]

Now back to the OP...

I think that I want to be left behind as well...

:bow: The Word of The Lord, Jesus Christ :bow:
Parable of the Wheat and the Tares
Matthew 13:24-30
Another parable put he forth unto them, saying, The kingdom of heaven is likened unto a man which sowed good seed in his field: But while men slept, his enemy came and sowed tares among the wheat, and went his way. But when the blade was sprung up, and brought forth fruit, then appeared the tares also. So the servants of the householder came and said unto him, Sir, didst not thou sow good seed in thy field? from whence then hath it tares? He said unto them, An enemy hath done this. The servants said unto him, Wilt thou then that we go and gather them up?
But he said, Nay; lest while ye gather up the tares, ye root up also the wheat with them. Let both grow together until the harvest: and in the time of harvest I will say to the reapers, Gather ye together first the tares, and bind them in bundles to burn them: but gather the wheat into my barn.


:bow: The Word of The Lord, Jesus Christ :bow:
Jesus Reveals the Meaning of the Parable



Matthew 13:36-43
Then Jesus sent the multitude away, and went into the house: and his disciples came unto him, saying, Declare unto us the parable of the tares of the field. He answered and said unto them, He that soweth the good seed is the Son of man; The field is the world; the good seed are the children of the kingdom; but the tares are the children of the wicked one; The enemy that sowed them is the devil; the harvest is the end of the world; and the reapers are the angels. As therefore the tares are gathered and burned in the fire; so shall it be in the end of this world. The Son of man shall send forth his angels, and they shall gather out of his kingdom all things that offend, and them which do iniquity; And shall cast them into a furnace of fire: there shall be wailing and gnashing of teeth. Then shall the righteous shine forth as the sun in the kingdom of their Father.
Who hath ears to hear, let him hear.

I think that I will take Jesus at His Word that the Righteous will still be in the Field shining their light like the Sun, after His Angels remove and Burn those Tares.

[Cal]

Now back to the OP...

I think that I want to be left behind as well...



:bow: The Word of The Lord, Jesus Christ :bow:




Parable of the Wheat and the Tares







:bow: The Word of The Lord, Jesus Christ :bow:




Jesus Reveals the Meaning of the Parable






I think that I will take Jesus at His Word that the Righteous will still be in the Field shining their light like the Sun, after His Angels remove and Burn those Tares.
Great point, I should have remembered that verse! :sigh:

[rnmomof7]

God removes the righteous before pouring out His wrath. He gave Noah the protection of the ark, and He allowed Lot and his family to flee Sodom before it's destruction. Those who were left on the earth - or in the city - were the one's who were destroyed.


The entire "doctrine" of the rapture" is a faulty reading of the scriptures

The pre-tribulation view was trance-channeled in 1830 by a woman named Margaret MacDonald in Port Glasgow, Scotland.

Up until then the A Mil was the accepted reading of the scripture

[Donny_B]

Sorry to be such a WCF person :D

...but the rapture is described in

Chapter XXXII Of The State of Men after Death, and the Resurrection of the Dead

II. At the last day, such as are found alive shall not die, but be changed:[5] (http://www.reformed.org/documents/wcf_with_proofs/XXXII_fn.html#fn4) and all the dead shall be raised up, with the selfsame bodies, and none other (although with different qualities), which shall be united again to their souls forever.[6] (http://www.reformed.org/documents/wcf_with_proofs/XXXII_fn.html#fn5)

[Wisdom's Child]

Sorry to be such a WCF person :D

...but the rapture is described in

Chapter XXXII Of The State of Men after Death, and the Resurrection of the Dead

II. At the last day, such as are found alive shall not die, but be changed:[5] (http://www.reformed.org/documents/wcf_with_proofs/XXXII_fn.html#fn4) and all the dead shall be raised up, with the selfsame bodies, and none other (although with different qualities), which shall be united again to their souls forever.[6] (http://www.reformed.org/documents/wcf_with_proofs/XXXII_fn.html#fn5)

Look at the Time Frame...

"At the last day, such as are found alive ..."

This is describing what will happen at the End of the Tribulation Period, and is consistant with the statement "Those that presevere to the end Shall Be Saved."

At the point this reference is describing, the Wicked have already been removed.

[Cal]

The entire "doctrine" of the rapture" is a faulty reading of the scriptures

The pre-tribulation view was trance-channeled in 1830 by a woman named Margaret MacDonald in Port Glasgow, Scotland.

Up until then the A Mil was the accepted reading of the scripture
Correction. "...a mentally retarded girl named Margaret MacDonald..."

[Donny_B]

Look at the Time Frame...

"At the last day, such as are found alive ..."

This is describing what will happen at the End of the Tribulation Period, and is consistant with the statement "Those that presevere to the end Shall Be Saved."

At the point this reference is describing, the Wicked have already been removed.
It does not say "at the end of the tribulation period" but rather "at the last day". And we know there are wicked still alive (who are being killed), because of Rev 19:21 (compare to Rev 19:14).

14 And the armies which were in heaven followed him upon white horses, clothed in fine linen, white and clean. Rev 19:14

21 And the remnant were slain with the sword of him that sat upon the horse, which sword proceeded out of his mouth: and all the fowls were filled with their flesh. Rev 19:21

[jazzbird]

The entire "doctrine" of the rapture" is a faulty reading of the scriptures

The pre-tribulation view was trance-channeled in 1830 by a woman named Margaret MacDonald in Port Glasgow, Scotland.

Up until then the A Mil was the accepted reading of the scripture

I am not pre-trib. Sorry if I gave that impression.

I don't know that much about a mil, but I thought they believe there is a rapture but that it's not followed by a 1,000 year reign. I mean, they are still waiting for the second coming, right? I'm not talking about a pre-trib rapture.

Are you a mil? What do you believe about the return of Christ?