Vespers Service

[BabyLutheran]

I am going to go to a vespers service tonight, anything special I need to know so I won't be embarrassed? lol:clap:

[RevCowboy]

Just follow the book!

Vespers is really cool, just enjoy yourself.

[BabyLutheran]

Thanks, I am getting ready to leave right now to go!

Will give a full report later. lol

[Lupinus]

Nothing special to know really. Think of them as a mini no communion service. There will be some hymns, likely a short sermon and some readings, and some other things. My Church does vespers during certain parts of the year as well as a few thrown in for fun lol.

They tend to be much more informal affairs as well. Fireside vespers are sweet

[BabyLutheran]

It was very nice, only 4 of us and the pastor, lol. It was a good way to decompress and contemplate in the midst of my busy time of year. I am going to make it every week!

I think the pastor is trying to get this service going, they have a bible study class that he teaches immediately afterwards.

I did notice something that I had not see before. (You might remember that we visited this church two Sundays ago). Anyway, we had entered the sanctuary through the rear door. Tonight I was way up in the front row, and when the Vespers was over, we all went to a little font (not sure what to call it), dipped our fingers in the water, and crossed ourselves. This was very nice IMO.

Is it called holy water in the Lutheran church?

[Lupinus]

I've never seen that in a Lutheran Church (of course, I haven't been to many different churches). But just about every (if not every) Catholic Church will have that.

It's something I'd rather like to see in Church.

[BabyLutheran]

Mind you that this is an ELCA congregation too!

I think it is a church that is very mindful of traditional customs, while at the same time, not making them so obtrusive, so that non Lutherans who are seeking a church home may feel welcome.

Another example of this is the communion being served from a common cup or by intinction.

Not sure if that makes it even more surprising or not that they had Holy Water! I haven't been "Lutheran" long enough to really know the inter synod difference too well. lol

[Lupinus]

ELCA congregations seem to swing widly from conservative to very liberal, so would depend a lot on the church.

[RadMan]

I've never seen that done at any Lutheran Church and I've been to many of them.........???

[BabyLutheran]

Now that I think about it, it may have been the same font they used to do the baptism which occurred when we visited.

[Lupinus]

first for everything Rad lol

I always liked it but doubt a suggestion for one would go very far lol

[BabyLutheran]

Well, we may be the only church that has it, and I think it is really nice! Maybe it was a special occasion (like Jesus' baptism) or something, and they don't normally do it. Maybe some of the other pastors can comment.

[RegularGuy]

I love vespers. It's a beautiful contemplative time. Pity more peple don't take part in it.

Some ELCA churches I've attended have the font at the entranceway for congregants to dip their fingers and make the sign of the cross in remembrance of their baptism. I like it.

[ByzantineDixie]

A former pastor of mine told me there was a baptismal font upon entering the chapel at the CSL seminary when he was studying there and they would dip their fingers in it and cross themselves. Certainly not typical for the LCMS but not completely unheard of either.

[IowaLutheran]

We do vespers during Advent and Lent - there are a variety of different versions. I like the darkness in the sanctuary and incense during the singing of the psalm.

We briefly had the baptismal font in the back so people could dip their hands in the water and make the sign of the cross but that did not last long. Too unfamiliar to modern Lutherans, which is quite a shame because the concept of making the sign of the cross and remembering our baptism is certainly consistent with Lutheranism.

We don't call it "Holy Water" though as if the water retains some sort of special power by itself - it is the Word that makes the water special.

[BabyLutheran]

Yes, the pastor used a similar phrase in his sermon tonight about how the water was nothing special until combined with God's word. I believe he was quoting Luther, but I am not sure.

It was tied into the reading about Saul being baptized by Annais in Acts.

It is too bad that modern Lutherans don't seem to like it. Almost like, if it looks Catholic, we gotta not do it.

[RegularGuy]

Yes, the pastor used a similar phrase in his sermon tonight about how the water was nothing special until combined with God's word. I believe he was quoting Luther, but I am not sure.

Yup. That's straight out of the Small Catechism.

[RadMan]

Yes, the pastor used a similar phrase in his sermon tonight about how the water was nothing special until combined with God's word. I believe he was quoting Luther, but I am not sure.

It was tied into the reading about Saul being baptized by Annais in Acts.

It is too bad that modern Lutherans don't seem to like it. Almost like, if it looks Catholic, we gotta not do it.So was the pastor referring to "the water was nothing special until combined with God's word" for baptism or for just dipping you hand in the water and crossing yourself?

[RevCowboy]

Yes, the font filled with water in a church would the baptismal font. There would be no reason to have any other font.

The Baptism of Christ is usually celebrated on the first Sunday after Epiphany, which could be why the pastor had you gather around the fount. However, its also quite possible that every vespers service has the remembrance. In the new Cranberry book, there is a remembrance of Baptism rite than can be used in the place of corporate confession and absolution. I rather like it.

I compare baptism to being married, you don't stop being married after your wedding ceremony. I don't say, "I was baptized", I say, "I AM baptized". Every day Martin Luther as he washed his face or bathed would also cross himself and remember his baptism as an enduring daily covenant with God.

The Baptismal font at the back of the church is something that I have found to be rather common in Lutheran churches, at least around here in these parts. Although, I imagine that might be because 1 liturgy professors trained most of the pastors in western Canada.

The water isn't holy. Lutherans don't have that, its just normal tap water. However, the water becomes is tangible sign of membership in the Body of Christ when it is combined with God's Word. Its something that you can touch and feel to know that each time you touch water, that you are baptized.

However, having the baptismal font outside the sanctuary is an ancient practice. If you have visited the cathedrals of Europe, you might have seen. The only thing is they would be huge buildings literally outside of the church called a baptistry. The Baptismal font is outside the sanctuary because it is always the first thing that happens upon becoming part of the of Body of Christ.

And so having the baptismal font outside the sanctuary is a means of being reminded each time you enter the sanctuary that this is where it all started and this is what you belong to.

[ctay]

I've seen it done in a Lutheran church, the pastor always mentioned it was a rememberance of your baptism

[BabyLutheran]

So was the pastor referring to "the water was nothing special until combined with God's word" for baptism or for just dipping you hand in the water and crossing yourself?
For baptism, it was during the mini-sermon he was giving about Saul and his baptism

[Lupinus]

Maybe I'll suggest to my Pastor we put the font by the door and see what he says.

But as mentioned already I have noticed a lot of Lutherans have a Catholic phobia.

[BabyLutheran]

Our font is in the front, just inside the entrance door. The sanctuary is entered from the side, and there is a door towards the front and a door that leads into the rear of the sanctuary. If you were seated in the pews, the font would be on the front right, just inside the doors.

[RevCowboy]

Maybe I'll suggest to my Pastor we put the font by the door and see what he says.

But as mentioned already I have noticed a lot of Lutherans have a Catholic phobia.

I bet he would really like that idea!

The tougher sell will be when I want to convince a congregation to take the baptismal font out of the closet and put it outside the sanctuary in the foyer on days when we don't have a baptism.

If I am ever lucky enough to be at a church that is either building a new building or doing a major renovation, I will suggest putting a massive stone work font outside the sanctuary that always has running water, and that I could possibly use to do full immersion baptisms in. Then for baptisms the whole congregation could file out into the foyer where we could all watch the baptism and then literally walk with the newly baptized as he/she enters the sanctuary for the first time as a member of the Body of Christ. Oh the power of that image! I would love for congregations to see a person drown to sin and the raised to new life in Christ and then to walk with this person as they enter into the sanctuary as part of the Body of Christ. And waiting for us would be the lit Paschal Candle, the most important symbol of the resurrected Christ, where we would light the baptismal candle of the newly baptized as a sign of their calling to be a light of Christ to the world. If congregations could do liturgy like that, no one would ask for powerpoint!

[GratiaCorpusChristi]

Maybe I'll suggest to my Pastor we put the font by the door and see what he says.

But as mentioned already I have noticed a lot of Lutherans have a Catholic phobia.
Alas.

[BabyLutheran]

I bet he would really like that idea!

The tougher sell will be when I want to convince a congregation to take the baptismal font out of the closet and put it outside the sanctuary in the foyer on days when we don't have a baptism.

If I am ever lucky enough to be at a church that is either building a new building or doing a major renovation, I will suggest putting a massive stone work font outside the sanctuary that always has running water, and that I could possibly use to do full immersion baptisms in. Then for baptisms the whole congregation could file out into the foyer where we could all watch the baptism and then literally walk with the newly baptized as he/she enters the sanctuary for the first time as a member of the Body of Christ. Oh the power of that image! I would love for congregations to see a person drown to sin and the raised to new life in Christ and then to walk with this person as they enter into the sanctuary as part of the Body of Christ. And waiting for us would be the lit Paschal Candle, the most important symbol of the resurrected Christ, where we would light the baptismal candle of the newly baptized as a sign of their calling to be a light of Christ to the world. If congregations could do liturgy like that, no one would ask for powerpoint!
I want to be in your church.

Come to Virginia Beach, and let's start one, ok?

[RevCowboy]

I want to be in your church.

Come to Virginia Beach, and let's start one, ok?

Well, technically when I am finished seminary in April of 2009, I can take a call in the ELCIC or the ELCA.

So if you can get a congregation in Virginia Beach to call me... I will promise to think about it;)

[BabyLutheran]

Well, technically when I am finished seminary in April of 2009, I can take a call in the ELCIC or the ELCA.

So if you can get a congregation in Virginia Beach to call me... I will promise to think about it;)
Let me get settled in at St Michael. (where the font is in the sanctuary..lol).

I know that the pastor is new. He used a phrase, like the calling is in process, or something like that.

It is growing, maybe they will need an associate....

http://www.stmichaelvb.org/index.html

[BabyLutheran]

BTW here is a pic of the font, it is the wooden structure

http://www.stmichaelvb.org/Pictures/1.jpg

[DaRev]

The tougher sell will be when I want to convince a congregation to take the baptismal font out of the closet and put it outside the sanctuary in the foyer on days when we don't have a baptism.

What church keeps the font in a closet?? :scratch: It should be prominently positioned in the Chancel normally.

I normally move ours to the center of the aisle in the front on the first Sunday after Epiphany (Baptism of our Lord) so that folks can dip their fingers and make the sign of the cross as a remembrance of their baptism as they come up to the communion rail. Everyone in the church that Sunday did so. I would leave it their regularly but there really isn't room there for it.

[RegularGuy]

Is that a coffee carafe?

This must be a Scandanavian Lutheran congregation if they Baptize in coffee.

:D

[BabyLutheran]

LOL

It is a coffee carafe he is using, maybe they used it to keep the water warm so they wouldn't freeze the baptised's heads!

He is pouring the water into the font, I guess he put towels around to protect the wood.

[DaRev]

The official name of the vessle that the baptism water is poured from is a "ewer". Perhaps that one serves a double duty. ^_^

[RevCowboy]

What church keeps the font in a closet?? :scratch: It should be prominently positioned in the Chancel normally.

I normally move ours to the center of the aisle in the front on the first Sunday after Epiphany (Baptism of our Lord) so that folks can dip their fingers and make the sign of the cross as a remembrance of their baptism as they come up to the communion rail. Everyone in the church that Sunday did so. I would leave it their regularly but there really isn't room there for it.

Unfortunately there more than a few rural congregations who simply don't have regular pastors, whether because they are one of many points in the parish, or because pastors never seems to stay longer than a year in a call. Usually some well intending parishioner thinks that the font is safer in the closet, especially considering that it probably hasn't been used in years. My guess is whoever the pastor is, blowing through town, probably doesn't notice that its missing.

[RevCowboy]

The official name of the vessle that the baptism water is poured from is a "ewer". Perhaps that one serves a double duty. ^_^

My supervisor often instructs the ushers, to put warm water in the ewer. Well, one Sunday an Usher thought that if it was boiling hot at the beginning of the service, it would be nice and warm for the Baptism after the sermon. So when my supervisor plunged his hands in to swirl the water around during the Luther's Flood prayer, he discovered what most 7th grade student learn in science class. Water takes a long time to cool down.

When it came time to baptize the child, he had to stick his hands in the scalding hot water, then he had to grit his teeth and let most of it run off his hands before touching the baby. Kind of like a Baptism by fire and water at the same time.;) Now we instruct the ushers that if it is swimming pool temperature at the beginning of the service it will still be that warm for the Baptism. Anything else is too hot!

[RadMan]

The wood under the font bowl probably holds the heat fairly well to

[Lupinus]

What church keeps the font in a closet?? :scratch: It should be prominently positioned in the Chancel normally.
Yeah ours is always out in the open in the sanctuary. Right up front and to the right in a corner, if it has water in it all the time though I have no idea. Not sure I wanna be the one taking the lid off for a peek inside to find out :D

[RegularGuy]

The official name of the vessle that the baptism water is poured from is a "ewer". Perhaps that one serves a double duty. ^_^
Now I'm picturing a Baptismal samovar...but ...well...let's not go there.

I attended a church for a while in which the font was actually one piece with the pulpit. It was beautiful and was intended to visually connect Word and Sacrament. It kept the font up front at all times. It had the drawback of making it impossible to move the font to the center of the aisle for a Baptism.

That church also had the most beautiful altar painting I'd ever seen.

[Mary of Bethany]

I bet he would really like that idea!

The tougher sell will be when I want to convince a congregation to take the baptismal font out of the closet and put it outside the sanctuary in the foyer on days when we don't have a baptism.

If I am ever lucky enough to be at a church that is either building a new building or doing a major renovation, I will suggest putting a massive stone work font outside the sanctuary that always has running water, and that I could possibly use to do full immersion baptisms in. Then for baptisms the whole congregation could file out into the foyer where we could all watch the baptism and then literally walk with the newly baptized as he/she enters the sanctuary for the first time as a member of the Body of Christ. Oh the power of that image! I would love for congregations to see a person drown to sin and the raised to new life in Christ and then to walk with this person as they enter into the sanctuary as part of the Body of Christ. And waiting for us would be the lit Paschal Candle, the most important symbol of the resurrected Christ, where we would light the baptismal candle of the newly baptized as a sign of their calling to be a light of Christ to the world. If congregations could do liturgy like that, no one would ask for powerpoint!

You basically just described an Orthodox Baptism. :)

Mary

[RadMan]

Now I'm picturing a Baptismal samovar...but ...well...let's not go there.

I attended a church for a while in which the font was actually one piece with the pulpit. It was beautiful and was intended to visually connect Word and Sacrament. It kept the font up front at all times. It had the drawback of making it impossible to move the font to the center of the aisle for a Baptism.

That church also had the most beautiful altar painting I'd ever seen.This is not exactly what you are talking about but this baptismal fount is in the altar when not in use and an integral part of the altar. It fits into the darker part of the altar and is triangular in shape.

[RevCowboy]

You basically just described an Orthodox Baptism. :)

Mary

I like to call myself Orthodox but not Eastern, Catholic but not Roman and Lutheran all the way.

I know the Eastern Orthodox Church has kept its traditions mostly the same for its entire history. Many in the western church are trying to get back to the practices of the early church and thankfully we know what that looks like because the EO are still doing it.

[BabyLutheran]

You really do sound like my twin brother of a different mother.

Here is another pic of the baptismal font. Now that I see it from this angle, it is indeed the font we dipped our fingers in and crossed ourselves from after Vespers. BTW, what is the name of the really nice candle, is it a Paschal candle?

http://www.stmichaelvb.org/Pictures/5.jpg

Also it explains to me the formerly unfathomable sentence in the bulletin on Sundays. It appears at the top of the order of service, before the service starts in the bulletin: "The members of the congregation are encouraged to cross themselves in remembrance of their baptism."

Now that I know what it means, I will start doing it, and be very happy to do so!

[RegularGuy]

Paschal candle, yes...or Christ candle.

Symbollic of the resurrection, it is lit during the Sundays of Easter, at Baptisms and funerals.

[RevCowboy]

Paschal candle, yes...or Christ candle.

Symbollic of the resurrection, it is lit during the Sundays of Easter, at Baptisms and funerals.

Not to mention that it is first lit on the Great Vigil of Easter from a raging outdoor fire. If you happen to have a bishop around laying around the congregation, you can get them to put the year on the candle right before its lit.;) And if you are really ambitious you can make your own from bee's wax.

[Lupinus]

Rev-
The only problem is they mix in far to much of the same wrong things as the RCC does. The only thing they both have going for them is that their execution is, IMO, by and large better. The Priests generally have a lot more spiritual nature then many of the Lutheran Pastors I have encountered.

[DaRev]

If I am ever lucky enough to be at a church that is either building a new building or doing a major renovation, I will suggest putting a massive stone work font outside the sanctuary that always has running water, and that I could possibly use to do full immersion baptisms in. Then for baptisms the whole congregation could file out into the foyer where we could all watch the baptism and then literally walk with the newly baptized as he/she enters the sanctuary for the first time as a member of the Body of Christ. Oh the power of that image! I would love for congregations to see a person drown to sin and the raised to new life in Christ and then to walk with this person as they enter into the sanctuary as part of the Body of Christ. And waiting for us would be the lit Paschal Candle, the most important symbol of the resurrected Christ, where we would light the baptismal candle of the newly baptized as a sign of their calling to be a light of Christ to the world. If congregations could do liturgy like that, no one would ask for powerpoint!

The church I attended our ciruit conference on Oviedo, FL has just that type of font in their narthex. They don't do immersion baptisms but they could. They have two cameras mounted so that the congregation can watch the baptism on two large screens in the sanctuary. The number of people at any given service would be too great for them to gather in the narthex. It's a rather large church.

[RegularGuy]

The church I attended our ciruit conference on Oviedo, FL has just that type of font in their narthex. They don't do immersion baptisms but they could. They have two cameras mounted so that the congregation can watch the baptism on two large screens in the sanctuary. The number of people at any given service would be too great for them to gather in the narthex. It's a rather large church.
Unless I am mistaken, the font at Valparaiso University is also like that.