Whatsoever you do to the least of My brethren, that you do unto Me.

[MariaRegina]

Didn't Christ say that we will be judged when we judge our brothers?

Who is our brother? Is it just Orthodox Christians? Or are we to be nice to Muslims and those who hate us?

Isn't use of sarcasm a judgment about others?

Aren't we thinking: "Boy, they are stupid, dense, stubborn ....."

What is your opinion about sarcasm or the use of the rollyeyed smilie :rolleyes:?

Do you think sarcasm is appropriate behavior of Orthodox Christians?

[Momzilla]

I think that sarcasm (or its literary cousin, satire) can sometimes be the "spoonful of sugar" that helps the medicine of criticism go down. In other words, sarcasm can be used as a means of loving correction, in which case it is not sinful, or it can be used to demean and belittle others, in which case it is sinful. As with everything else, it depends on the heart of the individual doing it.

I didn't vote on the poll because there wasn't a "sometimes, it depends" option. Good question, though!

[MariaRegina]

I think that sarcasm (or its literary cousin, satire) can sometimes be the "spoonful of sugar" that helps the medicine of criticism go down. In other words, sarcasm can be used as a means of loving correction, in which case it is not sinful, or it can be used to demean and belittle others, in which case it is sinful. As with everything else, it depends on the heart of the individual doing it.

I didn't vote on the poll because there wasn't a "sometimes, it depends" option. Good question, though!

Dear Momzilla:

Please give an example of the spoonful of sugar. I've never seen a good use of it.

Did Christ ever use sarcasm? He did use justifiable anger.

What type of speech is this: "You brood of vipers! Whitewashed sepulchres!" Christ was telling it like it was. This is not sarcasm, but metaphors, right?

We are to be saints. Saints are known for their loving, gentle way of correcting. Would that we all would behave as the saints that we should be. (How's that for sophisticated use of modals?}


:D

Lovingly yours in Christ our God,
Elizabeth

[Cradle]

Can't identify myself with any of the answers either. But surely there is no distinction between Orthodox Christians and otherwise. We owe love to everybody, because the Lord suffered for everybody.

Sarcasm and satire are also close relatives of humour - is humour sinful? I don't think so, not as such. Of course, the same well-meant humourous comment may sound funny to somebody but offensive to somebody else. We should be careful. Trying to keep our spirits humble at all times can help. But generally it's not a black and white situation.

I for once was famous and popular among my colleagues for my sarcasm / satire in my previous job :) .

[MariaRegina]

Again, can you give an example of a Christian use of sarcasm?

What would your priest say if sarcasm was used in his presence?

[Moros]

Find me one passage in the Bible where Christ says "thou shalt not parody."

[Rilian]

I think being belittling or hurtful as Momzilla pointed out is wrong, but I think sarcasm can just be a means of taking a lighter look at things. It's all about context I suppose.

I'm wary just to say out of hand it's wrong. I've spent enough time in churches where being humorless and dour was seen as being "religious" and misery was a mark of personal piety. I read a piece by Fr. Schmemann last night saying the most damning criticism of Christianity was that of Nietzsche when he described Christians as being a people without joy.

Heaven help me if sarcasm becomes a true sin anyway, and I'm not being sarcastic. ;)

[MariaRegina]

Okay, please visit the Fundy forum and you will see that our fundamentalist protestant brethren generally believe that sarcasm is a sin.

We can make puns - not sinful - although some priests don't even like the use of puns.

But when I asked my Orthodox Priest about sarcastic remarks. He said that it is wrong and sinful. Would you chance going to the grave with these unconfessed sins on your souls?

We can have a sense of humor. Read THE MOUNTAIN OF SILENCE by Kyriakos Markides. Those monks had a good sense of humor, but I didn't detect any sarcasm.

There was one particularly humorous episode (which I won't tell about, so that you can enjoy it) which showed the humor of the saints and God.

A joyless Christian is not a true Christian because one of the gifts of the Holy Spirit is joy. In fact, I wasn't chrismated until I was willing to fast joyfully. That took a real conversion and God's loving mercy. Now I know the meaning of Bright sadness.

Hope this helps.
Elizabeth

[Cradle]

Again, can you give an example of a Christian use of sarcasm?

I used sarcasm in this forum in the following thread.

http://www.christianforums.com/t672985

Now that I'm reading it again, it was quite sharp sarcasm I think in fact :) :) :) .

I don't know if it's a Christian use, it's certainly a human use. We need to struggle for discretion and humility, and in order not to hurt others. I think the line between the "sinful" and the "non-sinful" areas is not always very clear and also depends on circumstances.

Let me give you an analogy. We are allowed to have complaints against others when we think they have been unfair to us. But we should not let the complaint evolve into hate, desire for revenge etc. To avoid that, we need prayer and humility. Likewise, innocent humour and well-meant constructive critisism are not necessarily sinful. But we need to exercise discretion as to when, how, to whom.

The oniondome.com is a form of sarcasm isn't it? :)

[MariaRegina]

I don't speak Greek, but I assume that you are speaking of Greek food. I didn't read post this as sarcasm, but as a serious problem which exists with people who think that being Greek Orthodox is synonymous with Greek culture, that they are Greek Orthodox by virtue of their birth. That being Greek Orthodox has nothing to do with following the canons of the Church. Instead of using the rollyeyed sarcasm smilie, I would favor the head banging smilie imported here. http://forums.squareultima.com/images/smilies/wallbang.gif
to express my frustration with such ignorant people.

I live in England and therefore I do not intend to interfere with the problems of Orthodoxy in America. I believe the faithful in the US should agree upon their own model of handling the local church affairs. However, with all due respect, I find myself in disagreement with statements such as the following

"Our parents built the churches themselves, not the bishop in Turkey"

This man should not forget that "the churches" are neither his living room nor his souvlaki house but the House of the Lord. And they don't belong to him by inheritance or by culture, but to the Lord.

Real Orthodoxy is about avoiding the extremes of both roman clerical autocracy and protestant populism. I have heard stories about GOA parishes in the 80s where the parishioners literally sacked their priests because their long beards and their advice ("come to confession" and "prepare before you come to communion, preferably more than once a year") were not in line with the souvlaki-retsina-kamaki culture. Don't know if the stories are true, but my source (relative by blood) would not lie to me.

The Orthodox Way, the Way of the Holy Spirit, is always the middle way.

[Cradle]

More or less my point was what you understood, although a bit more general (I did mention protestant-like populism, not necessarily restricting to greeks, greek-americans or whatever). But anyway.

You expressed it in a serious fashion; I used sarcasm instead. You were not shocked or offended; glory to God for that. But if I had this guy face to face and told him "hey bloke, this church is not your living room or your restaurant", he would most probably be offended. I think in a different situation I ought to have phrased it differently. Hence my point : how, when, to whom.

I hope I make sense :) .

[MariaRegina]

More or less my point was what you understood, although a bit more general (I did mention protestant-like populism, not necessarily restricting to greeks, greek-americans or whatever). But anyway.

You expressed it in a serious fashion; I used sarcasm instead. You were not shocked or offended; glory to God for that. But if I had this guy face to face and told him "hey bloke, this church is not your living room or your restaurant", he would most probably be offended. I think in a different situation I ought to have phrased it differently. Hence my point : how, when, to whom.

I hope I make sense :) .

Yes, you did.

The way you wrote this post is not sinful.

Your actual utterance would be sinful: "hey bloke, this church is not your living room or your restaurant".

The sin is not so much in what is said, but in how it is said. This I fail in also. However, I'm trying to be more civil in my conversations and postings knowing that if I scandalize anyone causing them to lose the faith by my biting sarcastic tongue, it would have been better if a millstone were placed around my neck and my body dropped into the ocean.

[Cradle]

There you see we reached agreement :clap: .

[MariaRegina]

There you see we reached agreement :clap: .

Agreement?

I still view sarcasm as sinful.

We have to be very careful in what we say, to whom we say, and how we say utterances. If I address my priest with roll-eyes, that is considered disrespectful, and I would probably end up on the floor in a prostration. :sorry:
:bow:

If my son does something stupid and I give my husband a roll-eyed look, he may be offended, however my son definitely will be offended. It's just best not to use sarcasm.

Posts can be very ambiguous. Over in OBOB I was trying to express frustration using the rollyeyed smilie, only to be mistaken for sarcasm, which I never intended to express. Thank goodness the mod is considering trashing the entire thread now, due to the misunderstands generated by a stupid sneering smilie.

Over in the Suggestions Forum, I have a thread petitioning Erwin to replace the rollyeyed monster with a frustration smilie (the only banging his head against the wall). http://forums.squareultima.com/images/smilies/wallbang.gif

If you agree, please contribute to the thread over in Suggestions.

[countrymousenc]

Well, I thought the question, "Did Jesus ever use sarcasm" was interesting, so I went looking.

5. "How can you say to your brother, `Brother, let me take the speck out of your eye,' when you yourself fail to see the plank in your own eye?"

Luke 6:42a

I'd venture to say that whether or not sarcasm is sinful does depend on the context, and on the intent of the one who's using it. Jesus used it in this instance as a literary device (employing hyperbole) to drive home a point, and probably got a few sheepish grins.

As for the rolleyes emoticon, I think it's not evil in and of itself; again, it depends upon how we use it. I would like to have a different emoticon for expressing frustration, but we could even misuse a smilie hitting his head against a wall and still end up offending someone.

[MariaRegina]

Who posted that it's never a sin!

Look like we have a heretic in our midst! :eek:

[Matthias]

I vote no.

[MariaRegina]

Well, I thought the question, "Did Jesus ever use sarcasm" was interesting, so I went looking.

I'd venture to say that whether or not sarcasm is sinful does depend on the context, and on the intent of the one who's using it. Jesus used it in this instance as a literary device (employing hyperbole) to drive home a point, and probably got a few sheepish grins.

As for the rolleyes emoticon, I think it's not evil in and of itself; again, it depends upon how we use it. I would like to have a different emoticon for expressing frustration, but we could even misuse a smilie hitting his head against a wall and still end up offending someone.


How could we misuse a head banging smilie?

[MariaRegina]

"How can you say to your brother, `Brother, let me take the speck out of your eye,' when you yourself fail to see the plank in your own eye?"

Luke 6:42a

This is more of a metaphor, not sarcasm, isn't it?

[countrymousenc]

Who posted that it's never a sin!

Look like we have a heretic in our midst! :eek:


:confused:

[countrymousenc]

This is more of a metaphor, not sarcasm, isn't it?


I suppose it depends upon how you look at it. :)

[Oblio]

cm,

I think you are on to something WRT plank sarcasm :)
Of course it may have been that He was trying to reach a bored audience.

[MariaRegina]

Christ spoke in very colorful language. Aren't these metaphors:

"Brood of vipers"

"Whitewashed sepulchres"

[Rilian]

A lot to do with sarcasm has to do with tone and facial expressions, so it's hard to draw sarcasm directly from the written word. The plank and speck passage sounds a little sarcastic to me though.

[I was also going to add the church fathers themselves could sometimes be quite sarcastic.]

[nikephoros_spatharios]

I agree with the use of sarcasm, and I don't consider sarcasm to be a sin per se.

[MariaRegina]

I agree with the use of sarcasm, and I don't consider sarcasm to be a sin per se.

Thanks for changing your font - now I can read your posts.
:clap: :prayer:

[MariaRegina]

I agree with the use of sarcasm, and I don't consider sarcasm to be a sin per se.


I guess the use of food can never reach gluttony?

Or the level of wine consumed can never reach drunkenness?

[Momzilla]

Okay, here's my example. Let's say I have a friend who wins a million dollars. She says she's going to give away $1,000. I think she needs to give more than that, but I know that if I tell her so directly, she'll get defensive and nothing will be accomplished. So instead I say something like, "Whoa, now! Keep a little for yourself!"

I have clearly used sarcasm, but provided my tone is appropriate (chiding her lovingly instead of expressing disdain), I don't think what I've done is a sin.

[xenia]

Whenever I have tried sarcasm, it has always backfired. My cleverness always looked mean-spirited when I thought about it later. So, I try to stay away from sarcasm because I'm not very good at it.

Love, Xenia

[twosid]

I still view sarcasm as sinful.You must think I'm the devil himself then.

/me with great restraint...resists putting the rolling eyes smiley at the end of that sentence. :)

[MariaRegina]

You must think I'm the devil himself then.

* twosid with great restraint...resists putting the rolling eyes smiley at the end of that sentence. :)

I guess you must be a person who has great restraint and is able to avoid sin when using sarcasm. How great a linguist you must be!

[twosid]

I guess you must be a person who has great restraint and is able to avoid sin when using sarcasm. How great a linguist you must be!
Not at all...but you sound almost legalistic about it. I'm not being ugly...it sounds that way to me though.

[MariaRegina]

Not at all...but you sound almost legalistic about it. I'm not being ugly...it sounds that way to me though.

No, my Orthodox Priest said that the tongue probably condemns more people to hell than any other part of the body. He is quite strict about observing silence.

[Moros]

Even God has a sense of humor. Just look at the Platypus.

[MariaRegina]

Even God has a sense of humor. Just look at the Platypus.

Agreed.

You must have enjoyed the Oh God movies. Look at the giraffe. However, what does the giraffe and the platypus have to do with sarcasm. They cannot speak like Homo sapiens.

We have an Orthodox Humor thread here in TAW. One can have a great sense of humor without using sarcasm.

[Suzannah]

Christian use of sarcasm in a good way:

From the book: The Forgotten Medicine, the Mystery of Repentence by Archimandrite Seraphim Aleksiev:

Paraphrased: A woman who is returning to the church goes to a friend and says
"I have to go to confession and I just don't know what to say. There is so much and it would take hours."

The friend says "That's easy. Just say 'I'm guilty of EVERYTHING'".

Woman goes to her Priest and says "Father, I am guilty of EVERYTHING"

Priest sighs, and is quiet for a moment. Then he says,
"Have returned the horse you stole from Alexei Schmeyev?" (I just looked for a Russian name in my telephone book. :P)

Woman looks at Priest, aghast and horrified! "Father I have never stolen any horse! I'm not a thief!"

Priest says, "You see, you are not guilty of EVERYTHING."

Wise Priest that one! ^_^

[MariaRegina]

Here's a sense of humor without sarcasm:

I was attending Paska services at St. Nicholas Cathedral in Washington,DC. Metro Theo was censing the crowd (way before the "fall" of the USSR but still jammed packed) and one of the young ladies standing a few feet away bowed her head as she was blessing herself. Her nicely couffed and moussed hair swing into the candle flame and POOF!!!!

It was like watching a PEPSI commercial with Michael Jackson. There was a flurry of activity as various members of the congregation began to beat her furiously with prayer books and bulletins to put out the flames.

All I could think of was Michael Jackson singing JUST BEAT IT.....

I had to leave the church because I was shaking so much....

I came back a few minutes later and couldn't find the ikonstas. One of the servers had put "extra" incense in the kadila to cover up the singed hair and burned mousse smell. You could have smoked kolbass & shunka in the Cathedral that night!!!

Still chuckling here....

mark

[MariaRegina]

Christian use of sarcasm in a good way:

From the book: The Forgotten Medicine, the Mystery of Repentence by Archimandrite Seraphim Aleksiev:

Paraphrased: A woman who is returning to the church goes to a friend and says
"I have to go to confession and I just don't know what to say. There is so much and it would take hours."

The friend says "That's easy. Just say 'I'm guilty of EVERYTHING'".

Woman goes to her Priest and says "Father, I am guilty of EVERYTHING"

Priest sighs, and is quiet for a moment. Then he says,
"Have returned the horse you stole from Alexei Schmeyev?" (I just looked for a Russian name in my telephone book. :P)

Woman looks at Priest, aghast and horrified! "Father I have never stolen any horse! I'm not a thief!"

Priest says, "You see, you are not guilty of EVERYTHING."

Wise Priest that one! ^_^

LOL

It's getting late -- where's the sarcasm here?

[Suzannah]

Well, in my opinion, he set her up, and the sarcasm is "You see, you are NOT guilty of EVERYTHING".

[MariaRegina]

Well, in my opinion, he set her up, and the sarcasm is "You see, you are NOT guilty of EVERYTHING".

Yes, he did teach her a lesson, but he didn't set her up. She was ripe for the fall. She wanted an easy confession without pain. Confession is like surgery -- it is painful. All our sins must be confessed and specifically named.

We in confession are to be honest. The priest doesn't want to hear a general confession like "I have sinned." We all sin.

He will ask us to name sins but not go into detail. If we say that we broke all the ten commandments, that's too general. We can all sin in thought and violate every one of the 10 commandments, so do you see that he was teaching her to be more specific.

[Matrona]

Some weeks ago, I was helping my parish priest prepare the church for an adult catechumen's baptism. Since mine's a small parish, he could easily remember baptizing me, and since my baptism was only the year before, and I was 19 at the time, I remember my own baptism pretty well too. So as we were setting things up, he asked me kind of jokingly if this was bringing back any memories for me, and in the same joking tone I said, "Barely!" :holy:

This, I believe, is sarcasm's innocent form. :)

[nikephoros_spatharios]

I guess the use of food can never reach gluttony?

Or the level of wine consumed can never reach drunkenness?
Sarcasm can be sinful, but it is not one of those things that are always sinful. Hence, it is not sinful in itself, but depending on context. Murder for example is always sinful, whereas love is always sinless. Sarcasm is sometimes sinful and sometimes not.

Being sarcastic against someone who can't solve a math problem for example is mean and sinful (IMO). Being sarcastic of heretics may not be sinful, e.g., if it helps those who hear you realize how foolish they are, and brings them closer to right belief. In many Church Fathers, e.g., we see sarcasm against astrology or other superstitions.

[MariaRegina]

Some weeks ago, I was helping my parish priest prepare the church for an adult catechumen's baptism. Since mine's a small parish, he could easily remember baptizing me, and since my baptism was only the year before, and I was 19 at the time, I remember my own baptism pretty well too. So as we were setting things up, he asked me kind of jokingly if this was bringing back any memories for me, and in the same joking tone I said, "Barely!" :holy:

This, I believe, is sarcasm's innocent form. :)

Again from a linguistic point of view, this is not sarcasm. Perhaps a mild form of bantering, but not a biting sarcastic style.

[MariaRegina]

Sarcasm can be sinful, but it is not one of those things that are always sinful. Hence, it is not sinful in itself, but depending on context. Murder for example is always sinful, whereas love is always sinless. Sarcasm is sometimes sinful and sometimes not.

Being sarcastic against someone who can't solve a math problem for example is mean and sinful (IMO). Being sarcastic of heretics may not be sinful, e.g., if it helps those who hear you realize how foolish they are, and brings them closer to right belief. In many Church Fathers, e.g., we see sarcasm against astrology or other superstitions.

Can you give an example of the use of sarcasm in the Church Fathers?

I think perhaps St. Basil did engage in sarcasm when he was younger, but repented of it as he grew older and wiser.

[MariaRegina]

I wonder about the person who said it was sinful to be sarcastic with Orthodox Christians but not sinful to be sarcastic with the non-Orthodox Christians. Does this same person believe that one can be sarcastic with Catholics, Protestants, Jews, and Muslims as long as one is charitable with Orthodox Christians?

Did he/she forget that Christ said to love our enemies? If we are sarcastic with our enemies, are we being loving toward them?

[nikephoros_spatharios]

Can you give an example of the use of sarcasm in the Church Fathers?

I think perhaps St. Basil did engage in sarcasm when he was younger, but repented of it as he grew older and wiser.
How about this? In my opinion, this is sarcasm:


http://www.fordham.edu/halsall/source/chrysostom-jews6.html#HOMILY_I

(2) Look at it in another way. What sort of ark is it that the Jews now have, where we find no propitiatory, no tables of the law, no holy of holies, no veil, no high priest, no incense, no holocaust, no sacrifice, none of the other things that made the ark of old solemn and august? It seems to me that the ark the Jews now have is no better off than those toy arks which you can buy in the market place. in fact it is much worse. Those little toy arks cannot hurt anybody who comes close to them. But the ark which the Jews now have does great harm each day to those who come near it.

[Momzilla]

Chanter (or anyone else), any thoughts on the example that I offered?

[countrymousenc]

I guess you must be a person who has great restraint and is able to avoid sin when using sarcasm. How great a linguist you must be!

Elizabeth, this sounds sarcastic to me. Of course, you may not have intended it as such.

Right now I'm having difficulty not using the rolleyes in response to this entire thread. :sigh:

This seems rather petty. Sorry.

[twosid]

You also have to be careful to not take what God may be doing in your life and try to force it on others. God does different things with different people at different times and it won't work to try and force any issue on someone by insisting that they see what you see. Your spirit and its current condition is in a different state than everyone elses and only when/if theirs gets to where yours is on a particular point will you see eye to eye. I'm not saying you are doing this....its just a thought.

[MariaRegina]

Okay, here's my example. Let's say I have a friend who wins a million dollars. She says she's going to give away $1,000. I think she needs to give more than that, but I know that if I tell her so directly, she'll get defensive and nothing will be accomplished. So instead I say something like, "Whoa, now! Keep a little for yourself!"

I have clearly used sarcasm, but provided my tone is appropriate (chiding her lovingly instead of expressing disdain), I don't think what I've done is a sin.

Pardon me for saying this, but from a linguistic point of view (semantics/pragmatics) the sentence that you've written here is very ambiguous. Only when uttered will the true meaning come out due to inflections in the voice along with the general ascending or descending patterns.

(a) Whoa, now! Keep a little for yourself! - literally means 'Stop, before you consider giving away all your money, keep some for yourself."

(b) Whoa, now! Keep a little for yourself! - literally can mean the same as the first example. = save a little money for yourself.

(c) Whoa, now! Keep a little for yourself! - here it can have sarcastic overtones, but not very clear ones, as not everyone would get the point. If they did get the intended point, then this utterance could be considered very bossy and sinful, as the money is theirs to spend as they please.

In this case, silence is golden. Silence can say more than words. Silence can save face but at the same time point out that something is wrong.

Do you see the point I am trying to make? I guess I can be considered bossy for bringing up this whole thread idea. However, I did so because I noticed a particular trend among some of us to use sarcasm with those of different religions, and to think that it's not a sin. *

My priest said that we should treat all men with charity, even those who would kill us. Christ asked us: love your enemies, do good to those who hate you. For what does it profit a man to give when he can expect something in return. (paraphrasing the Bible).

Controlling my tongue is something I am trying to do, although I do admit that I struggle greatly in this area. Someone wrote that the tongue is the most difficult part of the body to learn to control, if we ever learn to control it in this lifetime.

* P.S. Then there is the pernicious thinking that ignorance is bliss. Well, according to the State and Federal Laws, if you violate the law due to lack of knowledge, even if a parking sign is totally covered by a tree maintained by the city, you have still violated the law and must pay the penalty.

[MariaRegina]

I guess you must be a person who has great restraint and is able to avoid sin when using sarcasm. How great a linguist you must be!

Elizabeth, this sounds sarcastic to me. Of course, you may not have intended it as such.


Dear Dianne:

I wrote the above in frustration, not sarcasm. I am a linguist and realize how difficult it is to write and especially to speak clear utterances which avoid all ambiguity and sarcasm. For me it's impossible, but with God all things are possible; hence, the necessity of prayer and fasting to learn to control my tongue. For this reason I find myself continually editing my posts so that my message is clear and honest, charitable and polite, brief, and relevant to the conversation at hand (following Grice's four maxims of conversation: clarity, relevance, quality and quantity).

Lovingly yours in Christ our God,
Elizabeth

[MariaRegina]

How about this? In my opinion, this is sarcasm:

http://www.fordham.edu/halsall/sour...6.html#HOMILY_I

(2) Look at it in another way. What sort of ark is it that the Jews now have, where we find no propitiatory, no tables of the law, no holy of holies, no veil, no high priest, no incense, no holocaust, no sacrifice, none of the other things that made the ark of old solemn and august? It seems to me that the ark the Jews now have is no better off than those toy arks which you can buy in the market place. in fact it is much worse. Those little toy arks cannot hurt anybody who comes close to them. But the ark which the Jews now have does great harm each day to those who come near it.


Dear Oblio: Could you comment on the Fordham file - is this even considered accurate or is it a forgery?

Dear Nikephoros:

Perhaps if you look at St. John's sermon about the Empress you might find some sarcasm, perhaps not. St. John openly corrected the Empress for vanity during one of his sermons. Since this was a public correction, it's probably not considered sarcasm. I think we tend to confuse sarcasm with a correction.

Any way the story goes that the Empress was very vain and had a carving of her bust displayed everywhere in Constantinople. So St. John Chrysostom gave a sermon on humility and used her as an example of what not to do. For this he was exiled and died shortly after.

Hope this helps.
Elizabeth

[MariaRegina]

My purpose in starting this thread was to search with you and see if sarcasm is always sinful. My hypothesis is that it's not sinful if used to humble oneself, but it probably is if we direct sarcasm against another.

[Momzilla]

Pardon me for saying this, but from a linguistic point of view (semantics/pragmatics) the sentence that you've written here is very ambiguous. Only when uttered will the true meaning come out due to inflections in the voice along with the general ascending or descending patterns.

(c) Whoa, now! Keep a little for yourself! - here it can have sarcastic overtones, but not very clear ones, as not everyone would get the point. If they did get the intended point, then this utterance could be considered very bossy and sinful, as the money is theirs to spend as they please.



I think we are going to have to agree to disagree. If I were actually in the situation I described, I would most likely use inflection c, and I think it would quite clearly be sarcasm. However, I don't think it would *necessarily* be sinful. Yes, the money is hers to do with as she pleases, but if I see her acting out of greed, do I not have a duty to suggest to her that giving away more might be better? And should I not do it in the most loving and yet effective way I can?

So, I stand by my view that sarcasm is not always sin.

[MariaRegina]

I think we are going to have to agree to disagree. If I were actually in the situation I described, I would most likely use inflection c, and I think it would quite clearly be sarcasm. However, I don't think it would *necessarily* be sinful. Yes, the money is hers to do with as she pleases, but if I see her acting out of greed, do I not have a duty to suggest to her that giving away more might be better? And should I not do it in the most loving and yet effective way I can?

So, I stand by my view that sarcasm is not always sin.

Can youplease rephrase your declaration so that it is not sarcastic and still saves face without being bossy? Bossiness is butting into another's affairs without being invited to do so.

Linguists say that this is very difficult to do but the use of silence and nonverbals can help.

If you find an answer, please let me know for the benefit of all of us. I especialy would like to know.

[countrymousenc]

My purpose in starting this thread was to search with you and see if sarcasm is always sinful.
Nothing wrong with that, but would you be interested to hear how your arguments have looked to another?

My hypothesis is that it's not sinful if used to humble oneself, but it probably is if we direct sarcasm against another.

Against another, yes. However, I sometimes use sarcasm with my children to get a point across - not as an attack, but to bypass what we moms call "convenient hearing loss." The point is to redirect their attention (and it usually gets a grin, too).

Perhaps this thread went awry because we all neglected to first agree about a definition of sarcasm?

[Momzilla]

Can youplease rephrase your declaration so that it is not sarcastic and still saves face without being bossy? Bossiness is butting into another's affairs without being invited to do so.

Linguists say that this is very difficult to do but the use of silence and nonverbals can help.

If you find an answer, please let me know for the benefit of all of us. I especialy would like to know.

Well of course I can: "Dear friend, I know that it's none of my business how you spend your winnings, but $1 million is a lot of money; perhaps you would consider giving away more than $1,000?"

But, I thought you had asked me for an example of sarcasm that is not sinful. I did my best to come up with one; we just disagree about whether I succeeded or not.

It also seems that we disagree about whether one christian can butt into the affairs of another, I think we have an affirmative duty to do so when we see a Christian brother or sister going astray. That, however, is another thread.

[MariaRegina]

Well of course I can: "Dear friend, I know that it's none of my business how you spend your winnings, but $1 million is a lot of money; perhaps you would consider giving away more than $1,000?"

But, I thought you had asked me for an example of sarcasm that is not sinful. I did my best to come up with one; we just disagree about whether I succeeded or not.

It also seems that we disagree about whether one christian can butt into the affairs of another, I think we have an affirmative duty to do so when we see a Christian brother or sister going astray. That, however, is another thread.

We do have an obligation to correct - to save others from hell - but the question is how to do it politely and lovingly.

I guess our basic premise is different. You feel that sarcasm can be done in a correct non-sinful way. I feel it's rare if at all possible.

Does anyone have a prescriptive English Grammar book that defines sarcasm?
How do the scholars view sarcasm? How does the Church view sarcasm? Most importantly, how does Christ view the use of sarcasm?

Honestly, I don't really know these answers.

Lovingly yours in Christ our God,
Elizabeth

[Photini]

I think I remember a quote somewhere addressing sarcasm. I tried to dig it up a few months ago, but could not find it. Maybe I'll try again.

I don't really know, and can't say for anyone else. But for me, taking my past into account, sarcasm is a passion. I've always had a dry sense of humor, and sometimes people don't know whether to laugh at something I just said or not.
Furthermore, I discovered many underhanded uses for sarcasm along the way.

So while it may not be a sin all the time (I don't know), I believe sarcasm is more apt to be sinful than otherwise.

BTW, how can someone use sarcasm to humble oneself? I don't understand that.

[MariaRegina]

BTW, how can someone use sarcasm to humble oneself? I don't understand that.

Making belitting remarks about oneself when someone else attempts flattery.

[Photini]

Making belitting remarks about oneself when someone else attempts flattery.
Another question-- does this really effectively aid in becoming humble?

[Matrona]

Another question-- does this really effectively aid in becoming humble?
I think self-deprecation can be a form of arrogance. Self-deprecation can be used a way of fishing for compliments while attempting to put on an air of personal humility.

Except for me, that is--my self-deprecation is just telling it like it is.

;)

[twosid]

Except for me, that is--my self-deprecation is just telling it like it is.;)
Nobody belittles themselves quite as well as you. :clap:

[MariaRegina]

Another question-- does this really effectively aid in becoming humble?

It is said if you can joke about yourself, then life is easier for everyone.

[Photini]

It is said if you can joke about yourself, then life is easier for everyone.
Sure. But I've never looked at that really as sarcasm.

[nikephoros_spatharios]

Dear Oblio: Could you comment on the Fordham file - is this even considered accurate or is it a forgery?

This is the original Greek text. The English translation appears to be accurate.

"Allôs de, poia
kibôtos nun para Ioudaiois, hopou hilastêrion ouk
estin, hopou ou chrismos, ou diathêkês plakes, ou ta
hagia tôn hagiôn, ou to katapetasma, ouk archiereus,
ou thumiama, ouch holokautôsis, ou thusia, ou ta alla (35)
ta poiounta semnên tên kibôton tote ekeinên? Emoi
tôn epi tês agoras pôloumenôn kibôtiôn ouden amei-
non hautê hê kibôtos diakeisthai dokei, alla kai pollôi
cheiron. Kai gar tous pariontas ouden men tauta bla-
psai dunatai, ekeinê de pollên kath' hêmeran tois (40)
autêi prosiousin ergazetai blabên."

[countrymousenc]

Dear Dianne:

I wrote the above in frustration, not sarcasm. I am a linguist and realize how difficult it is to write and especially to speak clear utterances which avoid all ambiguity and sarcasm. For me it's impossible, but with God all things are possible; hence, the necessity of prayer and fasting to learn to control my tongue. For this reason I find myself continually editing my posts so that my message is clear and honest, charitable and polite, brief, and relevant to the conversation at hand (following Grice's four maxims of conversation: clarity, relevance, quality and quantity).

Lovingly yours in Christ our God,
Elizabeth

I appreciate the explanation. We still don't have a working definition of sarcasm upon which we have all agreed, so it is not yet possible for us to draw a unified conclusion or even discuss this logically.

Second, you "wrote this in frustration, not sarcasm." "Frustration" in this sentence has to do with your emotional state, not whether you actually engaged in sarcasm, whatever your intent may have been. Intentions do not necessarily determine outcome.

Since you are a linguist, you should be able to provide us with a definition of sarcasm from an authoritative source. We can compare it to what we've been thinking, and to what our dictionaries say, and come to an agreement. Then it will make sense to continue discussing whether sarcasm is always sinful.

[Michael the Iconographer]

To me satire and sarcasm are different. Satire to me is good and healthy, because it helps us remember we are people. I have a hard time remembering that at times. It reminds us that even if we practice the true faith, we sometimes do silly things. That is why I LOVE TheOnionDome so much, because he author of that site does such a good job showing the funnier side of the serious matter of Orthodoxy. Sarcasm to me is acidic, and is usually said with a bit of fire to it. I have a real hard time with it and so atleast to me, it is not good for me to be making sarcastic remarks about people and things.

[MariaRegina]

To me satire and sarcasm are different. Satire to me is good and healthy, because it helps us remember we are people. I have a hard time remembering that at times. It reminds us that even if we practice the true faith, we sometimes do silly things. That is why I LOVE TheOnionDome so much, because he author of that site does such a good job showing the funnier side of the serious matter of Orthodoxy. Sarcasm to me is acidic, and is usually said with a bit of fire to it. I have a real hard time with it and so atleast to me, it is not good for me to be making sarcastic remarks about people and things.

Very well stated.

Paula had this to say:


The word sarcasm is from the Greek sarkasmos, meaning to tear flesh, bite the lips in rage, sneer, Note that Webster's has two definitions for sarcasm:

1 : a sharp and often satirical or ironic utterance designed to cut or give pain

2 a : a mode of satirical wit depending for its effect on bitter, caustic, and often ironic language that is usually directed against an individual b : the use or language of sarcasm


I will check the definitive dictionary used by linguists: the Oxford English Dictionary and see how it describes sarcasm.

[MariaRegina]

Heads up

We just got a new smilie to replace that sarcastic rollyeyed thing.

Welcome aboard :doh:

Thank your Erwin! He's so cute.

http://www.christianforums.com/showthread.php?p=8021310#post8021310