There is an elephant in this room . . .

[LuxPerpetua]

so let's not beat around the bush:

I feel I have the right to know . . . what the heck is this debate about the Lutheran hymnal? I've heard you guys and gals mention this a few times on this board.

Just curious. :P

[ChiRho]

There is a movement within the LCMS to "modernize" our hymnal with hymns that directly go against our Confessions and Scripture. Pastor Brondos (my Pastor) was actually on the board which decided on the material that would make the new hymnal. When he expressed his concern for the hymn selection, they asked him to leave. I have two fantastic essays written by good Confessional Lutherans that I will send along with the books.

Pax Christi,

ChiRho

[LuxPerpetua]

Thanks, ChiRho.

Which is the old hymnal--red or green??

Also, in general, what kind of things did they want to put in the new hymnal that would go against the Confessions?

[Lotar]

It's blue ;)

I haven't really heard much about the debate with the new hymnal.

[Lexluther]

Thanks, ChiRho.

Which is the old hymnal--red or green??

Also, in general, what kind of things did they want to put in the new hymnal that would go against the Confessions?
Red is the oldest one, I can't remember it being used, the green (Lutheran Book of Worship) having been adopted by the time I started paying any attention. The newest one is blue. I like it. Only modern in a Lutheran sense, I can't imagine it to be subversive.

[ByzantineDixie]

Ya--what debate are we talking about?

Would this be the NEWEST hymnal not yet released?

Or in reference to the debate surrounding the GREEN hymnal which I believe is called the Lutheran Book of Worship and was originally started as a collaborative effort with the ELCA then the LCMS pulled out of the deal and compiled the BLUE, Lutheran Worship book. But that's old stuff...happened several decades ago. :confused:

I have no knowledge of any debate surrounding the new hymnal...I know some people think we need to change the way we think about a hymnal. Use more electronic media. Update more frequently. Add some more modern songs...etc. But I didn't know this was causing a ruckus, too! :sigh:

I think the real elephant in the room is the upcoming LCMS elections. Fortunately the impact of the ugliness is not felt at the congregational level (for the most part) but unfortunately it is causing damage to the clergy of our synod and to the fellowship therein.

Here are two links to sites which represent the opposing points of view.

http://www.crisisinthelcms.org/
http://www.jesusfirst.net/

We aren't having to face serious issues like homosexual clergy or even women pastors...but we are having a political field day over some other things. :(

I have kept the upcoming convention in my prayers. I ask that you all do so as well. Let's not pursue what WE want or think is right. Let's pray that GOD's will is done. If HIS will is pursued...we know the outcome will be far better than anything we could devise. :prayer:

There...that's the only elephant I know about.

Love

Rose

[Phoebe]

The LBW (green) has been in use for 25 years. This is the one that was supposed to have been adopted by LCMS also.

It was prepared by the churches participating in the Inter- Lutheran Commission on Worship. Those were the LCA, ALC, ELCA, and LCMS. It was published by Augsburg Publishing House, Minnesota.

[Flipper]

I guess there's nothing to debate about in our church - we don't use a hymnal. Our services are (God forbid) contemporary in style and music.

[ByzantineDixie]

I guess there's nothing to debate about in our church - we don't use a hymnal. Our services are (God forbid) contemporary in style and music.

It's OK, Flipper. God doesn't forbid contemporary style and music...but some people do! ;)

Rose

[Mr.PotatoHead]

i dont know of a debate about hymnals. WHY HAVNT I BEEN INFORMED OF THIS??????? And what does this have to do with elephants????

[Lotar]

To steal somebody's line:

GIVE ME LITURGY OR GIVE ME DEATH!!!

:P

[Music4Hym777]

Okay the old debate was definately the Red and Green Hymnals

But I think that there is some debate between the LBW and WOV(the Blue Hymnal). I know that the LCMS church around here uses the WOV and the ELCA church uses the LBW. There is even one church that uses the red hymnal (sorry, dont remember the name of that one).

Tata for now,
Monica

[Phoebe]

ELCA also uses WOV. Maybe that's the debate? ;)

[Lexluther]

It strikes me that if no one can figure out what the debate is, it's not much of a debate. ;)

[GlowingFirefly]

My church uses the LBW and WOV as well as a new hymnal, HS. Just curious if anyone uses HS, it's a maroon hymal that's about the same size as the blue one. :)

[ChiRho]

Ya--what debate are we talking about?

Would this be the NEWEST hymnal not yet released?

Or in reference to the debate surrounding the GREEN hymnal which I believe is called the Lutheran Book of Worship and was originally started as a collaborative effort with the ELCA then the LCMS pulled out of the deal and compiled the BLUE, Lutheran Worship book. But that's old stuff...happened several decades ago. :confused:

I have no knowledge of any debate surrounding the new hymnal...I know some people think we need to change the way we think about a hymnal. Use more electronic media. Update more frequently. Add some more modern songs...etc. But I didn't know this was causing a ruckus, too! :sigh:

I think the real elephant in the room is the upcoming LCMS elections. Fortunately the impact of the ugliness is not felt at the congregational level (for the most part) but unfortunately it is causing damage to the clergy of our synod and to the fellowship therein.

Here are two links to sites which represent the opposing points of view.

http://www.crisisinthelcms.org/
http://www.jesusfirst.net/

We aren't having to face serious issues like homosexual clergy or even women pastors...but we are having a political field day over some other things. :(

I have kept the upcoming convention in my prayers. I ask that you all do so as well. Let's not pursue what WE want or think is right. Let's pray that GOD's will is done. If HIS will is pursued...we know the outcome will be far better than anything we could devise. :prayer:

There...that's the only elephant I know about.

Love

Rose

While I was speaking of the new hymnal that hasnt been released yet, I think Rose, most correctly identified the true elephant of the LCMS. The results of the upcoming election could determine much of the future of the LCMS. A wild hunch has me thinking I am probably standing with the minority on who should be the next president. Anyway, my confidence is in Christ, that regardless of the outcome, Christ will use it for His good.

If anyone would like to read some literature regarding the hymn selection process, and what actually a Lutheran hymn should confess, let me know.

Pax Christi,

ChiRho

[ByzantineDixie]

Anyway, my confidence is in Christ, that regardless of the outcome, Christ will use it for His good.

Absolutely. Of this I have NO unwavering doubt. I'd just hope to avoid birthing any Ishmaels. But you are right...even the Ishmaels can not stand in the way of Romans 8:28.

If anyone would like to read some literature regarding the hymn selection process, and what actually a Lutheran hymn should confess, let me know.


I am EXTREMELY interested...could you post something here so we learn and discuss?

Peace

Rose

[ChiRho]

Absolutely. Of this I have NO unwavering doubt. I'd just hope to avoid birthing any Ishmaels. But you are right...even the Ishmaels can not stand in the way of Romans 8:28.



I am EXTREMELY interested...could you post something here so we learn and discuss?

Peace

Rose

I would in a heartbeat, but they are just too long for posting. I could probably start a thread and type a couple sections a day. Would you be interested in that? I would want the thread to be uninterrupted (without comments), at least until it was finished though. These essay's are not that long, just too long for posting in their entirety.

Anything for Mr. Rose! :)

*ChiRho sets a shiny apple on Mrs. Rose's desk*

Pax Christi,

ChiRho

[ByzantineDixie]

I would in a heartbeat, but they are just too long for posting. I could probably start a thread and type a couple sections a day. Would you be interested in that? I would want the thread to be uninterrupted (without comments), at least until it was finished though. These essay's are not that long, just too long for posting in their entirety.

Anything for Mr. Rose! :)

*ChiRho sets a shiny apple on Mrs. Rose's desk*

Pax Christi,

ChiRho

Sounds like a plan...you could post with a notice to please not comment until done or you could just type and save in your word processor and cut and paste when complete. Either way works. The first way does give us a chance to begin digesting the material instead of having to read a lot of information all at once. My attention span isn't what it used to be....

:::Mrs. Rose takes a bite of a shiny apple she finds sitting on her desk and reflects on the good ole days before her children destroyed her mind ;) :::

Peace

Rose

[JVAC]

i dont know of a debate about hymnals. WHY HAVNT I BEEN INFORMED OF THIS??????? And what does this have to do with elephants????
Because, your too young :D. (I don't get to say that much)

However, the debate in question is the old debate about switchinf from "Lutheran Service Book" (or was it Lutheran Hymnal, Lutheran Worship?? It has been a while...) to the "Lutheran Book of Worship", the preceeding being red and the latter green. This was a major conflict in most congregations, until the LCMS and WELS got their own books. However, it is still possible to see churches: "Grace Lutheran" in caldwell Idaho (LCMS) that still have both Red and Green books out. I think it is funny, keeps the visitor guessing, make-em work ;) .

-James

[theologia crucis]

I was looking for something else, but found this: http://www.lcms.org/pages/internal.asp?NavID=710

A Brief History of LCMS Hymnals

On April 26, 1997 The Lutheran Church-Missouri Synod celebrated the 150 years that it has existed under God's grace. To mark the occasion, this brief history of hymnals in the Synod was offered.

The author, Carl Schalk, is Distinguished Professor Emeritus at Concordia University, River Forest, Illinois. Schalk is both a composer of hymn tunes and an author of several books on Lutheran hymnals in America.

Like every group of immigrants who came to America in the 19th century, the German Lutherans brought with them the hymnals of their homelands. Hymnals from Dresden, Marburg, Schleswig, Pommerania, Prussia, Hamburg, Bavaria, and Osnabrueck could be found among the immigrants' treasured possessions.

According to August R. Suelflow, long-time director of Concordia Historical Institute, it would not have been unusual to find four, five, or even six different hymnals in use at one service in a Lutheran congregation. The wording of hymns in the various books was not always the same. Differences in doctrinal content added to the confusion.

The Synod's First Hymnal
The situation was no different among the Saxon immigrant communities in Missouri. In November, 1845, C.F.W. Walther, leader of the Saxon group and pastor of the "federated congregation" in St. Louis, brought the need for a single hymnal to the attention of his congregation.

According to an announcement in Der Lutheraner, the hymnal was to be compiled and edited by "several Lutheran pastors in Missouri." Exactly who they were is not certain, although it seems clear that Walther took the leading part. The hymnal, Kirchengesangbuch fuer Evangelisch-Lutherische Gemeinden ungeaenderter Augburgischer Confession, appeared in 1847, the same year as the founding of Synod. It contained 437 hymns, a selection of prayers, antiphons, the Preface, Luther's Small Catechism, and the Augsburg Confession.

In appreciation for his work in connection with the hymnbook, Walther's congregation gave him "five cords of winter wood together with a week's salary." The other pastors involved were to receive free copies of the hymnal for their families.

Begun before the Synod had been founded, Walther's hymnal was officially handed over to the church body by the St. Louis congregation in 1862. This collection--virtually unchanged--was to serve in the German services of the Lutheran Church--Missouri Synod until the transition to the English language.

Walther's hymnbook, containing only texts, attempted to recover the original forms of the texts, many of which had been altered in the intervening centuries. But Walther and his circle also looked to the Reformation to recover the earlier forms of the hymn melodies which had also undergone significant changes over time. The use of the earlier melodic forms would also, it was felt, help reinvigorate congregational singing, helping it recover from the abysmal state into which it had fallen by the middle of the 19th century.

But congregations had to re-learn these older melodies. As a result, already in 1849 Walther's congregation organized regular practice sessions, resolving that "in order to practice the old chorales as they are found in Layriz' Choralbuch, singing periods will be held weekly, Thursday evening above and Friday evening below, from seven to eight o'clock beginning this week."

Music for the organist was provided in separate collections drawn largely from the pioneering work of the German pastor and musicologist Friedrich Layriz. These included the Evangelisch-Lutherisches Choralbuch fuer Kirche und Haus (1863), but especially Heinrich Hoelte's Choralbuch (1886) and Karl Brauer's Mehrstimmiges Choralbuch (1888).

Early English Hymnals
While the greater part of the missionary effort of the Synod in the 1800s was directed to the constant stream of German immigrants flocking to America, the need for English services and an English hymnody was increasingly apparent. Some congregations were beginning to hold occasional English services. English mission festivals were not uncommon.

The transition to the English language began already in the late 1800s. With no English hymn collection readily available, Walther encouraged the use of a small English hymnal--Hymn Book for the use of Evangelical Lutheran Schools and Congregations--published in 1879 by the Norwegians in Decorah, Iowa. Edited and translated by Prof. August Crull of Concordia College, Ft. Wayne, it contained 130 hymns and ten doxologies.

Soon other small English collections began to appear. Their titles indicated the use for which they were intended. These included Lutheran Hymns: For the Use of English Lutheran Missions (1882) containing 18 hymns texts and 15 melodies, and Hymns of the Evangelical Lutheran Church: For the Use of English Lutheran Missions (1886) containing 33 hymns and melodies. A larger collection entitled Hymns for Evangelical Lutheran Missions (1905) contained 199 hymns without music together with some liturgical orders. These early collections were tentative experiments in the period of transition.

The first major effort toward an English hymn book was the work, once again, of August Crull. It was presented to the English Lutheran Conference of Missouri and published in Baltimore as the Evangelical Lutheran Hymn Book (1889). A music edition of this collection was prepared and appeared as the Evangelical Lutheran Hymn-Book (1912). It became the first official English hymnal of the Synod. This music edition was later often referred to as the "old green hymnal" after the color of its binding.

These early English collections reflect a resolve to transmit the heritage of the Lutheran chorale--both words and music--to a new generation, but now in a new language. While some of these early translations may seem quaint to us today, those early leaders made the attempt. Each successive generation has worked to improve these translations so that new generations might continue to sing the heritage of the chorale in the English language.

The Lutheran Hymnal and Lutheran Worship
In 1929 the Synod authorized a revision of the Evangelical Lutheran Hymn-Book with the hope that it might become the English hymn book for the Synodical Conference. The following year an inter-synodical committee began work culminating in the publication of The Lutheran Hymnal (1941), a collection which, the title page indicated, was "Authorized by the Synods Constituting the Evangelical Lutheran Synodical Conference of North America." Initially bound in blue, it was popularly known as the "blue hymnal."

More than a generation following the appearance of The Lutheran Hymnal, new social and religious concerns made the need for updating liturgical and hymnic materials necessary. The result was the publication of Worship Supplement (1969) which made available new hymnic and liturgical materials in the interim between the Lutheran Hymnal and the projected joint hymnal for all Lutherans, work on which had begun in 1966.

In 1965 the Synod had invited all Lutherans in America to join together in the production of common worship materials, an invitation ultimately accepted by the great majority of Lutherans in America. It was hoped that a single Lutheran hymn book for all Lutherans in America would result. The Inter-Lutheran Commission on Worship was formed in 1966 to carry out this project. After over a decade of work they published the Lutheran Book of Worship (1978). One year after its publication, the Synod determined to publish its own revision of the Lutheran Book of Worship, appearing three years later as Lutheran Worship (1982).

Today, 15 years after the publication of Lutheran Worship, the Synod is in the process of preparing a hymn supplement which is scheduled to appear in 1998. Recently the Synod's Commission on Worship announced its intention to begin work toward the publication of a new hymnal to serve yet another generation of worshippers.

--------------------------------------------------------------------------------

For additional information on the history of Lutheran hymnody in America, see the following books by Schalk:

God's Song in a New Land: Lutheran Hymnals in America (CPH, 1995)
Source Documents in American Lutheran Hymnody (CPH, 1996)
The Roots of Hymnody in the Lutheran Church--Missouri Synod: The Story of Congregational Song--the Hymnals and the Chorale Books from the Saxon Immigration to the Present (CPH, 1965)