celtic beliefs and Christianity

[maychild76]

hello all,

I am new to this site, and am wondering if any could enlighten me on Celtic connections to Chrisitanity. I have looked all over the net, and am not entirely convinced that Celtic beliefs are nothing more than pagan. I can find no Chrisitna reference at all.
We are studying Celtic prayer at the moment in our ladies Bible study, which prompted me to look it up.
Thanks !

[sarahbug]

Welcome to CF maychild! :wave: As for your question, I'm not sure. I always assumed Celtic beliefs were for the most part pagan. I'll see what I can find about it, and share anything I dig up. :)

[sarahbug]

You might try this site..http://www2.gol.com/users/stuart/celtihs.html It might answer some of your questions.

[sarahbug]

Here's a great article I found, I actually like it better than the site I posted above: http://www.christianitytoday.com/ct/2000/005/2.78.html

[Suzannah]

I'm Irish by birth and "life in general". I would be happy to answer but only pm, because this seems to be a Protestant forum. :)

Love in Christ,
Suzannah

[sarahbug]

Suzannah, I might have to pm you about it sometime too. I'm American, but have Irish roots, so I think it would be neat to learn more. :)

[Celticflower]

I have found that often when people refer to Celtic Christians they make note of the fact that the early converts modeled their daily lives after the pattern and rhythm of the monks (and the monasteries) who converted them. Which is why there seem to be Celtic prayers for everything and everytime of the day.
The Celts were pagan at first, unless you believe the theory that they were originally the Galations (who then migrated North and left their beliefs behind). Don't know enough to give an opinion on this tho'.

Flora

[PatrickM]

I have found that often when people refer to Celtic Christians they make note of the fact that the early converts modeled their daily lives after the pattern and rhythm of the monks (and the monasteries) who converted them. Which is why there seem to be Celtic prayers for everything and everytime of the day.
A great book on this is "How the Irish Saved Civilisation" by Thomas Cahill. He goes into great detail on the history of Celtic religion, and the conversion. A must read!
The Celts were pagan at first, unless you believe the theory that they were originally the Galations (who then migrated North and left their beliefs behind). Don't know enough to give an opinion on this tho'.
Flora
Have heard this too. A part of the Gauls became the Gaels on the islands or something to that effect.
I'm Irish by birth and "life in general". I would be happy to answer but only pm, because this seems to be a Protestant forum.

Love in Christ,
Suzannah
Hey, I'm US by birth, but at 3mos, da took us to "beautiful" W Belfast, his hometown. Spent some 10 yrs growin' up there, been back a few times (we consider us Irish!)

I'm not sure, but I think in the context of this thread, it might be ok to go into Celtic stuff. Give it a try, worse that can happen is get a pm from a mod. I don't think they'll "remand" you or anything like that! :D

[LADY DI]

Greetings!:wave:

I have read the book "How the Iriish Saved Civilisation" also, its a really good book-a must read!

A part of the Gauls became the Gaels on the islands or something to that effect
The ancient Celts were from Gaul which was the ancient name of France. And (Gaels) Gaelic is actually the Celtic language.
The ancient Celts lived mostly in Northern Spain and in Gaul (France), When Julius Caesar conquered Gaul, the Celts fled north and ended up in what is now Ireland and Scotland. Three million Celts were slaughtered by Julius Caesars troops when they were trying to flee, sad isnt it?:(
Since the 19th century the term "Celtic Christianity" has been referred to as a style of prayer and spirituality. Emphasizing the discernment of God in and through nature. The Irish have always have had a connection to nature. Celtic Christianity finds the beauty in Gods creation. The Irish are a very down to earth people, simple in their ways and it reflects in their beliefs.
I love the Irish people! And glad to have Irish roots!
Blessings,
Lady Di:angel:

[PatrickM]

Greetings!:wave:

I have read the book "How the Iriish Saved Civilisation" also, its a really good book-a must read!

A part of the Gauls became the Gaels on the islands or something to that effect
The ancient Celts were from Gaul which was the ancient name of France. And (Gaels) Gaelic is actually the Celtic language.
The ancient Celts lived mostly in Northern Spain and in Gaul (France), When Julius Caesar conquered Gaul, the Celts fled north and ended up in what is now Ireland and Scotland. Three million Celts were slaughtered by Julius Caesars troops when they were trying to flee, sad isnt it?:(
Since the 19th century the term "Celtic Christianity" has been referred to as a style of prayer and spirituality. Emphasizing the discernment of God in and through nature. The Irish have always have had a connection to nature. Celtic Christianity finds the beauty in Gods creation. The Irish are a very down to earth people, simple in their ways and it reflects in their beliefs.
I love the Irish people! And glad to have Irish roots!
Blessings,
Lady Di:angel:




Great info, Di.

Indeed, St. Patrick's "catholicism" wasn't exactly the Roman kind. His "prayer" is, indeed, a classic "down to earth" desire, eh?

[LADY DI]

:wave: Hi PatrickM,

Just thought I'd pass along the idea of looking up a comparison of Patricks Christianity and Augustines ( of Hippo) Christianity. Its very interesting to compare to two since they both lived at the same time. Talk about totally different religious thought!!:confused:

[PatrickM]

:wave: Hi PatrickM,

Just thought I'd pass along the idea of looking up a comparison of Patricks Christianity and Augustines ( of Hippo) Christianity. Its very interesting to compare to two since they both lived at the same time. Talk about totally different religious thought!!:confused:


Hey, that would be interesting. Indeed, although Patrick wasn't as a prolific writer as Augustine. I think he (Patrick) was more interested in doing than studying and writing about it.

[PatrickM]

By the by, happy b-day! How bizarre, as I'm chalking up another year on this spinning sphere as well!

[LADY DI]

:wave: How cool is that!! WE share the same birthday!!!

HAPPY BIRTHDAY TO YOU TOO!!:clap:

Theres a book that I have that compares Patrick and Augustine. I have it but its packed away ( just moved not to long ago). When I find it , Ill pass the info to you.
God Bless,
Di:angel:

[PatrickM]

:wave: How cool is that!! WE share the same birthday!!!

HAPPY BIRTHDAY TO YOU TOO!!:clap:
:D
Theres a book that I have that compares Patrick and Augustine. I have it but its packed away ( just moved not to long ago). When I find it , Ill pass the info to you.
God Bless,
Di:angel:
Awesome, please let me know. If you had to choose, which would be more to your liking, Patrick or Augustine? Just curious, but it seems you've had a bit of an education on things theological and all!

[PatrickM]

Uh, er, hehe, . . .

Do you know how one goes about changing one's age next to my, er, one's name?

Never know when one might need to do this :D

[PatrickM]

:doh:

Should try actually reading me own screen once in a while, eh?

[LADY DI]

:D

Awesome, please let me know. If you had to choose, which would be more to your liking, Patrick or Augustine? Just curious, but it seems you've had a bit of an education on things theological and all!
:wave: Hello again Patrick!!!

If I had to choose it would be Patrick.
Patrick lived an amazing life. He was raised in a Christian home, but in his early years, he began to question his faith. During this time Irish invaders kidnapped him ( he was living in a town on the coast of Britian) and then sold as a slave!
He was a shepherd left in the harsh elements to tend his masters sheep.
During this time he began to seek God. The times of loneliness only made his faith grow stronger. After many years, the Lord spoke to Patrick and told him to walk. Patrick did what God told him to do, and left his flock and began walking. He finally came to a town on the coast where there was a ship that was going to his home port, so he boarded and returned home.
His family was of course glad to have him returned. But he already knew upon returning home what God had intended for him to do. He informed his family that he was called to serve God. He began study in France and when he was ordained as a priest, he began to make his way back to Ireland. His heart was for the Irish people. They were very much still pagan. There were churches, but there were alot of souls to be saved.
Patrick had a uniqueness about him. And the people were drawn to him.
One thing Patrick did that didnt go over well with Rome was he ordained women as priest.
He saw women a equal partners in the work of God.( basically his interpetation of Galatians 3: 28 " there is neither Jew nor Greek, slave nor free, male nor female for you are all one in Christ Jesus".)
Unlike Augustine who saw women as sinful vessels used to lure men away from God.
Im not saying Patrick was right in ordaining women, but he didnt see them the way Augustus did.
In my own opinion, Patrick was a true christian. He had a heart for a people who initially took him away from his family and home. He originally went to Ireland as a slave, but returned to give these same people hope and salvation.
How hard to love someone who took you away from familar surroundings never knowing if youll ever return home, But he did!! I think thats why the Irish people love him so.

[Treasure the Questions]

Celtic Christianity is a growing movement in the British Isles, based on some of the principles of the early Christians in these islands who were Celts. Celt describes their ethnic origin, so although the Celts were originally all pagan many became Christian as the faith spread. There were a good number of Celtic missionaries, too, and they founded ancient monasteries and led many people to faith in Christ. The Celtic church existed before the Roman church became the dominant Christian force, and it took longer to eradicate in some places than others. I have also heard it said that some of what is unique to British Christianity was due to traces of Celtic Christianity remaining in the folk memories of the people.

Modern "Celtic Christianity" looks at their prayer forms and some other aspects of the ancient expression of the Christian faith and adapts it to suit a more modern outlook.

Am I allowed to give links to relevant sites? The Iona Community has books on Celtic Christianity including some that are historical and some which include modern "Celtic prayers". This community practices an inclusive approach to Christianity. A more evangelical group is the Northumbria Community. They have less literature available, but there site makes fairly interesting reading. Both are based on ancient Celtic Christian sites.

Hope that helps.

Karin

[PatrickM]

Celtic Christianity is a growing movement in the British Isles, based on some of the principles of the early Christians in these islands who were Celts. Celt describes their ethnic origin, so although the Celts were originally all pagan many became Christian as the faith spread. There were a good number of Celtic missionaries, too, and they founded ancient monasteries and led many people to faith in Christ. The Celtic church existed before the Roman church became the dominant Christian force, and it took longer to eradicate in some places than others. I have also heard it said that some of what is unique to British Christianity was due to traces of Celtic Christianity remaining in the folk memories of the people.

Modern "Celtic Christianity" looks at their prayer forms and some other aspects of the ancient expression of the Christian faith and adapts it to suit a more modern outlook.

Am I allowed to give links to relevant sites? The Iona Community has books on Celtic Christianity including some that are historical and some which include modern "Celtic prayers". This community practices an inclusive approach to Christianity. A more evangelical group is the Northumbria Community. They have less literature available, but there site makes fairly interesting reading. Both are based on ancient Celtic Christian sites.

Hope that helps.

Karin
Indeed it does! Thanks for the info. The two references are very informative: www.iona.org\uk and www.northumbriacommunity.org

[PatrickM]

Hello, and happy birthday, Di (hey, it kinda rhymes, in a prose sorta way) ;)

Ok, I said I thought you had a bit of an education in things, but . . . wow. Now, where did you get all this 'lernin'?
:wave: Hello again Patrick!!!

If I had to choose it would be Patrick.
I kinda figured that, if you read me previous posts ;)
Patrick lived an amazing life. He was raised in a Christian home, but in his early years, he began to question his faith. During this time Irish invaders kidnapped him ( he was living in a town on the coast of Britian) and then sold as a slave!
He was a shepherd left in the harsh elements to tend his masters sheep.
During this time he began to seek God. The times of loneliness only made his faith grow stronger. After many years, the Lord spoke to Patrick and told him to walk. Patrick did what God told him to do, and left his flock and began walking. He finally came to a town on the coast where there was a ship that was going to his home port, so he boarded and returned home.
His family was of course glad to have him returned. But he already knew upon returning home what God had intended for him to do. He informed his family that he was called to serve God. He began study in France and when he was ordained as a priest, he began to make his way back to Ireland. His heart was for the Irish people. They were very much still pagan. There were churches, but there were alot of souls to be saved.
Patrick had a uniqueness about him. And the people were drawn to him.
One thing Patrick did that didnt go over well with Rome was he ordained women as priest.
Twasn't the only thing that ruffled his beard, eh?
He saw women a equal partners in the work of God.( basically his interpetation of Galatians 3: 28 " there is neither Jew nor Greek, slave nor free, male nor female for you are all one in Christ Jesus".)
*gasp* ;)
Unlike Augustine who saw women as sinful vessels used to lure men away from God.
Im not saying Patrick was right in ordaining women, but he didnt see them the way Augustus did.
Perhaps this was a reactions to his (Augustine's) "youthful indiscretions"?
In my own opinion, Patrick was a true christian. He had a heart for a people who initially took him away from his family and home. He originally went to Ireland as a slave, but returned to give these same people hope and salvation.
No doubt about it. I love his "prayer", tho some doubt it's his (per Cahill). A few lines which are me favs are:

I arise today
Through God's strength to pilot me: God's might to uphold me, God's wisdome to guide me . . .

Christ to shield me today . . . Christ with me, Christ before me, Christ behind me, Christ in me, Christ beneath me, Christ above me . . .

Through a mighty strength, the invocation of the Trinity, through belief in the threeness, through the confession of the oneness, of the Creator of Creation.
How hard to love someone who took you away from familar surroundings never knowing if youll ever return home, But he did!! I think thats why the Irish people love him so.
That, and that he 'drove the snakes out' ;)

[Treasure the Questions]

Glad I could help, Patrick. I'm by no means an expert but I am interested in Celtic Christianity and have read a few things about it.

Last summer I read some novels by Stephen Lawhead from the Pendragon Cycle. The first one, "Taliesin" hopped about between Atlantis/Crete or somewhere like that and a strange Welsh boy who is training to be a druid. The story comes together much better in the next two books, "Merlin" and "Arthur" and basically weaves the author's ideas of how a Celtic druid might have become a Christian and how his beliefs as a druid could have influenced his Christian faith, into the Arthurian legend in a very plausible way. St David also pops in, although I think he lived after Arthur. There are some interesting insights into life in ancient Britain along with some flights of fancy. I don't know if you'd find that sort of book interesting.

[Suzannah]

E-texts you might find helpful/interesting...
:)

First, my favorite because he's family and his biography was also written by family:
The Life of St. Columba by Admonan (http://www.fordham.edu/halsall/basis/columba-e.html)

and
The Prayer "Rule" of St. Columba (http://www.fordham.edu/halsall/source/columba-rule.html)

St. Ita, Foster Mother of Ireland (http://www.irishcultureandcustoms.com/ASaints/Ita.html)

The Life of St. Declan of Ardmore (http://www.gutenberg.net/etext/823)

The Life of St. Mochuda of Lismore (http://www.gutenberg.net/etext/10937)


Enjoy! :)

[LADY DI]

Greetings:wave:

Thanks Suzannah for sharing that info, Ill have to check that out.

Treasure the Question those sound like interesting books. I like novels like that, it sounds like those would be a good read. Do you read other books like that as well? If so what are some of the others youve read?

Patrick it was late when I wrote.
Forgive me for writing Augustus, you know I meant Augustine:blush:

Now, where did you get all this lernin?

Just from reading!

I love Patricks prayer also.
So who would you choose Patrick or Augustine? I have a feeling I already know, though.

Looking forward to hearing from you
Di:angel:

[prodromos]

One thing Patrick did that didnt go over well with Rome was he ordained women as priest. He saw women a equal partners in the work of God.( basically his interpetation of Galatians 3: 28 " there is neither Jew nor Greek, slave nor free, male nor female for you are all one in Christ Jesus".)

Are you quite sure he ordained women to the priesthood or simply as deaconesses? Deaconesses were common in the early church and helped particularly in the baptism of women, but they were not priests by any stretch of the imagination, just as deacons are not today.

I believe the Oriental Orthodox still have a female deaconate.

John.

[Treasure the Questions]

Greetings:wave:

Treasure the Question those sound like interesting books. I like novels like that, it sounds like those would be a good read. Do you read other books like that as well? If so what are some of the others youve read?

Di:angel:
I don't read a lot of that sort of book, but I would certainly recommend those if the genre appeals to you, Di. :)

Karin

[LADY DI]

:wave: Hi Karin!!!

I have a book, havent read it yet called Glastonbury. It is written by a Christian author. But tells the story of Glastonbury from Joseph of Arimathea ( who built the first church there ) through some very interesting people, as well as Arthur. Its historical fiction but written by a christian so you dont have to worry about anything wierd.

Just thought Id pass that along.
Di:angel:

[Treasure the Questions]

Thanks, Lady Di.:) I don't tend to worry about non-Christian authors being "weird", although I can't say I was over keen on the Bernard Cornwell book about Arthur, which I read. I can stomach so much blood but this was too gory for my taste. It was interesting in parts, though. I'm embarking on The Brothers Karamazov at the moment, so it could be a while before I'm looking for anything else to read.;)

[LADY DI]

Are you quite sure he ordained women to the priesthood or simply as deaconesses? Deaconesses were common in the early church and helped particularly in the baptism of women, but they were not priests by any stretch of the imagination, just as deacons are not today.

I believe the Oriental Orthodox still have a female deaconate.

John.
:wave: Hi John,

Sorry to take so long to get back to you!!!
Ive have been going through some of my books to find where I read about Patrick ordaining women priest. I have many books most of them are packed away because I have no place to put them. Well anyway when I find the book Ill pass it along to you. I like to be able to "back up" what I say. I dont want to ever have someone say that Im making up stuff ( Im not implying that you are) . So forgive me in my long search!
God Bless
Di:angel:

[PatrickM]

Hi, Di (hehe)!

Patrick it was late when I wrote. Forgive me for writing Augustus, you know I meant Augustine :blush:
No worries! I hardly noticed. ;)
Just from reading! I love Patricks prayer also.
You must be a voracious reader!
So who would you choose Patrick or Augustine? I have a feeling I already know, though.
Looking forward to hearing from you.
Di :angel:
Sorry for the delay in writing, was up in Santa Maria for a few days, just got back.

Uh, indeed, the winner is Patrick. He was more a "James" kinda Christian, "just do it"! And imagine if today, we could have schools for learning which cost nothing (as he established throughout Eire), except working to provide for the community! And those absolutely breathtaking pages of artwork!

Augustine seems, at least according to Cahill (which I'm wondering if he is really Christian - have you read his book on Christianity? The title evades me at present), to have become a bit crodgedy in his old age. His opinions regarding relations between husbands and wives was a bit o'er the top.

Have you found the title to that book you referred to comparing the two?

[papercrane]

There are several good books available on the subject; one of the best ones I've read is Ian Bradley's Celtic Christianity : Making Myths and Chasing Dreams, which you can read online at netlibrary dot com. Pagan traditions and beliefs did influence Celtic Christianity, but there was a definite change in the belief system. Rather than abolish their traditions completely, they found ways to incorporate them into the worship of God.

[PatrickM]

There are several good books available on the subject; one of the best ones I've read is Ian Bradley's Celtic Christianity : Making Myths and Chasing Dreams,
Tanks for the reference!
which you can read online at netlibrary dot com.
Clever. I'm sure in no time, you'll be all grown up like rest o' us here.
Pagan traditions and beliefs did influence Celtic Christianity, but there was a definite change in the belief system. Rather than abolish their traditions completely, they found ways to incorporate them into the worship of God.
And by doing so, they alienated much fewer natives without compromising the faith, wouldn't you agree?

[Treasure the Questions]

Rather than abolish their traditions completely, they found ways to incorporate them into the worship of God.
I find it interesting that people can be most disapproving of this and yet they don't bat an eyelid at Augustine's ideas even though they were heavily influenced by his pagan Greek education.

I get the impression that the Celtic Christians were not uniform in their beliefs and they tolerated differences of opinion. Under the influence of Augustine's thinking the church in Rome demanded uniformity of thinking. It seems to me that the doctrine of hell was a very handy way to keep unruly peasants under control. I wonder how things would have developed if Celtic Christianity had been the dominant force, but perhaps by it's very nature that was impossible when faced with a power hungry Rome.

[papercrane]

Tanks for the reference!

Clever. I'm sure in no time, you'll be all grown up like rest o' us here.


What? It's a perfectly legitimate site.

[PatrickM]

What? It's a perfectly legitimate site.
Please, you misunderstood my improperly worded post!

I meant the "dot com" part, since you can't post links just yet! The link is a very informative site.

Peace?

[PatrickM]

Please, you misunderstood my improperly worded post!

I meant the "dot com" part, since you can't post links just yet! The link is a very informative site.

Peace?

Edit: albeit I'll have to go to the college library to read it! :wave:

[papercrane]

Absolutely. I also apologize; my post sounded much more defensive than I meant for it to sound. Thanks for the welcome!

And by doing so, they alienated much fewer natives without compromising the faith, wouldn't you agree?

I do; I think that this is the reason why Celtic Christianity has gained interest in recent years. It's an alternative image to the ones we're usually presented (e.g., the forceful conversion of the Native Americans and the eradication of cultures).