Openly Gay, Openly Christian: How the Bible Really Is Gay Friendly

[J.A.I]

http://www.amazon.com/exec/obidos/tg/detail/-/0943595789/ref=cm_custrec_gl_acc/104-8177987-8625551?v=glance&s=books

Was shopping on Amazon and found this... :(

[Marissa]

Unfortunately this is not a newly held view. It's been around for a few decades at least.

I have read every single argument against the interpretation that homosexuality is a sin. None have convinced me, and I wanted to be convinced. My sole purpose in reading them was to be convinced. The holy spirit wouldn't allow it and I praise the Lord for that. Accepting these teachings is dangerous. They cause some people to go on a path towards damnation. Our sexuality may not be a salvation issue, but hardening our hearts to the holy spirit most certainly is. That is what this teaching encourages in homosexual christians. It's incredibly sad. :(

[Neenie]

Unfortunately this is not a newly held view. It's been around for a few decades at least.

I have read every single argument against the interpretation that homosexuality is a sin. None have convinced me, and I wanted to be convinced. My sole purpose in reading them was to be convinced. The holy spirit wouldn't allow it and I praise the Lord for that. Accepting these teachings is dangerous. They cause some people to do on a path towards damnation. Our sexuality may not be a salvation issue, but hardening our hearts to the holy spirit most certainly is. That is what this teaching encourages in homosexual christians. It's incredibly sad. :(

I agree, there was a point where I wanted to be convinced as well. But the fact is that God never changes. I believe this is prophesy being fulfilled.

[Lynn73]

I'm not convinced, either, by all the arguments for biblical approval of homosexuality. It's just not there. Yet, the Scripture twisting, manipulating, over analyzing, and reinterpreting goes on and on today in order for people to continue doing what they want. AFAIC, there's no debate at all on the issue of homosexuality. God has made himself perfectly clear on the subject, yet people ignore Him and change Scripture to accomodate deviancy. Much of the church appears to be falling away from the truth of Scripture. :sigh:

[J.A.I]

I agree w/you ALL. I don't understand why people want to MAKE scripture fit them. I mean, I DO understand, but at the same time, if you love Jesus, you will keep His commandments, not CHANGE them...

This is so damaging to the church... when people use scripture to 'allow' their sins... premarital sex, homosexuality, and so on. Is it really so hard to do what God says ? I mean, living the saved life is difficult at times, yes... but we are given those rules to live by (so to speak) because God loves us. Like our parents, they give us rules b/c they want the best for us and don't want to see us hurt. God is the same. Why don't people see that ?

:(

[Knight]

I recommend a book called, "The Same Sex Controversy" by James White. It hits these Biblical issues head on.

[J.A.I]

*looking into that* Thanks, Knight :)

Found it on Amazon:
http://www.amazon.com/exec/obidos/tg/detail/-/0764225243/qid=1084463423/sr=8-1/ref=sr_8_xs_ap_i1_xgl14/104-8177987-8625551?v=glance&s=books&n=507846

What a LONG URL lol.

[Shane Roach]

It's comforting to have a place here where people are all of one mind on this issue. So often it seems that the very mention of this issue just provokes long winded, endless argument. It made me hold my breath to see this thread here in the fundie forum, but I am heartened not only that so many express concern about such teachings, but that contrary to what most people like to say about "fundamentalists", there is none of the hyperjudgemental or hateful about anything I have seen in these reactions.

I wonder why so few of those who want to say they are just trying to be loving don't see it as a hurtful thing to do to more or less encourage Christians towards sin. My experience with sin in my life is that it is by no means a comfortable or easy thing to deal with, even if part of it might be because some people told you some things that were false. Ultimately, the Holy Spirit is not going to let you off that easy no matter what. People need support to resist sin, not excuses to help promote it, I feel strongly. I only wish I had known more, strong Christians and had that influence when I was young to have helped me through some hard times and temptations. Even it it wasn't about being gay, all sexual sin has the potential to be SO devestating on so many levels.

[Kelly]

Eph 4:22-24
You were taught, with regard to your former way of life, to put off your old self, which is being corrupted by its deceitful desires; to be made new in the attitude of your minds; and to put on the new self, created to be like God in true righteousness and holiness.

Eph 5:3-11
But among you there must not be even a hint of sexual immorality, or of any kind of impurity, or of greed, because these are improper for God's holy people. Nor should there be obscenity, foolish talk or coarse joking, which are out of place, but rather thanksgiving. For of this you can be sure: No immoral, impure or greedy person--such a man is an idolater--has any inheritance in the kingdom of Christ and of God. Let no one deceive you with empty words, for because of such things God's wrath comes on those who are disobedient. Therefore do not be partners with them.
For you were once darkness, but now you are light in the Lord. Live as children of light (for the fruit of the light consists in all goodness, righteousness and truth) and find out what pleases the Lord. Have nothing to do with the fruitless deeds of darkness, but rather expose them.

[LuxPerpetua]

I wonder why so few of those who want to say they are just trying to be loving don't see it as a hurtful thing to do to more or less encourage Christians towards sin. People need support to resist sin, not excuses to help promote it, I feel strongly. I only wish I had known more, strong Christians and had that influence when I was young to have helped me through some hard times and temptations. Even it it wasn't about being gay, all sexual sin has the potential to be SO devestating on so many levels.


This is soooooo true! I completely agree!

I find it very interesting that the church for the past 1950 years has condemned homosexuality, and yet there has been so much "rethinking" of this moral issue in the last 50 years than ever before!

I have several friends who are gay, I love them and pray for them, but I will not ever agree that that lifestyle is okay with God anymore than I will agree that murder or lying is okay. I don't think that sin itself is any longer a salvation issue (Christ covered that ;) ) but I do think that unrepentant sin is a direct affront to God and may indeed result in a loss of eternal reward.

[Victorian Rose]

Wow! It is so nice to come into a thread with this topic and not find arguing and bashing! I agree with everything that has been said.

I wonder why so few of those who want to say they are just trying to be loving don't see it as a hurtful thing to do to more or less encourage Christians towards sin. My experience with sin in my life is that it is by no means a comfortable or easy thing to deal with, even if part of it might be because some people told you some things that were false. Ultimately, the Holy Spirit is not going to let you off that easy no matter what. People need support to resist sin, not excuses to help promote it, I feel strongly. I only wish I had known more, strong Christians and had that influence when I was young to have helped me through some hard times and temptations. Even it it wasn't about being gay, all sexual sin has the potential to be SO devestating on so many levels.
This is so true! Being an overcomer of sexual sin I would not want someone supporting me in staying in it. I needed support in overcoming it and stepping through to victory. I have learned to rely on God and the Holy Spirit for my support but, it sure is good to hear fundamental believers and be eddified and lifted up by them. Thank you to all my fellow fundys. Most times you don't even know if you have touch a person's life. I am here to say you have. You have touched mine.

[Lynn73]

Wow! It is so nice to come into a thread with this topic and not find arguing and bashing! I agree with everything that has been said.

Yes, isn't it. I usually feel frustrated and sorrowful talking with Christians who seem to have embraced a view that says Scripture supports this thing. I'm glad there are some of us who are in agreement with what the Bible says on the subject. I keep thinking of Isaiah 5:20.

[kdet]

I thank God that there were people in my life that would not accept, condone or support my sexual sins and because of them and because of the Holy Spirit convicting me daily, I now live a life of a Christian who strives to do God's will instead of my own. We don't help people when we tell them that their behavior is acceptable to God.
My pastor loves to say that instead of changing their lifestyle to fit the Bible, people try and change the Bible to fit their lifestyles.

[BarbB]

OK, this celibate hetero LOVES all you guys!

I had been watching a show called Starting Over about a house in Chicago where women come to be helped with issues in their lives. It began with real women, but it's gotten to be Jerry Springer instead. 2 of the current women are a 20+ who just had her illigitimate child and doesn't know who the father is, her boyfriend, a one night stand who happens to be black, or her ex-boyfriend. A new housemate joined today who is lesbian. Sorry, I won't be watching for the next month or so. What a shame to make these women think that what they do is OK. The only Christian woman left a few days ago (her goal was to get off welfare). :cry:

[Kelly]

I thank God that there were people in my life that would not accept, condone or support my sexual sins and because of them and because of the Holy Spirit convicting me daily, I now live a life of a Christian who strives to do God's will instead of my own. We don't help people when we tell them that their behavior is acceptable to God.
My pastor loves to say that instead of changing their lifestyle to fit the Bible, people try and change the Bible to fit their lifestyles.
:clap:

[LuxPerpetua]

Sexual sins seem to be very much endorsed in our society these days. I was watching the Biography channel of all things the other day and there was an advice segment about marital relationships that basically said if you don't want to have sex with your spouse just take a dirty magazine into the bathroom :sick:

As if divorce rates, depression rates, and adultery rates weren't high enough already! :sigh: It's so sad that society is feeding this message to people. :(

[Ceris]

Yeah! A thread where I don't have to exhaust myself aruging the same point over and over, that once you start to try and conform God's Word to the world, you have crossed a line that has no boundry beyond it. Thank you Jai for starting this thread.

[J.A.I]

Ceris - To God be the glory :)

But, yes, guys, it's awesome that we can discuss this and not have to worry about other things.. that we're all of like mind, and so on.

I am SO GLAD my friends pointed my sins out when I was messing up (and when I fall short, they still keep me in check). That is love right there. Love corrects because it wants the best for you. What love is NOT is when you see someone on a destructive path and you don't help them.

It's like that commercial.. I think it is an anti-drug commercial. It's the one where it shows the girl watching her friend drown. That's, in essence, what it is. If you condone your friends or ANYONE in a sinful lifestyle, you are watching them drown when you SHOULD be throwing in a life preserver (literally!)

[ChrisB]

It's like that commercial.. I think it is an anti-drug commercial. It's the one where it shows the girl watching her friend drown. That's, in essence, what it is. If you condone your friends or ANYONE in a sinful lifestyle, you are watching them drown when you SHOULD be throwing in a life preserver (literally!)

I agree wholeheartedly - Ezekiel 3:16-18 tells us we should do exactly that

Ezekiel 3

16 At the end of seven days the word of the LORD came to me: 17 "Son of man, I have made you a watchman for the house of Israel; so hear the word I speak and give them warning from me. 18 When I say to a wicked man, 'You will surely die,' and you do not warn him or speak out to dissuade him from his evil ways in order to save his life, that wicked man will die for his sin, and I will hold you accountable for his blood.

[Neenie]

I thank God that there were people in my life that would not accept, condone or support my sexual sins and because of them and because of the Holy Spirit convicting me daily, I now live a life of a Christian who strives to do God's will instead of my own. We don't help people when we tell them that their behavior is acceptable to God.
My pastor loves to say that instead of changing their lifestyle to fit the Bible, people try and change the Bible to fit their lifestyles.

I agree with you,

There was a time when I used the Bible to justify my sexual sin. It started off with me knowing it Is a sin, but the more I tried to justify It, the more I believed It wasn't. It is a very easy trap to fall into. Once you accept something as not a sin, you will easily accept other sins as well. Satan loves to play on peoples "emotions", to make us self-centric. I got easily offended when people called pre-marital sex a sin, I would jump up and down saying It's ok in a loving relationship, because God is love. It wasn't until a couple of months ago, I had some trouble in my life, I was In such a depressed and desperate state. I was crying out to God begging for him to help me, I then instantly felt the holy spirit flow over me, It was such a humbling experience, one I will never forget! While I was repenting and crying, God later placed on my heart that pre-marital sex Is a sin, same as Homosexuality Is a sin, whether It's in a loving relationship or not! Satan's main aim Is to get us to live by our emotions rather than the word of God, and It's happening more and more In this day and age.

Ok I'm sorry to ramble on a bit, I just wanted to give my testimony. And how with God all things are possible :clap:

[J.A.I]

Praise God for your testimony, Neenie!!!!! :) :hug:!

[Neenie]

Amen J.A.I! I thank God so much! :hug:

[ChiRho]

This is soooooo true! I completely agree!

I find it very interesting that the church for the past 1950 years has condemned homosexuality, and yet there has been so much "rethinking" of this moral issue in the last 50 years than ever before!

I have several friends who are gay, I love them and pray for them, but I will not ever agree that that lifestyle is okay with God anymore than I will agree that murder or lying is okay. I don't think that sin itself is any longer a salvation issue (Christ covered that ;) ) but I do think that unrepentant sin is a direct affront to God and may indeed result in a loss of eternal reward.

Lux, with a response like that, I am left with only one conclusion....you must be a Lutheran! :hug:

Pax Christi,

ChiRho

[UberLutheran]

the Exclusive Country Club of the Sanctified Elect.

Only "True Christians" need apply for membership.

It DOES makes me wonder if Jesus would have been good enough for membership in our Exclusive Country Club of the Sanctified Elect. You know: seeing as how He worked and healed on the Sabbath, didn't obey established religious leaders and rules of His time, He hung out with tax collectors, prostitutes, and others deemed "unworthy" to worship with the Truly Righteous of His period, was perpetually poor (and preferred it that way - and encouraged others to be that way, too!), and ended up being executed on a cross (the most shameful form of capital punishment known at that time).

:prayer: Thank you, Lord, that WE'RE not like those AWFUL homosexuals...

Therefore you are without excuse, man, whoever you are who judge. For in that which you judge another, you condemn yourself. For you who judge practice the same things.
2 We know that the judgment of God is according to truth against those who practice such things.
3 Do you know this, O man who judges those who practice such things, and do the same, that you will escape the judgment of God?
4 Or do you despise the riches of his goodness, forbearance, and patience, not knowing that the goodness of God leads you to repentance?

[Kelly]

We are not saying we are any better than homosexuals, uber, or that they should be excluded from Jesus. I have my sin that I struggle with. We are just saying that it is sin and it should be something that a homosexual Christian wants to purge from their life, not celebrate.

[Kelly]

As long we are quoting Paul....

1 Timothy 1:8-11 (NLT) We know these laws are good when they are used as God intended. But they were not made for people who do what is right. They are for people who are disobedient and rebellious, who are ungodly and sinful, who consider nothing sacred and defile what is holy, who murder their father or mother or other people. These laws are for people who are sexually immoral, for homosexuals and slave traders, for liars and oath breakers, and for those who do anything else that contradicts the right teaching that comes from the glorious Good News entrusted to me by our blessed God.

[BarbB]

Uber - are you a fundie? Hmmm, I hadn't realized that! :D

[ChrisB]

Uber - are you a fundie? Hmmm, I hadn't realized that! :D

The Lutherans agitate for their own forum then still want to debate in everyone else's......................

[BarbB]

The Lutherans agitate for their own forum then still want to debate in everyone else's......................

Those old Lutheran busybodies! :D

[LuxPerpetua]

The Lutheran Church Missouri Synod is very much fundamentalist. ;) Thanks, ChiRho, for the stamp of approval *Lux wipes sweat from forehead* :P

I agree with Kelly above: It's not that homosexuality is a "worse" sin than any other sin, but rather that when we the church of believers, as the Body of Christ, begin to accept relativist and secular ethics we start overlooking our own sin--the very sin that Christ died for on the cross. We are called to repentance for our own sins and we are called to help others recognize the sin in their own lives. We are always to correct out of love, not hate. Unfortunately, many Christians have not acted out of compassion but rather coercion and malice. This is never okay. We all stand convicted before God--not one of us is righteous!--but through Christ we have been forgiven. When we start overlooking sin we are very much on the pathway of forgetting about God (who needs God's grace if you can get to heaven on your own?) and what Christ has done for us.

[J.A.I]

Uber - You're a liberal *looking at his signature*
Another God-loving liberal for Christ!

The Lutherans agitate for their own forum then still want to debate in everyone else's......................
LOL

We are not saying we are any better than homosexuals, uber, or that they should be excluded from Jesus. I have my sin that I struggle with. We are just saying that it is sin and it should be something that a homosexual Christian wants to purge from their life, not celebrate.
Kelly sometimes I think I'm a younger version of you, lol. :hug:

[Lynn73]

Yeah! A thread where I don't have to exhaust myself aruging the same point over and over, that once you start to try and conform God's Word to the world, you have crossed a line that has no boundry beyond it. Thank you Jai for starting this thread.
Don't go to the liberal forum! ^_^ You'll definitely get exhausted there I think.

[BarbB]

Good points, Lux, and I wouldn't think of asking you to leave this congregation! No sweat! :D

[ufonium2]

I agree with Kelly above: It's not that homosexuality is a "worse" sin than any other sin, but rather that when we the church of believers, as the Body of Christ, begin to accept relativist and secular ethics we start overlooking our own sin--the very sin that Christ died for on the cross.
Great point Lux!

There are a lot of people out there who say "Why are you so hung up on homosexuality? All sin is bad, why aren't you upset about adultery, theft, etc?"

When talking about an issue, say the Gene Robinson case, I always point out that I would be screaming just as loud about other sins, like if he were shacked up with a woman or if he were openly and unrepentantly stealing. The point is not that he's a sinner, since we all are, but that he refuses to acknowledge that he's a sinner, he won't repent, and he has no intention of stopping the sinful activity. That's the problem with homosexuality.

[Wilfred of Ivanhoe]

Don't go to the liberal forum! ^_^ You'll definitely get exhausted there I think.

amen!

[UberLutheran]

Those old Lutheran busybodies! :D


...that NONE of us are righteous because of anything we say, think or do, before God -- and that the more righteous people think they are, and the more that people are finally getting their spiritual act together -- the more damning their sins become, because pride has entered the picture (and a proud heart is the ONE place that God cannot enter).

And Lutherans believe that "none is righteous -- NO, NOT ONE" -- and that means fundamentalists, Baptists, Methodists, Presbyterians, Amish, Mennonites, Quakers, Episcopalians, Catholics, Coptics -- and Lutherans.

Luthrans also believe that it is ONLY through the death and resurrection of Christ that we can attain righteousness -- again, not because of anything WE do, but because of what CHRIST did; and thus we attain righteousness before God by grace, through faith; and it is because of this unmerited grace, through faith that ALL Christians become equal before Christ -- fundamentalists, non-fundamentalists, Pentecostals, Catholics, blacks, whites, straights, gays, the rich, the poor, Republicans, Democrats, conservatives and liberals alike.

I can match Scripture for Scripture -- but my bottom line is that we stand in the grace and love of Jesus Christ which passes all understanding and is given freely to ALL who believe in Him and accept Him as Lord and Savior.

[UberLutheran]

As long we are quoting Paul....


Romans 14:1-14
But receive him who is weak in faith, not for judging thoughts.
2 One man has faith to eat all things, but he who is weak eats herbs.
3 Don't let him who eats despise him who doesn't eat. Don't let him who doesn't eat judge him who eats, for God has received him.
4 Who are you who judge the servant of another? To his own lord he stands or falls. Yes, he will be made to stand, for God has power to make him stand.
5 One man esteems one day above another. Another esteems every day alike. Let each man be fully assured in his own mind.
6 He who observes the day, observes it to the Lord; and he who does not observe the day, to the Lord he does not observe it. He who eats, eats to the Lord, for he gives God thanks. He who doesn't eat, to the Lord he doesn't eat, and gives God thanks.
7 For none of us lives to himself, and none dies to himself.
8 For if we live, we live to the Lord. Or if we die, we die to the Lord. If therefore we live or die, we are the Lord's.
9 For to this end Christ died, rose, and lived again, that he might be Lord of both the dead and the living.
10 But you, why do you judge your brother? Or you again, why do you despise your brother? For we will all stand before the judgment seat of Christ.
11 For it is written, "'As I live,' says the Lord, 'to me every knee will bow. Every tongue will confess to God.'"
12 So then each one of us will give account of himself to God.
13 Therefore Let's not judge one another any more, but judge this rather, that no man put a stumbling block in his brother's way, or an occasion of falling.
14 I know, and am persuaded in the Lord Jesus, that nothing is unclean of itself; except that to him who considers anything to be unclean, to him it is unclean.

[Blade]

the Exclusive Country Club of the Sanctified Elect.

Only "True Christians" need apply for membership.

It DOES makes me wonder if Jesus would have been good enough for membership in our Exclusive Country Club of the Sanctified Elect. You know: seeing as how He worked and healed on the Sabbath, didn't obey established religious leaders and rules of His time, He hung out with tax collectors, prostitutes, and others deemed "unworthy" to worship with the Truly Righteous of His period, was perpetually poor (and preferred it that way - and encouraged others to be that way, too!), and ended up being executed on a cross (the most shameful form of capital punishment known at that time).

:prayer: Thank you, Lord, that WE'RE not like those AWFUL homosexuals...Please don't turn this in to something it's not. 1st yes Jesus "hung" out with the bad but did you know he said? You for some unknow reason let it out "go and SIN NO MORE" .John 8:11 She said, No man, Lord. And Jesus said unto her, Neither do I condemn thee: go, and sin no more. let's keep going John 5:14 4 Afterward Jesus findeth him in the temple, and said unto him, Behold, thou art made whole: sin no more, lest a worse thing come unto thee. And this is alot of US John 9:41 - 10:1 Jesus said unto them, If ye were blind, ye should have no sin: but now ye say, We see; therefore your sin remaineth.

So we see that Jesus did what? Go ahead and keep sinning? No he did not even condemn them he said SIN NO MORE. Let's make it simple. If we love him we WILL keep his comandments. We can not serve two masters. Some think that they can have some sin in there life and still have no problem getting to heaven. Do you know what sin does to a life? It keeps us from getting so close to the loving Father and opens the door to worse things. So my BROTHER please forgive us if we only want to help.



Lord, please deliver me from your followers=Matthew 18:21-22 Then came Peter to him, and said, Lord, how oft shall my brother sin against me, and I forgive him? till seven times? 22 Jesus saith unto him, I say not unto thee, Until seven times: but, Until seventy times seven.

[Blade]

Romans 14:1-14
10 But you, why do you judge your brother? Or you again, why do you despise your brother? For we will all stand before the judgment seat of Christ.
11 For it is written, "'As I live,' says the Lord, 'to me every knee will bow. Every tongue will confess to God.'"
12 So then each one of us will give account of himself to God.
13 Therefore Let's not judge one another any more, but judge this rather, that no man put a stumbling block in his brother's way, or an occasion of falling.
14 I know, and am persuaded in the Lord Jesus, that nothing is unclean of itself; except that to him who considers anything to be unclean, to him it is unclean.
My brother, same family YES. No one is talking Judge. If you read the whole thing you see what he was talking about meat and such. But I know how you want to mean it. Romans 6:6 6 Knowing this, that our old man is crucified with him, that the body of sin might be destroyed, that henceforth we should not serve sin. So you would say that Paul can tell us not to sin yet if we see a brother in sin and say it's wrong then were Judging? LOL you know that's not true. The ONLY person here to say anything negative about homosexuals, (joke?) was you Thank you, Lord, that WE'RE not like those AWFUL homosexuals... It would seem you would like to start something brother I love you in Christ but I and others will not play.

[RyanLJohnson1]

1st Corinthians 6:9-11 (NIV)

"Do you not know that the wicked will not inherit the kingdom of God? Do not be deceived: Neither the sexually immoral nor idolaters nor adulterers nor male prostitutes nor homosexual offenderrs nor thieves nor the greedy nor drunkards nor slanderers nor swindlers will inherit the kingdom of God. And that is what some of you were. But you were washed, you were sanctified, you were justified in the name of the Lord Jesus Christ and by the Spirit of our God."

I think that it is up to us as Christians to spread the word to homosexuals that homosexuality is indeed wrong. We should not condemn them, but should love them and set them on the right path. Only God can judge, and we were no different than them before we were saved. And, in today's society, some that are saved are still no different than them :/ We have to get the message out. It is stated clearly in 1st Corinthians 6:9-11 that homosexuality is immoral.

Take a look at Corinthians 7:2 (NIV)

"But since there is much immorality, each man should have his own wife, and each woman her own husband."

It doesn't get any more clear than that. Pray for all those who are not yet on the right path. Help out your fellow brother, and love them. Do not judge, or condemn, but help them out. Give them a helping hand, and pray to God that his Word gets through to them.

[Lynn73]

Romans 14:1-14
But receive him who is weak in faith, not for judging thoughts.
2 One man has faith to eat all things, but he who is weak eats herbs.
3 Don't let him who eats despise him who doesn't eat. Don't let him who doesn't eat judge him who eats, for God has received him.
4 Who are you who judge the servant of another? To his own lord he stands or falls. Yes, he will be made to stand, for God has power to make him stand.
5 One man esteems one day above another. Another esteems every day alike. Let each man be fully assured in his own mind.
6 He who observes the day, observes it to the Lord; and he who does not observe the day, to the Lord he does not observe it. He who eats, eats to the Lord, for he gives God thanks. He who doesn't eat, to the Lord he doesn't eat, and gives God thanks.
7 For none of us lives to himself, and none dies to himself.
8 For if we live, we live to the Lord. Or if we die, we die to the Lord. If therefore we live or die, we are the Lord's.
9 For to this end Christ died, rose, and lived again, that he might be Lord of both the dead and the living.
10 But you, why do you judge your brother? Or you again, why do you despise your brother? For we will all stand before the judgment seat of Christ.
11 For it is written, "'As I live,' says the Lord, 'to me every knee will bow. Every tongue will confess to God.'"
12 So then each one of us will give account of himself to God.
13 Therefore Let's not judge one another any more, but judge this rather, that no man put a stumbling block in his brother's way, or an occasion of falling.
14 I know, and am persuaded in the Lord Jesus, that nothing is unclean of itself; except that to him who considers anything to be unclean, to him it is unclean.
It's amazing how people take Scriptures out of context to try and prove that something is okay and we're not supposed to say anything about it. Here's another Scripture:

2 Timothy 3:16-17
All scripture is given by inspiration of God, and is profitable for doctrince, for reproof, for correction, for instruction in righteousness: that the man of God may be perfect, throughly furnished unto all good works.

Please don't try to tell us we can't repeat what God says about something and God has definitely said something about homosexuality. As Blade said about the verses posted by UberLutheran, they're about meat and dring and observing of holy days and such. It has nothing to do with saying we're not supposed to say anything about sin or that the church isn't supposed to deal with sinful, moral issues. And there's a big difference between judging a person personally and in making a judgment on behavior. The latter we're allowed to do. Sin is sin and that includes homosexuality. The church has to deal with it and stand on what God's word says. Either that or ignore what it says and do their own thing like we see many churches doing today.

[Gunny]

http://www.watchman.org/reltop/changgod.htm

http://www.lifemin.com/studies/The_word.htm

http://www.crosswalk.com/news/1246154.html

http://www.bible-truth.org/msg5.html

[ChiRho]

...that NONE of us are righteous because of anything we say, think or do, before God -- and that the more righteous people think they are, and the more that people are finally getting their spiritual act together -- the more damning their sins become, because pride has entered the picture (and a proud heart is the ONE place that God cannot enter).

And Lutherans believe that "none is righteous -- NO, NOT ONE" -- and that means fundamentalists, Baptists, Methodists, Presbyterians, Amish, Mennonites, Quakers, Episcopalians, Catholics, Coptics -- and Lutherans.

Luthrans also believe that it is ONLY through the death and resurrection of Christ that we can attain righteousness -- again, not because of anything WE do, but because of what CHRIST did; and thus we attain righteousness before God by grace, through faith; and it is because of this unmerited grace, through faith that ALL Christians become equal before Christ -- fundamentalists, non-fundamentalists, Pentecostals, Catholics, blacks, whites, straights, gays, the rich, the poor, Republicans, Democrats, conservatives and liberals alike.

I can match Scripture for Scripture -- but my bottom line is that we stand in the grace and love of Jesus Christ which passes all understanding and is given freely to ALL who believe in Him and accept Him as Lord and Savior.

While even the sin of unrepentance is forgivable by grace through faith according to Christ, a situation is hard to imagine where faith exist but repentance doesnt. As we should always remember the greatest attribute of God is mercy, (and we should always err to the side of grace!) to advocate homosexuality is not only unwise, but unScriptural, and the work of Satan. When one cheapens the Law, one perverts the truth of the Gospel. We cannot encourage, the practice of weakening, the reality of the horrible misery, despairing hopelessness, and eternal death that is found in the Law. This is nothing short of a futile attempt at Pietism. Our carnal selves want to make the Law seemingly easier to "attain." Justification, or Righteousness, is not "attainable" by man, but is the Achievement of Christ that is imputed to the undeserving sinner.

Certainly, all are completely sinful and lost, outside of Christ. There is none who seek God, but it is He that rescues and saves us, poor, sinful beings. An homosexual is no more sinful than any other. All are in desperate need for a Savior. But to advocate unrepentance for any sin, to anyone, is encouraging the practice of inward (self) justification. Our confidence shifts from Christ to ourselves, and faith erodes to nothing. So while it is true that unrepentance does not damn one to hell, unrepentance quickly smothers faith and leads to unbelief. Unbelief does indeed, admit one,passage to the fiery pit of eternal death.

When we encounter those in need of the Law, we must ALWAYS follow with the proclamation of the forgiveness of Christ that is found in the Gospel.

Sometimes Law, Always Gospel!!

Pax Christi,

ChiRho

[J.A.I]

While even the sin of unrepentance is forgivable by grace through faith according to Christ, a situation is hard to imagine where faith exist but repentance doesnt. As we should always remember the greatest attribute of God is mercy, (and we should always err to the side of grace!) to advocate homosexuality is not only unwise, but unScriptural, and the work of Satan. When one cheapens the Law, one perverts the truth of the Gospel. We cannot encourage, the practice of weakening, the reality of the horrible misery, despairing hopelessness, and eternal death that is found in the Law. This is nothing short of an futile attempt at Peitism. Our carnal selves want to make the Law seemingly easier to "attain." Justification, or Righteousness, is not "attainable" by man, but is the Achievement of Christ that is imputed to the undeserving sinner.

Certainly, all are completely sinful and lost, outside of Christ. There is none who seek God, but it is He that rescues and saves us, poor, sinful beings. An homosexual is no more sinful than any other. All are in desperate need for a Savior. But to advocate unrepentance for any sin, to anyone, is encouraging the practice of inward (self) justification. Our confidence shifts from Christ to ourselves, and faith erodes to nothing. So while it is true that unrepentance does not damn one to hell, unrepentance quickly smothers faith and leads to unbelief. Unbelief does indeed, admit one,passage to the fiery pit of eternal death.

When we encounter those in need of the Law, we must ALWAYS follow with the proclamation of the forgiveness of Christ that is found in the Gospel.

Sometimes Law, Always Gospel!!

Pax Christi,

ChiRho

:amen:

I don't even have anything to say. You said it all!

[J.A.I]

Just something to add to the conversation:

http://www.christianforums.com/t674556&page=1

[Plan 9]

Even after reading such a relaxed thread on this subject, I can't help but wonder what it would be like to be a fundamentalist and gay, knowing that the vast majority of my brothers and sisters could repent of their sexual sins, still with the hope that they would marry someday, while I knew that my repentance assured that I never would.
I also think that I wouldn't tell anyone, but would struggle with it alone because of the fear that every friendly gesture I made to members of my own sex might be misinterpreted as backsliding on my part.
Please don't assume that this is a debate post; it isn't. These are just my thoughts on what a lonely life it must be. They must feel like pariahs at times, and in some churches.

[J.A.I]

Not trying to debate or anything AT ALL.. but I don't think there could be a such thing as a gay fundamentalist.

I have discovered that fundamentalists tend to be of like mind. Liberals are as well. Liberals have decreed homosexuality to be okay and fundies deem it a sin.

[EdmundBlackadderTheThird]

Liberal and Fundies are not opposites, Liberal is a political postion and Fundy is a Biblical position. Fundies tend to be conservative but it is not always the case.

[Neenie]

Nevermind :)

[EdmundBlackadderTheThird]

Actually there isn't a direct opposite, if there was one it might be Gnostic or some such. There are lots of churches who take slightly different approach, but I don't think you would find an exact opposite in the pale of orthodoxy.

[Plan 9]

Of course there are gay and bisexual fundamentalists; I've met a number of them. Why wouldn't there be? They're Christians who embrace the fundamentals of the faith, just as do heterosexual Christians.

[J.A.I]

I thought liberals and fundamentalists were both 2 types of Christians ?? I'm confused now :|

[Neenie]

Actually there isn't a direct opposite, if there was one it might be Gnostic or some such. There are lots of churches who take slightly different approach, but I don't think you would find an exact opposite in the pale of orthodoxy.

Yeah... I guess It is different Biblically, as It is the truth. I'll have to study the word liberal....

[TheThirdLink]

Yeah! A thread where I don't have to exhaust myself aruging the same point over and over, that once you start to try and conform God's Word to the world, you have crossed a line that has no boundry beyond it. Thank you Jai for starting this thread.
Hello, brother Ceris! Long time no talk! :) :wave: ^_^ :hug:

I agree too!

Let me do a quick reading of the rest of this thread and I'll come back to where it currently is at. :D

[Plan 9]

My dictionary, The Webster's New World College Dictionary, which I highly recommend, lists ten meanings for the term "liberal", plus the original meaning, now pretty much confined to the expession "liberal arts": those arts [studies] once befitting a free person, as opposed to a servant or slave.

[Mimi]

Matthew - Chapter 7

1Judge not, that ye be not judged. 2 (http://www.blueletterbible.org/cgi-bin/popup.pl?book=Mat&chapter=7&verse=2&version=kjv)For with what judgment ye judge, ye shall be judged: and with what measure ye mete, it shall be measured to you again. 3 (http://www.blueletterbible.org/cgi-bin/popup.pl?book=Mat&chapter=7&verse=3&version=kjv)And why beholdest thou the mote that is in thy brother's eye, but considerest not the beam that is in thine own eye? 4 (http://www.blueletterbible.org/cgi-bin/popup.pl?book=Mat&chapter=7&verse=4&version=kjv)Or how wilt thou say to thy brother, Let me pull out the mote out of thine eye; and, behold, a beam [is] in thine own eye?


So, why judge homosexuals? Do you judge people and stone them because they work on a sabbath? Do you judge people and stone them because they wear two farbrics in their clothes? Do you judge a raped woman, who has not screamed for help and stone her? Do you judge and kill someone for the difference in skin color, creed, culture and so on? Aren't we evolved beyond those thoughts?

lotta love & sunshine,
Mimi

[EdmundBlackadderTheThird]

1. We are not evolved at all. We are created.
2. We are supposed to bring sin into the light. I will be glad to be measured by the same standard which is what that verse says in context. People take it out of context all the time to mean do not judge anyone and that is not what it says at all.
3. Homosexuality is a sin, it is said to be such in the Old and New Testakments. No-one here is saying that homsexuals shouldn't be in church, of course they should. They should also repent of their sin and follow God' word.
4. If you aren't a fundamentalist you cannot debate here.

[Mimi]

4. If you aren't a fundamentalist you cannot debate here.

OOPS.........Sorry:blush:

[J.A.I]

Mimi - Actually it isn't considered judging. It's calling sin as it is - sin. It is speaking the truth in love. It isn't judging. No one said anyone was better than anyone. If we did, we'd be judging THEN. But all we are doing is calling sin out like it needs to be. By being quiet when we know something is a sin, we do an injustice to the body of Christ and we sin as well.

I quoted Ezekiel in another thread and I will do so here as well.
Ezekiel 3:17-21 LITV
17 Son of man, I have made you a watchman for the house of Israel. And hear the Word of My mouth, and warn them from Me.
18 In My saying to the wicked, Dying you shall die; and you do not warn him, and you do not speak to warn the wicked from his wicked way, to save his life, he, the wicked, shall die in his iniquity. But I will require his blood at your hand.
19 And you, because you have warned the wicked, and he does not turn from his wickedness or from his way, he, the wicked, shall die in his iniquity. But you have delivered your soul.
20 And when the righteous turns from his righteousness and does injustice, and I lay a stumbling-block before him, he shall die. Since you have not warned him, he shall die in his sin, and his righteousness which he has done shall not be remembered. But I will require his blood at your hand.
21 But you, because you warned him, the righteous, so that the righteous should not sin, and he does not sin, living he shall live because he is warned. And you have delivered your soul.


1 Corinthians 5:11-13 LITV
11 But now I wrote to you not to associate intimately; if anyone is called a brother and is either a fornicator, or a covetous one, or an idolater, or a reviler, or a drunkard, or a plunderer, with such a one not to eat.
12 For what is it to me also to judge the ones outside? Do you not judge those inside?
13 But God will judge the ones outside. "And you shall put out from yourselves the evil one."

[Mimi]

But then, no-one is free of sin. And the bible says that a man who sleeps with a man like a woman must be put to dead.......That is judging, you call someone a sinner, because of who he or she is. They can't change who they are. Some try, but isnt that the worst sin....denying and lying to yourself?

Lotta love & sunshine,
Mimi

[J.A.I]

We're all sinners. The difference between homosexuality is that they don't even acknowledge it as sin, therefore seeking no repentance. It isn't judging. It's speaking the truth. Homosexuality is a sin. It is not of God. That is Biblical - OT and NT.

You can always change who you are. I've said this many times. Me for an example.. alcoholic, a weedhead, tripped on acid, stripper for 4 yrs, promiscuous, self mutilator, cursed like a sailor, involved in occult, had lesbian thoughts (never acted on them, but even when I was in my sin, I knew it was wrong), briefly involved in islam, disrespected and fought w/my parents..... That used to be who I was, but by the grace of an Almighty God, I no longer am ANY of those things and NEVER will be again. So, saying you cannot change who you are is a copout and it is not true. Jesus liberated me from all of that. I wanted to be free, and He freed me, thank God. If you yield your heart unto Him, He will set you free.

And there's nothing that says denying yourself is a sin. Rather the opposite:

Matthew 16:24-25 LITV
24 Then Jesus said to His disciples, If anyone desires to come after Me, let him deny himself, and let him bear his cross, and let him follow Me.
25 For whoever may desire to save his life will lose it. But whoever may lose his life for My sake will find it.

[Mimi]

We're all sinners. The difference between homosexuality is that they don't even acknowledge it as sin, therefore seeking no repentance. It isn't judging. It's speaking the truth. Homosexuality is a sin. It is not of God. That is Biblical - OT and NT.

You can always change who you are. I've said this many times. Me for an example.. alcoholic, a weedhead, tripped on acid, stripper for 4 yrs, promiscuous, self mutilator, cursed like a sailor, involved in occult, had lesbian thoughts (never acted on them, but even when I was in my sin, I knew it was wrong), briefly involved in islam, disrespected and fought w/my parents..... That used to be who I was, but by the grace of an Almighty God, I no longer am ANY of those things and NEVER will be again. So, saying you cannot change who you are is a copout and it is not true. Jesus liberated me from all of that. I wanted to be free, and He freed me, thank God. If you yield your heart unto Him, He will set you free.

And there's nothing that says denying yourself is a sin. Rather the opposite:

Matthew 16:24-25 LITV
24 Then Jesus said to His disciples, If anyone desires to come after Me, let him deny himself, and let him bear his cross, and let him follow Me.
25 For whoever may desire to save his life will lose it. But whoever may lose his life for My sake will find it.
These things you did, doesn't make you a worse human being. But it is not how you were born, created. You choose them somehow. Like I did......promiscues, alcoholic, weedhead and so on. I haven't stripped, but I cursed like a sailor as well........I do understand you. But being bisexual is just who I am.........simple. I haven't choosen it, it is part of me like my heart and kidneys. I do not act upon it. I am monogamous married to a man, but that doesn't mean I don't have thoughts and fantasies about women.I just am the way God "made" me. That is not sin........

Praying for you sweetie. You had a tough life, I admire your strength and honesty. :clap:

Lotta love & sunshine,
Mimi

[Wilfred of Ivanhoe]

These things you did, doesn't make you a worse human being. But it is not how you were born, created. You choose them somehow. Like I did......promiscues, alcoholic, weedhead and so on. I haven't stripped, but I cursed like a sailor as well........I do understand you. But being bisexual is just who I am.........simple. I haven't choosen it, it is part of me like my heart and kidneys. I do not act upon it. I am monogamous married to a man, but that doesn't mean I don't have thoughts and fantasies about women.I just am the way God "made" me. That is not sin........

Praying for you sweetie. You had a tough life, I admire your strength and honesty. :clap:

Lotta love & sunshine,
Mimi

But Mimi,

You still deny that those thoughts are a sin.

Matthew 5:27 Ye have heard that it was said by them of old time, Thou shalt not commit adultery:

28 But I say unto you, That whosoever looketh on a woman to lust after her hath committed adultery with her already in his heart.

When my heart is wicked and I look upon a woman who is not my wife, I am committing adultery; just as you are when you have desires for another who is not your spouse.

Those who have been given a saving faith in Christ are a new creation, the old man is destroyed. God sets us free from our bondage of sin. Through Christ, we become weak but he gives us stregnth to overcome our fleshly desires. We are all fallen creatures and born with a sin nature. I would not say that God made me to lust after women and to be puffed up in pride and love leisure and laziness over hard work. I would rather say this is a manifestation of my sin nature. Put your faith in Jesus and he will clense you of all unrighteousness. It is not enough to repent once. Our life is a life of constant repentance of our wickedness. Only when we reach the gates of Heaven will our fleshly desires be once and for all eradicated.

Grace and Peace.

[Mimi]

But Mimi,

You still deny that those thoughts are a sin.

Matthew 5:27 Ye have heard that it was said by them of old time, Thou shalt not commit adultery:

28 But I say unto you, That whosoever looketh on a woman to lust after her hath committed adultery with her already in his heart.

When my heart is wicked and I look upon a woman who is not my wife, I am committing adultery; just as you are when you have desires for another who is not your spouse.

Those who have been given a saving faith in Christ are a new creation, the old man is destroyed. God sets us free from our bondage of sin. Through Christ, we become weak but he gives us stregnth to overcome our fleshly desires. We are all fallen creatures and born with a sin nature. I would not say that God made me to lust after women and to be puffed up in pride and love leisure and laziness over hard work. I would rather say this is a manifestation of my sin nature. Put your faith in Jesus and he will clense you of all unrighteousness. It is not enough to repent once. Our life is a life of constant repentance of our wickedness. Only when we reach the gates of Heaven will our fleshly desires be once and for all eradicated.

Grace and Peace.
Even if hubs knows and doesn't blame me for my fantasies? I do not lie about it, I am not ashamed about it and I harm nobody this way. And even if I didn't fantasize and dream about it...is that also a sin? I would not be able to change or stop my dreams....

Lotta love & sunshine,
Mimi

[kdet]

It comes down to what God thinks, not our husbands or family or our friends or even ourselves, but God is the ultimate judge of our thoughts and actions.

[Shane Roach]

They can't change who they are. Some try, but isn't that the worst sin....denying and lying to yourself?

Lotta love & sunshine,
Mimi
This thing about it being something intrinsic isn't even true to begin with, unless you believe no one really controls any actions or feelings.

Feelings change by changing attitudes. That's all it takes. Some attitudes are more ingrained than others. The other confusion I think a lot of people have is they confuse temptation with "orientation". A rather surprisingly large percentage of all men admit to having had homo erotic thoughts, or even brief experiences. Likewise, I would bet most homosexuals have heterosexual experience as well. The question is what you do with those thoughts and feelings. A Christian simply has to learn to direct them, with homosexuality as with any other sexual sin. Sure, a person may struggle all their life long with this or that sin, but that is ok. Remember Paul's "thorn in the flesh" as well. We all have struggles, but pretending this is some unique thing that no one can do anything about goes against both the Bible and what anyone I have ever heard can show about the science as well.

My father is a attorney who was a D.A. for 8 years. He once asked a man why he stole a car, since he didn't seem to need it and had money and wasn't on drugs. The man replied, "I had to." When asked for more details he elaborated, "Because he wouldn't sell it to me for what I could afford." This to me is what the so called "can't help it" or "that's just a part of who and what they are" attitude leads to. Folks, in all honesty, just because it takes effort doesn't mean you can't. "Can't" is not a synonym for "I don't want to try that hard anymore."

[Shane Roach]

But Mimi,

You still deny that those thoughts are a sin.

Matthew 5:27 Ye have heard that it was said by them of old time, Thou shalt not commit adultery:

28 But I say unto you, That whosoever looketh on a woman to lust after her hath committed adultery with her already in his heart.

When my heart is wicked and I look upon a woman who is not my wife, I am committing adultery; just as you are when you have desires for another who is not your spouse. Grace and Peace.
The Bible tells us Jesus was tempted in all things as we are, yet was sinless. I think, respecfully, that you are misreading this verse. Seeing someone and being momentarily tempted is not a sin. It is when you resolve in your heart that should the opportunity present itself, you will sin, that it becomes sin. In other words, you don't actually have to do the thing for your heart to be impure. Still, I think it is false to say that merely being tempted is a sin, and I think it has done a good bit of harm to the Church, this scripture being interpreted the way it often seems to be.

[Shane Roach]

Even if hubs knows and doesn't blame me for my fantasies? I do not lie about it, I am not ashamed about it and I harm nobody this way. And even if I didn't fantasize and dream about it...is that also a sin? I would not be able to change or stop my dreams....

Lotta love & sunshine,
Mimi
I'd say the same to you only with a different emphasis. These flashes, temptations, thoughts, etc, they are not unique to you, that are not "who you are". They are just the result of your brain chemistry and whatever experiences you have, and perhaps, if you believe in such things, I might also say that spirits themselves can plant the seeds of temptation, but if you're not into that, that's fine. Whatever the source of these thoughts, though, the temptations and thoughts themselves are not the sin. It is giving in to them, feeding them, making plans to act on them that begins to be sin. But defining yourself by your temptations weakens your ability, in my opinion, to deal with them. Paul's example was to distance himself from them, saying that he warred against his flesh, not that it was a part of Him but that the new man warred against the old.

My two cents. :)

[ChiRho]

This thing about it being something intrinsic isn't even true to begin with, unless you believe no one really controls any actions or feelings.

Feelings change by changing attitudes. That's all it takes. Some attitudes are more ingrained than others. The other confusion I think a lot of people have is they confuse temptation with "orientation". A rather surprisingly large percentage of all men admit to having had homo erotic thoughts, or even brief experiences. Likewise, I would bet most homosexuals have heterosexual experience as well. The question is what you do with those thoughts and feelings. A Christian simply has to learn to direct them, with homosexuality as with any other sexual sin. Sure, a person may struggle all their life long with this or that sin, but that is ok. Remember Paul's "thorn in the flesh" as well. We all have struggles, but pretending this is some unique thing that no one can do anything about goes against both the Bible and what anyone I have ever heard can show about the science as well.

My father is a attorney who was a D.A. for 8 years. He once asked a man why he stole a car, since he didn't seem to need it and had money and wasn't on drugs. The man replied, "I had to." When asked for more details he elaborated, "Because he wouldn't sell it to me for what I could afford." This to me is what the so called "can't help it" or "that's just a part of who and what they are" attitude leads to. Folks, in all honesty, just because it takes effort doesn't mean you can't. "Can't" is not a synonym for "I don't want to try that hard anymore."

In all honesty, it is not that easy! Sin is a wretched disease that all of us are infected with. It is our very carnal nature, and we are completely responsible for it! To attempt to simple explain away sin as a result of the weak minded, is a Pietist's attempt at justification by the Law. Christ is not mere moral teacher nor inspirational example to look at and gain some inner strength from, which we can rightly avoid sin and keep the Law. He is our Redeemer. We cannot keep the Law, no matter how hard we try to make the Law more attainable. No matter how far our vain imaginations will deceive us...even causing us to believe that the problem of sinning is cured by a simple attitude adjustment or by changing the source of our motivation!


Luther correctly writes in his Large Catechism, "Inflated ideas, like new cloth, shrink in the Wash!"


We cannot change the reality that we fail miserably, and sin in all that we do and all that we leave undone! We sin in thought, word, and deed....always! The truth of the Law, the demanded perfect fulfillment of all that God has either commanded or forbidden, is a harsh and bitter reality to all of us, Law violators. We have no other choice but to feel condemnation when we stare at the Law. Let the Law serve It's purpose and expose our sins, so that we may confess them to the Lord and cling to His Promise of forgiveness!



Pax Christi,

ChiRho

[Wilfred of Ivanhoe]

The Bible tells us Jesus was tempted in all things as we are, yet was sinless. I think, respecfully, that you are misreading this verse. Seeing someone and being momentarily tempted is not a sin. It is when you resolve in your heart that should the opportunity present itself, you will sin, that it becomes sin. In other words, you don't actually have to do the thing for your heart to be impure. Still, I think it is false to say that merely being tempted is a sin, and I think it has done a good bit of harm to the Church, this scripture being interpreted the way it often seems to be.

I am sorry. I did not go deep enough into my interpretation. What I mean is that when I look upon a woman to lust and do not, in my heart, pray that Jesus would give me the stregnth to resist that temptation, but rather I enjoy those moments, that is the sin. I will not deny that to this day I still have the same lustful desires that I did in times past. The difference is that through the Lord's power, I am able to resist those temptations and I do not indulge myself in those things. You were right to clarify this.

[Wilfred of Ivanhoe]

Even if hubs knows and doesn't blame me for my fantasies? I do not lie about it, I am not ashamed about it and I harm nobody this way. And even if I didn't fantasize and dream about it...is that also a sin? I would not be able to change or stop my dreams....

Lotta love & sunshine,
Mimi

Sin is not defined as that which hurts another being. Sin is disobedience to God's law. Even sins of ignorance are still sin. I would recommend reading Leviticus 4 for clarification.

The thing you must understand is that by yourself you will never conquer your sins. It is nigh impossible. It is only through an earnest desire to change and through prayer that God will give you the stregnth to change. As I stated in my last post, I still have unholy desires frequently, but I am ashamed of my desires, and I feel unworthy to be called a son of God.

Grace and Peace

[Mimi]

I am sorry you feel that way. But I have denied myself long enough..I can't anymore. I think lying to myself and the people I love is worse.

Praying for you

Lotta love and sunshine,
Mimi

[Ceris]

Let us not forget 1 Corinthians 10:13 (NIV):
No temptation has seized you except what is common to man. And God is faithful; he will not let you be tempted beyond what you can bear. But when you are tempted, he will also provide a way out so that you can stand up under it.

I cannot tell you how often I have relied on the promise in this verse to carry me through tough times.

[Neenie]

Good verse ceris :clap: It helps me through tough times too...

[Gunny]

1 Now I Paul myself beseech you by the meekness and gentleness of Christ, who in presencea (http://www.christianforum.com/newreply.php?do=newreply&noquote=1&p=7977620#_ftn1) am base among you, but being absent am bold toward you:  2 But I beseech you, that I may not be bold when I am present with that confidence, wherewith I think to be bold against some, which thinkb (http://www.christianforum.com/newreply.php?do=newreply&noquote=1&p=7977620#_ftn2) of us as if we walked according to the flesh.  3 For though we walk in the flesh, we do not war after the flesh: 4 (For the weapons of our warfare are not carnal, but mighty through God to the pulling down of strong holds 5 Casting down imaginationsc (http://www.christianforum.com/newreply.php?do=newreply&noquote=1&p=7977620#_ftn3), and every high thing that exalteth itself against the knowledge of God, and bringing into captivity every thought to the obedience of Christ;  6 And having in a readiness to revenge all disobedience, when your obedience is fulfilled.

a (http://www.christianforum.com/newreply.php?do=newreply&noquote=1&p=7977620#_ftnref1)in presence: or, in outward appearance

b (http://www.christianforum.com/newreply.php?do=newreply&noquote=1&p=7977620#_ftnref2)think: or, reckon

c (http://www.christianforum.com/newreply.php?do=newreply&noquote=1&p=7977620#_ftnref3)imaginations: or, reasonings

The Holy Bible : King James Version. 1995 (2 Co 10:1-6). Oak Harbor, WA: Logos Research Systems, Inc.





4 But you, brothers and sisters, are not living in darkness, and so that day will not surprise you like a thief. 5 You are all people who belong to the light and to the day. We do not belong to the night or to darkness. 6 So we should not be like other people who are sleeping, but we should be alert and have self-control. 7 Those who sleep, sleep at night. Those who get drunk, get drunk at night. 8 But we belong to the day, so we should control ourselves. We should wear faith and love to protect us, and the hope of salvation should be our helmet. 9 God did not choose us to suffer his anger but to have salvation through our Lord Jesus Christ. 10 Jesus died for us so that we can live together with him, whether we are alive or dead when he comes. 11 So encourage each other and give each other strength, just as you are doing now.



The Holy Bible : New Century Version , containing the Old and New Testaments. 1991 (1 Th 5:4-10). Dallas, TX: Word Bibles.




11 That is the way we should live, because God’s grace that can save everyone has come. 12 It teaches us not to live against God nor to do the evil things the world wants to do. Instead, that grace teaches us to live now in a wise and right way and in a way that shows we serve God. 13 We should live like that while we wait for our great hope and the coming of the glory of our great God and Savior Jesus Christ. 14 He gave himself for us so he might pay the price to free us from all evil and to make us pure people who belong only to him—people who are always wanting to do good deeds. The Holy Bible : New Century Version , containing the Old and New Testaments. 1991 (Titus 2:11-12). Dallas, TX: Word Bibles.

[Mimi]

Those laws they made then are not of these days. There are so many laws in the OT. They were a sort of social security for the people at that time, as well as important for hygiene (like the laws about mestruation and STD's). Also other cultures allowed homosexuality and considered it normal. Israel wanted to be different, because they thought that because those cultures did not believe in one God, they lived a sinful life. So they wanted to be different. They made these laws that were adapted to those times.

Nowadays these things are not a topic anymore. We have other means to care for our personal hygiene and we have condoms today that protect you from STD's and pregnancies........not all people do this but this as true for heterosexuals as well. cervix cancer is caused by bad hygiene from the male. Condoms also protect sexual active women against that (And it also happens inside a marriage ......)

I find that the fundies are not objective when it comes to those laws. They refuse to accept some rules, because they were of that time and age..yet they accept other laws that are of that same time. They use laws if it up their alleys and call it the difference between symbolic and moralistic laws. Well......:P To me it is just a way to discriminate people who have a different life style, with a religious excuse.

I know gay people that are much better Christians...respect, love and compassion are high in their way of life. We now know that homosexuality is a normal occurance in nature......425 species (give or take a few) including Homo sapiens have gay relationships. The Bonobo are pure bisexual individuals. So please wake up. It is time that all people are treated equal........no matter what race, color, creed, sexual orientation or gender you have! That is what we call human rights.

Some people behave like those muslim countries that put homosexuals to death or put them in jail...........talking about fundamentalists...Fred Phelps is such an idiot.

And who is to say that Christian faith is the only true faith.....How sure are we that God is indeed a Christian God. Maybe He is a Hindu God or whatever......

[ChrisB]

Those laws they made then are not of these days. There are so many laws in the OT.

Not only the OT condemns homosexuality but the NT too

Romans 1

26Because of this, God gave them over to shameful lusts. Even their women exchanged natural relations for unnatural ones. 27In the same way the men also abandoned natural relations with women and were inflamed with lust for one another. Men committed indecent acts with other men, and received in themselves the due penalty for their perversion.


I find that the fundies are not objective when it comes to those laws. They refuse to accept some rules, because they were of that time and age..yet they accept other laws that are of that same time. They use laws if it up their alleys and call it the difference between symbolic and moralistic laws. Well......:P To me it is just a way to discriminate people who have a different life style, with a religious excuse.

I don't regard myself as bound by levitical law. Jesus fulfilled the law for us by His death on the cross - however God's laws are laid down in the Bible as a whole, not merely in leviticus.


I know gay people that are much better Christians...respect, love and compassion are high in their way of life. We now know that homosexuality is a normal occurance in nature......425 species (give or take a few) including Homo sapiens have gay relationships. The Bonobo are pure bisexual individuals. So please wake up. It is time that all people are treated equal........no matter what race, color, creed, sexual orientation or gender you have! That is what we call human rights.

Some people behave like those muslim countries that put homosexuals to death or put them in jail...........talking about fundamentalists...Fred Phelps is such an idiot.

I don't know who Fred Phelps is, but abuse is not a good example of the respect, love and compassion you value so highly.

I'd never advocate discrimination against gay people, but the question whether or not homosexulity is a sin is a different matter.


And who is to say that Christian faith is the only true faith.....How sure are we that God is indeed a Christian God. Maybe He is a Hindu God or whatever......

This puzzles me - are you a fundamentalist?

[kdet]

Those laws they made then are not of these days. There are so many laws in the OT. They were a sort of social security for the people at that time, as well as important for hygiene (like the laws about mestruation and STD's). Also other cultures allowed homosexuality and considered it normal. Israel wanted to be different, because they thought that because those cultures did not believe in one God, they lived a sinful life. So they wanted to be different. They made these laws that were adapted to those times.

Nowadays these things are not a topic anymore. We have other means to care for our personal hygiene and we have condoms today that protect you from STD's and pregnancies........not all people do this but this as true for heterosexuals as well. cervix cancer is caused by bad hygiene from the male. Condoms also protect sexual active women against that (And it also happens inside a marriage ......)

I find that the fundies are not objective when it comes to those laws. They refuse to accept some rules, because they were of that time and age..yet they accept other laws that are of that same time. They use laws if it up their alleys and call it the difference between symbolic and moralistic laws. Well......:P To me it is just a way to discriminate people who have a different life style, with a religious excuse.

I know gay people that are much better Christians...respect, love and compassion are high in their way of life. We now know that homosexuality is a normal occurance in nature......425 species (give or take a few) including Homo sapiens have gay relationships. The Bonobo are pure bisexual individuals. So please wake up. It is time that all people are treated equal........no matter what race, color, creed, sexual orientation or gender you have! That is what we call human rights.

Some people behave like those muslim countries that put homosexuals to death or put them in jail...........talking about fundamentalists...Fred Phelps is such an idiot.

And who is to say that Christian faith is the only true faith.....How sure are we that God is indeed a Christian God. Maybe He is a Hindu God or whatever......Really Mimi, you have so much going on in that post that I don't even know which fallacy to address first. As a Christian I respect and do my best to adhere to, the laws and commandments that God has given us by His Holy Word. That includes homosexuality being an abomination. It a lifestyle that goes directly against God's Word.
Secondly, I know many non-Christians that are good people, but that isn't going to get them into Heaven, so your comment that you know gays people that are better than Christians is meaningless. And we know that Christianity is the only true faith because God told us so.
I have no problem treating people equally, I do have a problem enabling people to go to Hell.

[Mimi]

I believe in God, but I also realize that I can be wrong. It sounds weird, because I have faith in Him. But I always keep in mind that the bible is written by people that lived in that time and age. We live in the now. I don't consider homosexuality a sin. As a biologist I don't see any reason that nature is wrong and to me God is nature, the universe......all that lives. God is not only above us. He is in us. Maybe DNA is His signature.....or maybe DNA is part of Him...and He gave it to all life through something called evolution. I know I sound shocking for some Christians, but this is to me my truth.....and truth is, as we all know, subjective, because we look at the world in our own way. I love to read the bible, it calms me, comforts me and for me it is a part of praying. But I will never say that I have the truth or a book has the truth. Paper is patient....and who am I to say that someone sins...I am not a God....nor will I be. :)

[ChiRho]

I believe in God, but I also realize that I can be wrong. It sounds weird, because I have faith in Him. But I always keep in mind that the bible is written by people that lived in that time and age. We live in the now. I don't consider homosexuality a sin. As a biologist I don't see any reason that nature is wrong and to me God is nature, the universe......all that lives. God is not only above us. He is in us. Maybe DNA is His signature.....or maybe DNA is part of Him...and He gave it to all life through something called evolution. I know I sound shocking for some Christians, but this is to me my truth.....and truth is, as we all know, subjective, because we look at the world in our own way. I love to read the bible, it calms me, comforts me and for me it is a part of praying. But I will never say that I have the truth or a book has the truth. Paper is patient....and who am I to say that someone sins...I am not a God....nor will I be. :)

Truth is not relative! The "god is everything" theory sounds much like New-Age and Hinduism. God is not part of His creation. He is the Creator. I do not judge what a sin is, but God certainly does. His Law, is not only expressed clearly in Holy Scripture, but it is also written upon our hearts.

Mor about your "subjective truth" idea. Consider the following statement written by you:

But I will never say that I have the truth or a book has the truth.....and who am I to say that someone sins...I am not a God....nor will I be.

Clearly you are appealing to some objective understanding that you assume all people have. You do not believe truth is relative in this case, but objective, as you assume all of us believe it is good to practice humility. It is not good, moral, or right to be arrogant, boastful, conceited, nor all-knowing...but how do you know what is good and what is bad? If I believe having sex with a five year old is good, according to my relative truth, what makes it wrong? Follow this out to it's logical conclusion.

Pax Christi,

ChiRho

[Mimi]

Truth is not relative! The "god is everything" theory sounds much like New-Age and Hinduism. God is not part of His creation. He is the Creator. I do not judge what a sin is, but God certainly does. His Law, is not only expressed clearly in Holy Scripture, but it is also written upon our hearts.

Mor about your "subjective truth" idea. Consider the following statement written by you:



Clearly you are appealing to some objective understanding that you assume all people have. You do not believe truth is relative in this case, but objective, as you assume all of us believe it is good to practice humility. It is not good, moral, or right to be arrogant, boastful, conceited, nor all-knowing...but how do you know what is good and what is bad? If I believe having sex with a five year old is good, according to my relative truth, what makes it wrong? Follow this out to it's logical conclusion.

Pax Christi,

ChiRhoSweet ChiRho

That is a matter of morality, having sex with a five year old is abuse, cause the five year old has no ideawhat is happening......

But I don't judge your way of thinking...I just explained mine...and what has sex with a five yo has to do with homosexuality??

:scratch:

Subjective truth is biological proven.
:wave:

[ChrisB]

Subjective truth is biological proven.


Truth has nothing to do with biology. If I say the world is flat because I cannot see the curvature of the earth standing in my garden that doesn't make it flat! I would not be speaking the truth......

[ChiRho]

Sweet ChiRho

That is a matter of morality, having sex with a five year old is abuse, cause the five year old has no ideawhat is happening......

But I don't judge your way of thinking...I just explained mine...and what has sex with a five yo has to do with homosexuality??

:scratch:

Subjective truth is biological proven.
:wave:

Dearest Mimi,

Do you believe that abuse is wrong for just you personally, or for everyone?

I was using the horrible sin of pedophilia, to demonstrate that truth is not merely subjective, but completely objective. For if truth was subjective, then we could never claim that someone is guilty, for what standard would we use, if all truth is subjective or relative?

Pax Christi,

ChiRho

[Shane Roach]

Another way for a Christian to look at truth that I believe is more firmly rooted in the Bible is that while what is "good" or "bad" may be subjective, God's definition of it is the one we as Christians go by. I discovered this when arguing on and on about the idea of subjective good and evil, and decided that, while I agree that all of us filter what we believe is good or bad through our own subjective means, God's definitions are the ones I am more concerned about, and esepcially as they are revealed in terms of things like love, justice, mercy, and decency or "cleanliness".

[Shane Roach]

In all honesty, it is not that easy! Sin is a wretched disease that all of us are infected with. It is our very carnal nature, and we are completely responsible for it! To attempt to simple explain away sin as a result of the weak minded, is a Pietist's attempt at justification by the Law. Christ is not mere moral teacher nor inspirational example to look at and gain some inner strength from, which we can rightly avoid sin and keep the Law. He is our Redeemer. We cannot keep the Law, no matter how hard we try to make the Law more attainable. No matter how far our vain imaginations will deceive us...even causing us to believe that the problem of sinning is cured by a simple attitude adjustment or by changing the source of our motivation!


Luther correctly writes in his Large Catechism, "Inflated ideas, like new cloth, shrink in the Wash!"


We cannot change the reality that we fail miserably, and sin in all that we do and all that we leave undone! We sin in thought, word, and deed....always! The truth of the Law, the demanded perfect fulfillment of all that God has either commanded or forbidden, is a harsh and bitter reality to all of us, Law violators. We have no other choice but to feel condemnation when we stare at the Law. Let the Law serve It's purpose and expose our sins, so that we may confess them to the Lord and cling to His Promise of forgiveness!



Pax Christi,

ChiRho
I didn't say it was easy, and I wasn't trying to explain away sin or any other such thing. What I am talking about here is the assertion that homosexuality is somehow unique in that we cannot do anything about "sexual orientation". I can't really address anything you've written here as I agree with all of it, but it has nothing to do with what I was trying to explain. :)

[ChiRho]

I didn't say it was easy, and I wasn't trying to explain away sin or any other such thing. What I am talking about here is the assertion that homosexuality is somehow unique in that we cannot do anything about "sexual orientation". I can't really address anything you've written here as I agree with all of it, but it has nothing to do with what I was trying to explain. :)

I guess my contention was with the following statement:

Folks, in all honesty, just because it takes effort doesn't mean you can't. "Can't" is not a synonym for "I don't want to try that hard anymore."

From this I gathered that you were promoting the idea, that the battle of sin, can be fought by refocusing, or by trying a bit harder. I guess it really is a question of your definition of free will. Maybe I read too much into it. Do you think that man is capable of choosing good over evil?

Pax Christi,

ChiRho

[Ceris]

I know this much:
No temptation has seized you except what is common to man. And God is faithful; he will not let you be tempted beyond what you can bear. But when you are tempted, he will also provide a way out so that you can stand up under it. (1 Corinthians 10:13)

[Plan 9]

I know this much:
No temptation has seized you except what is common to man. And God is faithful; he will not let you be tempted beyond what you can bear. But when you are tempted, he will also provide a way out so that you can stand up under it. (1 Corinthians 10:13)


I don't believe I will ever have the opportunity to marry again, I never had children, and as I spend year after year alone, each one more isolated than the last, I must say, true as that scripture is, and as much as I value endurance, I often find it cold comfort, my friend.

[Shane Roach]

I guess my contention was with the following statement:



From this I gathered that you were promoting the idea, that the battle of sin, can be fought by refocusing, or by trying a bit harder. I guess it really is a question of your definition of free will. Maybe I read too much into it. Do you think that man is capable of choosing good over evil?

Pax Christi,

ChiRho
I'm not sure what difference it makes, predestiny vs. choice. My understanding is that God calls us from our sins, and His Spirit enables us to respond to that call, so the bottom line is, sin is sin and people are called to avoid it. It applies to homosexuality as much as any other sin.

As far as singling out that one sentence, I think even outside of the context of the whole rest of the post it draws on personal experience of how people, whether they are Christian or not, can and do change habitual behaviors by changing attitudes. You may argue they are just trading one sinful way of thinking for another, but the point is that that people can and do change, inside and outside the church, and that due to what most of us refer to our own choices, or will.

[ChiRho]

I'm not sure what difference it makes, predestiny vs. choice. My understanding is that God calls us from our sins, and His Spirit enables us to respond to that call, so the bottom line is, sin is sin and people are called to avoid it. It applies to homosexuality as much as any other sin.

As far as singling out that one sentence, I think even outside of the context of the whole rest of the post it draws on personal experience of how people, whether they are Christian or not, can and do change habitual behaviors by changing attitudes. You may argue they are just trading one sinful way of thinking for another, but the point is that that people can and do change, inside and outside the church, and that due to what most of us refer to our own choices, or will.

Well...are you suggesting that we have the power to seek God and to choose good on our own?

There is a difference between possessing the ability to keep and fulfill moral or ethical laws, and spiritual matters. The former (moral or ethical standards) is definitely attainable, while the latter (spiritual matters) is not attainable man. Moral or ethical laws certainly are accomplished by people everywhere, while remaining ungodly and wicked. We cannot make ourselves better no matter how hard we try.

Pax Christi,

ChiRho

[Shane Roach]

Well...are you suggesting that we have the power to seek God and to choose good on our own?

There is a difference between possessing the ability to keep and fulfill moral or ethical laws, and spiritual matters. The former (moral or ethical standards) is definitely attainable, while the latter (spiritual matters) is not attainable man. Moral or ethical laws certainly are accomplished by people everywhere, while remaining ungodly and wicked. We cannot make ourselves better no matter how hard we try.

Pax Christi,

ChiRho
God first chose us, not the other way around.

Are you suggesting homosexuality is not a sin, or that it is uniquely unforgiveable, or that it is beyond anyone's ability to change, or what is the relation between this and the post I made originally? I am having a problem understanding your point.

[Shane Roach]

I guess my contention was with the following statement:



From this I gathered that you were promoting the idea, that the battle of sin, can be fought by refocusing, or by trying a bit harder. I guess it really is a question of your definition of free will. Maybe I read too much into it. Do you think that man is capable of choosing good over evil?

Pax Christi,

ChiRho
Put in simplest terms, I am stating that the battle of sin CAN BE WON, not any of the other things you keep asserting. I am asserting that homosexuality is not some special genetic sin that no one can help.

[kdet]

Put in simplest terms, I am stating that the battle of sin CAN BE WON, not any of the other things you keep asserting. I am asserting that homosexuality is not some special genetic sin that no one can help.
Amen to that! We need to be reminded daily that with God ALL things are possible.! :clap:

[J.A.I]

Luke 1:37 MKJV
37 For with God nothing shall be impossible.

[Adoniram]

Perhaps some enlightenment can be drawn from the following passage from James-

James 1 (KJV)
12 Blessed is the man that endureth temptation: for when he is tried, he shall receive the crown of life, which the Lord hath promised to them that love him.
13 Let no man say when he is tempted, I am tempted of God: for God cannot be tempted with evil, neither tempteth he any man:
14 But every man is tempted, when he is drawn away of his own lust, and enticed.
15 Then when lust hath conceived, it bringeth forth sin: and sin, when it is finished, bringeth forth death.

(NIV)
12 Blessed is the man who perseveres under trial, because when he has stood the test, he will receive the crown of life that God has promised to those who love him.
13 When tempted, no one should say, "God is tempting me." For God cannot be tempted by evil, nor does he tempt anyone; 14 but each one is tempted when, by his own evil desire, he is dragged away and enticed. 15 Then, after desire has conceived, it gives birth to sin; and sin, when it is full-grown, gives birth to death.

Concerning homosexuality, first, I do not believe that people are born that way. Why would God, at conception, instill in a created being a "nature" that he has declared to be an abomination? It is an acquired trait. Second, just because someone declares themselves to be homosexual does not, at least according to the way I read the above passage, mean they are sinning. The sin occurs when they give in to their desire and commit the act. Temptation does not equal sin. Otherwise, there would be no hope for any of us. (Note- I'm not certain how the above passage squares with what Jesus said about lusting in your heart being the same as having already committed the act. Perhaps somebody has some ideas?)

The question is, is it possible for the homosexual to find salvation in the Lord? I believe that it is, just as it is for all sinners. However, true repentence means turning away from our natural tendencies to sin, and endeavoring to be holy even as our Lord is holy. Like the rest of us, the homosexual, upon becoming a Christian, must do his best to not succumb to the temptations that confront him. He must abstain from that lifestyle. Upon occasion, he, like the rest of us, may fail. But the Lord is quick to forgive us of our failures when we ask for forgiveness.

The issue then becomes- can a Christian be a practising homosexual? I believe the answer to that is no. He would not have come to true repentence. No one can serve two masters. He cannot serve God and also the sin of homosexuality. Becoming a Christian entails forsaking your former sinful practises. Jesus said to the prostitute, "Your sins are forgiven, go and sin no more." That doesn't mean that he expects us to be perfect, but we are not to serve sin by remaining in the practise of it as though nothing was wrong. One who is not willing or desirous of abandoning his sinful practices must question whether his "conversion experience" is real. These are matters of the heart's desires. When one becomes a Christian, God places new desires to be holy and serve God in your heart. If those new desires are not first and formost over the old desires, then something is wrong.

Well, enough said for now.

God Bless

[J.A.I]

Perhaps some enlightenment can be drawn from the following passage from James-

James 1 (KJV)
12 Blessed is the man that endureth temptation: for when he is tried, he shall receive the crown of life, which the Lord hath promised to them that love him.
13 Let no man say when he is tempted, I am tempted of God: for God cannot be tempted with evil, neither tempteth he any man:
14 But every man is tempted, when he is drawn away of his own lust, and enticed.
15 Then when lust hath conceived, it bringeth forth sin: and sin, when it is finished, bringeth forth death.

(NIV)
12 Blessed is the man who perseveres under trial, because when he has stood the test, he will receive the crown of life that God has promised to those who love him.
13 When tempted, no one should say, "God is tempting me." For God cannot be tempted by evil, nor does he tempt anyone; 14 but each one is tempted when, by his own evil desire, he is dragged away and enticed. 15 Then, after desire has conceived, it gives birth to sin; and sin, when it is full-grown, gives birth to death.

Concerning homosexuality, first, I do not believe that people are born that way. Why would God, at conception, instill in a created being a "nature" that he has declared to be an abomination? It is an acquired trait. Second, just because someone declares themselves to be homosexual does not, at least according to the way I read the above passage, mean they are sinning. The sin occurs when they give in to their desire and commit the act. Temptation does not equal sin. Otherwise, there would be no hope for any of us. (Note- I'm not certain how the above passage squares with what Jesus said about lusting in your heart being the same as having already committed the act. Perhaps somebody has some ideas?)

The question is, is it possible for the homosexual to find salvation in the Lord? I believe that it is, just as it is for all sinners. However, true repentence means turning away from our natural tendencies to sin, and endeavoring to be holy even as our Lord is holy. Like the rest of us, the homosexual, upon becoming a Christian, must do his best to not succumb to the temptations that confront him. He must abstain from that lifestyle. Upon occasion, he, like the rest of us, may fail. But the Lord is quick to forgive us of our failures when we ask for forgiveness.

The issue then becomes- can a Christian be a practising homosexual? I believe the answer to that is no. He would not have come to true repentence. No one can serve two masters. He cannot serve God and also the sin of homosexuality. Becoming a Christian entails forsaking your former sinful practises. Jesus said to the prostitute, "Your sins are forgiven, go and sin no more." That doesn't mean that he expects us to be perfect, but we are not to serve sin by remaining in the practise of it as though nothing was wrong. One who is not willing or desirous of abandoning his sinful practices must question whether his "conversion experience" is real. These are matters of the heart's desires. When one becomes a Christian, God places new desires to be holy and serve God in your heart. If those new desires are not first and formost over the old desires, then something is wrong.

Well, enough said for now.

God Bless

Amen. You are speaking the absolute truth.

[PatrickM]

Glad to see the thread get back on track here :D

*patrick was enjoying breathing the clean, fresh air of simple, fundy Biblical faith and practice as witnessed at the beginning of this thread*

[Polycarp1]

Second, just because someone declares themselves to be homosexual does not, at least according to the way I read the above passage, mean they are sinning. The sin occurs when they give in to their desire and commit the act. Temptation does not equal sin. Otherwise, there would be no hope for any of us. (Note- I'm not certain how the above passage squares with what Jesus said about lusting in your heart being the same as having already committed the act. Perhaps somebody has some ideas?)
I am not looking to debate in a forum to which I don't qualify for membership.

But I can share one bit of teaching by a wise Episcopal priest that may help deal with the particular question you raise.

The standard for sexual temptation in thought of all kinds (together with anything else founded in drives or emotions over which your will has only ongoing, as opposed to instantaneous, control) is that you will not entertain sinful impulses. And he used a memorable analogy to explain this. "Your mind," he said, "is like a house on a busy city street. You have no control over what walks by on the sidewalk, and which you can see through the windows. But because a temptation passes by and you notice it, does not give you license to bring it into the house, pull up an easy chair for it, and fix it a drink." In other words, spontaneous involuntary reactions are normal and not sinful -- but dwelling on them -- "entertaining them" -- is.

[Adoniram]

Thankyou Polycarp1-

That's the way I thought it was. You might see, for instance, a lovely woman and think "she's beautiful" and be OK. But when you start thinking "Boy, I would love to..." is when it becomes a problem (lust) and a sin.

[BarbB]

I am not looking to debate in a forum to which I don't qualify for membership.

But I can share one bit of teaching by a wise Episcopal priest that may help deal with the particular question you raise.

The standard for sexual temptation in thought of all kinds (together with anything else founded in drives or emotions over which your will has only ongoing, as opposed to instantaneous, control) is that you will not entertain sinful impulses. And he used a memorable analogy to explain this. "Your mind," he said, "is like a house on a busy city street. You have no control over what walks by on the sidewalk, and which you can see through the windows. But because a temptation passes by and you notice it, does not give you license to bring it into the house, pull up an easy chair for it, and fix it a drink." In other words, spontaneous involuntary reactions are normal and not sinful -- but dwelling on them -- "entertaining them" -- is.

Good enough that it deserves repeating, even in a fundie thread.

Hey PatrickM, glad you found us. I've got the Flyers/Lightening game on! Can't tell how it's going to turn out! :confused:

[Protoevangel]

I am not looking to debate in a forum to which I don't qualify for membership.

But I can share one bit of teaching by a wise Episcopal priest that may help deal with the particular question you raise.

The standard for sexual temptation in thought of all kinds (together with anything else founded in drives or emotions over which your will has only ongoing, as opposed to instantaneous, control) is that you will not entertain sinful impulses. And he used a memorable analogy to explain this. "Your mind," he said, "is like a house on a busy city street. You have no control over what walks by on the sidewalk, and which you can see through the windows. But because a temptation passes by and you notice it, does not give you license to bring it into the house, pull up an easy chair for it, and fix it a drink." In other words, spontaneous involuntary reactions are normal and not sinful -- but dwelling on them -- "entertaining them" -- is.
Most excelent post! We are in 100% agreement, that must be a first! --lol-- :D

Much love, my brother.

[ChrisB]

I am not looking to debate in a forum to which I don't qualify for membership.

But I can share one bit of teaching by a wise Episcopal priest that may help deal with the particular question you raise.

The standard for sexual temptation in thought of all kinds (together with anything else founded in drives or emotions over which your will has only ongoing, as opposed to instantaneous, control) is that you will not entertain sinful impulses. And he used a memorable analogy to explain this. "Your mind," he said, "is like a house on a busy city street. You have no control over what walks by on the sidewalk, and which you can see through the windows. But because a temptation passes by and you notice it, does not give you license to bring it into the house, pull up an easy chair for it, and fix it a drink." In other words, spontaneous involuntary reactions are normal and not sinful -- but dwelling on them -- "entertaining them" -- is.

Excellent analogy - thank you Polycarp1

[BarbB]

Well, the vote's in and Polycarp is an honorary fundie! Maybe we can use him as a go-between to state our case sympathetically and accurately to the liberal Christians! :hug:

[PatrickM]

Hey PatrickM, glad you found us. I've got the Flyers/Lightening game on! Can't tell how it's going to turn out! :confused:
*Off topic alert*

Oh, hockey, well that's ok then! ;)

I think TB is going to win, and be in the finals. My expert opinion. What's that? Oh, that was a couple days ago? :D

Just curious, this thread started out to be a "safe house" for those of the same opinion. Must all threads end up in debate? Is there another thread where I can go to stay with those of like minds re: this topic? I like debate as much as the next person, but there's times I like to enjoy like-minded discussion (which I thot this thread was intended).

[J.A.I]

Patrick - Well, there is supposed to be no debate in the forum. It's almost unavoidable. Please stay in here :)

[PatrickM]

Patrick - Well, there is supposed to be no debate in the forum. It's almost unavoidable. Please stay in here :)
Thanx, JAI. Ah, shucks, I guess I'll park it here for a spell ;)

Really, my question was not meant to be a "I'm taking my ball, and going home" statement. I was sooo enjoying the beginning of this thread.

[TCapp]

What is irritating is that you are automatically called names just for having informed convictions. I don't mean blind hatred or even dislike. Hating "just because", as they would claim. (Not that I hate them, anyway)

How would it be if they have informed convictions against something immoral? Alchophobes? Cigaretteaphobes? Thiefaphobes? :| Pedophobes? If one has informed convictions as to why pedophilia is wrong, should they be called names?

I guess I'm a "smokeaphobe". I hate smoking. It is nasty and it damages health and shortens the lives of smokers. By this logic, I must hate or fear my own mother. I must want to deny her this "right" to smoke. Perhaps I even want to "disown" her or want her dead.

Maybe we should sue or imprison those folks who want to ban public smoking. They are all smokeaphobes. Their anti-smoking diatribe is a hate-crime. They are forcing their anti-smoking morality on smokers. How dare they!

:sigh:

[BarbB]

I know, TCapp. Florida of all states is now totally non-smoking in restaurants. Only one of the restaurants (and dives :D ) that I liked changed to liquor only so that the owners could smoke. Now I'm back in New Jersey which is supposed to have an educated, environmentally sensitive population and smoking is allowed throughout the whole restaurant, as long as you post a sign saying that smoking is allowed. Ugh! Fortunately, some restaurants are going non-smoking anyway! It's most pleasant.

p.s. Can't tell I'm a reformed smoker, can you! I am definitely a smokeaphobe. I cannot and do not tolerate smoke. I am bigotted against smokers! But I have a couple of smokers whom I love (I just wish they would quit)!

[EdmundBlackadderTheThird]

I wish I could quit, been trying for years actually. But I get so moody that I had a boss actually go buy me a pack and send me home for the day with pay under instructions to never try and quit while at work again. I can't do the patch as I am allergic to something in it. One day I will take a camping trip, alone, be dropped off 60 miles from the nearest store and not be extracted for a week, with no smokes...

[BarbB]

I quit with the patch, flesh99, and I fully intended to stay on it for the rest of my life, but at day 20 or so, I got big pink patches of itchy skin and then I itched all over. I had to take benedryl! LOL! So I had to quit the patch.

I have no idea how I did quit. I wasn't a Christian then. My husband quit at the same time and that helped. But we were really ugly for a while and ate a lot of chips and dip and really bad stuff! :D

[EdmundBlackadderTheThird]

I gut 1/4" of swelling within 3 hours of applying the patch, and it gets worse from there! I don't have anyone else who smokes in my family, my kids tell me it smells (when they are outside with me), my dad is an ex-smoker. God will deliver me from it when it is time, he delivered me from drugs already, and much more! I know in His time I will quit.

[kdet]

I quit with the patch, flesh99, and I fully intended to stay on it for the rest of my life, but at day 20 or so, I got big pink patches of itchy skin and then I itched all over. I had to take benedryl! LOL! So I had to quit the patch.

I have no idea how I did quit. I wasn't a Christian then. My husband quit at the same time and that helped. But we were really ugly for a while and ate a lot of chips and dip and really bad stuff! :D
I quit New Lamb after smoking two packs a day for 25 years. I quit using Zyban and the patch and it's been over 2 years now!

[TCapp]

Ooh! You're implying smokers can change! :eek:. I mean, weren't you born smokers? :D ;) I mean, tsk tsk for implying that someone can change from a smoking-orientation to a non-smoking-orientation! :D

* laughs are her own goofy mood.

[Paula]

OK, OK, I confess to also being a "smoke-aphobe", a reformed smoker of the worst kind. I picked up the habit in my late teens. But my parents who are also reformed smokers, which directly resulted in my becoming a "closet" smoker. I hid my habit from everyone because I was ashamed of it and also because smoking is so "un-PC." It also defiles the body which is the TEmple of the Holy Spirit. I also have a sister who is a closet smoker, and I pray that the Lord will also deliver her from the nicotine habit.

[Wilfred of Ivanhoe]

I am not looking to debate in a forum to which I don't qualify for membership.

But I can share one bit of teaching by a wise Episcopal priest that may help deal with the particular question you raise.

The standard for sexual temptation in thought of all kinds (together with anything else founded in drives or emotions over which your will has only ongoing, as opposed to instantaneous, control) is that you will not entertain sinful impulses. And he used a memorable analogy to explain this. "Your mind," he said, "is like a house on a busy city street. You have no control over what walks by on the sidewalk, and which you can see through the windows. But because a temptation passes by and you notice it, does not give you license to bring it into the house, pull up an easy chair for it, and fix it a drink." In other words, spontaneous involuntary reactions are normal and not sinful -- but dwelling on them -- "entertaining them" -- is.

Bravo! Well stated!

God has cleansed me of my slavery to my sexual desires, but those impulses still occur in my head without me even thinking of them. The Deciever is still hard at work. But with God on my side, who can be against me in this!!!

[BarbB]

God will deliver me from it when it is time, he delivered me from drugs already, and much more! I know in His time I will quit.

I believe this also! I'm just going to pray for your sake that it's soon! :hug:

Sweetkitty - aren't we just the cats pajamas. I have to admit that I dream about smoking though. In my dream I know that I quit, so I smoke a pack at a party and then say, OK I'll just quit again. Ha - like it was that simple. NOT!

[BarbB]

Ooh! You're implying smokers can change! :eek:. I mean, weren't you born smokers? :D ;) I mean, tsk tsk for implying that someone can change from a smoking-orientation to a non-smoking-orientation! :D

* laughs are her own goofy mood.

I LOVE your goofy mood - good spoof - good goofy spoof - whatever! :D