The Doctrine of the power of unbelief.

[jeolmstead]

WOF and PHIA doctrine maintains that healing, prosperity, and all the good gifts from God are procured at the cross. They are ours already

God wants us to be healthy, wealthy, and wise

Since many Christians do not meet the requirements it is necessary to explain that.

The explanation is since we are sure our doctrine is correct, and God is not a liar the problem lies squarely on the believer.

The problem is described in either not enough faith, or unbelief.

Faith is a positive ethereal force; unbelief is a negative ethereal force.

“God would heal you if you had more faith”

Proof text for this comes from the instances where Jesus rebuked his followers for their lack of faith or when he commends someone for their great faith.

This is problematic however in that in each case Jesus’ response was to heal or deliver. His response for those with little faith and those with great faith was the same.

“Jesus could not do many things in His home town because of their unbelief”

This is presented as proof text that unbelief is so powerful that even Jesus could not overcome it.

I do not believe that scripture makes that case at all. All it really means is they didn’t believe in Him so they didn’t ask of Him They didn’t even consider Him to be more than the carpenter’s son. This is not any different then people now who don’t believe and don’t ask today.


The real message of the mustard seed is not that it takes “great faith” it is that it takes a little. Just enough to ask.


John O.

[Tamara224]

“Jesus could not do many things in His home town because of their unbelief”

This is presented as proof text that unbelief is so powerful that even Jesus could not overcome it.

I do not believe that scripture makes that case at all. All it really means is they didn’t believe in Him so they didn’t ask of Him They didn’t even consider Him to be more than the carpenter’s son. This is not any different then people now who don’t believe and don’t ask today.


The real message of the mustard seed is not that it takes “great faith” it is that it takes a little. Just enough to ask.


John O.


I agree, John.

Another thought about the time when Jesus couldn't do any great miracles in his home town.

They had rejected him. So what good would it have done him to perform great miracles amongst them? The reason he performed miracles was, as Matthew said, to fulfill the prophecies and proclaim through his actions that he was the promised messiah.

But the people in his home town couldn't get past their prejudice when they saw him - they saw Joseph the carpenter's son. They couldn't see the Messiah.

Another thing about that passage... it says that Jesus could do no great miracles there besides healing some people. So... maybe the "great miracles" were something other than healing.

[Andry]

WOF and PHIA doctrine maintains that healing, prosperity, and all the good gifts from God are procured at the cross. They are ours already John O.
This comes from a lack of understanding of the mystery of the Kingdom.

Oversimplified...

1. That the Kingdom of God is still in the future;
2. That the Kingdom of God has arrived in the present;
3. That the Kingdom of God is going to arrive at any minute, it is very near;
4. And that the Kingdom of God has been delayed.

All of it is true at the same time.

The Kingdom of God, the future world, the end of the age, has mysteriously, unexpectedly, miraculously invaded the present world in the person of Jesus Christ and in the Day of Pentecost. Two ages now exist simultaneously: the future age has already begun, but this age has not yet ended. And we therefore live in eschatological tension, which means we live in the "already" and the "not yet". We are already living in the powers of the Kingdom and yet we are not yet living in the coming of the Kingdom.

IOW, healing is in the atonement. Some of us will get healed in this lifetime; others in the next age.

And a miracle - be it healing or otherwise - is when the Kingdom touches (manifest, reveals, invades, etc.) our present world. And as this age comes to a close, we will get even more Kingdom manifestations (that's what revivals are) and in greater frequency....so we'll see and experience more healings and other miracles.

Just my 0.02.

[MrSnow]

I agree with the PHIA camp that we will all be healed because of Christ's death and resurrection. But I believe that that will happen primarily in the resurrection, which is the ultimate act of healing. At that time we will have perfectly healthy bodies which will never again get sick or undergo corruption, and which will last for all eternity.

[ANM29]

WOF and PHIA doctrine maintains that healing, prosperity, and all the good gifts from God are procured at the cross. They are ours already

God wants us to be healthy, wealthy, and wise

Since many Christians do not meet the requirements it is necessary to explain that.

The explanation is since we are sure our doctrine is correct, and God is not a liar the problem lies squarely on the believer.

The problem is described in either not enough faith, or unbelief.

Faith is a positive ethereal force; unbelief is a negative ethereal force.

“God would heal you if you had more faith”

Proof text for this comes from the instances where Jesus rebuked his followers for their lack of faith or when he commends someone for their great faith.

This is problematic however in that in each case Jesus’ response was to heal or deliver. His response for those with little faith and those with great faith was the same.

“Jesus could not do many things in His home town because of their unbelief”

This is presented as proof text that unbelief is so powerful that even Jesus could not overcome it.

I do not believe that scripture makes that case at all. All it really means is they didn’t believe in Him so they didn’t ask of Him They didn’t even consider Him to be more than the carpenter’s son. This is not any different then people now who don’t believe and don’t ask today.


The real message of the mustard seed is not that it takes “great faith” it is that it takes a little. Just enough to ask.


John O.

:amen:.

[robbymac]

This comes from a lack of understanding of the mystery of the Kingdom.

Oversimplified...

1. That the Kingdom of God is still in the future;
2. That the Kingdom of God has arrived in the present;
3. That the Kingdom of God is going to arrive at any minute, it is very near;
4. And that the Kingdom of God has been delayed.

All of it is true at the same time.

The Kingdom of God, the future world, the end of the age, has mysteriously, unexpectedly, miraculously invaded the present world in the person of Jesus Christ and in the Day of Pentecost. Two ages now exist simultaneously: the future age has already begun, but this age has not yet ended. And we therefore live in eschatological tension, which means we live in the "already" and the "not yet". We are already living in the powers of the Kingdom and yet we are not yet living in the coming of the Kingdom.

IOW, healing is in the atonement. Some of us will get healed in this lifetime; others in the next age.

And a miracle - be it healing or otherwise - is when the Kingdom touches (manifest, reveals, invades, etc.) our present world. And as this age comes to a close, we will get even more Kingdom manifestations (that's what revivals are) and in greater frequency....so we'll see and experience more healings and other miracles.

Just my 0.02.
Well said and AMEN!! :thumbsup:

[ANM29]

This comes from a lack of understanding of the mystery of the Kingdom.

Oversimplified...

1. That the Kingdom of God is still in the future;
2. That the Kingdom of God has arrived in the present;
3. That the Kingdom of God is going to arrive at any minute, it is very near;
4. And that the Kingdom of God has been delayed.

All of it is true at the same time.

The Kingdom of God, the future world, the end of the age, has mysteriously, unexpectedly, miraculously invaded the present world in the person of Jesus Christ and in the Day of Pentecost. Two ages now exist simultaneously: the future age has already begun, but this age has not yet ended. And we therefore live in eschatological tension, which means we live in the "already" and the "not yet". We are already living in the powers of the Kingdom and yet we are not yet living in the coming of the Kingdom.

IOW, healing is in the atonement. Some of us will get healed in this lifetime; others in the next age.

And a miracle - be it healing or otherwise - is when the Kingdom touches (manifest, reveals, invades, etc.) our present world. And as this age comes to a close, we will get even more Kingdom manifestations (that's what revivals are) and in greater frequency....so we'll see and experience more healings and other miracles.

Just my 0.02.

:amen:...

[heron]

A friend brought up recently that Jesus is the Author and Finisher of our faith.

Without His intervention and support, our faith might just be mustering, pretending, or denial. But the collaborative project is Him working with us to perfect our faith.

So if we feel helpless and weak in the face of God, He recognizes that as common, and wants to build our faith over time -- with exercises and successes and learning from failures.

Jesus' reaction to them not having enough faith might feel intimidating, but imagine when He has a miracle all set up to work well, and we say ...er, I'm not so sure about that. Which we do.

If we can ask freely for wisdom, and for all things, then we can surely ask for improved faith.

I took a japanese ceramic class years ago, and the emphasis was on the process, not on the product. The instructor often threw out his pots after a demonstration. Similarly, maybe the primary goal is not the comfort of living healed, but the finishing of our character and faith. (And healings in between build our faith.)


.

[Simon_Templar]

A friend brought up recently that Jesus is the Author and Finisher of our faith.

Without His intervention and support, our faith might just be mustering, pretending, or denial. But the collaborative project is Him working with us to perfect our faith.

So if we feel helpless and weak in the face of God, He recognizes that as common, and wants to build our faith over time -- with exercises and successes and learning from failures.

Jesus' reaction to them not having enough faith might feel intimidating, but imagine when He has a miracle all set up to work well, and we say ...er, I'm not so sure about that. Which we do.

If we can ask freely for wisdom, and for all things, then we can surely ask for improved faith.

I took a japanese ceramic class years ago, and the emphasis was on the process, not on the product. The instructor often threw out his pots after a demonstration. Similarly, maybe the primary goal is not the comfort of living healed, but the finishing of our character and faith. (And healings in between build our faith.)


.
a good point in here.

I don't entirely believe that the "journey is more important than the destination" in the over arching reality of God.

BUT, I believe that it is true often, very very often, in our perception of the world because of the fact that we often don't know the real destination, we don't know where we are really being taken... so we often put importance on the wrong thing, thinking it to be the destination.

Using the example of the ceramics class.. people make the mistake of thinking that the goal of the ceramics class is to make a pot.. but its not. The goal of the class is to gain skill in the art of ceramics. Making a pot is just a demonstration or an expression of that goal and as such, making any given pot is really unimportant.
The goal of the art itself, again is ultimately to express creativity and to pursue excellence, not to make pots.

Its kind of like looking at things from our perspective and then from God's perspective. From God's perspective the end is all important. He sees the end from the beginning and he gives us whatever journey will get us to the end he desires.
But from our perspective, we can't see the end, we don't know what the end is, and usually every time we try and figure out what the end is, we end up looking at the wrong goal. As a result, from our perspective the journey becomes the really important thing, because only by following blindly where God leads, can we get to his desired end. Very likely, only once we get there, will we understand what it even is.

[heron]

Thanks for expounding.

I cringed when I first read "God wants us to be healthy, wealthy, and wise," because even though I believe that to be true, He also wants others to be healthy, wealthy, and wise -- which can involve us humbling ourselves and stepping out of the limelight at times. Or training others in how to get there. Or giving something up to make sure others have enough.

It wasn't a bad thing to say, so I'm sorry to make it look that way. It's just that we're all racing to have beautiful pots and we might trample others in the process.