"On The Jews And Their Lies" By Martin Luther

[LordsRanger]

This work by him is most interesting, yet of course also tarnishing and seems quite disconcerting. Although, he was angry and wrote this towards his death and lived in a time where sour words were a normal way of life. Many sought it as the blueprint for Kristallnacht. I see this work as done out of spite, and of course he is a sinner too!

What do you think?

Note: edited for grammar

[Lotar]

I think in the light of the times and the context in which it was written, it is not nearly as bad as people make it out to be.

I must admit that when I read it, I did not notice any foul language...

[Rechtgläubig]

I agree with Lotar. This work has always been pulled out of it's context and used by people in ways that it just wasn't intended to be used. Here is an interesting quote by Mark Albrecht...

Also, the historical setting must be considered. Luther was not the first to speak unkindly about the Jews. The Romans disliked them, the Christians slaughtered thousands of them during the Crusades. In 1290 England expelled them, thirty years later France did likewise, in 1492 they were murdered and expelled from Spain. Bainton speaks to this situation, "If similar tracts did not appear in England, France, and Spain in Luther's day, it was because the Jews had already been completely expelled from these countries."30 Luther's actions are almost mild in comparison.

The rest of his writings can be found here... http://www.wls.wels.net/library/Essays/Authors/A/AlbrechtMartin/AlbrechtMartin.htm

It is an examination of Luther's relation with the Jews and explains some of the historical behind the scenes so to speak.

God Bless and welcome LordsRanger. :wave:

[Orthodox Andrew]

The only foul language I can recall from the book was the word fart.:sorry:

[Rechtgläubig]

The only foul language I can recall from the book was the word fart.:sorry:
"HUH HUH HUH HE SAID... HUH HUH... HE SAID... HUH"
"YEAH! HEH HEH HEE HEE HEH! ANDREAS, YOU SHOULD HAVE HEARD WHAT YOU JUST SAID HEH HEH"
"HUH HUH YEAH! HUH HUH. LUTHER IS COOL! HUH HUH!"

http://www.ccs.neu.edu/home/image/images/small-bnb.gif

:D

[Orthodox Andrew]

"HUH HUH HUH HE SAID... HUH HUH... HE SAID... HUH"
"YEAH! HEH HEH HEE HEE HEH! ANDREAS, YOU SHOULD HAVE HEARD WHAT YOU JUST SAID HEH HEH"
"HUH HUH YEAH! HUH HUH. LUTHER IS COOL! HUH HUH!"

http://www.ccs.neu.edu/home/image/images/small-bnb.gif

:D

LOL :D

[JeffreyLloyd]

I think in the light of the times and the context in which it was written, it is not nearly as bad as people make it out to be.

I must admit that when I read it, I did not notice any foul language...

The book is horrible and I can't see how anyone could defend it. Here are some quotes from the text:

"Such a desperate, thoroughly evil, poisonous and devilish lot are these Jews, who for these fourteen hundred years have been and still are our plague, our pestilence, and our misfortune."

"Therefore the blind Jews are truly stupid fools . . ."

"Now just behold these miserable, blind, and senseless people. "

". . . their blindness and arrogance are as solid as an iron mountain. "

"If I had to refute all the other articles of the Jewish faith, I should be obliged to write against them as much and for as long a time as they have used for inventing their lies -- that is, longer than two thousand years."

[Phoebe]

Luther wasn't exactly politically correct, was he?

[Lotar]

The book is horrible and I can't see how anyone could defend it. Here are some quotes from the text:

"Such a desperate, thoroughly evil, poisonous and devilish lot are these Jews, who for these fourteen hundred years have been and still are our plague, our pestilence, and our misfortune."

"Therefore the blind Jews are truly stupid fools . . ."

"Now just behold these miserable, blind, and senseless people. "

". . . their blindness and arrogance are as solid as an iron mountain. "

"If I had to refute all the other articles of the Jewish faith, I should be obliged to write against them as much and for as long a time as they have used for inventing their lies -- that is, longer than two thousand years."
As with everything Luther wrote, he must be read in context, Luther used exageration quite often as a litterary tool in his works. If the word Jew in this book were replaced with Mohammedan nobody would bat an eye.

Perhaps Luther went overboard from time to time, but you must also look at the times in which he lived. Luther was often critisized for being to nice to the Jews. Abe Lincon was a bigot by today's standard, but we don't judge him as so because of the context of the times, as such, I do not try to judge Martin Luther by today's standards either.

[ByzantineDixie]

I was just having a conversation about him last night with my Pastor. I run hot and cold with Luther. He did not have much tact but as my pastor pointed out, in his time and situation, he was not in a position to always be effective AND tactful. Often the "way" he said things were more offensive than what he actually said.

I don't like what Luther said about the Jews...period. But he was a product of his time and he was suffering from physical ailments when he wrote these things.

What I think is important for both Lutherans and non-Lutherans alike to understand is that you do not have to buy-in to the whole person, hook, line an sinker, to be a Lutheran. Luther was a fallible, sinful man--as we all are. Not everything he did or said was noteworthy and must be embraced by the practicing Lutheran. God used Luther to correct some terrible wrongs in His church. And for this, we are grateful and praise God.

Peace

Rose

[JeffreyLloyd]

As with everything Luther wrote, he must be read in context, Luther used exageration quite often as a litterary tool in his works. If the word Jew in this book were replaced with Mohammedan nobody would bat an eye.

Perhaps Luther went overboard from time to time, but you must also look at the times in which he lived. Luther was often critisized for being to nice to the Jews. Abe Lincon was a bigot by today's standard, but we don't judge him as so because of the context of the times, as such, I do not try to judge Martin Luther by today's standards either.

Can you give me any quotes that President Lincoln said that comes close to what Luther wrote?

[ChiRho]

"I will say, then, that I am not, nor ever have been, in favor of bringing about in any way the social and political equality of the white and black races - that I am not, nor ever have been in favor of making voters or jurors of Negroes, nor of qualifying them to hold office, nor to inter-marry with white people; and I will say in addition to this that there is a physical difference between the white and black races which I believe will forever forbid the two races living together on terms of social and political equality."

"But what shall we do with the negroes after they are free? I can hardly believe that the South and the North can live in peace, unless we can get rid of the negroes. ...You have been a staunch friend of the [Black] race from the time you first advised me to enlist them at New Orleans. You have had a good deal of experience in moving bodies of men by water, - your movement up the James was a magnificent one. Now, we shall have use for our very large navy; what, then, are our difficulties in sending all the blacks away? ...I fear a race war.... I wish you would carefully examine the question and give me your views upon it and go into the figures, as you did before in some degree, so as to show whether the negroes can be exported."

-Abraham Lincoln

[JeffreyLloyd]

Can you give me a source?

I have a quote from President Lincolin too:

And by virtue of the power, and for the purpose aforesaid, I do order and declare that all persons held as slaves within said designated States, and parts of States, are, and henceforward shall be free; and that the Executive government of the United States, including the military and naval authorities thereof, will recognize and maintain the freedom of said persons.

And I hereby enjoin upon the people so declared to be free to abstain from all violence, unless in necessary self-defence; and I recommend to them that, in all cases when allowed, they labor faithfully for reasonable wages.

And I further declare and make known, that such persons of suitable condition, will be received into the armed service of the United States to garrison forts, positions, stations, and other places, and to man vessels of all sorts in said service.

And upon this act, sincerely believed to be an act of justice, warranted by the Constitution, upon military necessity, I invoke the considerate judgment of mankind, and the gracious favor of Almighty God.

In witness whereof, I have hereunto set my hand and caused the seal of the United States to be affixed.


It's from a little unknow document called the Emancipation Proclamation.

Oh, I have another one too:


Four score and seven years ago our fathers brought forth on this continent a new nation, conceived in liberty and dedicated to the proposition that all men are created equal.

Now we are engaged in a great civil war, testing whether that nation or any nation so conceived and so dedicated can long endure. We are met on a great battlefield of that war. We have come to dedicate a portion of that field as a final resting-place for those who here gave their lives that that nation might live. It is altogether fitting and proper that we should do this. But in a larger sense, we cannot dedicate, we cannot consecrate, we cannot hallow this ground.

The brave men, living and dead who struggled here have consecrated it far above our poor power to add or detract. The world will little note nor long remember what we say here, but it can never forget what they did here. It is for us the living rather to be dedicated here to the unfinished work which they who fought here have thus far so nobly advanced.

It is rather for us to be here dedicated to the great task remaining before us--that from these honored dead we take increased devotion to that cause for which they gave the last full measure of devotion--that we here highly resolve that these dead shall not have died in vain, that this nation under God shall have a new birth of freedom, and that government of the people, by the people, for the people shall not perish from the earth.

[ChiRho]

Emancipation Proclamation, whats that?

[Lotar]

Can you give me a source?

I have a quote from President Lincolin too:



It's from a little unknow document called the Emancipation Proclamation.

Oh, I have another one too:
:D

Yes, I am fully aware of his little speaches. He also thought that blacks were inferior and would be incapable of coexisting with whites. It was his plan to have them move to Liberia.

I will seach down later, but Luther was now as an advocate against the popular discrimination of Jews in his time, like them being able to participate in the open market, etc., which he got a lot of flak from. If you read Jews and Their Lies in context and you are familiar with Luther's writing style, you will find that it is not really an anti-semetic work, but a disputation against Judaism.

[JeffreyLloyd]

... If you read Jews and Their Lies in context and you are familiar with Luther's writing style, you will find that it is not really an anti-semetic work, but a disputation against Judaism.

I have read all of Jews and Their Lies and it's very clear to me at least the point Luther is trying to make. I have not read much else of his works, save his 95 thesis. I find it hard to believe this is taken out of context:

"Such a desperate, thoroughly evil, poisonous and devilish lot are these Jews, who for these fourteen hundred years have been and still are our plague, our pestilence, and our misfortune."

[Lexluther]

As with everything Luther wrote, he must be read in context, Luther used exageration quite often as a litterary tool in his works. If the word Jew in this book were replaced with Mohammedan nobody would bat an eye.
I sure as heck would. Religious discrimination is inexcusable in any form, but especially out of the mouths of Christians.

But just so you don't get too mad at me, I'll defend your other point.

Emancipation ProclomationWhich freed all the slaves in the SOUTH, not the North. You know, the South that was in rebellion at the time? I like Lincoln (and he's a distant relative of mine) but he was a hypocrite. Even setting aside the matter of slavery, he called himself a pacifist while okaying "total war" against his own nation. I think it is a mistake to put any person on a pedestal, be it Lincoln or Luther. "On the Jews and their Lies" is garbage that does not deserve to be rationalized. The quicker we renounce it and move on, the better off we'll be.

[Lotar]

I have read all of Jews and Their Lies and it's very clear to me at least the point Luther is trying to make. I have not read much else of his works, save his 95 thesis. I find it hard to believe this is taken out of context:

"Such a desperate, thoroughly evil, poisonous and devilish lot are these Jews, who for these fourteen hundred years have been and still are our plague, our pestilence, and our misfortune."
Then you are truly missing out, my friend, and that is most likely your problem, you are unfamiliar with his work. It is the same reason people come to believe Luther thought that adultery and sin is good, and that murderers and liers are saved.

This book was written in response to a Jewish paper written against Christianity. The quote you present is specifically refering to Jews speaking against Christianity, just as everywhere else in this book, when he speaks of their lies, etc., he is refering to their blasphemous mocking of Christ, speaking against Christianity, and conversion of Christians, which Luther rightly sees as a supreme evil.

[JeffreyLloyd]

... "On the Jews and their Lies" is garbage that does not deserve to be rationalized. The quicker we renounce it and move on, the better off we'll be.

:amen:

Luther does have other great works, some of my favorite quotes on the Blessed Mother are Luthers:

"Is Christ only to be adored? Or is the holy Mother of God rather not to be honoured? This is the woman who crushed the Serpent's head. Hear us. For your Son denies you nothing."

"There can be no doubt that the Virgin Mary is in heaven. How it happened we do not know. And since the Holy Spirit has told us nothing about it, we can make of it no article of faith . . . It is enough to know that she lives in Christ." - August 15, 1522 on the Feast of the Assumption

"The veneration of Mary is inscribed in the very depths of the human heart." (Sermon, September 1, 1522).

"[She is the] highest woman and the noblest gem in Christianity after Christ . . . She is nobility, wisdom, and holiness personified. We can never honor her enough. Still honor and praise must be given to her in such a way as to injure neither Christ nor the Scriptures." (Sermon, Christmas, 1531).

"No woman is like you. You are more than Eve or Sarah, blessed above all nobility, wisdom, and sanctity." (Sermon, Feast of the Visitation, 1537).

"One should honor Mary as she herself wished and as she expressed it in the Magnificat. She praised God for his deeds. How then can we praise her? The true honor of Mary is the honor of God, the praise of God's grace . . . Mary is nothing for the sake of herself, but for the sake of Christ . . . Mary does not wish that we come to her, but through her to God." (Explanation of the Magnificat, 1521).

"It is a sweet and pious belief that the infusion of Mary's soul was effected without original sin; so that in the very infusion of her soul she was also purified from original sin and adorned with God's gifts, receiving a pure soul infused by God; thus from the first moment she began to live she was free from all sin" (Sermon: "On the Day of the Conception of the Mother of God," 1527).

"She is full of grace, proclaimed to be entirely without sin- something exceedingly great. For God's grace fills her with everything good and makes her devoid of all evil." (Personal {"Little"} Prayer Book, 1522).

"Christ, our Savior, was the real and natural fruit of Mary's virginal womb . . . This was without the cooperation of a man, and she remained a virgin after that." {Luther's Works, eds. Jaroslav Pelikan (vols. 1-30)

"Christ . . . was the only Son of Mary, and the Virgin Mary bore no children besides Him . . . I am inclined to agree with those who declare that 'brothers' really mean 'cousins' here, for Holy Writ and the Jews always call cousins brothers." {Pelikan, ibid., v.22:214-15 / Sermons on John, chaps. 1-4 (1539)

"A new lie about me is being circulated. I am supposed to have preached and written that Mary, the mother of God, was not a virgin either before or after the birth of Christ . . . {Pelikan, ibid.,v.45:199 / That Jesus Christ was Born a Jew (1523) }

"When Matthew [1:25] says that Joseph did not know Mary carnally until she had brought forth her son, it does not follow that he knew her subsequently; on the contrary, it means that he never did know her . . . This babble . . . is without justification . . . he has neither noticed nor paid any attention to either Scripture or the common idiom." {Pelikan, ibid.,v.45:206,212-3 / That Jesus Christ was Born a Jew (1523) }

". . . she is full of grace, proclaimed to be entirely without sin. . . . God's grace fills her with everything good and makes her devoid of all evil. . . . God is with her, meaning that all she did or left undone is divine and the action of God in her. Moreover, God guarded and protected her from all that might be hurtful to her." - Luther's Works, American edition, vol. 43, p. 40 , ed. H. Lehmann, Fortress, 1968

". . . she is rightly called not only the mother of the man, but also the Mother of God. . . . it is certain that Mary is the Mother of the real and true God." Ref: Sermon on John 14. 16: Luther's Works (St. Louis, ed. Jaroslav, Pelican, Concordia. vol. 24. p. 107)

[Lotar]

I sure as heck would. Religious discrimination is inexcusable in any form, but especially out of the mouths of Christians.

But just so you don't get too mad at me, I'll defend your other point.

You most likely would not, as in context it only appears discrimatory when looked at through the eyes of the sensitive (and perhaps at times hyper-sensitive) post-holocaust Christian world.

[JeffreyLloyd]

...This book was written in response to a Jewish paper written against Christianity. The quote you present is specifically refering to Jews speaking against Christianity, just as everywhere else in this book, when he speaks of their lies, etc., he is refering to their blasphemous mocking of Christ, speaking against Christianity, and conversion of Christians, which Luther rightly sees as a supreme evil.

So you would say an "amen" to everything Luther wrote in the book, even in the context of what you said?

Also, do you know the name of the jewish paper written against Christianity?

[Lotar]

So you would say an "amen" to everything Luther wrote in the book, even in the context of what you said?
No, I'm not Southern Baptist. :P

I think Luther at times went to far in this book, I do not deny that, but, it is taken by many to mean things that it was not intended to mean. I would say that my objections to it is more with how it was later used and exploited than with the actual content. I could not in good conscience condemn Luther because the Nazis later used parts of it as propaganda, something he would never had imagined.


Also, do you know the name of the jewish paper written against Christianity?

No, I do not. As far as I know, it was lost and no longer exists.

[Moros]

Also, do you know the name of the jewish paper written against Christianity?

The Talmud.

[JeffreyLloyd]

The Talmud.

Is that supposed to be a joke?

[Lotar]

Is that supposed to be a joke?
"Jesus was a ******* born of adultery." (Yebamoth 49b, p.324).
"Mary was a whore: Jesus (Balaam) was an evil man." (Sanhedrin 106a &b, p.725).
"Jesus was a magician and a fool. Mary was an adulteress". (Shabbath 104b, p.504).

"Christians are allied with Hell, and Christianity is worse than incest". (Abodah Zarah 17a, p.85).
"WHEN MESSIAH COMES HE WILL DESTROY THE CHRISTIANS". (Sanhedrin 99a,p.668).
"Those who read the Gospels are doomed to Hell". (Sanhedrin 90a, 100b, pp.601-602, 680).

[Lotar]

"Miriam the hairdresser," had sex with many men. Shabbath 104b

She who was the descendant of princes and governors played the harlot with carpenters. Sanhedrin 106a

Hast thou heard how old Balaam (Jesus) was?--He replied: It is not actually stated but since it is written, Bloody and deceitful men shall not live out half their days it follows that he was thirty-three or thirty-four years old. Sanhedrin 106

Yeshu the Nazarene was executed because he practiced sorcery. Sanhedrin 43a

On the eve of the Passover, Yeshu was hanged...Do you suppose that he was one for whom a defense could be made? Was he not a Mesith (enticer)? Sanhedrin 43a

Christians ("minim") and others who reject the Talmud will go to hell and be punished there for all generations. Rosh Hashanah 17a

Jews must destroy the books of the Christians. Shabbath 116a (p. 569).

[Lexluther]

You most likely would not, as in context it only appears discrimatory when looked at through the eyes of the sensitive (and perhaps at times hyper-sensitive) post-holocaust Christian world.
Yes, I would. You're alleging that I only care about discrimination if it's against someone who's had genocide leveled against them? Or what? Martin Luther wrote the following in "Jews and their Lies":

"I shall give you my sincere advice: First, to set fire to their synagogues or schools and to bury and cover with dirt whatever will not burn, so that no man will ever again see a stone or cinder of them. ... Second, I advise that their houses also be razed and destroyed. For they pursue in them the same aims as in their synagogues. Instead they might be lodged under a roof or in a barn, like the gypsies. ... Third, I advise that all their prayer books and Talmudic writings, in which such idolatry, lies, cursing, and blasphemy are taught, be taken from them. Fourth, I advise that their rabbis be forbidden to teach henceforth on pain of loss of life and limb. .. Fifth, I advise that safe-conduct on the highways be abolished completely for the Jews. ... Sixth, I advise that usury be prohibited to them, and that all cash and treasure of silver and gold be taken from them and put aside for safekeeping. ... Seventh, I recommend putting a flail, an ax, a hoe, a spade, a distaff, or a spindle into the hands of young, strong Jews and Jewesses and letting them earn their bread in the sweat of their brow, as was imposed on the children of Adam."No. No, Lotar, I would never condone or even try to rationlize a statement like that. Not if it were set against a satanic cult, much less Judaism or Mohammadans.

[Lotar]

Yes, I would. You're alleging that I only care about discrimination if it's against someone who's had genocide leveled against them? Or what? Martin Luther wrote the following in "Jews and their Lies":

"I shall give you my sincere advice: First, to set fire to their synagogues or schools and to bury and cover with dirt whatever will not burn, so that no man will ever again see a stone or cinder of them. ... Second, I advise that their houses also be razed and destroyed. For they pursue in them the same aims as in their synagogues. Instead they might be lodged under a roof or in a barn, like the gypsies. ... Third, I advise that all their prayer books and Talmudic writings, in which such idolatry, lies, cursing, and blasphemy are taught, be taken from them. Fourth, I advise that their rabbis be forbidden to teach henceforth on pain of loss of life and limb. .. Fifth, I advise that safe-conduct on the highways be abolished completely for the Jews. ... Sixth, I advise that usury be prohibited to them, and that all cash and treasure of silver and gold be taken from them and put aside for safekeeping. ... Seventh, I recommend putting a flail, an ax, a hoe, a spade, a distaff, or a spindle into the hands of young, strong Jews and Jewesses and letting them earn their bread in the sweat of their brow, as was imposed on the children of Adam."No. No, Lotar, I would never condone or even try to rationlize a statement like that. Not if it were set against a satanic cult, much less Judaism or Mohammadans.
Then you a better than most. This is one point where I do agree that Luther went too far, but if you continue, you will see what seperates him from the popular sentiment of the day; that he told them to not harm the Jews or curse them.

[JeffreyLloyd]

"Jesus was a ******* born of adultery." (Yebamoth 49b, p.324).
"Mary was a whore: Jesus (Balaam) was an evil man." (Sanhedrin 106a &b, p.725).
"Jesus was a magician and a fool. Mary was an adulteress". (Shabbath 104b, p.504).

"Christians are allied with Hell, and Christianity is worse than incest". (Abodah Zarah 17a, p.85).
"WHEN MESSIAH COMES HE WILL DESTROY THE CHRISTIANS". (Sanhedrin 99a,p.668).
"Those who read the Gospels are doomed to Hell". (Sanhedrin 90a, 100b, pp.601-602, 680).

Those are really from the Talmud? wow :eek:

[Lotar]

Those are really from the Talmud? wow :eek:
It makes his reaction, and conclusion that all copies should be siezed and burned a little more understandable, doesn't it? ;)

That's also why King Phillip had all copies siezed and burned before the third crusade.

[JeffreyLloyd]

It makes his reaction, and conclusion that all copies should be siezed and burned a little more understandable, doesn't it? ;)

I'll give you the context makes a little more sense... :) however his language is still a bit strong.

[Lotar]

I'll give you the context makes a little more sense... :) however his language is still a bit strong.
Agreed.

[Rechtgläubig]

Wow this thread really took off, aye?


I'll give you the context makes a little more sense... http://christianforums.com/images/smilies/smile.gif however his language is still a bit strong.
I agree with you Jeffrey, his language was very harsh. Had I been in his shoes I don't know what would have come out of my pen. Hopefully I could have ended it like he did...




"O God, heavenly father,

relent and let your wrath over them be sufficient and come to an end, for the sake of your dear Son." (Luther, On the Jews and their Lies)

[LordsRanger]

As with everything Luther wrote, he must be read in context, Luther used exageration quite often as a litterary tool in his works. If the word Jew in this book were replaced with Mohammedan nobody would bat an eye.

Perhaps Luther went overboard from time to time, but you must also look at the times in which he lived. Luther was often critisized for being to nice to the Jews. Abe Lincon was a bigot by today's standard, but we don't judge him as so because of the context of the times, as such, I do not try to judge Martin Luther by today's standards either.
I don't disagree. He did like the Jews for quite a long time, but when they would not convert, he turned sore on them.

[SPALATIN]

The book is horrible and I can't see how anyone could defend it. Here are some quotes from the text:

"Such a desperate, thoroughly evil, poisonous and devilish lot are these Jews, who for these fourteen hundred years have been and still are our plague, our pestilence, and our misfortune."

"Therefore the blind Jews are truly stupid fools . . ."

"Now just behold these miserable, blind, and senseless people. "

". . . their blindness and arrogance are as solid as an iron mountain. "

"If I had to refute all the other articles of the Jewish faith, I should be obliged to write against them as much and for as long a time as they have used for inventing their lies -- that is, longer than two thousand years."
Well for one thing the Luther felt that the Jews had the benefit of the Gospel now written in the language they spoke and yet they still wouldn't come to faith therefore he had no time for them and felt they should be put in their own little area of land. I don't think that he hated them but he certainly had no time for them in context of those who would hear the word and come to faith.

He certainly did not wish for them to die and ask the Princes to have them killed as Hitler did.

That is how I defend it.