Orthodoxy vs Protestant ethics and the Spirit of Capitalism

[Mytheodos]

Here's a great article on the source of Capitalism..



Capitalism as the offspring of Western Metaphysics
By the Rev. Metropolitan of Nafpaktos and Saint Vlasios, fr. Hierotheos Vlachos



Excerpt from the book: «Born and raised as Romans» pages 123-184


Introduction
The theological differentiation of the West from the East created enormous problems in the Western sphere and more specifically to the people who live there. This theological aberration, this heretical position, was not confined to a theoretical and dogmatic level only; it became a way of life. It would not be frivolous for one to assert that all the strange events taking place in the West, or at least the majority of them, are attributed to the anti-Roman way of life.
It is within this framework that Capitalism should be interpreted; i.e., that Capitalism is the offspring of Western metaphysics, of the theology of the West, which estranged itself from the theology of the Fathers and attached itself to the philosophical theories of “ontology” and “metaphysics”. Besides, this is not irrelevant to the fact that all modern philosophical trends and schools were created in the West.
There are two basic interpretations for the birth of Capitalism. One claims that Capitalism is the fruit of Papism with its feudalist mentality, and the other claims that it is the fruit and the offspring of Protestantism with the particular morality that it has developed.
Beyond the existence of these theories and the effort made to find a suitable answer, the fact remains that Capitalism is the offspring of Western metaphysics, as experienced by both Papism and Protestantism. A detailed and careful study can prove that both of these Christian confessions (Papism – Protestantism) have been influenced on both a theoretical as well as a theological level, by the theories of the blessed Augustine; mainly from his views on an “predestination”. Indeed, we know that the Franks, in their attempt to create their own theology to confront the theology of the Romans, used the views of the blessed Augustine. Unfortunately, the Protestants, who distanced themselves from the ranks of Papism, were not able to disengage themselves from the structures of Augustine’s theological thought, since rationalism is at the core of their theology.
Consequently, the theology of Papism and that of Protestantism both have in reality the same point of reference and perspective. An example will show this more clearly.
An extensive discussion took place in the West over the difference between analogia entis (analogy of being) and analogia fidei (analogy of faith). The word “analogy” implies a similarity or a correspondence in relations. In essence, therefore, “analogy” is a method of theological thinking; that is to say, it is a gnosiological method for Man to approach God.
Papist theology is influenced and expressed by analogia entis, since, according to this theory the method for attaining knowledge of God is linked to the study of nature. This viewpoint is not irrelevant to the ontology of metaphysics, according to which the world that we know is linked to the realm of reality, which is the realm of ideas, since that is where it originated from.
Furthermore, the theology of Protestantism is expressed mainly by analogia fidei, since it regards that relations with God are linked to faith. Thus, according to Protestantism the knowledge of God is achieved through Man’s rebirth, which is realised through theoretical faith. Karl Barth’s dialectic theology, which is expressed by [I]analogia fidei, strongly criticised the theology of Papism, which is based on analogia entis[ii] (http://www.oodegr.com/oode/koinwnia/kapitalismos1.htm#_edn2).
Orthodoxy, which is based on the theosis of the Prophets, Apostles and Saints, is expressed through experiences of revelation and not through the gnosiological methods of Papism and Protestantism. According to the Holy Fathers of the Church, no theory of cogitative analogy can apply, since there is no resemblance between created and uncreated. This is why Orthodox theologians proclaim that in the dialogue with the Lutherans, and by extension with all Christian confessions and religious convictions, it would be both helpful and useful to discuss and eventually come to an agreement on the dangers for theology and the method for approaching God, which analogia entis as well as analogia fidei both entail [iii] (http://www.oodegr.com/oode/koinwnia/kapitalismos1.htm#_edn3).
Capitalism, as we shall see further on in our analysis, has been profoundly influenced by the metaphysics that prevailed in the Western world, since it stands out precisely for its metaphysical perspective. But even Socialism–Marxism, which was presented as anti-metaphysical, is in reality the offspring of Western metaphysics, since it upholds the existence of relentless laws that govern both History and the world, and which naturally govern all social phenomena and societal developments.
Beyond their theoretical similarities, both Capitalism and Marxism do not differ from each other in their sociological content. This can be seen from the fact that the basis of both is capital; the difference being that in the Capitalist system, the capital belongs to the few, while in the Marxist system it belongs to the State. In both theories, Man is dependent on the particular laws that determine the social setting.
The fact that there are two theories for the birth of Capitalism is of minor importance. What is certain and unquestionable is that Capitalism is the offspring of metaphysics as experienced in the West. A basic representative of the theory that Capitalism is closely connected to Protestant morality is the famous sociologist Max Weber. His work “The Protestant Ethic and the Spirit of Capitalism” is now considered a classic.

Here's the link to the rest of this essay...

http://www.oodegr.com/english/koinwnia/politika/kapitalismos1.htm#5.

[buzuxi02]

I have to take exception to the above. It makes no sense.
For starters what are the "strange events taking place in the west"???? I'm assuming some sort of debacle is occuring in western lands which the balkans and eastern europe are immuned to. The article is associating marxism with capitalism yet marxism took root in traditional Orthodox countries not the other way around so this cant be the strange events spoken of. Also there has been a mass exodus of Orthodox people especially from Greece and now from the former Soviet lands, precisely to come to capitalist countries to make a better life.

I dont want to judge the authors because i do not have their holiness, but they show a lack of knowledge on byzantine history. It was the Byzantine Empire itself which invented capitalism. While in the west, a christian was forbidden from being a banker since interest on loans were considered sinful (thus only jews were bankers under papism), the east not only allowed them ,Justinian had an 8% cap on loans and a 12 % cap in maritime loans since they were riskier. Under the byzantine empire there was sales tax and store rentals. There were even insurance & credit services.
The byzantine coin the solidus (aka bezant) was the standard international currency for about 700 years making it historys most stable currency. This was all going on while the west still used "bartering" thru the dark ages.

[Knowledge3]

Orthodoxy is automatically opposed to the Western world?

[Knowledge3]

Orthodoxy vs everything?

[EricTheRed]

I am sick of capitalism getting marked as evil. You can be just as generous has you want in it.

[tekiahteruah]

I think there is some wisdom in this, although of course it is put pretty simplistically. Marxism and capitalism both do come out of some similar trends in modern western thought.

[Thekla]

While in the west, a christian was forbidden from being a banker since interest on loans were considered sinful (thus only jews were bankers under papism), the east not only allowed them ,Justinian had an 8% cap on loans and a 12 % cap in maritime loans since they were riskier. Under the byzantine empire there was sales tax and store rentals. There were even insurance & credit services.
The byzantine coin the solidus (aka bezant) was the standard international currency for about 700 years making it historys most stable currency. This was all going on while the west still used "bartering" thru the dark ages.

I haven't finished reading the piece,

but your examples are interesting ; what was the purpose of Justinian's interest rate cap, taxes, etc. ? Another words, the form may look similar, but the purpose may betray the dissimilarity. (And the more rigid western/magisterial system may betray and lead to a different outcome; there are many kinds of capitalism.)

[buzuxi02]

I haven't finished reading the piece,

but your examples are interesting ; what was the purpose of Justinian's interest rate cap, taxes, etc. ? Another words, the form may look similar, but the purpose may betray the dissimilarity. (And the more rigid western/magisterial system may betray and lead to a different outcome; there are many kinds of capitalism.)
I'm not a scholar on the economics of the byzantine empire but the Dec 1983 issue of National Geographic touched up on these issues. It shows that the emperor himself was one of the biggest merchants in the empire. After sneaking silk worms into the empire, the emperors created an entire silk industry among other things.
Your right in that theres differing kinds of capitalism. But i would like to know what alternative economic system does Metr. Hierotheos Vlahos have in mind? Was there some kind of Orthodoxy economic system we are not familiar with and is superior? Is the hindu caste system superior to capitalism since its not fruits of the west?

For me capitalism is the best system we have. Using the same faulty thought process as Metropolitan Hierotheos, i can demonstrate that capitalism is the most Orthodox system. Its called climbing the economic ladder thru intelligience and hard work. I can conclude that this is the economic equivalent to the ladder of divine ascent. Socialism on the other hand is basically subsidizing the inferior masses, using the same concept as the Metropolitan's article i can conclude socialism is the fruits of the papal innovation of the merits of the saints, where an elite few (saints) subsidize the masses (those purgatory bound) from remaining there through their abundant treasuries.

[Philothei]

just quick post.... Byzantium shares no .... comparison to capitalism.... none so ever yes it was secular but also greatly philanthropically based..... ha we wish to even compare any type of modern democratic.... capitalistic nation to Byzantium... which it was autocracy..... and with a double headed eagle ...sorry bad bad analogy....here....

Philothei

[Philothei]

Its called climbing the economic ladder thru intelligience and hard work.


No that is called Max Weber's work ethic and the beginning of Individualism... the upper mobility thingy was not ...in the vocubulary of the Byzantines.... pure western protestant work ethic... Any student of sociology would tell you that....


The Protestant Ethic and the Spirit of Capitalism

From Wikipedia, the free encyclopedia


Jump to: navigation (http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/The_Protestant_Ethic_and_the_Spirit_of_Capitalism#column-one), search (http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/The_Protestant_Ethic_and_the_Spirit_of_Capitalism#searchInput)
The Protestant Ethic and the Spirit of Capitalism is a book (http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Book) written by Max Weber (http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Max_Weber), a German (http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Germany) economist (http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Economist) and sociologist (http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Sociologist) in 1904 (http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/1904) and 1905 (http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/1905) that began as a series of essays (http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Essay). The original edition was in German and was entitled: Die protestantische Ethik und der 'Geist' des Kapitalismus. An English translation was made in 1930 (http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/1930) by Talcott Parsons (http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Talcott_Parsons), and several editions have been released.
Weber wrote that capitalism (http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Capitalism) evolved when the Protestant (http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Protestant) (particularly Calvinist (http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Calvinism)) ethic (http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Ethic) influenced large numbers of people to engage in work in the secular world, developing their own enterprises (http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Organization) and engaging in trade (http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Trade) and the accumulation of wealth (http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Wealth) for investment. In other words, the Protestant ethic was a force behind an unplanned and uncoordinated mass action (http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Mass_action_%28sociology%29) that led to the development of capitalism (http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Capitalism). This idea is also known as "the Weber thesis".


Philothei

[buzuxi02]

Its called climbing the economic ladder thru intelligience and hard work.


No that is called Max Weber's work ethic and the beginning of Individualism... the upper mobility thingy was not ...in the vocubulary of the Byzantines.... pure western protestant work ethic... Any student of sociology would tell you that....


The Protestant Ethic and the Spirit of Capitalism

From Wikipedia, the free encyclopedia


Jump to: navigation (http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/The_Protestant_Ethic_and_the_Spirit_of_Capitalism#column-one), search (http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/The_Protestant_Ethic_and_the_Spirit_of_Capitalism#searchInput)
The Protestant Ethic and the Spirit of Capitalism is a book (http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Book) written by Max Weber (http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Max_Weber), a German (http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Germany) economist (http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Economist) and sociologist (http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Sociologist) in 1904 (http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/1904) and 1905 (http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/1905) that began as a series of essays (http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Essay). The original edition was in German and was entitled: Die protestantische Ethik und der 'Geist' des Kapitalismus. An English translation was made in 1930 (http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/1930) by Talcott Parsons (http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Talcott_Parsons), and several editions have been released.
Weber wrote that capitalism (http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Capitalism) evolved when the Protestant (http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Protestant) (particularly Calvinist (http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Calvinism)) ethic (http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Ethic) influenced large numbers of people to engage in work in the secular world, developing their own enterprises (http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Organization) and engaging in trade (http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Trade) and the accumulation of wealth (http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Wealth) for investment. In other words, the Protestant ethic was a force behind an unplanned and uncoordinated mass action (http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Mass_action_%28sociology%29) that led to the development of capitalism (http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Capitalism). This idea is also known as "the Weber thesis".


Philothei
So are you agreeing with Weber? Which to me seems to say that protestants are ambitious while non-protestants are lazy due to their religious affiliation.

Weber's thesis may attempt to demonstrate protestant influence in a largely roman catholic western world. But capitalist ideals were more pronounced in Byzantium than in the papal states.

[Thekla]

So are you agreeing with Weber? Which to me seems to say that protestants are ambitious while non-protestants are lazy due to their religious affiliation.



side note - this was the view of the Irish, actually , around the time of the Potato Famine. It was thought that, also, they were too family focused and that the combination of this and their Catholicism was why they "lacked the ambition to get ahead". In order to rid them of the former fault, families were split into gender and age divided 'poor houses'.

[Vasileios]

The Eastern Roman Empire was nothing like capitalism.

Consider these laws:
As a shop owner, you were allowed to advertise your products as you wished, make any kind of offers that you wished etc, but you were allowed strictly one shop. In other words franchises and chain stores were forbidden.

Secondly, all similar shops were gathered in the same street, for the convenience of the buyer and for the immediate comparison of prices.

There was an officer of the Treasury who each day checked how many items of the same product (vegetables, fruits etc) passed through the city gates and enforced a top price.

Hardly capitalism.

There were many laws and practices that were far beyond their time. The first health care system was in byzantium (and it was free), the first hospitals were in byzantium. Doctors were required to work 9 months in a hospital on standard pay and then allowed to go for 3 months on private, to make a profit according to their reputation and where they could set the price.

Another first, for at least 300 years there was a law that required all bakeries to give at least one loaf of bread for free per day to every customer (paid by the treasury), to make sure that noone died from hunger.

[Philothei]

So are you agreeing with Weber? Which to me seems to say that protestants are ambitious while non-protestants are lazy due to their religious affiliation.

Weber's thesis may attempt to demonstrate protestant influence in a largely roman catholic western world. But capitalist ideals were more pronounced in Byzantium than in the papal states.
No I do not and furthermore I do not believe that religious orthodox people are lazy.... If that is what you imply.....lately there was a gallop and Greece was the most productive country in the EU despite everyone (greek and not greek) have been accusing the greeks of being less productive.... I will try to find that survey it was a couple of years ago and shocked all Europe.... Also consider this productivity does not equal capitalism....and people who are happy and religiously involved are less prone to be i.e. in drugs, crime etc. so....that sociologically speaking it 'keeps" people working making work a better place (since the threat each other christian) and in general aps the production process.

"Lazy monastistics" and Orthodox people is a thought of the Turkish Empire when they expected to "live off" the Greeks.... I do not need to see that in an Orthodox Forum... with all respect talking down to .... an Orthodox ethnos with so much universal accomplishments in abroad and in its own land is at least abusrd .....sorry to disagree....
Philothei

[Philothei]

The first health care system was in byzantium (and it was free), the first hospitals were in byzantium. Doctors were required to work 9 months in a hospital on standard pay and then allowed to go for 3 months on private, to make a profit according to their reputation and where they could set the price.
(I bold your post... because I believe everyone should notice what kind of a State was the Byz State...quite unique and very progressive for its time

one resource to read about it is the Byzantine Philantrhopy by Fr. Constantelos)

Yes, I did came across the same information when I did my paper on the Byzantine Hospital....


Also the monastic communities like Vassiliada were centers of medical treatment, and they served as the first pshychiatric units... There were also poor houses and the Gov't together with the Church were taking care of the poor regardless their religious affiliation.

There were also places for "batterned" women and women contemplating abortion...The children of such women were either given to adoption or the state would find ways for these women to work and take care of their children. etc.

Actually Byzantium IMO was more like a modern time socialistic society where the wealthy were giving more to the govn't, all had free medicine and the poor were taken care of.... Abuses existed and mostly the wealthy were complaining about the taxes... that the Byz state enforced on them...Byz state never exercised the feudic system or serfism...

Philothei

[buzuxi02]

No I do not and furthermore I do not believe that religious orthodox people are lazy.... If that is what you imply.....lately there was a gallop and Greece was the most productive country in the EU despite everyone (greek and not greek) have been accusing the greeks of being less productive.... I will try to find that survey it was a couple of years ago and shocked all Europe.... Also consider this productivity does not equal capitalism....and people who are happy and religiously involved are less prone to be i.e. in drugs, crime etc. so....that sociologically speaking it 'keeps" people working making work a better place (since the threat each other christian) and in general aps the production process.

"Lazy monastistics" and Orthodox people is a thought of the Turkish Empire when they expected to "live off" the Greeks.... I do not need to see that in an Orthodox Forum... with all respect talking down to .... an Orthodox ethnos with so much universal accomplishments in abroad and in its own land is at least abusrd .....sorry to disagree....
Philothei
I actually would like to see that survey. And yes many greeks i know would be surprised at that.

As far as posts #13 &15, to me this describes capitalism, atleast as how its practised in America. No hospital can deny medical care to anyone for lack of money, poor people have welfare, food stamps, section 8 housing. Theres baby safe havens, (forced) shelter for homeless people when the temperature falls below freezing, theres unemployment benefits if you lose your job. Once again this has more in common with what is described in Byzantium than in the era of feudalism.

The OP simply creates a strawman, one which partly puts the blame of "corporate greed" not only on Captialism but even down to St. Augustine! I have a problem with the theology of Blessed Augustine in his writings, but thats really stretching it.

[kamikat]

all political discussions should take place within the debate subforum.
This thread has been moved.

[Philothei]

I will try and find for you the survey... although it might be a few years back like 5-6 years ago... so it will take some time... I will pm it to you.

Philothei

[buzuxi02]

I will try and find for you the survey... although it might be a few years back like 5-6 years ago... so it will take some time... I will pm it to you.

Philothei
thanx!

[Philothei]

BTW Hospitals in USA can refuse you free medecine... or they bill you later... Byzantium was based on Christianity. America is not.... it is secular... big difference... maybe you are thinking Roman Empire.... rather... or the West they had the feudal system...etc.
You have to be "dead poor" to get free medicine in America and even then you have to pay for medicine... trust me I know "poor" retirees who have their children paying over 1,000 a month on medication..... do you see that in ALL European countries??? in Greece?? no they got co-pay but not to such astronomical amounts....

Also the Scandinavian countries do have social medecine.... they do not pay a penny for medicine or medical care... that was the system for most in Byzantium except if the wealthy wanted to pay more for "personalized" care... Please do not compare our system to that of Byzantium... The doctors in Byzantium were philantropists who cared about medicine .... and the people...not pure professionals. I am sure there were exceptions to this rule as in our society not all doctors are "professionals" but most care (do not think I blame any doctors here) ... it is just the WHOLE system was theocentric... and that makes it easier... for people to also ACT that way.


Philothei

[Thekla]

the definition of capitalism may be important before further discussion; we may all be defining it somewhat differently...

[buzuxi02]

the definition of capitalism may be important before further discussion; we may all be defining it somewhat differently...
I think your right. Many of the arguments are also futile, Byzantium was an empire whom all adhered to the same christian faith (which i still consider to have been capitalist). While modern day capitalist countries are all secular democracies. And of course theres over 500 years of seperation. The issue of free healthcare is not against capitalism, and this will be realized probably within 10 years in the United States since some sort of healthcare plan to cover all will be enacted. In fact it sounds like it will be a plan close to the Byzantine model, since getting the "same" equal medical treatment and outlawing the option to get your own personal medical treatment like in canada will never pass here. I never heard of capitalism being against health coverage or God for that matter.

[Philothei]

I am glad to see that you do agree that modern time capitalism has nothing to do with Byzantium that was not as "..secular" as modern time... And BTW when I think of captitalism I do include Western Europe...

The medical system in America will take eons to fix....the same as Europe's ...in some countries. I never said capitalism is against "health coverage" I just said that unless you are dead poor you do not get full coverage or wealthy.... You think that paying 16,000 a year for insurance is ok .... allow me to disagree.... You know that there are people out there who are uninsured because they are too sick .... and no insurance will cover them??? I have a very sick friend right now she has been uninsurable for a long time... also if you work at a restaurants... and her husband does he is a manager he has no insurance... because he cannot afford it...

If we solve this problem in this country I will be happy as a peach... Another friend of mind pays for her mom's and dad's medicine .... about 1,000 dollars a month !!!

Enough said though .... I am sorry for my rant I have been thinking about it lately... and I do know people who buy medicine from Canada because it is cheeper...

I do think that capitalism connected with the work ethic and individualism has created a corrupt system... not that it is all bad and all but ... because it gives freedom for free enterprise and no Government control ... it can lead to greed and antagonism. Buisness world always uses those "ethics" to succeed they teach that 101 in business school.... The motive being money, regardless the skopos( aim) is very dangerous as people without morals and thinking only of profits could lead not only countries but the whole world into despair...
Christ said that we have to choose who we want to serve the money (mamon) or God....

And if our choice is God then we have nothing to do with the "work ethic" and making money ....or stimulate the economy mottos.... IMO anyways... Now how you can combine the too.... again ask Max Weber.... that was his "philosophy" ...not Christ's.

I agree with the OP

God bless,
Philothei

[Thekla]

although it may not be "capitalism" per se, there is a view that equates ones' ability to achieve with 'social Darwinism'. This view equates income with personal (individual) worth.

[buzuxi02]

I am glad to see that you do agree that modern time capitalism has nothing to do with Byzantium that was not as "..secular" as modern time... And BTW when I think of captitalism I do include Western Europe...

The medical system in America will take eons to fix....the same as Europe's ...in some countries. I never said capitalism is against "health coverage" I just said that unless you are dead poor you do not get full coverage or wealthy.... You think that paying 16,000 a year for insurance is ok .... allow me to disagree.... You know that there are people out there who are uninsured because they are too sick .... and no insurance will cover them??? I have a very sick friend right now she has been uninsurable for a long time... also if you work at a restaurants... and her husband does he is a manager he has no insurance... because he cannot afford it...

If we solve this problem in this country I will be happy as a peach... Another friend of mind pays for her mom's and dad's medicine .... about 1,000 dollars a month !!!

Enough said though .... I am sorry for my rant I have been thinking about it lately... and I do know people who buy medicine from Canada because it is cheeper...

I do think that capitalism connected with the work ethic and individualism has created a corrupt system... not that it is all bad and all but ... because it gives freedom for free enterprise and no Government control ... it can lead to greed and antagonism. Buisness world always uses those "ethics" to succeed they teach that 101 in business school.... The motive being money, regardless the skopos( aim) is very dangerous as people without morals and thinking only of profits could lead not only countries but the whole world into despair...
Christ said that we have to choose who we want to serve the money (mamon) or God....

And if our choice is God then we have nothing to do with the "work ethic" and making money ....or stimulate the economy mottos.... IMO anyways... Now how you can combine the too.... again ask Max Weber.... that was his "philosophy" ...not Christ's.

I agree with the OP

God bless,
Philothei
i dont know about the costs of health insurance, since i'm one of those that dont have any. I really dont know what the big deal is. I believe it springs from people of European descent who believe there entitled to live forever. I know this sounds harsh but most of the world has no healthcare and have better things to worry about. Can ypu imagin how arrogant that poor people in third world countries must think of us? I remember when an australian relative visted me and she lamented how Australia now only allows one check-up per year. I'm thinking how many times a year do you want to go? Free medical should be for emergencies not for running to an emergency room over a pimple.

Byzantium didnt see a stigma on usury as the west did.
Both government and big business can be corrupt, government usually more. I believe in a market economy, in supply and demand not to subsidize a failing business with tariffs, or to hate a business because of lay-offs, keeping them on will simply end up making it go out of business. I may have went off on a tangent with this post.

[Thekla]

i dont know about the costs of health insurance, since i'm one of those that dont have any. I really dont know what the big deal is. I believe it springs from people of European descent who believe there entitled to live forever. I know this sounds harsh but most of the world has no healthcare and have better things to worry about. Can ypu imagin how arrogant that poor people in third world countries must think of us? I remember when an australian relative visted me and she lamented how Australia now only allows one check-up per year. I'm thinking how many times a year do you want to go? Free medical should be for emergencies not for running to an emergency room over a pimple.

Byzantium didnt see a stigma on usury as the west did.
Both government and big business can be corrupt, government usually more. I believe in a market economy, in supply and demand not to subsidize a failing business with tariffs, or to hate a business because of lay-offs, keeping them on will simply end up making it go out of business. I may have went off on a tangent with this post.
I'm not objective enough to respond to the health insurance issue; two members of my immediate family require ongoing medical care. Both would likely not be 'surviving' without it.

[buzuxi02]

I'm not objective enough to respond to the health insurance issue; two members of my immediate family require ongoing medical care. Both would likely not be 'surviving' without it.
Free medical for such cases are good. I believe it should be on a case by case basis. My greatgrandmother during the last few years of her life had serious health problems, she had nothing, so the government picked up the tab. On the other hand, my brother had an ex-girlfriend with great health insurance, she would drive herself to the emergency room for every little thing, a stomach ache, a small cut etc etc. The last thing we need is for taxpayer money paying for likeminded people under socialized medicine. Just like i dont want taxpayer money going to pay for my doctor visits. I've been to a doctor twice in 10 years, and i can afford it on my own, we dont need to encourage healthy people to be flocking to their doctors office every month.

[Vasileios]

I believe General Motors laid off tens of thoussands of people when it scored record profits that year. Big businesses are not usually worried about going out of business, their prime motivation is *profit*. So if it is going to make them rmore profits laying off thousands of people and building a factory elsewhere (where there is cheap labor), they will do it, regardless if they are already making great profits.

Which is fine, but it hardly sounds like the model that leads to a more humanitarian society. Contrast that with the Eastern Roman Empire, where there was a roof imposed by the government as to how rich you could actually get.

As for free health care, I disagree completely with you and so do my parents who are both doctors and have had their share of imaginary patients.

[Lotar]

It cannot be too often repeated that what destroyed the Family in the modern world was Capitalism. No doubt it might have been Communism, if Communism had ever had a chance, outside that semi-Mongolian wilderness where it actually flourishes. But so far as we are concerned, what has broken up households and encouraged divorces, and treated the old domestic virtues with more and more open contempt, is the epoch and power of Capitalism. It is Capitalism that ahs forced a moral feud and a commercial competition between the sexes; that has destroyed the influence of the parent in favor of the influence of the employer; that ahs driven men from their homes to look for jobs; that has forced them to live near their factories or their firms instead of near their families; and, above all, that has encouraged for commercial reasons, a parade of publicity and garish novelty, which is in its nature the death of all that was called dignity and modesty by our mothers and fathers. It is not the Bolshevist but the Boss, the publicity man, the salesman and the commercial advertiser who have, like a rush and riot of barbarians, thrown down and trampled under foot the ancient Roman statue of Verecundia. But because the thing is done by men of this sort, of course it is done in their own muggy and muddle-headed way; by all the irresponsible tricks of their fouls Suggestion and their filthy Psychology.
-G.K. Chesterton, The Three Foes of the Family

[Lotar]

Related to this topic is Fr. Jonathan Tobias' conversation with the dolphin: http://janotec.typepad.com/terrace/2007/09/what-the-dolphi.html


Production and money do not determine politics. Politics determines economics, and politics is determined by religion, which in turn is determined by the bodiless powers. "Economy is the secular image of religious conviction."
Religious conviction is especially acute (and pernicious) when it acts under the mask of secularism. Few prophets are more fundamentalistic than are the imams of scientific materialism.
Today's economy destroys homes and families, folk groups, folk-ways and folk-churches (leaving only anti-folk industrial constructs in its wake, burning à la auto da fé the hardback hymnals of more faithful times), and militates profoundly against personhood. Two careers in the agora are now necessary to keep up with the prurient commands of the Sekhmetian American Dream (i.e., "sad"), and the children are left in the care of surrogates. The preponderance of divorce, the packing of nursing homes, the ubiquity of ADHD and the epidemic of autism should be enough to indict industrialism. But the court that could have adjudicated my complaint has been long adjourned (since WWI).

[buzuxi02]

It cannot be too often repeated that what destroyed the Family in the modern world was Capitalism. No doubt it might have been Communism, if Communism had ever had a chance, outside that semi-Mongolian wilderness where it actually flourishes. But so far as we are concerned, what has broken up households and encouraged divorces, and treated the old domestic virtues with more and more open contempt, is the epoch and power of Capitalism. It is Capitalism that ahs forced a moral feud and a commercial competition between the sexes; that has destroyed the influence of the parent in favor of the influence of the employer; that ahs driven men from their homes to look for jobs; that has forced them to live near their factories or their firms instead of near their families; and, above all, that has encouraged for commercial reasons, a parade of publicity and garish novelty, which is in its nature the death of all that was called dignity and modesty by our mothers and fathers. It is not the Bolshevist but the Boss, the publicity man, the salesman and the commercial advertiser who have, like a rush and riot of barbarians, thrown down and trampled under foot the ancient Roman statue of Verecundia. But because the thing is done by men of this sort, of course it is done in their own muggy and muddle-headed way; by all the irresponsible tricks of their fouls Suggestion and their filthy Psychology.
-G.K. Chesterton, The Three Foes of the Family
Perhaps we can use this to shame immigrants from coming to America. Perhaps i should send Chesterton to my father's village back in the old country. I think he will have a change of mind about capitalism. He will agree with the 3000 or so people who are now living in this country who escaped that place like my father along with 30 other relatives, but not to worry about the village, because of capitalism, those people have rebuilt there childhome houses in the past decade and even have installed toilets now only if the government brings them water. The water pipeline they kept promising for decades until they abandoned it completely in 1984.....Until last year when they saw how successful the transplants were and how they rebuilt the place all on their own, so once again the government is promising running water.

[Lotar]

Chesterton believed in local governance over centralized governance, and family-based ownership and economics over large scale corporations.

I think your annecdotal experience isn't applicable.

[Thekla]

from (what I imagine to be) a somewhat objective perspective, it seems that dissolving a (married) household to set up two separate households (after divorce) likely adds to the GNP

[buzuxi02]

Chesterton believed in local governance over centralized governance, and family-based ownership and economics over large scale corporations.

I think your annecdotal experience isn't applicable.
I dont see many people setting up communities based after the Amish or Mennonites. What i do see on the other hand is the hypocrisy of blaming the corporations, the same corporations which produce your, automobiles and airplanes for travel, medical advances, and all sorts of engineering. I'm probably one of the few people who doesnt own a cellphone, yet the same people who do own them (in most european countries more than one) have problems with Apple, Nokia, and Reasearch in Motion. Silly populism, creating a false dichotomy between social classes.

[Philothei]

I dont see many people setting up communities based after the Amish or Mennonites. What i do see on the other hand is the hypocrisy of blaming the corporations, the same corporations which produce your, automobiles and airplanes for travel, medical advances, and all sorts of engineering. I'm probably one of the few people who doesnt own a cellphone, yet the same people who do own them (in most european countries more than one) have problems with Apple, Nokia, and Reasearch in Motion. Silly populism, creating a false dichotomy between social classes.
I have to give you some credit for that buzuxi for I find that "hypocricy" in many of people who claim to be "naturalists" or "socialists" as they exist in all societies but.... rathrer than 'blame' the little guy .... for not be able to "bring water pipeline" in your village why not blaming the Goven't itself that does not create insentinves for people to move back to their villages???

I know 2 proffessinal people with their families from America.... who (one is a dentist and the other an egineer) went back to their villages.... gathered more proffessionals and started a "community" .... themselves because they were true believers in the "village mentality" and community.... I also know nuns who were doctors before who willingly serve a small clinic in Peloponese... and see patients for free... There are many ways we could help built family, community and nations... And do not forget these women in northern Greece who started their own production of canned fruit and sweets.... the list goes on and on..

In Crete we have biorganic agriculture growing......that is very successful... We do not need some big companies...to come and 'give us work' .... and turn our country into an electronics factory....


Philothei

[Lotar]

Bravo Philothei!

I'm working on something to better explain my opinion on the subject. Here is what I have so far:

As a matter of importance, I should air my thoughts concerning the subject of Capitalism and Industrialism (importance in so far as these discussions are concerned, not that my opinion is of any significance). In short, I am an anti-Capitalist, though equally against the yang to its yin, that being Socialism. I lean strongly towards Distributism, and I have sympathetic and nostalgic feelings towards Agrarianism. I generally agree with JRR Tolkien, CS Lewis, Fr Seraphim Rose and many of the recent Athonite Fathers that industrialism and the mechanization of humanity are blights upon the earth and harmful to the human soul.

I take it as no coincidence that the rise of industrialism and the triumph of Capitalism have coincided with the rise of the evils of "popular culture" and its religious twin, and the decimation of traditional society, religion and family. Individualism, Secularism, Consumerism, Materialism, Feminism, Usury, mass-scale Urbanization, Contraception and Abortion are all profitable for the Capitalist.

Secularism and Pluralism are damnable notions, and I believe that if one is to be truly Christian then Christianity should be the supreme basis of all facets of life. One cannot play the Agnostic or Pluralist in public life and the Christian in private; Christ said something about serving two masters. I am a traditionalist, in the sense that I believe in traditional religion, traditional family, traditional society and traditional economics. As such, I believe that economics should be concerned with maintaining the traditional life and the connection to place, as it is beneficial to the human soul, which should be the chief concern behind all social and economic policies. Property and the means of production should be as widely dispersed as possible, such that the large majority of the population is self-employed. As Chesterton wrote, "the problem with Capitalism is that there are too few Capitalists."

Such a system might not be as "productive" monetarily as an industrialized Capitalist economy, but it would be productive in the return of the soul to our society. I am unconcerned with the probability that our country would become, on the whole, less affluent; as it would do our souls well to be less rich; let us camels mind the eye of the needle. More of our money should be spent on food (but certainly for less of it!) and less should be spent on cheap useless crap. This would give more meaning back to fasting.

Usury is a sin and the enslavement of the middle and lower classes, and should be outlawed. Thusly every family should own a home outright. There should never be property tax on a primary residence nor such a thing as "eminent domain"; both are Capitalist offences against property rights. Property rights and economic freedom are rights of the family, not nebulous entities. Just as the right to marry does not mean the right to have ten wives, the right to property does not mean the right to own ten properties or ten businesses.

Additions to the National Debt should be outlawed; it is the usury of a nation and is nothing more than a transfer of wealth from the family to the Capitalist and Usurer. All wars should be paid for by the upper-classes, without tax increases to the middle and lower-classes or resorting to usury. This would eliminate nearly all unnecessary wars (if not all), since there would no longer be much profit in it for anyone.

Tolkien once described the train as the iron phallus with which industrialism rapes the countryside. I think the same can be said of "that infernal combustion engine". The workplace should be within walking distance of the home, for those few for whom the home is not also the workplace. The majority of the nation should be de-paved, and speed limits should be cut in half. Too many of those quiet tree-lined dirt roads, which were conducive to a reflective walk, are now the paved noisy domain of those mechanical beasts.

There should be tariffs on imports, especially on food products. Sales tax should be a sliding scale based upon the distance between the point of production and the point of purchase. In short, everything should be made small again, that is, globalization should be reversed and everything localized. Babel was a bad idea; let us tear it down before God does it for us.

Automobiles and motorcycles with loud engines or stereos should be confiscated and scrapped. Television is of little productive use and the source of much harm; it should be localized and limited in broadcast time, or better yet, banned altogether. I also sympathize with Lewis' views concerning the radio, and so think it should meet a similar fate as the television. The same applies to portable music devices. As Elder Paisios the Athonite once said, "Silence greatly helps in spiritual life."

No building in any town or city should be taller than the tallest church or cathedral. All churches not facing eastward should be torn down and rebuilt, as should all churches built in the modernist, post-modernist or industrial auditorium style of design. All commerce should cease on Sundays, feast days (including the twelve days of Christmas and Bright Week) and Holy Week. All primary education should take place in the home, in sectarian schools or a combination of both. It may "take a village" to raise a child, but that village should be an actual local community of like-minded people, not some mythical "global village" governed by godless and nearly childless materialists. Secularism, one of the chief Capitalist deities, should be pulled down as the pagan idols of old.

http://pactum-serva.blogspot.com/

[buzuxi02]

Wait a sec, Lotar are you a monk? If so thats a completely different story, a monk will practise what he preaches, materialism and a technologically advanced way of life isnt something that will seduce them.

But for most, this is wishful thinking. People like their Playstation and XBOX games played on there large flat screen televisions. I dont know any 20-something year old who can live without their cellphones. If i had a dime everytime a woman told me she wants to marry someone rich, i would be rich myself. Heck I remember a few years ago, a girl told me , "Im not getting into an american car" when she found out i drove an old pontiac. She was a "bmw girl" but any european car would do for her. People are drawn to a capitalist society, they love it, they would never go back to the 18th-19th century way of life

Secondly i dont think its feasible, most technological advancements come from the private sector; meaning corporations, both good and bad advancements. I'm not trying to say that your ideas are bad, in many ways they appeal to me (but they wont appeal to the fairer species nor to the majority of the worlds population). I hear it all the time, when people visit a less industrialized and more laid back society whther in the United States or abroad, they usually characterize the people that live there as backwards and red-necks and hicks, or as the greeks say vlachoi. I think the people who most criticize capitalism and big corporation are the same people that cant live without them. I'm not going to play the hippocrite, i love my motorcycle with its 1600cc engine and i want a gas guzzling musclecar, i also like my central airconditioning in the summer, all brought to me by some global corporation like yamaha and General Electric and i thank them for it.

[Philothei]

Wait a sec, Lotar are you a monk? If so thats a completely different story, a monk will practise what he preaches, materialism and a technologically advanced way of life isnt something that will seduce them.

But for most, this is wishful thinking. People like their Playstation and XBOX games played on there large flat screen televisions. I dont know any 20-something year old who can live without their cellphones. If i had a dime everytime a woman told me she wants to marry someone rich, i would be rich myself. Heck I remember a few years ago, a girl told me , "Im not getting into an american car" when she found out i drove an old pontiac. She was a "bmw girl" but any european car would do for her. People are drawn to a capitalist society, they love it, they would never go back to the 18th-19th century way of life

Secondly i dont think its feasible, most technological advancements come from the private sector; meaning corporations, both good and bad advancements. I'm not trying to say that your ideas are bad, in many ways they appeal to me (but they wont appeal to the fairer species nor to the majority of the worlds population). I hear it all the time, when people visit a less industrialized and more laid back society whther in the United States or abroad, they usually characterize the people that live there as backwards and red-necks and hicks, or as the greeks say vlachoi. I think the people who most criticize capitalism and big corporation are the same people that cant live without them. I'm not going to play the hippocrite, i love my motorcycle with its 1600cc engine and i want a gas guzzling musclecar, i also like my central airconditioning in the summer, all brought to me by some global corporation like yamaha and General Electric and i thank them for it.
I think you are dating the wrong women.... lol.... and yes Vlachoi are people that live in the mountains of Greece .... nothing wrong with them... Also if you like airconditioner ...you will need it more and more as global warming is getting worse... The average summer temp for Greece will rise (has already started....) to 42 Celcius... how about that? and it is due to the big car you and I are driving (had no choice...) .... and the list for enviromental damage due to "everyone wants a big car" mentality goes on and on..... Are we realizing our kids will die from the heat? with no clean water ....or we are parroting that "it is only a theory" logo?

Industrilization has "destroyed" our planet and it is time to wake up ...actually it is too late.....but those of us who bring children in this world we have a responsibility as stewards of this world to put a stop to it... even in small ways... to make a difference.

Villlage life is not "passe" to all of us. Personally I wish I could do it.... and I know many would love to be able to do it given the circurmstances. Clean air and water growing your own food ...why not?

[All4Christ]

Honestly - I never quite understood how it can be a good thing for us to have a Christian empire. And I realize this isn't exactly what is being said here. But tell me - doesn't that often cause corruption within Christianity? I mean - yes, the church grows because of that. But should it grow in the sense of an overall societal sense of Christianity? Or should it be out of a person truly wanting to live for God? Doesn't that produce many lukewarm Christians? Christians who are Christians in name only? For example - look at all of the political agendas that were promoted in the name of Christianity? Isn't that a result of a so-called Christian nation? Yes, perhaps a Christian Nation would be ideal - if it weren't for human nature coming into the picture. Or - what about those people who are 'Christians' just because that's that they are told they should be? Or that's what their family was before them? It seems to me that that produces Secular Christians - just like there are secular Jews, or secular Muslims, etc. Almost as if it is a culture as well as religion. Is that right?? Doesn't that make it difficult for us to be a good example of what a Christian should be? It seems to me that that will give a mediocre example of Christianity - as secular Christians won't be presenting the picture of what a Christian really should be.

Please, I'm open to explanations in either side. I just never quite understood this. And no offense intended to anyone.

[Philothei]

You are posing an interesting point and many historians are yet to find out what constitutes a Christian state and what is not.... Byzantium is like no other historical twin.... It was a unique empire that started with the idea of .... building upon a Christian State and growing out of a Hellenistic and Roman world.... It has its advantages and disadvantages... we cannot say for sure that it was bad or good... I will just say it was "there" at the time that Christianity took of as a religion and it shaped it.... as to what we know it today...

Emperors came and went as Patriarchs did the same... There were good emperors, bad emperors... and some in between.... the same goes to Patriarchs.... Popes etc...

We cannot either dismiss it or approve of it. It's "fruits" we see today as we have to our hands 1. the bible 2. the EO father's writtings,3. the councils in defense of the faith, 4. Icons.... religious expressions 5.monasticism

All the above flurished within the Byzantine culture....
Monasticism as a reaction to secularism that you mentioned so rightly. Also Iconography, hymnology flurished because of the "freedom of religion" that it was unknown in those days..... in societies Also the councils .. that gave us true Christian faith free of heressy and falsehood.... I can go on and on....

Was Byz state secular?? Yes to a degree it was... and it operated as a secular kingdom. Was it also theocentric ??? Yes. it was... Was it corrupt? Yes at times it was very corrupted...But that is human nature... I deny to believe that we live in a perfect state of religion (any denomination or juristiction) that there is no corruption or scandals.... that is a myth... so to judge Byzantium as a place so desolant .... is to me to add on to the "slander" agianst Byzantium.... Rome and Vatican had their share of problems .... that by far would compare to that of the Eastern Empire... I am not trying to idealize here as I stated before it was not an angelic world by far....

Hope that makes some sense....


God bless,
Philothei

[All4Christ]

You are posing an interesting point and many historians are yet to find out what constitutes a Christian state and what is not.... Byzantium is like no other historical twin.... It was a unique empire that started with the idea of .... building upon a Christian State and growing out of a Hellenistic and Roman world.... It has its advantages and disadvantages... we cannot say for sure that it was bad or good... I will just say it was "there" at the time that Christianity took of as a religion and it shaped it.... as to what we know it today...

Emperors came and went as Patriarchs did the same... There were good emperors, bad emperors... and some in between.... the same goes to Patriarchs.... Popes etc...

We cannot either dismiss it or approve of it. It's "fruits" we see today as we have to our hands 1. the bible 2. the EO father's writtings,3. the councils in defense of the faith, 4. Icons.... religious expressions 5.monasticism

All the above flurished within the Byzantine culture....
Monasticism as a reaction to secularism that you mentioned so rightly. Also Iconography, hymnology flurished because of the "freedom of religion" that it was unknown in those days..... in societies Also the councils .. that gave us true Christian faith free of heressy and falsehood.... I can go on and on....

Was Byz state secular?? Yes to a degree it was... and it operated as a secular kingdom. Was it also theocentric ??? Yes. it was... Was it corrupt? Yes at times it was very corrupted...But that is human nature... I deny to believe that we live in a perfect state of religion (any denomination or juristiction) that there is no corruption or scandals.... that is a myth... so to judge Byzantium as a place so desolant .... is to me to add on to the "slander" agianst Byzantium.... Rome and Vatican had their share of problems .... that by far would compare to that of the Eastern Empire... I am not trying to idealize here as I stated before it was not an angelic world by far....

Hope that makes some sense....


God bless,
Philothei
Yes - I agree there were good things that came out of it. There also are some negative things (in my opinion) that came out of it too...

please don't take offense to this - and feel free to refute this - but from an outsider's point of view - it seems like some of the more ethnic groups of Orthodoxy have attracted both pious people - and people who give a negative depiction of Orthodoxy. I say this not out of a negative attitude - but as looking at Orthodoxy for years before I gave it a chance - and only seeing those who were having a heritage of Orthodoxy (mainly those whose families were Serbian or Greek) - who did not depict what Orthodoxy really is. In fact - they depicted quite the opposite. I realize this is not everyone in the Serbian or Greek Orthodox Churches. I don't mean to point fingers at anyone in specific. I am saying that it 'appears' that when ANY religion is a nation-wide religion, then it seems to have two types of people coming out of it. Very pious and holy people - and those who are Christian in name only. When I hear of a Christian empire - it reminds me of things like that happening. And honestly - it makes me sad. I wish that I could help to revitalize the Orthodox Christians who have fallen away from the church. I wish there could be a revival of youth in the Orthodox Church. I wish that Orthodox Christians would step up in missions - both within the Orthodox Church itself and out of it. I wish that we could make the Orthodox Church so alive - that Protestants wouldn't feel the need to go evangelize there.

OK - I think I've rambled enough :-) Please remember - this is not meant to be offensive. I just really have desired in the past few months to step up and have us revitalize the Church. Cuz you know - if we won't do it - someone else will......

[All4Christ]

And when I say revitalize - I mean reigniting the passion of Christians for following God and for growing as a Christian, ya know?

[Philothei]

Do not worry you are not scandalize me at all... and I am not getting offended I lived all my teenage and early adult life in an Orthodoxy Nation... Greek. Thus I am speaking with experience behind what I say here about "modern" Orthodox nation... not with byfocals...lol... since I have lived another 20 here in the US. Human nature is the same it does not change no matter where you live... this is rule number 1....

Given that I ask you this question:

Would you rather have youth (college age) who never experienced religion ... or youth who have been baptized, somehow "christianized" because of their environment and then continued to be "agnostics" our of choice??? In my book the later have more chances to come back to their religion than the first group... Proof to that are the immigrants from Orhtodox countries when they come to America... They become Church goes....they baptize their kids they do 'try' at least to live a life in their Church... they were introduced in a very tender age to Orthodoxy.. and that is a faith they did not forget... to their adulthood.

I am not idealizing that ALL they do this... some do go to other churches... but their children who are products of an non-chiristian environment have a worse time going back to the Church of their parents... WHY? many 2, 3 and 4 generation GA become "something else" christians... easier... we do not see that happening in Nations with ethnic Churches are we??? Ask any Greek if he/she would join the Mormons or Jehovah and you will hear their straightforward answer....

The problem with Atheism, or agnosticism in modern society has nothing to do with being a product of "christian state" ... that actually helps to fight it... it is secularism and commercialism and .... bottom line prefering to go to the beach on Sunday morning with friends and have a nice "individualistic" jolly good time instead the Church.... it all boils down to ... modern ethos... not "the state church" ... IMO at least that is how I see things. I have agnostic cousins in Greece... and I do not think the fact they were going to church every Saturday morning made them agnostics... rather the fact that it was not "cool" to go to church but it was 'cool' to be involved in politics and ....follow the crowd..... everyone his own mentality and secular standards...the good part about it is that Orthodoxy is always there as God is always there ... that wherever they realize what they are missing in their lives they always can return...I do not think that is representing "Orthodoxy" as "bad religion" . No more bad than 'lapsed' catholics, protestants....etc...

On the other issue about wittnessing and ... renewal... yes I agree one have to take his faith seriously and witnessing is the best way to proclaim Orthodoxy. I do engage myself in conversation with agnostics in my country... in my neighbourhood wherever I can... I wear a cross.. if that symbol means anything to our society any more than just a jewerly.... I do not mean to sound pessimistic and I hope I do not, but we are instruments of God and God will show us what we are supposed to do and how to witness... I know couple of times I was told to help in my extented family with issues and I did and I prayed for them day and night that is what I felt God wanted me to do at the time... and these people now are back to normal healthy and productive.... I did not do anything God did ... and I am happy my prayers were answered. At other time they were not ... God knows best.

I believe Orthopraxis goes hand in hand with orthodogma...

One cannot only preach and not pray or just do it... we have to do both... We have to act outwordly as a Christian and also inworldy.. by praying. The fathers say that if we cannot do good all the time at least we can refrain from doing bad.

I hope that sheds some light about the EOC in an Orthodox land.....


God bless,
Philothei

[All4Christ]

Yes - that does help. You're right in that it is important to have a Christian background - and to be exposed to it. What you are saying does make sense. I guess it's an entire foreign concept for me to grasp - coming from a Protestant background. Yet - I would say that it is much better for someone to know and be familar with Christianity rather than never know about it at all. I guess the danger is in becoming complacent about it - and possibly assuming that because you are "Orthodox" by heritage - that you are saved. You would know better than me with that - does that happen more in an Orthodox country rather than a non-Orthodox country? I honestly don't know for sure :: shrug :: I guess we all need to do our part - as you said Orthopraxis and Orthodogma - and lead others to do the same through our example. I know I have plenty to work on before I can criticize others too much.

[Philothei]

Believe me All4 Christ in Greece and here ..... deep down they know that there is no automatic salvation....and to answer your question... No, Greeks like any "lapsed" christian 'wish' they could be saved... depending on the person.... but to my suprise most would admit to their sinful ways and tell you...jokinly... that if they enter a church the chandalear would fall on the head.... lol..
Greeks know what they have to do to go back to God... and they know He is there waiting... they know they have to make a right decision... What is their excuse? none... I feel that we will be called as a nation to answer to God how well we represented Christ to others no matter if we are Greeks or Brits or Americans ....but for Greek Christians more will be asked ... as it says in the Gospel...."To those who have more (faith, material goods etc) ....more will be required..." ....as for us living in the states who we are more afluent more will be required... at least that is how I interpret it.

God bless,
Philothei

[All4Christ]

Thanks Philothei...I appreciate your insight! Let me think about this a bit - I might have some more questions soon :)