Theotokos necessary ?

[Oblio]

When will it ever end ? (http://www.christianforums.com/t673152)

:sigh:

[Photini]

:sigh: Not anytime soon, I don't think.

It just kills me.

[Suzannah]

Even when I was a Protestant, I was secretly loving my Holy Mother. No, it will never stop. Our Enemy hates her with a passion that will not be denied.... :cry:

[MariaRegina]

Let us pray for their conversion and true repentance. :pray:

[Rilian]

That is rather funny. My inquirers class picked up last night for the first time since Pascha and the topic was, guess what, the Theotokos. Father Joseph remarked that many Protestants have adopted the Nestorian position without even realizing it.

[Momzilla]

When we met a couple of weeks ago, Fr. Marcus asked my thoughts about the Theotokos, since a lot of protestant converts have a hard time with the veneration of Mary. I'm like Suzannah--I've always loved the Theotokos, even more so since I became a mother myself.

[Photini]

As a protestant, I never really thought about the Virgin Mary.

I was very pleasantly surprised when visiting my Aunt's "non-denominational" church last year on Mother's Day. The pastor dedicated his whole sermon to Mary. He said that he believes that she is sorely neglected among Protestants and not given the proper honor and respect. So, alas! There is hope still yet.

[katherine2001]

Phontini, it was the same way for me. Now, I get really upset on her behalf when people just dismiss her. We owe her such a debt for saying "yes" to God and agreeing to conceive and give birth to Christ. Who would have blamed her if she had said "no"?

[InnerPhyre]

They don't know what they're missing.

[Philip]

Here is something that has confused me recently:

The are several Protestant denominations who make a point to state that they follow the Seven Councils. These denominations are ably represented by posters on CF. Where are they when threads like this appear? Why are we (Orthodox and Catholic) the only ones to defend the title Theotokos?

[Suzannah]

Philip: Good point. There are many at CF who hold to the Nicene Creed, but they are also seriously confused about the Trinity. I've seen "mainstream" Christians say things like: "They all have different expressions" .... :eek:

[Eusebios]

Hi All,
In response to Oblio's original querey, I doubt whether it will ever stop. I never thought about the Nestorian connection before, but it makes perfect sense I guess.
Like many of you all, I had no problem with "Mary" or even "The Virgin Mary" when a Protestant. Then came the whole "Theotokos" issue. I remember well how a good friend (still a Protestant) who was very fond of Church history and a student of the seven councils raised this issue in discussion. I balked, and he calmy proceeded to give such a rational (eek, I hate that term sometimes, but it's appropriate here) explanation that I knew to deny that The Blessed Virgin was , in fact, Theotokos, would be to deny my faith in Christ.It was this factoid, coupled with an intense study of John 6 that led many of our friends (we were living communally at this point) towards Holy Orthodoxy.
While I'm happy to see the reports from some here that they have heard Protestants say good things about "Mary", I think that it falls somewhat short. Unless she can be embraced as both Mary and Theotokos, it seems to me to fall short of orthodoxy. An improper grasp of the Theotokos, I believe, leads to an inadequate Christology, one that tends towrds both gnosticism and arianism.
I've decided to join many of you in adding a Marian appendage to my sig tag, I'm off to do so now.
His unworthy servant,
Eusebios.
:bow:

[Peter]

Where did this thread begin? I'm a tad confused.

Peter,
Lover of The Theotokos

[Suzannah]

Hi Peter! The first post is actually a link....gotta watch that Oblio! ;)

[Eusebios]

He's SO tricky!

[opus_dei]

howdy folks...nothing really new to add. it may never end, but seeing the whole issue rather unceremoniously kicked around in some instances is a good motivation for prayer an a serious reflection on faith. at least for me.

peace
o.d.

[nicodemus]

I think the majority of the "anti-Mary-ness" espoused by a lot of protestants is the result of the anti-catholicism so prevalent in a lot of protestant culture. A lot of that probably isn't even theologically based as much as it is culturally based. back in my protestant days, I used to take many a swipe at catholics and probably a few at the Theotokos as well. Thankfully, I've been corrected on both counts.

[The Prokeimenon!]

I never understood why Protestants would not call Mary the Mother of God (I never heard "Theotokos" until I started investigating Orthodoxy). I remember preachers would get up and say "Mary is the mother of Jesus, NOT the Mother of God, as Catholics say. I just didn't get it. I would ask "If Jesus is God, why isn't Mary the Mother of God?" and I never got an answer. It's just knee-jerk Rome-o-phobia. I thank God that I never understood their position. I know a lot of converts really struggle with this. I was lucky I guess. Loving the Theotokos is natural, right, and wonderful! I wish everybody knew!

Moses

[Lotar]

Here is something that has confused me recently:

The are several Protestant denominations who make a point to state that they follow the Seven Councils. These denominations are ably represented by posters on CF. Where are they when threads like this appear? Why are we (Orthodox and Catholic) the only ones to defend the title Theotokos?
Some of us spoke out against the Nestorians a couple of times back in the PRE. I think a lot of it comes down to the us vs them mentality in the theology forums. Catholics and Orthodox rarely debate each other and Protestants rarely debate each other, even though there are plenty of subjects where such "alliances" are not compatible. Which is too bad if you ask me.

[Philip]

Some of us spoke out against the Nestorians a couple of times back in the PRE.

I did notice your comments concerning Calvary Chapel. :clap: I actually had Anglicans in mind when I wrote that post.

[Peter]

Growing up a Protestant and reared as a Catholic hater, I know that the term "Mother of God" meant something very distasteful to us. To the pastor I was under it meant that somehow Mary invented or originated the God head.

Since I've become Orthodox I've come to realize that the term, of course, says more about who Jesus is than what Mary did. But many with strong anti-Catholic feelings do what has already been pointed out, they have a knee jerk reaction.

Peace.

Peter

[Michael the Iconographer]

That is rather funny. My inquirers class picked up last night for the first time since Pascha and the topic was, guess what, the Theotokos. Father Joseph remarked that many Protestants have adopted the Nestorian position without even realizing it(my emphasis).

That does not shock me. There really are no new heresies just the same old ones which have already been debunked, same old heresies just given a new coat of paint and a fresh air about them. It is obvious how much the enemy hates the Theotokus.

[KennySe]

Here is something that has confused me recently:

The are several Protestant denominations who make a point to state that they follow the Seven Councils. These denominations are ably represented by posters on CF. Where are they when threads like this appear? Why are we (Orthodox and Catholic) the only ones to defend the title Theotokos?

My very same thoughts, Philip.

When will they step up to the plate?

[countrymousenc]

Actually, I recall that a few of them (some of our Lutheran friends come to mind) have defended the veneration of Mary in the fairly recent past. I don't recall whether her title "Theotokos" came into the discussions, though.

[katherine2001]

With the attitude of one of the posters on that thread, Nestorianism and other heresies will continue to rear their ugly heads. He had no interest in knowing what Nestorian taught. Well, I have to admit that I didn't know anything about church history (I thought it didn't start until the Reformation), and I certainly didn't know that writings from the Early Church and later centuries still existed. However, I must admit that I find the attitude of not caring about the heresies that have come up over the centuries. As the scriptures say, there is nothing new under the sun. Many of those heresies are still alive and well.

I think people may be afraid to acknowledge her as the Mother of God. I think in many ways, many Protestants don't understand the full implications of the Incarnation--I'm still working on that one myself. If they did, they wouldn't believe in the total depravity of man or of material matter. Also, then of course, they would have no problem with icons or even paintings of Christ (which some Protestants do have problems with).

[Lotar]

I think a lot of people have the same problem as Nestorious, the title Mother of God sounds blasphemous, like she is somehow a god herself or created God.

[countrymousenc]

This may have been said already on this thread :sorry: - "Theotokos" literally means "God-birth-giver." It has to do, as you already know, Lotar, with affirming that Christ was truly divine as well as human from conception. You didn't need that explanation, but maybe someone "out there" reading along does. Until I understood it, I had problems with it, too. Protestants (and coming from a Baptist-like background, you know this) have been filled with a lot of propaganda about paganism creeping into the early Church and corrupting it, and so many of them don't have a clue and are afraid to really examine the issues honestly lest they be sucked into a "cult." That concept looks ridiculous to the Orthodox, but, having walked that road myself, I understand why they think that way. Sometimes their suspicion is so ingrained that they're suspicious of each other!

[Matthias]

I don't know what it is, but it pains me too...

[gorion]

Speaking for myself, my problem with the veneration of Mary as I saw it in the CC (I never heard of Orthodoxy until recently) was the whole "appearance" of idolotry. I know this is nothing new to you guys but this is the big hang up. We are taught to worship God alone. From the outside looking in it looks like idolatry and from that perspective calling her the "mother of God" doesn't really do it for us uneducated protestants in fact it just cements our necks into the stiff position.

Good thing for me I ran into Anonykat and some other knowledgable Orthodox believers and being a young Christian still had some flexibility in my neck, I am now on the road to becoming Orthodox.

But this Mary conversation was a stumbling point for me. It wasn't until I heard what was actually believed and "was willing to be open minded" that I was able to get beyond it. There is the rub. People hate to admit they are wrong about anything. They have it in their heads that anyone who believes as you are idolators and no one is going to tell them any different. They always believed this and the people whom they respected believed this as well. So they not only have to admit they are wrong but the people they have looked up to are wrong as well. That can be a tough pill to swallow.

[Photini]

Good thing for me I ran into Anonykat and some other knowledgable Orthodox believers and being a young Christian still had some flexibility in my neck, I am now on the road to becoming Orthodox.

.

:clap: Awesome!

But this Mary conversation was a stumbling point for me. It wasn't until I heard what was actually believed and "was willing to be open minded" that I was able to get beyond it. There is the rub. People hate to admit they are wrong about anything. They have it in their heads that anyone who believes as you are idolators and no one is going to tell them any different. They always believed this and the people whom they respected believed this as well. So they not only have to admit they are wrong but the people they have looked up to are wrong as well. That can be a tough pill to swallow.
Very true. And then, at least in my observation, after a conversion is made, sometimes we become very bitter to our former error. You can see this bitterness sometimes when you read books that are written by converts...especially if they are recent converts.

[Polycarp1]

I did notice your comments concerning Calvary Chapel. :clap: I actually had Anglicans in mind when I wrote that post.
Foist, us Anglicans are wholeheartedly Chalcedonians -- the very first of the "Historical Documents of the Faith" in the American BCP is the definition of Christ's two natures (Acta V of Chalcedon) complete with Theotokos. Like Orthodoxy, we see it as Christological not Mariological in significance.

And I for one have been fairly outspoken on a Christocentric focus that gives due honor to the Theotokos for her special role in bringing about the Incarnation and Atonement.

So, with due reference to Rule #7, Philip, I must award you a respectful but heartfelt :P for that comment. :)

[Nickolai]

Gorion,

I understand fully what you're talking about. I was a former Episcopalian. I adopted many of the "reformed" ways of thinking. (I put reformed in quotes because the acctual reformers wouldn't believe half of what reformed theology teaches today)

The Role of Mary as Mother of God and her role in our salvation was a hard thing for me to accept at first. But now, realizing the truth of the matter, I can't believe I thought differently than I do now.

And congrats on your conversion. It will be a glorious thing. Best thing you ever do.

[Eusebios]

Speaking for myself, my problem with the veneration of Mary as I saw it in the CC (I never heard of Orthodoxy until recently) was the whole "appearance" of idolotry. I know this is nothing new to you guys but this is the big hang up. We are taught to worship God alone. From the outside looking in it looks like idolatry and from that perspective calling her the "mother of God" doesn't really do it for us uneducated protestants in fact it just cements our necks into the stiff position.

Good thing for me I ran into Anonykat and some other knowledgable Orthodox believers and being a young Christian still had some flexibility in my neck, I am now on the road to becoming Orthodox.

But this Mary conversation was a stumbling point for me. It wasn't until I heard what was actually believed and "was willing to be open minded" that I was able to get beyond it. There is the rub. People hate to admit they are wrong about anything. They have it in their heads that anyone who believes as you are idolators and no one is going to tell them any different. They always believed this and the people whom they respected believed this as well. So they not only have to admit they are wrong but the people they have looked up to are wrong as well. That can be a tough pill to swallow.
gorion,
I can totally relate to everything you are saying. This is precisely where I was 5 or so years ago. Even as a catechumen I struggled greatly, particularly with the ever-virginity. My wise parish priest having asked me about any reservations or questions I had merely responded not to worry, it would"come to me". Right now, I can't even remember what service it is (Eve of the Nativity?) there are numerous OT readings that have to do with the Theotokos. I was blown away. I came to a nearly instant realization that she was in fact the Ark of the New Covenant, having contained God in her womb. Who in their right mind would touch her knowing this?
It's great that you have decided to begin your journey home, you will be in my prayers!
His unworthy servant,
Eusebios.
:bow:

[Rilian]

gorion, there's a pretty good article by Fr. Peter Gillquist called facing up to Mary (http://www.protomartyr.org/mary.html) written from a Protestant perspective.

[gorion]

gorion, there's a pretty good article by Fr. Peter Gillquist called facing up to Mary (http://www.protomartyr.org/mary.html) written from a Protestant perspective.
I have that article in a booklet, it is very good. Thanks, :) The local parish has been great with providing literature and alot of people I have met on the web have been great at providing links. Just like you guys ;)

I have just finished reading "Thirsting for God in a land of shallow wells" by Matthew Gallatin. What a fantastic book. I highly recommend it.