Refusing Prayer

[Tamara224]

That thread over in the main forum really makes me :cry: .


It's things like that which make me almost believe many of the WoF people aren't even really saved.

I said ALMOST. I take their word for it on these boards.

But to actually go so far as to refuse the prayer of their brethren just because we would ask for God's will to be done and not our own - as Jesus himself taught us to pray - it just really smacks of elitism and pride.

The very idea that our prayers are less effective than theirs because we have a doctrinal disagreement...it's just amazing.

And no matter what they say, it is unloving in the extreme. Like refusing a gift given out of love because it's not the exact gift you were hoping for. It disgusts and saddens me.

Oh God, give me patience.

[BenAdam]

The thread [wash my mouth][wash my mouth][wash my mouth][wash my mouth]ed me off. The "I'm more spiritual than you so I don't want you to pray for me" line disgusts me (although to be fair I believe the poster didn't mean to come across that way and doesn't realize that is what they were really saying).

This is one HUGE reason I don't hang with the WoF crowd anymore. People were spiritually arrogant thinking because they had more money, or more revelation, or less problems, ad infinitum. (Again to be fair, not all, but enough)

[Tamara224]

The thread [wash my mouth][wash my mouth][wash my mouth][wash my mouth]ed me off. The "I'm more spiritual than you so I don't want you to pray for me" line disgusts me (although to be fair I believe the poster didn't mean to come across that way and doesn't realize that is what they were really saying).

This is one HUGE reason I don't hang with the WoF crowd anymore. People were spiritually arrogant thinking because they had more money, or more revelation, or less problems, ad infinitum. (Again to be fair, not all, but enough)


Yeah, not all of them are like that. But it is what the teaching leads to.

There are several themes that crop up continuously with WoFers around here.

One is that they don't like talking about humility. Whenever anyone makes a post or thread about the need to be humble, they respond by claiming they are "the righteousness of God in Christ" and so everyone else's "false" humility is wrong.

Another is that they don't like talking about Love. Whenever anyone points out that they are coming across as unloving, they just claim they are telling the truth and they don't have to worry about it.

Now, again, there are notable exceptions to this. But it happens so often that I must conclude the teachings lend themselves to this pride and spiritual arrogance, this lack of love and refusal to be humble.

But really, the teaching lends itself to the belief that admitting the possibility of error is itself an impossibility. Because that would be lack of faith. So, they can never be wrong.

It's just sickening and sad.

[jeolmstead]

That thread over in the main forum really makes me :cry: .


It's things like that which make me almost believe many of the WoF people aren't even really saved.

I said ALMOST. I take their word for it on these boards.

But to actually go so far as to refuse the prayer of their brethren just because we would ask for God's will to be done and not our own - as Jesus himself taught us to pray - it just really smacks of elitism and pride.

The very idea that our prayers are less effective than theirs because we have a doctrinal disagreement...it's just amazing.

And no matter what they say, it is unloving in the extreme. Like refusing a gift given out of love because it's not the exact gift you were hoping for. It disgusts and saddens me.

Oh God, give me patience.
I quoted Jesus saying “love your enemies” last week in reference to not mistreating prisoners.

I was immediately told I was twisting scripture to promote my agenda.

If you can’t get your mind around the concept of unconditional love for those who don’t deserve it, what gospel are you teaching?

I wonder too T, I don’t mean that with any malice, I just don’t serve the God that some of these folks seem to.

John O.

[BenAdam]

John in that thread I was waiting to hear someone seriously say "Praise the Lord and pass the ammunition"

[JAS4Yeshua]

I was insane enough to start a thread on the subject in the main SF/PC forum. I do agree with what everyone has said in this thread. It is frustrating at times.

[JK]

Can I be honest I had to be really self controlled on that thread and must confess it was so hard. Wof beliefs make me very very distressed. It's hard enough believing God works everything for good, when you have a physical/emotional challenge. But to be told your faith is no good because you are not physically healed and you believe in an evil God is totally out of order.

[Tamara224]

I was insane enough to start a thread on the subject in the main SF/PC forum. I do agree with what everyone has said in this thread. It is frustrating at times.

:D Crazy. You better run for cover.


I guess maybe I'll check it out.

[JAS4Yeshua]

It is a big problem that I've even seen happen at my own church, which isn't Word of Faith. At my old church, a friend was told she should be off anti-depressants, because she simply needed more faith. When she did, she got so bad, she couldn't even help her family until she got back on her medications. At my church, a friend of my wife asked me if I thought my wife was really saved, because of how sick she has been, and the emotional, mental and spiritual struggles that she has had. She later apologized, but still, it was uncalled for.

[Tamara224]

Can I be honest I had to be really self controlled on that thread and must confess it was so hard. Wof beliefs make me very very distressed. It's hard enough believing God works everything for good, when you have a physical/emotional challenge. But to be told your faith is no good because you are not physically healed and you believe in an evil God is totally out of order.


Yeah, me too. That's why I started this thread instead. I knew that if I posted over there I'd cross the line and prove myself a hypocrite. Alas, I am one.

But still... I love God, I love Jesus. I struggle with unbelief at times, just like everyone else (who's honest with themselves) does. It's hard enough when it seems like God isn't answering. But then to be told that He doesn't even hear my prayers?! Or told that I think God is evil? I just can't deal with that very well.

[JAS4Yeshua]

Yeah, me too. That's why I started this thread instead. I knew that if I posted over there I'd cross the line and prove myself a hypocrite. Alas, I am one.

But still... I love God, I love Jesus. I struggle with unbelief at times, just like everyone else (who's honest with themselves) does. It's hard enough when it seems like God isn't answering. But then to be told that He doesn't even hear my prayers?! Or told that I think God is evil? I just can't deal with that very well.
I know what you mean. :sigh:

[BenAdam]

Well since we are airing our feelings, I don't understand how they can defend the fleecing of God's people by so many preachers.

[Tamara224]

Well since we are airing our feelings, I don't understand how they can defend the fleecing of God's people by so many preachers.

:( I don't know. I really don't.

[ralangley]

Hey you guys/gals!

I posted a comment in that thread, and now I realize I might have offended some of you, or at least contributed to your hurt. I'm sorry. I'm not WOF (at least, not entirely, although at times.....yes, we have many points in agreement), but still, I never meant to hurt any of you or in any way judge your beliefs as better, lessor, or dramatically different then my own.

Please accept my apologies. I'd rather stand with you than against you as your sister in Christ.

[jeolmstead]

For some folks this thing goes deeper then bad doctrine. It’s a controlling thing. How else can you explain how someone will overlook half the bible so they can misinterpret a handful of scriptures?

John O.

[jeolmstead]

ralangkey,

No problem ...at all

God bless!

John O.

[Tamara224]

Hey you guys/gals!

I posted a comment in that thread, and now I realize I might have offended some of you, or at least contributed to your hurt. I'm sorry. I'm not WOF (at least, not entirely, although at times.....yes, we have many points in agreement), but still, I never meant to hurt any of you or in any way judge your beliefs as better, lessor, or dramatically different then my own.

Please accept my apologies. I'd rather stand with you than against you as your sister in Christ.


Thank you for that ralangley. :hug:

[Tamara224]

For some folks this thing goes deeper then bad doctrine. It’s a controlling thing. How else can you explain how someone will overlook half the bible so they can misinterpret a handful of scriptures?

John O.


Yeah, I think you're right.

[jeolmstead]

Can I be honest I had to be really self controlled on that thread and must confess it was so hard. Wof beliefs make me very very distressed. It's hard enough believing God works everything for good, when you have a physical/emotional challenge. But to be told your faith is no good because you are not physically healed and you believe in an evil God is totally out of order.
Agreed,

I understand as well....

John O.

[JK]

Hey you guys/gals!

I posted a comment in that thread, and now I realize I might have offended some of you, or at least contributed to your hurt. I'm sorry. I'm not WOF (at least, not entirely, although at times.....yes, we have many points in agreement), but still, I never meant to hurt any of you or in any way judge your beliefs as better, lessor, or dramatically different then my own.

Please accept my apologies. I'd rather stand with you than against you as your sister in Christ.

:hug: :hug: I do

I personally know 4 Pastors whom I would say were WOF. Each pray for me non of whom condemn me for not being healed. One of which is praying for me and with me reguarly, which I am greatly benefiting from. So I can not judge the whole wof movement for the few who seem to hold extremist views but in saying that you find these in every denomination.

Whereever we are in our Christian Walk we need to be encouraged and we need to encourage one another not condemn those who do not believe as we do. Jesus never condemns those who are genuinely seeking Him.

[JAS4Yeshua]

:hug: :hug: I do

I personally know 4 Pastors whom I would say were WOF. Each pray for me non of whom condemn me for not being healed. One of which is praying for me and with me reguarly, which I am greatly benefiting from. So I can not judge the whole wof movement for the few who seem to hold extremist views but in saying that you find these in every denomination.

Whereever we are in our Christian Walk we need to be encouraged and we need to encourage one another not condemn those who do not believe as we do. Jesus never condemns those who are genuinely seeking Him.
:amen:

[HisKid1973]

I was involved in a troubled children's ministry run by a wof minister..I had a child come in that consistanly woke up at 5am after a week of losing sleep, I got sick with the flu from being run down...He can and prayed for me and hinted atbout sinning because I got sick...Then right after that at the church on the ministry grounds that we had to attend he spoke about God wanting us well of..He opened up a briefcase that had money taped on top like it was full ..He proceeded to tell the kids that when they come to Christ God will bless them .... (Bless them with what you might ask)as he shows them the briefcase of money.As the houseparents we understood about blessings but what do you think went through the kids minds.. Anyway I soon left after that as there were other problems..shalom.

[NorrinRadd]

...

But to actually go so far as to refuse the prayer of their brethren just because we would ask for God's will to be done and not our own - as Jesus himself taught us to pray - it just really smacks of elitism and pride.

The very idea that our prayers are less effective than theirs because we have a doctrinal disagreement...it's just amazing.

And no matter what they say, it is unloving in the extreme. Like refusing a gift given out of love because it's not the exact gift you were hoping for. It disgusts and saddens me.

Oh God, give me patience.

Let my try to explain their position from the perspective of my own WoF experiences around 20 years ago:

Yes, the theology *can* lead to a sort of spiritual elitism. But that's not necessarily what's in view here.

If you're in a branch of WoF that learned prayer according to, say, Hagin's Bible Prayer Study Course, you learned that there are several distinct "kinds" of prayer, and each has certain "rules."

So, suppose you go forward for prayer for your festering foot fungus.

Sometimes the pastor will pray, command the healing to be done, then lay his hand on your head (and if the Spirit does not knock you down automatically, the pastor will give a gentle push).

Other times, the pastor will decide to employ the "Prayer of Agreement." In that case, before actually praying, the pastor will talk with you to determine exactly what you are able to "believe for" at that time -- complete healing, less itching, whatever. The thinking is that if you just barge ahead and pray *supposedly* in "agreement" when you really are not -- if you *say* you are "believing" for complete healing, but really in your heart you're just "hoping" -- then you're really not in agreement at all and the prayer can't work. The main exception would be if one person is a "baby" Christian; then God would honor the faith of the more experienced pray-er.

Oddly, in spite of the proclamations of "faith," there is an element of fear involved: I "fear" that someone ELSE'S supposed lack of faith could ruin MY prayers.


And all that leaves aside the fact that the whole "Prayer of Agreement" thing is based on dodgy interpretation of Matt. 18:19-20, ignoring the context of vv. 15-17 and 21-22.

[Tamara224]

It seems that the whole "faith is a force" idea is what causes this prayer refusal debacle.

If faith is a force that opperates almost independent of God's sovereignty...then it would stand to reason that prayer could be undermined.

It's the same concept found in New Age teachings. The idea that a skeptic can block the forces and prevent healing. In fact, this idea was featured in an episode of Grey's Anatomy recently. New Age "faith healers" were in the hospital trying to "visualize" the healing. They were unable to proceed as long as someone with bad "chakra" was in the room. Until that person "really believed" he wasn't allowed in the room.

It is occultic. The idea that God is forced to do something, or unable to do something because of what we believe or don't believe. It puts man in control. It makes man more powerfull than God.

What ever happened to seeking the leading of the Holy Spirit?

And what is so wrong with praying for God's will to be done?!! Isn't God good? Isn't His will what is best for us? Why wouldn't we want that?

IMO, the whole idea indicates lack of faith. They don't trust God to do what's best for them. Or they don't want God to make those decisions for them...they want to control their own circumstances.

Besides, the only way for human beings to pray in 100% agreement is for us to pray in the Spirit. IOW, let the Holy Spirit intercede for us - because we don't really know what to pray for. All we have to do is humble ourselves, come together and seek Jesus.

Faith is not a formula. It is simple, childlike trust in God.

[youthwalk]

I feel better now.


I was so mad and hurt when I saw that thread. Disappointed. I never expected that. Offended even because I have prayed for people here, for God's will. How's that wrong.


I at one point thought I could be more WoF than non WoF but it's moments like these that come up too often here that make me realise that I cannot subscribe to such condescending, at times, self righteous beliefs.

No! I reject them. They're not of God's love.
How can you say to a forum of believers who have opend themselves and prayed and shared with you that they're effectively not good enough to pray for you?

I reject it!

Yes, I'm angry!

[BenAdam]

It seems that the whole "faith is a force" idea is what causes this prayer refusal debacle.

If faith is a force that opperates almost independent of God's sovereignty...then it would stand to reason that prayer could be undermined.

It's the same concept found in New Age teachings. The idea that a skeptic can block the forces and prevent healing. In fact, this idea was featured in an episode of Grey's Anatomy recently. New Age "faith healers" were in the hospital trying to "visualize" the healing. They were unable to proceed as long as someone with bad "chakra" was in the room. Until that person "really believed" he wasn't allowed in the room.

It is occultic. The idea that God is forced to do something, or unable to do something because of what we believe or don't believe. It puts man in control. It makes man more powerfull than God.

What ever happened to seeking the leading of the Holy Spirit?

And what is so wrong with praying for God's will to be done?!! Isn't God good? Isn't His will what is best for us? Why wouldn't we want that?

IMO, the whole idea indicates lack of faith. They don't trust God to do what's best for them. Or they don't want God to make those decisions for them...they want to control their own circumstances.

Besides, the only way for human beings to pray in 100% agreement is for us to pray in the Spirit. IOW, let the Holy Spirit intercede for us - because we don't really know what to pray for. All we have to do is humble ourselves, come together and seek Jesus.

Faith is not a formula. It is simple, childlike trust in God.
Imagine petitioning a court for something and a judge states that the person with you (who is speaking on your behalf) believes that in some cases that the thing you are petitioning for is unwarranted. Therefore your petition is essentially unworthy of consideration.

[Tamara224]

Imagine petitioning a court for something and a judge states that the person with you (who is speaking on your behalf) believes that in some cases that the thing you are petitioning for is unwarranted therefore your petition is essentially unworthy of consideration.


Appeal!! That's abuse of discretion and reversable error. ^_^


Good analogy.

[BenAdam]

Appeal!! That's abuse of discretion and reversable error. ^_^


Good analogy.
Thanks! Isn't that really what we are doing with God? We are coming before Him in petition. God isn't a machine that can only work if every thing is just so, He is God. He can't act contrary to His nature, but He has discretion within it.

[Tamara224]

Thanks! Isn't that really what we are doing with God? We are coming before Him in petition. God isn't a machine that can only work if every thing is just so, He is God. He can't act contrary to His nature, but He has discretion within it.


Exactly. In fact, the word pray means "to ask, to petition".

We use the word in the law all the time... the essential part of any civil complaint is the "prayer for relief". Without it, the case will get dismissed.

So, it is assumed in the definition of the word that praying means asking. Not claiming, just asking.

[BenAdam]

Exactly. In fact, the word pray means "to ask, to petition".

We use the word in the law all the time... the essential part of any civil complaint is the "prayer for relief". Without it, the case will get dismissed.

So, it is assumed in the definition of the word that praying means asking. Not claiming, just asking.
Wow, and I know next to nothing about legal stuff.

[Simon_Templar]

I used to be more conciliatory to WoF, and I still try not to antagonize whenever possible. However, over the last few months I have come to the conclusion that it is a false gospel.

That is not to say that all WoFers are false, or all WoF churches are bad etc. Because within any movement there are always degrees and variations etc.
The teaching, as it is commonly presented, however, is a "another" gospel in the sense that it is distinctly different in character and focus than the gospel presented by the bible.

[Andry]

Faith is not a force like it's the 4th person of the trinity. :D

There are times when we don't know his will, so we pray, if it be thy will. Why do people complicate it so much?

[Tenebrae]

Hey Peoples


Would just like to echo ralangely. There are some things I am ardently passionate about however if I have added to your burdens by being too forceful or unyielding in my position I would like to apologise and ask for your forgiveness.

because when we are divided we are weak, however when we can put aside our differences and rejoince in the things that make us one and stand against the true enemy, thats powerful.

While I have some similar beliefs to WoF, there is much more than I dont agree with, and to tell someone that God isnt going to heal them because they dont have the right level of faith, is cruel and down right nasty.

Again, my apologies

[JAS4Yeshua]

I notice that some of the major pride and resistence comes from a few people. I can tell it isn't indicitive of everyone. It is just unfortunate that some people refuse to look past their own pride and see the poison that is so subtly infecting the Body of Christ. :(

[JAS4Yeshua]

Just when I thought I heard it all. :sigh:

I couldn't believe the response that a person actually prays that other's "wrong" prayers won't have any affect on them. That reminds me of the old childhood teasing "I'm rubber and you're glue. Bounces off me and sticks to you." :(

This type of thinking makes God look like the cosmic genie in the bottle, waiting for the magic words said only by the elect few who know exactly what to say. I am so glad God isn't up there selectively listening to the "correct" prayers, because everyone would fall short, including those who claim to "have it right." :(

[ralangley]

Can I share something that's on my heart?

I've already shared with some of you that in my old life, I was an energetic healer. Faith in a benevolent universe was the foundation of my ability to heal. Through that faith, I was able to clear a variety of conditions ranging from chronic pain, to cancer. I also had an over three month waiting list because of this ability. People came to me because they heard I could heal them.

When I became a Christian, I was utterly shocked by how little Christians believed in a benign God. Most didn't even believe in miracles when I had witnessed them nearly every day. When I commanded (yes, commanded) a healing, I fully expected nothing less. In contrast, I found that Christians seemed to pray with one foot in hope, and one foot in doubt. They seemed to call it, "accepting God's will". Fear seemed to characterize their relationship with the supernatural....and for a while, that fear infected me. I painted everything from the new age as dark and evil - even my ability to heal. And then, slowly I began to understand that the devil can't create anything - he can only copy things that are real.

My belief now is that the devil wants us to fear the authority we have over sickness. He wants to cripple us and make us fear our own power to heal, cast out demons, and command the weather. Not everyone agrees with me, but every time I read the bible, that's what gets burnt into my spirit. To me, my new age healing was a cheap immitation of the true healing available through God.

I never heard of WOF before I came to this forum, and other than their position on healing and prosperity, I don't know much them. But what I do find interesting is the polarization I see on both sides of the fence. I find it disheartening that we feel the need to create divisions with each other over doctrines. I say that, while honestly recognizing that I would love to convince you of the truth of my position.....so I guess I'm also polarized and fail to see or appreciate positions other than my own. As Jason said, pride - which is a perpetual struggle for me - gets in my way.

It seems that this entire conflict arose when one poster stated she would not have others pray for her if they did not believe that God heals. I happen to agree with her, because I do believe that skeptics can break the flow of faith based power. This belief may be an useless remnant from my new age past, and maybe it has no basis in scripture. I need to examine it further and pray over it, and most of all, let the Holy Spirit teach me. But I also know, if I were dying or if a loved one of dying, I would want those praying for me to truly, fully, 100 percent believe in the miraculous power of God to heal.

These are just my thoughts. I don't want to offend, and it grieves me that so much pain has been experienced over this issue. Many of you are people I have grown to respect and admire. I'm hoping that perhaps, hearing a different perspective might bring understanding, and even compassion if I'm way out in left field.

We're all wanting to understand the will of our Father and to walk in obedience to it. We all have much to learn, and to teach each other. Peace, my friends.

[Simon_Templar]

Can I share something that's on my heart?

I've already shared with some of you that in my old life, I was an energetic healer. Faith in a benevolent universe was the foundation of my ability to heal. Through that faith, I was able to clear a variety of conditions ranging from chronic pain, to cancer. I also had an over three month waiting list because of this ability. People came to me because they heard I could heal them.

When I became a Christian, I was utterly shocked by how little Christians believed in a benign God. Most didn't even believe in miracles when I had witnessed them nearly every day. When I commanded (yes, commanded) a healing, I fully expected nothing less. In contrast, I found that Christians seemed to pray with one foot in hope, and one foot in doubt. They seemed to call it, "accepting God's will". Fear seemed to characterize their relationship with the supernatural....and for a while, that fear infected me. I painted everything from the new age as dark and evil - even my ability to heal. And then, slowly I began to understand that the devil can't create anything - he can only copy things that are real.

My belief now is that the devil wants us to fear the authority we have over sickness. He wants to cripple us and make us fear our own power to heal, cast out demons, and command the weather. Not everyone agrees with me, but every time I read the bible, that's what gets burnt into my spirit. To me, my new age healing was a cheap immitation of the true healing available through God.

I never heard of WOF before I came to this forum, and other than their position on healing and prosperity, I don't know much them. But what I do find interesting is the polarization I see on both sides of the fence. I find it disheartening that we feel the need to create divisions with each other over doctrines. I say that, while honestly recognizing that I would love to convince you of the truth of my position.....so I guess I'm also polarized and fail to see or appreciate positions other than my own. As Jason said, pride - which is a perpetual struggle for me - gets in my way.

It seems that this entire conflict arose when one poster stated she would not have others pray for her if they did not believe that God heals. I happen to agree with her, because I do believe that skeptics can break the flow of faith based power. This belief may be an useless remnant from my new age past, and maybe it has no basis in scripture. I need to examine it further and pray over it, and most of all, let the Holy Spirit teach me. But I also know, if I were dying or if a loved one of dying, I would want those praying for me to truly, fully, 100 percent believe in the miraculous power of God to heal.

These are just my thoughts. I don't want to offend, and it grieves me that so much pain has been experienced over this issue. Many of you are people I have grown to respect and admire. I'm hoping that perhaps, hearing a different perspective might bring understanding, and even compassion if I'm way out in left field.

We're all wanting to understand the will of our Father and to walk in obedience to it. We all have much to learn, and to teach each other. Peace, my friends.
I'm not offended by your comments and I hope that you won't be offended by mine.

I don't doubt the miraculous in the least. In fact, I probably believe a lot more miraculous things than most WoF or other pentecostals etc.
The issue is exactly what you have highlighted. The issue of control. The ideas we are talking about here (whether it be under the label WoF or other pentecostal teaching) are all about putting control in the hands of the person. In that regard they are essentially "Christian" witchcraft.

The two things that witchcraft is all about are power and control. This is why witchcraft and rebellion are biblically stated to be essentially the same thing. They are both about control.

The root problem is that some people can not accept that God, and thus life, the universe, or whatever else, are not under their control. He can't be predicted, or commanded and thus life can't be.

I believe much more in authority than most of the people around here do, but the common claim of many that we have all authority is just a veil for their desire for control.
If anyone truly believes in authority, or understands authority, they would know that we are under the absolute authority of God and as such there is no room for us to will things as we think they should be. That includes how we think God should be, or how we think his goodness should manifest itself in the world.

The heart and soul of Christianity is the issue of the Lordship of Jesus Christ over you, and over me. That means necessarily the submission of our will to his. It means the submission of our understanding to his revelation. It means that any doctrine which teaches people to try and control God, or control circumstances according to their will and their desire is contrary to the true Gospel of Jesus Christ.

[Tenebrae]

I'm not offended by your comments and I hope that you won't be offended by mine.

I don't doubt the miraculous in the least. In fact, I probably believe a lot more miraculous things than most WoF or other pentecostals etc.
The issue is exactly what you have highlighted. The issue of control. The ideas we are talking about here (whether it be under the label WoF or other pentecostal teaching) are all about putting control in the hands of the person. In that regard they are essentially "Christian" witchcraft.

.

Thats my problem with it as well

[Alpine]

Hmm. Well, maybe you could upset them by typing out a prayer for them? :-)

Much of this reminds me of the time I went up to the front for prayer at a church I used to attend. One of the deacons came up to me, and asked me why I came up. I told him about the incurable disease I have and how I want to be healed. He then asked if I ever asked the Lord for healing. I told him yes. He then asked why I was up there? All I need to do is believe it is done and continue to claim the healing that was mine. Then he prayed that I'd have more faith.

I actually sat down feeling condemned rather than encouraged. What he didn't know is it took a ton of courage for me to go up to the front.

[BenAdam]

Hmm. Well, maybe you could upset them by typing out a prayer for them? :-)

Much of this reminds me of the time I went up to the front for prayer at a church I used to attend. One of the deacons came up to me, and asked me why I came up. I told him about the incurable disease I have and how I want to be healed. He then asked if I ever asked the Lord for healing. I told him yes. He then asked why I was up there? All I need to do is believe it is done and continue to claim the healing that was mine. Then he prayed that I'd have more faith.

I actually sat down feeling condemned rather than encouraged. What he didn't know is it took a ton of courage for me to go up to the front.
Ah, the old you don't have enough faith line. Pathetic.

[BenAdam]

When I became a Christian, I was utterly shocked by how little Christians believed in a benign God.

What do you mean by a benign God? God is most certainly not benign.

[ralangley]

I'm not offended by your comments and I hope that you won't be offended by mine.

I don't doubt the miraculous in the least. In fact, I probably believe a lot more miraculous things than most WoF or other pentecostals etc.
The issue is exactly what you have highlighted. The issue of control. The ideas we are talking about here (whether it be under the label WoF or other pentecostal teaching) are all about putting control in the hands of the person. In that regard they are essentially "Christian" witchcraft.

The two things that witchcraft is all about are power and control. This is why witchcraft and rebellion are biblically stated to be essentially the same thing. They are both about control.

The root problem is that some people can not accept that God, and thus life, the universe, or whatever else, are not under their control. He can't be predicted, or commanded and thus life can't be.

I believe much more in authority than most of the people around here do, but the common claim of many that we have all authority is just a veil for their desire for control.
If anyone truly believes in authority, or understands authority, they would know that we are under the absolute authority of God and as such there is no room for us to will things as we think they should be. That includes how we think God should be, or how we think his goodness should manifest itself in the world.

The heart and soul of Christianity is the issue of the Lordship of Jesus Christ over you, and over me. That means necessarily the submission of our will to his. It means the submission of our understanding to his revelation. It means that any doctrine which teaches people to try and control God, or control circumstances according to their will and their desire is contrary to the true Gospel of Jesus Christ.

Here's one place I get the belief that we're to have authority of sickness. In Genesis, God said, "....thou art dust, and unto dust thou shall return.." So, in other words, death - and I would say, everything included in death i.e. sickness/injury - are part of our fallen state. But in the NT, Jesus said that he came that we might have life. He also commanded his apostles to take authority over sickness and demons. To me, that means we have the responsibility to cast out the fallen/cursed state in Christians so that we truly can have life. To me, that is following the will of my Father.

I know a lot of people have been wounded by insensitive so-called healers that use blame and condemnation to explain why some people don't get healed. Truth is, we never know if someone will get healed or not. Its God's work, not ours. That's where a lot of healers get into trouble. They forget who is doing the work. And it also is a function of the partnership of faith - from the receiver and the group of healers. But that doesn't negate the fact (or possibility if you'll entertain me) that God's will for us as Christians is life and abundance. No, not fancy cars and vacation homes, but real abundance - loving relationships, healthy vitality, and service filled lives. The devil wants to steal all those things away.

I think when we toss out hot-potato words like "witchcraft" and condemn each other to a horrifying hell for believing such as I do, it can be damaging to our relationship as brothers and sisters. I know I felt attacked by those words, judged and condemned. I took it to Jesus and asked Him to guide me in this, and to be my greatest teacher.

I don't believe my beliefs are about power and control, but instead, about obedience to the will and commands of my Father. I read the word literally, and these are the conclusions I've drawn.

[NorrinRadd]

...
Much of this reminds me of the time I went up to the front for prayer at a church I used to attend. One of the deacons came up to me, and asked me why I came up. I told him about the incurable disease I have and how I want to be healed. He then asked if I ever asked the Lord for healing. I told him yes. He then asked why I was up there? All I need to do is believe it is done and continue to claim the healing that was mine. Then he prayed that I'd have more faith.

I actually sat down feeling condemned rather than encouraged. What he didn't know is it took a ton of courage for me to go up to the front.

How Christlike of them -- to casually snuff out a smoldering wick.

They dare call their critics, "Pharisees" -- but who are the ones to impose unbearable burdens, and not lift a finger to help with them?

They blame the victim for lack of faith -- something Jesus never did. Who did He blame for failure to heal in His name? His apostles.

A deacon like that is unworthy of the role.

[robbymac]

That thread over in the main forum really makes me :cry: .


It's things like that which make me almost believe many of the WoF people aren't even really saved.

I said ALMOST. I take their word for it on these boards.

But to actually go so far as to refuse the prayer of their brethren just because we would ask for God's will to be done and not our own - as Jesus himself taught us to pray - it just really smacks of elitism and pride.

The very idea that our prayers are less effective than theirs because we have a doctrinal disagreement...it's just amazing.

And no matter what they say, it is unloving in the extreme. Like refusing a gift given out of love because it's not the exact gift you were hoping for. It disgusts and saddens me.

Oh God, give me patience.
Well, I've been out of the loop for a few weeks here, so I'm not sure which exact post you're referring to, but sadly, that probably doesn't matter. They all seem to end up in the same bitter place.

But hey! Twenty teenagers in a juvenile prison here in Mexico gave their lives to Jesus last weekend, and the prison is allowing us to do weekly discipleship with them! I'm far more jazzed about what God is doing while leading this YWAM outreach team than in arguing with closed minds in the main forum. :amen:

[Redheadedstepchild]

Well, I've been out of the loop for a few weeks here, so I'm not sure which exact post you're referring to, but sadly, that probably doesn't matter. They all seem to end up in the same bitter place.

But hey! Twenty teenagers in a juvenile prison here in Mexico gave their lives to Jesus last weekend, and the prison is allowing us to do weekly discipleship with them! I'm far more jazzed about what God is doing while leading this YWAM outreach team than in arguing with closed minds in the main forum. :amen:


:clap:

[CrazyforYeshua]

I haven't been around in like, forever. It seems I've missed some things.
It makes me so sad that someone would be arrogant enough to say no to a prayer because of "differences". That would be like me refusing the prayer of someone not yet baptized in the Spirit.
How far from God is that? How far from His teachings about loving the brethren? Wasn't it Yeshua who said they will know you by your love for one another?
Where is that love? it's not there when people say no you can't pray for me because I am better, and more spiritual than you.
How arrogant! How prideful! How hateful!
My God, people, do ya really think it matters? In 100 years from now, when we are all gone, and standing in Heaven, looking into the one face we long to see, is it important who believes what??????
NO! The ONLY thing we must believe, is that we are sinners in need of a Saviour, and Yeshua is the only one. It is He that saves us, raises us up in Heavenly places with Him, there is no other.
To get into arguments is fruitless, but to say no to prayer because of pride and arrogance is reprehensible!!!