Abortion I need help.

[MattBauer4Him]

I know that abortion is wrong. I'm pro-life conservative baptist. However my peers are all pro-choice. I want to show them biblicaly that its wrong and immoral. I can't find verses on it though other than "Thou shalt not will murder" and that doesn't stand up anymore in the arguement . Can anybody help me please??

[mesue]

Exodus 21:22: If men strive, and hurt a woman with child, so that her fruit depart from her, and yet no mischief follow: he shall be surely punished, according as the woman's husband will lay upon him; and he shall pay as the judges determine.
Exodus 21:23: And if any mischief follow, then thou shalt give life for life,
Exodus 21:24: Eye for eye, tooth for tooth, hand for hand, foot for foot,
Exodus 21:25: Burning for burning, wound for wound, stripe for stripe.

And

Matthew 5:21: Ye have heard that it was said by them of old time, Thou shalt not kill; and whosoever shall kill shall be in danger of the judgment:
Matthew 5:22: But I say unto you, That whosoever is angry with his brother without a cause shall be in danger of the judgment: and whosoever shall say to his brother, Raca, shall be in danger of the council: but whosoever shall say, Thou fool, shall be in danger of hell fire.
to start

[MattBauer4Him]

Thanks man. Your a big help.

[Cright]

If your friends are pro-abortion because they believe the fetus isn't yet a baby... here's another angle..

Luke 1:44
43But why am I so favored, that the mother of my Lord should come to me? 44As soon as the sound of your greeting reached my ears, the baby in my womb leaped for joy. 45Blessed is she who has believed that what the Lord has said to her will be accomplished!"

Psalm 139
12 even the darkness will not be dark to you;
the night will shine like the day,
for darkness is as light to you.

13 For you created my inmost being;
you knit me together in my mother's womb.
14 I praise you because I am fearfully and wonderfully made;
your works are wonderful,
I know that full well.

If that doesnt help.. below I copied and pasted a letter from a harvard Dr. and she attached refrences to her e-mail letter. It is answering the question "When does a fetus's heart start beating, and what causes it to start beating?"

Hope all this will help!
C





Hi! Thanks for your question!

During embryonic development, the heart is one of the few organs that must function almost as soon as it is formed. Indeed, the fact that the heart is one of the earliest organs to develop speaks to its importance.

The human heart begins to beat and pump blood through the embryo around day 22 of gestation. The electric stimulus that triggers the muscular portion of the heart, known as the myocardium, to contract is myogenic. This means that the contractions arise spontaneously within the myocardium itself, and propagate from cell to cell. Input from the central nervous system can modify the heart rate (the frequency of heart beats), but it does not initiate beats.

The ability of cardiac myocytes (the cells that comprise the myocardium) to beat is an intrinsic property of these cells. In fact, myocytes removed from the early heart and grown in culture will beat sporadically, and if they become connected to each other, will then begin to beat rhythmically, in unison. As a functional organ, the heart begins to beat very early, even before it has assumed its final form. Interestingly, the heart begins to beat even before structures such as valves and septa (singular: septum; the muscular walls that divide the chambers) have formed! The initial contractions are peristaltic--that is, they proceed in a wave-like fashion along the length of the heart. Later, once the heart has matured and the conduction system has developed, the contractions proceed in an orderly, timed sequence through the different chambers.

Because beating is an intrinsic property of the cardiac myocytes, exactly what causes the heart to begin contracting is essentially a cell biological question. Unfortunately, there is not yet a definite answer to this question. We are beginning to understand how cardiac myocytes are specified very early in development, long before the heart has even formed. And we are learning more about their differentiation--that is, how these cells, which initially are not any different from cells that will give rise to the stomach or to muscles in the arm, develop the characteristics that allow them to contribute to the beating heart. From research in these areas, it is clear that certain things are required in order for the heart to beat. For instance, cardiac myocytes must have contractile proteins, such as actin and myosin (http://www-isu.indstate.edu/thcme/mwking/muscle.html#proteins), that are properly assembled into a scaffold (known as a sarcom ere (http://www-isu.indstate.edu/thcme/mwking/muscle.html#sarcomere)) that allows contraction to take place. In addition, these cells must have specialized structures called gap junctions, which allow them to communicate so they can beat together in a synchronized fashion. Thus, while it is clear that certain elements must be in place for the heart to beat, it is not yet clear what stimuli are responsible for initiating contraction.

I hope this information is useful! Please feel free to contact me if you have any further questions. I have listed below a couple review articles that discuss some aspects of early heart development. They are relatively detailed, but unfortunately, do not discuss much about the heartbeat per se. There is very little, if any, available literature which specifically addresses the onset of cardiac contractility.

Nikki
**davis@fas.harvard.edu

Fishman, M.C. and Chien, K.R. (1997) Fashioning the vertebrate heart: earliest embryonic decisions. Development 124:2099-2117. Mohun, T and Sparrow, D. (1997) Early steps in vertebrate cardiogenesis. Current Opinion in Genetics & Development 7:628-633.

[P_G]

Great information thanks dear sisters.

Let me just add my personal invitation. If you know anyone contemplating an abortion please tell them that if they don't want that baby that Miss Bonnie and I will take it. If they need a place to stay till the baby is born we have room.

Just please don't kill the baby.

Pastor George :wave:

[seebs]

I have often wondered if perhaps the pro-choice and pro-life movements couldn't do a great deal of good by reaching an agreement that members of both groups would actively seek opportunities to adopt babies who might otherwise be aborted.

[Frankie]

Great information thanks dear sisters.

Let me just add my personal invitation. If you know anyone contemplating an abortion please tell them that if they don't want that baby that Miss Bonnie and I will take it. If they need a place to stay till the baby is born we have room.

Just please don't kill the baby.

Pastor George :wave: Amen! This also goes for me and my husband. We have 2 children now but would be more than willing and happy to raise someone elses baby as an alternative to abortion. This is a sincire offer for anyone considering abortion as an option. If anyone considering an abortion is reading this thread, please, I beg you to not kill your baby.

Love in God,
Frankie

[P_G]

Amen! This also goes for me and my husband. We have 2 children now but would be more than willing and happy to raise someone elses baby as an alternative to abortion. This is a sincire offer for anyone considering abortion as an option. If anyone considering an abortion is reading this thread, please, I beg you to not kill your baby.

Love in God,
Frankie



Hey Frankie did anyone ever tell you that you're beautiful?

Signed with Love
Pastor George and Miss Bonnie :wave:

[Frankie]

Hey Frankie did anyone ever tell you that you're beautiful?

Signed with Love
Pastor George and Miss Bonnie :wave:Not in a very long time. Thank you for that pastor George and Miss Bonnie, your words have really warmed my heart. http://smileys.smileycentral.com/cat/23/23_1_14.gif (http://www.smileycentral.com/?partner=ZSzeb001)

[Cright]

Pastor George, Miss Bonnie, Frankie and husband...

I got chills reading your post. That is amazing for you to open your hearts and homes to a child unwanted. I'm so touched to read those words you wrote. I have chills. It speaks volumes to see someone who is willing and able to give an unthought of child life.

God Bless all four of you! You are amazing people! :hug:

[P_G]

Pastor George, Miss Bonnie, Frankie and husband...

I got chills reading your post. That is amazing for you to open your hearts and homes to a child unwanted. I'm so touched to read those words you wrote. I have chills. It speaks volumes to see someone who is willing and able to give an unthought of child life.

God Bless all four of you! You are amazing people! :hug:

Cright

I am not amazing nor the rest it is a very amazing savior that is so amazing!

But I want to give you something OK a special gift
See my heart is open to all people
Oh I know I am really hard on sin but
trust me love is always at the center.

So here is what I want to give you I want to put you on
the path to AMAZINGNESS!

Tommorow you go do one random act of kindness in Jesus name.
Put a quarter in a parking meter
Buy a cup of coffee for the next person in line at the shop
Take out your fellow workers trash for them
Just say some thing really nice to a stranger let them feel loved.
Pray for some one who needs prayer right there in their presence.

It all starts with one act one simple thing that is nice
in Jesus name soon you will be a act of kindness junky
People will wonder what on earth is wrong with you.

Thats when you take the time to tell them what is right with you!
Or more over who has made you right.

And that is the kindess kindness of all !


OK Sunday school lesson over

Lets all sing

Jesus loves the little children
All the children of the world

LOUDER

Red and yellow black and white
They are precious in his sight

Jesus loves the children of the Woooooooorld!


Good!

AMEn

Pastor George

:wave:

[Frankie]

Alright everyone. Now you all have me sitting here with tears rolling down my cheeks, thanking our mighty Lord for such a great family in Christ. I praise God for the fellowship and love that we as believers share.

I feel the need to pop in "Steele Magnolias" and make some "soul food". LOL

God Bless us all!

[P_G]

Alright everyone. Now you all have me sitting here with tears rolling down my cheeks, thanking our mighty Lord for such a great family in Christ. I praise God for the fellowship and love that we as believers share.

I feel the need to pop in "Steele Magnolias" and make some "soul food". LOL

God Bless us all!


May I suggest chocolate ice cream
Not that I understand it but
when Miss Bonnie gets misty like that it seems
to have a soothing effect.

Umm but then the only thing I have learned about
wommen after raising 3 daughters and a wife is that

Women like chocolate


Yupp 4 years in college
4 years in Bible college
MDiv
and thats all I learned about wommen

Sad aint it?


Bless you I am out of here before I start telling you about how much
I love all my special Christian Sisters and how wonderful you all are
and how I am proud of you for being such good role models to all the
young ladies out there. And how you show them they can be charming
and desireable with out dressing like well Brittney Spears.

Gahh I am doing it!

OK I gooooooooooooooooooooooooooooo

Blessings

Pastor George :wave:

[P_G]

Oh

And I am sorry I hijacked the thread let me help set it back on track:

War Dead

Here is the count of Americans lost in

Revolutionary War 26,000
Civil War 600,000
World War I 126,000
World War II 407,306
Korean War 33,629
Vietnam War 57,685

Aborted in the American Holocost 40,872,865

And those figures are a few years old!

Abortion is Murder
G-d Hates Abortion

Something to think about

G-d says:



Lev 18:21 And thou shalt not let any of thy seed pass through the fire to Molech, neither shalt thou profane the name of thy God: I am the LORD.

Do you know how they dispose of most aborted/murdered babies?

They are incinereated!

Give it some thought!

Pastor George
weeping for the preborn :cry:

[GeorgiaGuy]

Your friends are idiots, pure and simple. The fact that they can justify murder shows that they haven't any intellect. Shrug them off for the idiots that they are. They'll come to in time when they realize that you shouldn't base your opinions on what the world says is cool or okay.

[GeorgiaGuy]

Okay, I take that back, don't brush them off. Okay, the misinformed, or logically-challenged, need help to understand that abortion is murder. I'd direct them to websites that detail the reality of abortion. Graphic ones if need be.

[jenptcfan]

I think that many people who favor abortion do so because they do not understand it. Some people do not realize that a fetus has brain waves at 40 days. At 9 weeks, a baby already has his unique fingerprint. Here's a link to a site that shows actual pictures of aborted babies and describes the method used for abortion. It's graphic and sickening, but you can't look at these 'fetuses' and say they're only tissue. They sure look like little people to me!

http://www.holylamb.com/abortion1.htm

If you want to be able to talk to your friends about why you believe abortion is wrong, learn as much about it as possible. Especially partial-birth abortion. (There's a diagram about how it's preformed and it's just terrible--the babies could just as easily be delivered alive and given to an adoptive parent).

How did we get to the point where we think our "right" to choose is worth more than a human life?

[num_me_vexo]

i can understand ur prolife stance and ur friends pro-choice. i take both stances, personally i wouldnt have an abortion but i also think its the parents right to choose. i dont approve of abortion, i believe that life begins at conception but in some circumstances it might be neccesary for the survival of the mother. its a very contraversial topic and it has a lot of gray areas. still, its great to c a young guy who is agaisnt abortion for a change.

[jcright]

i can understand ur prolife stance and ur friends pro-choice. i take both stances, personally i wouldnt have an abortion but i also think its the parents right to choose. i dont approve of abortion, i believe that life begins at conception but in some circumstances it might be neccesary for the survival of the mother. its a very contraversial topic and it has a lot of gray areas. still, its great to c a young guy who is agaisnt abortion for a change.
Interesting comment...if I may, I'd like to add my $.02 worth.

First, let me address the first post...I'm assuming by peers you mean your christian friends. This being the case, I'd like to add one more piece of scripture. This comes from Jeremiah 1:5 (which I personally think is one of the best examples that a baby is alive at conception).

5 "Before I formed you in the womb I knew [1 (http://bible.gospelcom.net/cgi-bin/bible?passage=JER+1&language=english&version=NIV&showfn=on&showxref=on#footnote_165763188_1)] you,
before you were born I set you apart;
I appointed you as a prophet to the nations."

There's another one in Psalms (but I'm blanking on which chapter :doh:) That backs this idea up.

Let's skip back to the previous message. Abortion is definitely a controversial issue. However, I would encourage you (whoever is reading this) to not try to sit on the fence. You are either for God or you are against God. Therefore, if you believe the scriptures, then you should be against abortion. If you are in agreement that abortion is murder but you don't want to get involved, then let me ask this: If you knew that one person was going to murder another person (not fetus, but either a child or an adult), would you stand by and let it happen because it's not your choice but theirs to kill someone else? Don't you think you would be pulled in later by the police for questioning? Don't you think that you would have to stand in front of a judge and explain why you didn't do something to try and stop it? You might even be considered a suspect because you knew and did nothing about it. This is, in essence, what you are suggesting when you say that it is their choice and you do nothing to persuade them otherwise...the difference being that the police will now be God and you'll be answering to Him. Can you stand in front of that judge and say you didn't do anything because its none of your business? As a Christian, I can't understand the choice of pro-choice by other Christians...I have enough sins, I wouldn't want to add murder to the list.

Don't get me wrong, you are absolutely correct. It is their choice to sin against God, however, I believe it is our responsibility to at least try and get them to not sin. If we present our case and they do it anyway, then I don't think we will be judged for their crime. However, I'm quiet certain that if we know and we don't say anything, then we will be judged for it as well. There's a saying that I love "Love the sinner, hate the sin". This is totally the attitude we should be taking. Therefore, in a loving way, we should be reasoning with them against abortion.

One last thing. I always think it's interesting when people throw in the idea of abortion for the sake of the mother's health. Without a doubt that's the toughest decision...take a life to save the other or trust in God. That would be tough to trust God over making your own choice...especially since it would be an emotional choice and one where we would want to spare the mother. Maybe it's easier for me to say because I'm a guy, but instead of aborting the baby for the sake of the mother, I think we should be putting our trust in God...he does, after all, have a plan. Perhaps God will spare both, perhaps He will take both or He will take only one. We won't know until it's over. However, what we do know is that murder is still murder...which means taking the life of the baby for the health of the mother would still be wrong. Sucks don't it?

Let me try and sum up what I'm trying to say (now that I've babbled to no end): Its God's choice, not ours. Don't ever be fooled into thinking otherwise.

[BT]

This is the kind of thread that I've always wanted to see here. I have nothing to add besides ... thanks.



And Pastor George - Shalom

[RED that's ME]

There has been many threads on abortion through CF.
Like several have said here God is the one who gives life who are we to take it? Even when pregnancy occurs in bad circumstances that pregnancy happens God is the one who allowed it to still happen.
Christians need to encourage life physically and spiritually. :angel:

[BT]

There has been many threads on abortion through CF.
Like several have said here God is the one who gives life who are we to take it? Even when pregnancy occurs in bad circumstances that pregnancy happens God is the one who allowed it to still happen.
Christians need to encourage life physically and spiritually. :angel:
Sorry I did not mean about abortion..

[theseed]

Here are my links.

http://www.afterabortion.org/rape.html

http://www.electrosnap.com/abortion/forum/comment_threads.php?postID=95&parentid=93

I have a very graphic abortion site if you would like, I will PM it to who ever wants it.

[num_me_vexo]

i have been told that in some circumstances abortion is an act of self defence because the baby is risking the mothers life and her first priority is to her other children and husband. im curious to hear ur thoughts on that.

[jcright]

i have been told that in some circumstances abortion is an act of self defence because the baby is risking the mothers life and her first priority is to her other children and husband. im curious to hear ur thoughts on that.
I'm a little uncertain as to your implication. Are you stating that abortion can be justified because of instinct?

I hate to beat a dead horse, but here's my opinion (again)...with (hopefully) less babble.

We have many choices in life and they fall in exactly 2 categories, those categories are as follows:
1) To be on the side of God and therefore do his will and follow his laws or
2) Be against God and therefore go against his will and laws.

How do we know what God wants? Well, he's given us his Word in the form of what we call the Holy Bible.

I think, in my last post, that I've made it very clear that abortion is murder. I don't think any of us (on this thread) have been in dispute about that. The question now becomes very simple...is your choice going to fall under category #1 or #2?

Sounds easy doesn't it? I know it's not. Please understand, I'm not trying to belittle the emotional aspect in anyway. If I were in this position, I would hope that I could still reason logically and do what God has commanded us to do instead of falling prey to my instincts and emotions therefore going against God to spare myself and my family from the pain of the loss of the mother. Eh, I know it's a run-on sentence, but I need to wrap this up before I have to go to a meeting:)

I would like to encourage you to try and not justify actions based on situations. Abortion is murder just like a lie is still a lie or a theft is a theft...God may use your choices (whether you choose to sin or not) but he won't condone the sin.

[terry13]

Thank you all for a wonderful thread. It truly brought tears to my eyes.
But let's be sure to remember that God loves those who have committed murder in the past - indeed - he saved Saul.

Here is my story -

Three years ago, one of my college students (non christian) had an abortion her freshman year. She later told me she had also had an abortion in high school.

After it was over she came to speak to me about it. I could tell that her spirit was being convicted. She was riddled with guilt and shame. Truly, she was ready to take her own life. I really had never known the impact that abortion has on the women who receive them until I spoke with this young woman.

Anyway, I did not judge her; I told her God loved her, but the seed, to my knowledge, did not germinate into acceptance of Christ.

Last fall, she came to me talk to me once again, pregnant. What a blessing God granted me to be able to discuss with her the many options open to her other than murder.

Anyway during the midst of the conversation, I blurted out to her that my wife and I would take the child, no questions asked, if that was her choice. I had not even spoken to my wife about it, but knowing my wife's attitude toward abortion and love of children, I knew that she would agree with the decision.

The girl later told me that it was that statement which convinced her to not kill the baby.

Although, eventually, she decided to let her mother & dad (who are Christian) raise the child, the Lord taught me a valuable lesson that day.

Pro-life folks must not just be demonstrators at clinics or preachers behind pulpits. Actually, I think sometimes that can be detrimental to the cause. They must be you and me, willing to accept the responsibility for someone else's mistakes.

After all, isn't that what Christ did for all of us?

Finally, and if this is spam, a moderator may remove it, I feel abortion is too large an issue to stay in one political party. Afterall, at least 90% of the nation will vote democratic or republican in any given election. So w/o endorsing either party, I want to offer people these two links where, perhaps, they can get involved politically.

www.democratsforlife.org

www.rnclife.org

[jcright]

Thank you all for a wonderful thread. It truly brought tears to my eyes.
But let's be sure to remember that God loves those who have committed murder in the past - indeed - he saved Saul. ...
I agree whole heartedly! My apologies if I made it sound otherwise.

[jed]

I know people, people I love very much, who have had abortions. Years later they still cry and anguish over what they have done. They know God forgives them but I don't think they will ever be able to completely forgive themselves. Its a terrible thing.

[conservativerepublican]

some preacher guy on this video gave this list to say whether a baby in the womb is a human or not. S-L-E-D. the first one is size. Is a short person more human than a tall person? no. the second is level of development. Is a ten year old boy more of a human than a forty year old man? no. The third one is enviroment. Is a person more of a human in Wyoming than a person in Georgia? no. The last one is dependency( dont know how to spell). Is a person on incilin( dont know how to spell). more of a human than one who is not. once again no. that proves that a baby that is unborn is still a human. hope this helps.

[pressingon]

If you know anyone considering abortion, encourage them to visit any of the various Christian ministries in your area which offer ultrasounds. If they're not convinced and convicted that the "embryo" or "fetus" developing in the womb is a real, live, human child... well, I can't imagine anyone not being convinced. There is NOTHING that makes that "embryo" or "fetus" suddenly become a "baby" quicker than seeing it, even if it only appears as little more than a dot with a heartbeat.

This is from experience with ultrasounds... my wife and I have just recently seen our second child, at only 6 weeks of pregnancy, and our baby already had a heartbeat! We saw our first child at 12 weeks of pregnancy... you could have counted his fingers and toes had he not been moving around so much!

[eldermike]

What a great thread! I can't add much to this, only this: God's timing is perfect, abortion is the ultimate questing of God's perfect timing. I think that thought alone should be enough to settle the issue with Christians.

[Anti-Fear]

ALSO,
If your "friends" say that the child inside the woman isn't a person because it is connected to her, you can tell them, that it is scientific fact that when a child is conceived it becomes a unique COMBINED DNA, that is a strand of DNA of the father and the mother are combined during the conception.
At that moment it becomes a WHOLE DNA that has enough data to form a child, it is unique in the world, and there is not one like it.

If they say "oh but this is just a body it's not a person, its not formed because it cannot survive without the mother" remind them that some people get into accidents and cannot survive without artificial support. Some fall into coma for years and stuff like that. We don't go around abortion their lives and disconnecting their life support.