Any REAL conservatives?

[Joshua Howard]

Glad to find out that there is a Weslian Forum. However, as it is, it seems that most of the folks here are quite liberal. These days, it seems that most holiness and related Chruches are just as liberal as their non-weslian counterparts. In fact, it seems that they are worse, in that they preach sanctification and perfection, claiming to have it, even while they are far from it. The following ideals apply at my Church:

1. The promotion of movies, and broadcast television is not accepted.

2. Rock and Rap music of all forms, Christian or Non-Christian, is not accepted.

3. Unisex clothing is not considered acceptable... In all possible scenarios, women stay at home.

4. Modernism, Neo-evangelicalism, and all methods of lifestyle, doctrine, or outreach that do not fit a pattern of separatism are rejected.

5. The Authorized King James version of the Bible must be used exclusively for teaching.

6. The ‘once-saved-always-saved’ principle is not accepted.

I already have debated with folks over a number of these issues, and if you don't agree, I am not out to prove you wrong. However, I am interested to know if any of you are on close speaking terms with me on these issues. Thanks.

-Joshua

[Dark_Lite]

Sounds like Puritanism.

I highly, extremely disagree on all points except number 6.

[wonder111]

I don't agree, except 6, same as dark lite

[Plan 9]

Are we going to divide into warring camps here, too? If so, I'd rather know now, because I can't take anymore of that.

[Celticflower]

My views follow the >

Glad to find out that there is a Weslian Forum. However, as it is, it seems that most of the folks here are quite liberal. These days, it seems that most holiness and related Chruches are just as liberal as their non-weslian counterparts. In fact, it seems that they are worse, in that they preach sanctification and perfection, claiming to have it, even while they are far from it. The following ideals apply at my Church:

1. The promotion of movies, and broadcast television is not accepted.

>Yes, there is a lot of trash out there, but a prudent person can find good options.

2. Rock and Rap music of all forms, Christian or Non-Christian, is not >accepted.

>Music is music and a gift of God's creativity. The message is in the lyrics, not the beat or style.

3. Unisex clothing is not considered acceptable... In all possible scenarios, women stay at home.

>Sorry, but long pants on a cold winter day in upstate Ny sounds better than a dress anyday. What difference does clothing make?

4. Modernism, Neo-evangelicalism, and all methods of lifestyle, doctrine, or outreach that do not fit a pattern of separatism are rejected.

>Separatism?? Kinda hard to spread the Gospel if you won't talk to people outside your circle.

5. The Authorized King James version of the Bible must be used exclusively for teaching.

>If the message is the same, does the difference of a word or two here and there really matter? Isn't it more important, especially for the younger people, to read a translation that is understandable for the individual?

6. The ‘once-saved-always-saved’ principle is not accepted.

> But I believe salvation can be reattained. No one is lost forever until the final breath has been breathed.

I already have debated with folks over a number of these issues, and if you don't agree, I am not out to prove you wrong. However, I am interested to know if any of you are on close speaking terms with me on these issues. Thanks.

-Joshua

Joshua, your beliefs are very strict and if they work for you, that is all well and good. However, I don't think I could live under such a legalistic code of conduct.

Respectfully,
Celtie

[bigsierra]

I my aunt's church, they don't allow TV, so she has what's called a "monitor" for which she views, "films," a term not to be confused with movies. When her old "monitor" broke, she got a new one. They took her knob, so she wouldn't be tempted to change to a broadcast channel. The fact that they took her knob has always bothered me. She has come across some great movies...err films I never would have seen without her recommendation.

They also believe they are the one true church.

She also does not cut her hair or wear slacks.

[Joshua Howard]

Sounds to me like their standards are conservative, but forcing it on people? True conservatives are conservative because of the inner work of Christ, not a church body or a rule book.

Our church won't tell condemn a woman for wearing pants or having a TV set. But we do have standards, and we have reasons for our standards. I can certify that there isn't much TV worth watching for the conservative Christian family. I am not going to argue with you on these points, because I know it would probably not convince anyone. I can, however, testify that these points of conservativism are not empty. As I said initially, I'm not really out to debate.

And to CelticFlower, regarding the re-attainment of Salvation, I do believe that the state of whole sanctification can be lost and reattained. However, if a person blaitantly turns from enlightenment through Jesus Christ, there is no more hope for that soul. If you disagree with me on this point, I would ask you to explain the following scriptural passage:

Heb 6:4 For it is impossible for those who were once enlightened, and have tasted of the heavenly gift, and were made partakers of the Holy Ghost,
Heb 6:5 And have tasted the good word of God, and the powers of the world to come,
Heb 6:6 If they shall fall away, to renew them again unto repentance; seeing they crucify to themselves the Son of God afresh, and put him to an open shame.

[bigsierra]

What does it take to "fall away?" anger, pride, lust greed?

Are you saying a "conservative" christian doesn't get unrightously angry? At what point does God, cut you off?

[Dark_Lite]

My personal take on the above verses would be as follows:

Those who have truly fallen away and who are very stubborn against Christianity will not be renewed to repentance. With your church's interpretation it seems you override God's desire that all men come to him in the end.

That's just my take on it though.

[elanor]

...In all possible scenarios, women stay at home.
Could you please explain what you mean by this? Do you mean women should stay home and raise children, not be involved in a job or career? I'm just unclear on what you are saying. Thank you.

[dsdumpling]

6. The ‘once-saved-always-saved’ principle is not accepted.

I agree with this one.

[Celticflower]

My personal take on the above verses would be as follows:

Those who have truly fallen away and who are very stubborn against Christianity will not be renewed to repentance. With your church's interpretation it seems you override God's desire that all men come to him in the end.

That's just my take on it though.



That is what I was gonna say, but you did a better job than I would have. :clap:

Celtie

[premilldispensationalist]

3. Unisex clothing is not considered acceptable... In all possible scenarios, women stay at home. I agree :clap:

4. Modernism, Neo-evangelicalism, and all methods of lifestyle, doctrine, or outreach that do not fit a pattern of separatism are rejected. I agree! :clap:

5. The Authorized King James version of the Bible must be used exclusively for teaching. I agree! :clap:

6. The ‘once-saved-always-saved’ principle is not accepted. I disagree! :cry:

[overnight]

3. Unisex clothing is not considered acceptable... In all possible scenarios, women stay at home. I agree :clap:

4. Modernism, Neo-evangelicalism, and all methods of lifestyle, doctrine, or outreach that do not fit a pattern of separatism are rejected. I agree! :clap:

5. The Authorized King James version of the Bible must be used exclusively for teaching. I agree! :clap:

6. The ‘once-saved-always-saved’ principle is not accepted. I disagree! :cry:
Can you enter Biblical proof that these are beilives that should be held. For example the KJV of the Bible come on people it is just a translation of the latin Bible which is a translation of hebrew, Aramic, and Greek. The writers of the KJV went to the Latin texts of these instead of the original manuscipts so they are less acurate. Secound women should be treated as equals and Jesus modled this with the woman at the well, the woman who would have been stoned, the woman who touched his garment and the list goes on... Finally we are on this world period we do not have to be part of it but to reach out to the people you need to use every peice of artillary you have.

[Texas Lynn]

I generally do not agree with the views set forth in the initial post.

None of it seems very "Weslayan/Methodist"-seems almost Amish. Not that there's anything wrong with that, though I understand some of these sects permit youth to have what is called a "fling" where they go into the city and consider leaving the sects; but those that do are cut off from family and friends. The last part seems extreme. However there is beauty in acceptance of the sects' tenets as well: it recalls Donna Minkowitz's phrase "Nothing can take away the beauty of the 'other', but nothing can take away the danger of the 'other' as well". The concept reminds me of a Disney movie in the early 1960s called, I believe, The Trouble With Angels. In it, Haley Mills-kind of a Hillary Duff for Baby Boomers-played a 'bad girl' in a Catholic orphanage. It was full of youthful pranks and hijinks. At the end she decided to become a nun. At first I was like, [i]"What??? Oh, no, Haley, don't do it!" but then I realized the beauty of that decision. Such decisions, however, are not for everyone, nor will they ever likely be for many to any great extent.

[herev]

I voted no. I do agree with number 6, but there is more to the story than simply not believing in once saved always saved. I believe salvation is based on faith, you can lose your faith, and thus not be saved. But God is not an Indian-giver. He will not give a free gift and then take it away. There is therefore now, no condemnation for those who are in Christ Jesus (Rom. 8:1).
As to the rest, not a chance

[premilldispensationalist]

For example the KJV of the Bible come on people it is just a translation of the latin Bible which is a translation of hebrew, Aramic, and Greek.

The KJV is the bible that is closest to the original and no noncanonised texts were used for transalation. Unlike the NIV!

Secound women should be treated as equals and Jesus modled this with the woman at the well, the woman who would have been stoned, the woman who touched his garment and the list goes on...

Women are equals however God has stated explicitly that they cannot preach, teach or become elders. That their highest calling is to have children and a housewife. I DO NOT consider a woman who is a housewife to be pathetic as society does, I consider them to be great, as God does!

Finally we are on this world period we do not have to be part of it but to reach out to the people you need to use every peice of artillary you have.

We must evangelise however we need proper doctrine not wishy washy liberalism.

[wvmtnkid]

Just a little mod reminder-

If you are not of the Wesleyan tradition, you are free to post in fellowship posts in this forum as we want to encourage fellowship with all our brothers and sisters in Christ. However, you will refrain from debating doctrinal issues if you are outside of the Wesleyan tradition.

Thanks! :)

[honeylight]

To the author of this thread: Its "Wesleyan." What "the kid" said. Would you mind taking your KJV argument to another thread? Thanks.

[ClementofRome]

If that is what it takes to be saved....I am doomed.

Thank God for grace.

[overnight]

It is hard to see it but I know that this sort of leagalism still exsists. We put so many rules on people they often feel they can not live up to them so they just don't try. It is leagalism like this that makes people not want to go to church. Where is love? Where is forgivness? Where is grace? Is this not what Jesus tought? Was it not Jesus who taught us that Rules and the following of those rules is not what makes it possible for us to get to heaven? Did not Jesus teach, faith and grace? I say that being conservative is one thing but when you venture into leagalism you are treading on thin ice. If a person chooses to use a Bible version that is much easier to read and understand is that a sin? No. It is getting the message that is important. I am not just talking about NIV either there are so many good translations out there: NRSV, CEV, NEV, and the list goes on.


What I think I'm going to boil this down to tonight is that faith is what saves us not works so that no man may boast.
I agree with a statement made by someone else that God for grace.

[Rebirth In Flames]

Women are equals however God has stated explicitly that they cannot preach, teach or become elders. That their highest calling is to have children and a housewife. I DO NOT consider a woman who is a housewife to be pathetic as society does, I consider them to be great, as God does!


I have to note on this one because I see it all too often when churches take this to the extreme... I assume that you are using 1 Timothy 2:12 for your justification? If that's the case:

Paul was very likely prohibiting the Ephesian women, not all women, from preaching. (see 2:9-15).. aside from this verse to put things in context here, he did in fact commend women within the church who held leadership roles, (i.e. Phoebe, Mary, Tryphena, Tryphosa, Euodia, and Syntyche). In 1 Corinthians 11:5 Paul comments on women publicly praying and prophesizing.. however the women in the Ephesian church seemed to be abusing their power in the church and their new-found freedom in Christ. Because these women were new converts, they did not yet have the necessary experience, knowledge, or Christian maturity to teach those who already had extensive Scriptural experience.

[Rebirth In Flames]

God has stated explicitly that they cannot preach
Be careful saying that, there is not scriptural backing for this except that one line that Paul told the ladies in Ephesia. God didn’t say it, Paul did… and it wasn’t explicit if you look at the surrounding scripture and take into account the historical reasoning behind it, as you should always do with any scripture… be like the Bareans and take this into account through studying the bible as a whole and making sure that you keep it in context. That’s a Wesleyan principle, I’m surprised you’re not putting it into practice.

[Filia Mariae]

3. Unisex clothing is not considered acceptable... In all possible scenarios, women stay at home.

Hi Joshua:wave:

I'm just wondering, do you mean that if at all possible a woman should not work outside the home, or do you mean that they literally need to stay at home all the time?:confused:

[stofo]

Joshua,

Jesus was not a conservative. Furthermore, there is no Biblical support for using just the KJV or for not watching movies.

[Texas Lynn]

Women are equals however God has stated explicitly that they cannot preach, teach or become elders.
We do not go along with institutionalized sexism like this in the UMC. God said zero on the topic. We ordain women, as well we should, and will continue to do so.

We must evangelise however we need proper doctrine not wishy washy liberalism.
Liberalism takes much courage and is anything but "wishy washy". We stand firm for human rights and the advancement of human progress. We have no use for political correctness that would exclude some from the Body of Christ.

[PaladinGirl]

No, sorry, I don't agree. Here is how I differ from you:

1. The promotion of movies, and broadcast television is not accepted.
Movies and broadcast television is not necessarily promoted but is allowed. However, discretion is encouraged.

2. Rock and Rap music of all forms, Christian or Non-Christian, is not accepted.
Just about all music is accepted but once again, discretion is encouraged.

3. Unisex clothing is not considered acceptable... In all possible scenarios, women stay at home.
Unisex clothing is perfectly fine. I don't understand the part about women staying at home though.

4. Modernism, Neo-evangelicalism, and all methods of lifestyle, doctrine, or outreach that do not fit a pattern of separatism are rejected.
Not sure what this means either.

5. The Authorized King James version of the Bible must be used exclusively for teaching.
Just about all modern Bible versions are accepted.

6. The ‘once-saved-always-saved’ principle is not accepted.

The 'once-saved-always-saved' principle/doctrine is something I am divided on.

I already have debated with folks over a number of these issues, and if you don't agree, I am not out to prove you wrong. However, I am interested to know if any of you are on close speaking terms with me on these issues. Thanks.
Looks like we disagree on just about everything that you listed here but I would be interested in talking to you on an instant messenger sometime to discuss these things. I may disagree but I am a very friendly person.

[nicks17]

Joshua Howard,
In your original post you said the following: "In fact, it seems that they are worse, in that they preach sanctification and perfection, claiming to have it, even while they are far from it." It seems you have been mis-informed about the Wesleyan tradition. Wesley believed, as I do, that as Christians we should strive for perfection and could reach it. However, to say that we claim to have perfection just by merely being in the Wesleyan tradition is wrong. I hope this helps clear up a misunderstanding you might have about our beliefs.
God Bless,
Nick

[jlujan69]

Glad to find out that there is a Weslian Forum. However, as it is, it seems that most of the folks here are quite liberal. These days, it seems that most holiness and related Chruches are just as liberal as their non-weslian counterparts. In fact, it seems that they are worse, in that they preach sanctification and perfection, claiming to have it, even while they are far from it. The following ideals apply at my Church:

1. The promotion of movies, and broadcast television is not accepted.

2. Rock and Rap music of all forms, Christian or Non-Christian, is not accepted.

3. Unisex clothing is not considered acceptable... In all possible scenarios, women stay at home.

4. Modernism, Neo-evangelicalism, and all methods of lifestyle, doctrine, or outreach that do not fit a pattern of separatism are rejected.

5. The Authorized King James version of the Bible must be used exclusively for teaching.

6. The ‘once-saved-always-saved’ principle is not accepted.

I already have debated with folks over a number of these issues, and if you don't agree, I am not out to prove you wrong. However, I am interested to know if any of you are on close speaking terms with me on these issues. Thanks.

-Joshua
For what it's worth, I agree with you on pt. #1 insofar as churches promoting movie and television viewing (precious little on t.v. is fit for watching IMHO) and entirely on#6. On #2, it just depends on the music and lyrics themselves. On #3, ALL are to dress modestly and in a way honoring to God--so no, I don't agree. Pt.#4, I'm not sure what you mean. Pt. #5, I do share concerns about the newer versions lacking certain key verses found in KJV, but I'm not KJV only.

[Jennifer615]

It is hard to see it but I know that this sort of leagalism still exsists. We put so many rules on people they often feel they can not live up to them so they just don't try. It is leagalism like this that makes people not want to go to church. Where is love? Where is forgivness? Where is grace? Is this not what Jesus tought? Was it not Jesus who taught us that Rules and the following of those rules is not what makes it possible for us to get to heaven? Did not Jesus teach, faith and grace? I say that being conservative is one thing but when you venture into leagalism you are treading on thin ice. If a person chooses to use a Bible version that is much easier to read and understand is that a sin? No. It is getting the message that is important. I am not just talking about NIV either there are so many good translations out there: NRSV, CEV, NEV, and the list goes on.


What I think I'm going to boil this down to tonight is that faith is what saves us not works so that no man may boast.
I agree with a statement made by someone else that God for grace.

I think you are right on the money there, Overnight! This kind of legalism repels people from God! I don't believe that God is like that. He loves us and want to see us saved.

I have had some horrible experiences with conservative Christians because I am divorced and remarried. Some people actually said I had to leave my husband and either be single for the rest of my life, or try and reconsole with my ex!!!!!!!!!!! Would you believe that!!!!! What good could possibly come out of breaking up a family and tearing two loving children away from their father!!!!!!!!! I was considering backsliding, as I could never live up to those standards, till I was put right by real Christians.