Commentary on Lutheran Wisdom

[JVAC]

Could this also be a quote forum? One can never have too many quotes!!

-James

[ChiRho]

Could this also be a quote forum? One can never have too many quotes!!

-James

Sure!

[JVAC]

Was that Charlie Brown? ;)

-James

[Rechtgläubig]

Bwahaha! ^_^

[ByzantineDixie]

Instead, faith is God's work in us, that changes us and gives
new birth from God. (John 1:13). It kills the Old Adam and makes us
completely different people. It changes our hearts, our spirits,
our thoughts and all our powers. It brings the Holy Spirit with
it. Yes, it is a living, creative, active and powerful thing, this
faith. Faith cannot help doing good works constantly. It doesn't
stop to ask if good works ought to be done, but before anyone
asks, it already has done them and continues to do them without
ceasing. Anyone who does not do good works in this manner is an
unbeliever.
-Martin Luther


OK...I could use a little help with this one. I don't know about you but I do not constantly go about doing good works and continue to do them without ceasing. In fact, sometimes I know there is a good work to do and I opt to spend my time on-line instead--I see this as rejecting what the Holy Spirit is enabling me to do. According to this message though, I am an unbeliever??? :confused: And...by this defnition I haven't met one single true believer yet!!! So what is Luther trying to say here?

Isn't our influence in the sanctification process similar as it is in justification. We do not bring ourselves to Christ or bring ourselves to do and carry out good works...this is the work of the Holy Spirit, but we can reject, fail to do the good work, right?

Thanks

Rose

[theologia crucis]

The only good works we do are forgiven works...

[ByzantineDixie]

The only good works we do are forgiven works...

So you are speaking from the "works" we do...not works done by the Spirit through us and indeed the works "we" do need forgiveness. Am I correct in interpreting what you wrote?

But what about the works the Spirit does? Can we not impede them...in essence reject the Spirit? I guess I am more apt to say such rejection is not a matter of unbelief so much as it is a matter of our sinful nature.

Help me see what Luther is saying. Thanks-----R

[JMRE5150]

Faith is a living, bold trust in God's grace, so certain of
God's favor that it would risk death a thousand times trusting in it.
Such confidence and knowledge of God's grace makes you happy,
joyful and bold in your relationship to God and all creatures. The
Holy Spirit makes this happen through faith. Because of it, you
freely, willingly and joyfully do good to everyone, serve
everyone, suffer all kinds of things, love and praise the God who
has shown you such grace. Thus, it is just as impossible to
separate faith and works as it is to separate heat and light from
fire! Therefore, watch out for your own false ideas and guard
against good-for-nothing gossips, who think they're smart enough
to define faith and works, but really are the greatest of fools.
Ask God to work faith in you, or you will remain forever without
faith, no matter what you wish, say or can do.

-Martin LutherTo me, this is the most important part of the writings. If I may take liberty, I'll highlight these words:
Because of it, you
freely, willingly and joyfully do good to everyone
Do we do this? Are we actually doing this? I cant count how many times our differnces as Lutherans and Protestants we don't live up to these words we hold so dear. Maybe we do, but to their fullest?
serve everyone, suffer all kinds of things, love and praise the God who
has shown you such grace
Do we? Ask yourself this question the next time you drive by someone with a grocery bag from the local supermarket, who is walking, instead of driving, like you are
Therefore, watch out for your own false ideas and guard
against good-for-nothing gossips, who think they're smart enough
to define faith and works, but really are the greatest of fools
I guess this is what I struggle with the most...especially with theology. I'm a student in Seminary, and yet everytime I agrue the theology of what I believe, I wonder if I'm wasting my time, and missing the bigger picture. After all, when we ascend, will all this theological knowledge get you a better seat closer to Jesus? I doubt it. Sometimes even these boards trouble me, as I sometimes question why I even bother proclaiming MY personal beliefs with doctrine. Does Jesus care if you have certain beliefs, or just that you believed???
Ask God to work faith in you, or you will remain forever without
faith, no matter what you wish, say or can do.
My exact point...think about what you agrue/debate over, and question if we, as human beings trapped in sin even have A CLUE as to what we seek. Just seek his forgiveness, all else is so trivial we as humans can't even comprehend what the importance is. Do your best to do His work...caring, feeling, suffering with the weak, and meager. Thats what Jesus did, and EXACTLY what God loves you for.
Man-made doctrine can sometimes be distraction from Jesus' works and intentions for us. Did Jesus ever charge us with making sure we get it ALL right? No. He said "See what I do? Do it to all" Not "Debate me until you lose sight of what I actually even came here in human form for".
See? If you close your eyes long enough, or close your mind hard enough, you may miss the entire intention of the Gospels.
Don't wish for more than was written.
see, no matter what I believe, I always come back to the most important lines Jesus ever spoke:
Love each other, as I have loved you
He never said "Only if they agree with you."


My .o2 cents

Robb

[ByzantineDixie]

I guess this is what I struggle with the most...especially with theology. I'm a student in Seminary, and yet everytime I agrue the theology of what I believe, I wonder if I'm wasting my time, and missing the bigger picture. After all, when we ascend, will all this theological knowledge get you a better seat closer to Jesus? I doubt it. Sometimes even these boards trouble me, as I sometimes question why I even bother proclaiming MY personal beliefs with doctrine. Does Jesus care if you have certain beliefs, or just that you believed???

Actually when I was studying my doctrine class last year I was told the class was supposed to bring us closer to God and strengthen our relationship with him...but I didn't see that either. What it did do was give me a better foundation with which to lead adult bible study. So I can relate a bit to what you are saying.


Ask God to work faith in you, or you will remain forever without
faith, no matter what you wish, say or can do.
My exact point...think about what you agrue/debate over, and question if we, as human beings trapped in sin even have A CLUE as to what we seek. Just seek his forgiveness, all else is so trivial we as humans can't even comprehend what the importance is. Do your best to do His work...caring, feeling, suffering with the weak, and meager. Thats what Jesus did, and EXACTLY what God loves you for. Man-made doctrine can sometimes be distraction from Jesus' works and intentions for us. Did Jesus ever charge us with making sure we get it ALL right? No. He said "See what I do? Do it to all" Not "Debate me until you lose sight of what I actually even came here in human form for".
See? If you close your eyes long enough, or close your mind hard enough, you may miss the entire intention of the Gospels.
Don't wish for more than was written.
see, no matter what I believe, I always come back to the most important lines Jesus ever spoke:

Please do not get frustrated with me. I do see how that all this theological discussion takes our eyes off the things we are called to do as part of the Body. But I am really struggling right now with being a Lutheran. This whole area of works as some Lutherans talk about them seems to be muddied to me and I am trying to get some clarity.

My understanding is that the Spirit will lead us to do good works. I am not talking about works done outside of faith, to earn salvation or to make points with God. And work is defined as anything from doing bible study to going on a mission to fixing a meal for a shut-in. Any work we do (as led by the Spirit) will be imperfect (we'll do less than should be done, or do the work with improper motives, etc.) but God can use our imperfect works. Sometimes (many times?) we do not do the work we are being led to do. But over time, the Spirit will work in us (via the means of grace, as we study the Word and participate in the Sacrament) such that we reject His leading less and less...hence sanctification?

Luther had unkind and ugly words for people who did not properly understand sanctification. (So much so that at times I think he forgot that the goal of sound doctrine is love! 1 Tim 1) Sometimes I see those ugly words directed straight toward me.

So...please help me. Is my understanding of works faulty? Should we not be concerned about those good works we reject doing?

Thanks-----R

[ChiRho]

OK...I could use a little help with this one. I don't know about you but I do not constantly go about doing good works and continue to do them without ceasing. In fact, sometimes I know there is a good work to do and I opt to spend my time on-line instead--I see this as rejecting what the Holy Spirit is enabling me to do. According to this message though, I am an unbeliever??? And...by this defnition I haven't met one single true believer yet!!! So what is Luther trying to say here?

Isn't our influence in the sanctification process similar as it is in justification. We do not bring ourselves to Christ or bring ourselves to do and carry out good works...this is the work of the Holy Spirit, but we can reject, fail to do the good work, right?


"But others make a detour and purposely, as it were, avoid Christ, so do they put off approaching Him with the text. As for me, when I have a text that is like a nut with a hard shell, I immediately dash it against the Rock and find the sweetest kernel."

-Martin Luther

Rose,

I think the best way to understand Luther's words, is to use the same advice he offers to understand difficult passages in Holy Scripture.

Instead, faith is God's work in us, that changes us and gives
new birth from God. (John 1:13). It kills the Old Adam and makes us
completely different people. It changes our hearts, our spirits,
our thoughts and all our powers. It brings the Holy Spirit with
it. Yes, it is a living, creative, active and powerful thing, this
faith. Faith cannot help doing good works constantly. It doesn't
stop to ask if good works ought to be done, but before anyone
asks, it already has done them and continues to do them without
ceasing. Anyone who does not do good works in this manner is an
unbeliever. He stumbles around and looks for faith and good
works, even though he does not know what faith or good works are.
Yet he gossips and chatters about faith and good works with many
words.
Luther is speaking of those who seek to justify themselves by the Law. Ofcourse, everyone fails at doing works as they should, but the faith in Christ keeps the Law perfectly. Why? Because we are justified by Christ, and His perfect obedience. Luther is distinuishing, true works proceeding from true faith, and all false alternatives. Faith works perfectly, while the sinner continually rebels. The key is understanding that true faith produces true works, faith cannot fail, but, as Christians, we do. Emphasis is put directly on the work and will of God, not on sinful man. This is why repentance and confession should be constant, not just when we really sin! The opposition, or the unbelievers, that Luther is speaking of, is not the failing but faithful Christians, but those who direct their confidence inward, and falsely trust their feeble attempts at justifying themselves with their works.

Let me know if this sheds any light!

Pax Christi,

ChiRho

[ByzantineDixie]

Yes, if Luther is talking about works done to attain justification the line about unbelievers makes PERFECT sense...what bothered me was this:

Faith cannot help doing good works constantly. It doesn't
stop to ask if good works ought to be done, but before anyone
asks, it already has done them and continues to do them without
ceasing.

I see this saying that if I have faith all these good works are done by the Spirit through me all the time, without ceasing, without my resistence. Nah...that ain't happenin'. So...if these good works aren't flowing, without ceasing, then, do I have faith?

Well, I am not going to be so crazy as to let satan take me there...but it just struck a raw nerve this morning.

If I weren't on this stupid diet I'd have a beer right now to bring this to a proper close but instead I'll have to settle for a diet coke (in the South its ALL coke, even if its Sprite!) and fat free cookies...hmmm yum. :rolleyes:

Thanks all-----R

[ChiRho]

I thought that any comments about any quotes, homilies (sermons), articles, etc. could be posted here. This way, the posts in Words of Lutheran Wisdom, can be read without interruption.

Pax Christi,

ChiRho

[ChiRho]

Assert Yourself When Loyalty to the Word Is Endangered
People speak of two kinds of humility: one which we are said to owe when doctrine and faith are concerned, the other when love toward our neighbor is concerned. But may God never grant me humility when ther articles of faith are concerned. For then no action is called for which is a yielding for the sake of love, for the sake of peace and unity, for the sake of keeping the church from being ruined, or for the love of the imperial majesty. THe fanatics and sectarians are complaining about us as though no humility and love were found among us. But we reply: First abolish the Word, doctrine, and faith; for in these matters we will not budge a handbreadth though heaven and earth were to fall because of our firmness. For the Word does not belong to me; neither do Baptism and the Lord's Supper belong to me. God has reserved these for Himself and has said: You are to teach this way! I cannot pass this injuction by. Therefore your will must yield. But when we speak like this, they say that we are proud people. In reality, however, this is true humility. God has commanded us to take this attitude. We are to connive at no omissions from His Word.


But come, touch on a matter that concerns love. If I then do not humble myself before you and do not bear injuries that are inflicted upon me, if I the do not yield what is mine and God has given me, if I then do not forgive you and wash your feet, then you may rebuke me... By the grace of God we would be glad to lie at the feet of everybody if only the Word of God remained pure and people did not inerfere with God's affairs. Then men would find us humble and patient as any sheep may be. We have been of greater service to them than they have been to us. Still they say we are proud and cannot love the brethren or pardon anything in them, that when enrage us, we can neither forgive nor forget. The devil thanks you for saying this. I should grant you what is not mine? If only my finger or my body were conserned, you would find me ready to serve you promptly. But neither my coat nor my body is at stake; rather we are expected to yield in God's affairs. This we find impossible to do.


- Martin Luther

Ahhh! It is great to have Lotar back!

[JMRE5150]

Split the Commentary thread away from the "Words of Lutheran Wisdom" thread at ChiRho's request.

Please place any comments about the "Words of Lutheran Wisdom" thread in here.

I will be watching these comments closely to make sure they remain somewhat civilized.

Robb

[ChiRho]

Split the Commentary thread away from the "Words of Lutheran Wisdom" thread at ChiRho's request.

Please place any comments about the "Words of Lutheran Wisdom" thread in here.

I will be watching these comments closely to make sure they remain somewhat civilized.

Robb

The Irony!

A "somewhat civilized" thread created by a barbarian! I doubt I am qualified to ever post on here again!? :D

Thanks JM!!


Pax Christi,

ChiRho

[ChiRho]

Some one sent to know whether it was permissible to use warm water in baptism? The Doctor replied: "Tell the blockhead that water, warm or cold, is water." (Table Talk)

LOL! Really...I am not just saying that....I exploded with laughter! Great quote Recht!

[ChiRho]

...I am bound, not only to assert, but to defend the truth with my blood and death. I want to believe freely and be a slave to the authority of no one, whether council, university, or pope. I will confidently confess what appears to me to be true, whether it has been asserted by a Catholic or a heretic, whether it has been approved or reproved by a council.
--Martin Luther




Better than Mel Gibson's battle cry "FREEEEEEDOM!!"

After our daily Scripture readings, our daily Catechism readings, our prayers for forgiveness and peace have been read, meditated upon, retained, confessed and trusted....these quotes (among others) should be read, remembered and believed.

This battle never ceases!

Be as equally relentless in this, the battle for Truth!

Pax Christi,

ChiRho

[ChiRho]

"Who shall separate us from the love of Christ? Could oppression, or anguish, or persecution, or famine, or nakedness, or peril, or sword? No, in all these things, we are more than conquerors through him who loved us. For I am persuaded, that neither death, nor life, nor angels, nor principalities, nor things present, nor things to come, nor powers, nor height, nor depth, nor any other creature, will be able to separate us from the love of God, which is in Christ Jesus our Lord."
-St. Paul's Letter to the Romans

...great sig, UberLutheran!

Pax Christi,

ChiRho

[ChiRho]

Cheap grace is the preaching of forgiveness without requiring repentance, baptism without church discipline, Communion without confession, absolution without personal confession. Cheap grace is grace without discipleship, grace without the cross, grace without Jesus Christ, living and incarnate.

Costly grace is the treasure hidden in the field; for the sake of it a man will gladly go and sell all that he has. It is the pearl of great price to buy which the merchant will sell all his goods. It is the kingly rule of Christ, for whose sake man will pluck out the eye which causes him to stumble; it is the call of Jesus Christ at which the disciple leaves his nets and follows him.

Costly grace is the gospel which must be sought again and again, the gift which must be asked for, the door at which a man must knock.

Such grace is costly because it calls us to follow, and it is grace because it calls us to follow Jesus Christ. It is costly because it costs a man his life, and it is grace because it gives a man the only true life. It is costly because it condemns sin, and grace because it justifies the sinner. Above all, it is costly because it cost God the life of his Son: "ye were bought at a price," and what has cost God much cannot be cheap for us. Above all, it is grace because God did not reckon his Son too dear a price to pay for our life, but delivered him up for us. Costly grace is the Incarnation of God.

I think that this smells of Pietism. Grace is Grace. There is no greater Grace and lesser Grace. Their is only forgiveness for wretched sinners, we cannot merit a "better" Grace by our actions, thoughts, or words. If I have understood this correctly, this sounds like Roman Catholicism.

ps. James, really I am not trying to pick on you!

Pax Christi,

ChiRho

[ByzantineDixie]

James indicates that Dietrich Bonhoffer, the Lutheran pastor who conspired to assassinate Hitler in WWII, wrote this. Bonhoffer was eventually discovered by the Nazi's and killed.

I agree that on the surface it sounds akin to what you would call Pietism...could it be because Bonhoffer was attempting to justify his opposition to the Nazi's (as a German, his governing authority)? Could be Lutheranism was taught differently then? Anyone know? Anyone have any ideas?

Peace

Rose

[SPALATIN]

James indicates that Dietrich Bonhoffer, the Lutheran pastor who conspired to assassinate Hitler in WWII, wrote this. Bonhoffer was eventually discovered by the Nazi's and killed.

I agree that on the surface it sounds akin to what you would call Pietism...could it be because Bonhoffer was attempting to justify his opposition to the Nazi's (as a German, his governing authority)? Could be Lutheranism was taught differently then? Anyone know? Anyone have any ideas?

Peace

Rose
I believe that Bonhoeffer was a product of the Prussion Union of Lutheran and Presbyterian churches in which he did not preach specifically Lutheran doctrine and often believed in unity of the protestant churches so therefore he was liberal in his faith to that extent.

He was arrested by Hitler's SS because of a supposed threat made on Hitler's life by Bonhoeffer and others who believed that Hitler was the Anti-Christ.

[JVAC]

I think that this smells of Pietism. Grace is Grace. There is no greater Grace and lesser Grace. Their is only forgiveness for wretched sinners, we cannot merit a "better" Grace by our actions, thoughts, or words. If I have understood this correctly, this sounds like Roman Catholicism.

ps. James, really I am not trying to pick on you!

Pax Christi,

ChiRhoThe book basically is talking about "Theologia Gloria" vs. "Theologia Crucis". Theologia Gloria = "cheap grace" that is the christian doctrine isn't rightly taught. Theologia Crucis = "costly grace" the gospel is rightly taught. I guess out of the Co-text of the book it isn't as much as a bomb, but I think it is a great quote, and I found more today! :D *Wonders if he should post it* :scratch:

-James

[Lotar]

Bonhoffer did have some quite liberal and pietist theology.

Though this quote does sound pietist, I think he does have a point, especially in this culture, where we always seek to only do what we have to.

[JVAC]

Bonhoffer did have some quite liberal and pietist theology.

Though this quote does sound pietist, I think he does have a point, especially in this culture, where we always seek to only do what we have to.
Can you define Pietist?

-James

[JVAC]

Could be Lutheranism was taught differently then?
To coin a popular evangelical line "Lutheranism: the same yesterday, today and tomorrow". Confessional Churches aren't very easy to change and usually don't, sorta reminds me of that one joke, "How many Lutherans does it take to change a light bulb? Change?" (It was in an email, it had a bunch of other religions in there too, pretty funny, Catholics-candles, Quakers-What?, Baptists- form seven councils and discuss it, etc.)

-James

[Lotar]

Can you define Pietist?

-James
General emphasis on personal piety as the point of Christianity, emphasis on individuals over church, confusing the Law and Gospel, etc., while downplaying doctrine and orthodoxy.

[ByzantineDixie]

I believe that Bonhoeffer was a product of the Prussion Union of Lutheran and Presbyterian churches in which he did not preach specifically Lutheran doctrine and often believed in unity of the protestant churches so therefore he was liberal in his faith to that extent.



Scott, this is exactly what I wondered. Unfortunately I did not have time this morning to pose the question properly and that little rascal in me had to pose the question such that it raised some eyebrows, 'eh? Lutheranism changing!!! James, you must have had fun with that! :D

I don't know much about Lutheranism in Europe during these times...I sure am hope Theo will educate us? (hint, hint?)

Quite honestly the topic of pietism is of interest to me right now. I am trying to find the line in the sand...what is pietism and what is OK? The line is very fuzzy for me. Then again...there are those who think pietism is OK (not so much here, I realize! ;) )...so much to digest and sort...... :confused:

Peace

Rose

[ByzantineDixie]

*Wonders if he should post it* :scratch:

-James

You know what James...of all the people who post here, I admire you for your ability to post what may be considered controversial and to defend your position graciously. If we get to the point that we can't share something we like because we are afraid of backlash then this becomes a sad place to play. (Bold words from someone who on more than one occasion has held back for fear of the reaction others would have! :sorry: )

If everyone will use 2 Tim 2:24 - 25 as our guide...we can all post without concern and learn in the process.

Love y'all

Rose

[theologia crucis]

I wish I know more about Lutheran history (hint taken!).

But, from what little I know, after the Formula of Concord (1580), there was a period of about 200 years of Lutheran orthodoxy. But in the 1700's, the Lutheran dogmaticians had so rigidly set down Biblical Lutheran doctrine that they had lost some of the practical application to daily life, a point where Luther himself truly excelled. That's where the pietism kind of set in, where people wanted to "feel more holy".

Also came the "Enlightenment", where people thought that there should be progress, in social circles and in theology, etc. Theologians started questioning the Scriptures, Darwin came along, etc.

Also in Germany, the nationalism really started to gain ground, and in the 1870's or so, a union was forged between (I believe) Calvinistic Prussia and generally Lutheran Germany. And since separation of church and state did not exist, the Prussian leader forced the two state churches together (unionism; part of the reason the LCMS is so leary of it), and both lost there distinctive teachings and eventually started teaching the "social gospel" instead of THE GOSPEL.

The only true, historic Lutheran churches left in Germany were the Free Lutheran churches. And many orthodox pastors and groups were forced out. For example, many Wends came to Texas and settled in Lee County so they could practice confessional Lutheranism without being attacked or forced to convert to the union churches.

BTW, I believe the official name of the union church that was formed is the Evangelical and Reformed Church, and is a denomination that is with us today, even here in the States.

And if I am wrong on any point, please correct me. But I think I am generally close to what happened.

And Rose, I think you are struggling over the one "weakness" of Lutheranism. The doctrine we believe, teach, and confess is absolutely, Scripturally correct. But, the one failing pastors and laymen and laywomen have is application of that doctrine to everyday life. I have found that reading Luther can help in this respect.

A few theologians since his time have been better systematic theologians, but none have been better practical theologians. To help, I'd suggest reading portions of Luther's Table Talk, or some of his sermons, or pastoral writings. I'm looking in Luther's Works and here are some titles (I'll have to check the software and see if I can share some of them, if not, I know of some good books from both CPH and Augsburg that are outstanding...):

That a Christian Assembly or Congregation has the Right and Power to Judge All Teaching and to Call, Appoint, and Dismiss Teachers, Established and Proven by Scripture

A Meditation on Christ’s Passion

An Exposition of the Lord’s Prayer for Simple Laymen

A Sermon on Preparing to Die

Comfort When Facing Grave Temptations

A Letter of Consolation to All Who Suffer Persecution

Whether One May Flee from a Deadly Plague

Sayings in Which Luther Found Comfort

That a Christian Should Bear his Cross with Patience

Comfort for Women Who have had a Miscarriage

Treatise on Good Works

A Sermon on the Three Kinds of Good Life for the Instruction of Consciences

That Parents Should Neither Compel nor Hinder the Marriage of Their Children, and That Children Should Not Become Engaged Without Their Parents’ Consent

Whether Soldiers, Too, Can be Saved

A Sermon on Keeping Children in School

On Marriage Matters

Sermon at Coburg on Cross and Suffering

Sermon on the Sum of the Christian Life

Sermon on Soberness and Moderation

[ByzantineDixie]

Theo, you are such a great guy! :hug: Thanks for the information. What rich stuff you have here. I always wondered about the "social gospel"--never knew what it was called until I read your post. I was asked to lead a bible study earlier this year that was on the order of "social gospel" (and no ChiRho...it wasn't PDL! :P ). I hadn't seen anything like that before. I complained to the responsible person and managed to drop it as soon as possible and get us on another topic.

I think you are struggling over the one "weakness" of Lutheranism. The doctrine we believe, teach, and confess is absolutely, Scripturally correct. But, the one failing pastors and laymen and laywomen have is application of that doctrine to everyday life. I have found that reading Luther can help in this respect.

I appreciate the Luther references. I think I may just have to make the investment in the CD. I have got to get this thing sorted out.

Theo...I pose this for discussion only because I'd like to learn more. Isn't it problematic if only the rare theologian...a handful or so...are skilled enough to help the laity apply the faith to everyday life? Is this because our doctrine is so complicated or is this because we have lost site of the relationship (with God) which enables the doctrine in the first place?

I know some folks are happy keeping God in their God box and letting Him out on Sunday morning but many seek Him daily. Those that do could use a little practical instruction preferably from a guy who has used a cell phone and a PC. In other words, from someone who knows these times and can apply faith instruction to them. I know some will say all the instruction we need is in Luther's explanation of the 10 commandments in the Catechism. But someone still has to show us how abortion equals murder, how not being fully accurate on your income tax is stealing...you know, the practical stuff. Then once we know that...what do we do with it??? Application seems to equate to pietism. :confused:

I'll lay low for a while and glean.....R

[ChiRho]

[QUOTE=Luthers Rose]Theo, you are such a great guy! :hug: Thanks for the information. What rich stuff you have here. I always wondered about the "social gospel"--never knew what it was called until I read your post. I was asked to lead a bible study earlier this year that was on the order of "social gospel" (and no ChiRho...it wasn't PDL! :P ). I hadn't seen anything like that before. I complained to the responsible person and managed to drop it as soon as possible and get us on another topic.



I appreciate the Luther references. I think I may just have to make the investment in the CD. I have got to get this thing sorted out.

[COLOR=DarkRed]Theo...I pose this for discussion only because I'd like to learn more. Isn't it problematic if only the rare theologian...a handful or so...are skilled enough to help the laity apply the faith to everyday life?

This is our extremely frightening present reality.


Is this because our doctrine is so complicated or is this because we have lost site of the relationship (with God) which enables the doctrine in the first place?

The latter. The truth that is confessed in the Small Catechism is not complicated. Complication comes from the sinful twisting and deficiency of man. But Confessional Lutheranism will not die as God has promised He will never abandon His people.

I know some folks are happy keeping God in their God box and letting Him out on Sunday morning but many seek Him daily.

I am not sure what "seek Him daily," means here, nor "keeping God in a box." Maybe you could help me to understand what you mean?


Those that do could use a little practical instruction preferably from a guy who has used a cell phone and a PC. In other words, from someone who knows these times and can apply faith instruction to them.

This "guy" should be your pastor. The needs that you have rightly identified should be part of the pastor's service to his (which ultimately is His) flock. Our pastors should be able to help with questions that bother us, and he should be able to answer in terms that the masses can understand. Just as Luther sought to translate the German Bible in the language of the common folk, pastors should not confuse, but clarify Scriptures. Basically, one must try not to get in the way...but trust the simple and clear Word of God to work.


I know some will say all the instruction we need is in Luther's explanation of the 10 commandments in the Catechism. But someone still has to show us how abortion equals murder, how not being fully accurate on your income tax is stealing...you know, the practical stuff.

Well, as a Libertarian, I would say that the government is stealing from me, but that is for another thread....

Rose, you are right. Sin identification is needed! Everyday...every single day Satan is at us and assaulting us with His lies! We need to hear of the Law...not so that we can apply it to our lives with the understanding that we have the ability to keep it (even as regenerated man), but to truly expose our deathly situation. But dull creatures we are, and we are continually lulled into a trance by a mammon drenched melody, rattled from the tail and hissed from the forked tongue of the Serpent. A song that I lust for. A musical piece that is the forbidden apple of my eye. As it turns out...I am the author of this vain tune and spend much of my time adding verses and tweeking it to my pleasure. What sobers us form this trance? The properly announced Law of God. We need to be sobered as Puddleglum was. We need the searing truth of the Law to awaken us from our trance of vanity. Then, in a state of terror and panic, we need the promise of the Gospel. That for our sickening disease, Christ is the only and absolute cure. As we continue to despise our Redeemer, He continues in His perfect Love. We are dismal failures...but with the forgiveness of Christ, we dont need to feel like failures all the time. Never does this mean that Christians are "less" in need of a Savior. No one is any more (nor less) sinful than each one of us. God is ever sancifying His people...this is not to be understood as being less sinful. One may actually sin less but can never claim to be less sinful. Modern sins should be indentified, clarified and announced boldy from our Pastors (and every Christian). Bolder still, must the Gospel be proclaimed.
Then once we know that...what do we do with it??? Application seems to equate to pietism. :confused:

Rose, I am not sure what you are meaning here. Perhaps the line of ethical achievements and spiritual Law fulfillment is getting blurred. No one keeps the Law...ever.


Pax Christi,

ChiRho

[ChiRho]

The Relationship Between Justification and Sanctification
"Are we paying so much attention to justification that we ignore
sanctification?"

What IS the relationship between justification and sanctification? Should we prefer a 50%-50% ratio or a 30% - 70% or 60%-40% in an attempt to keep things "balanced" between justification and sanctification? If we paid attention only to justification, would not sanctification follow? Is it possible to have justification and not sanctification?

Luther: "You ask, how shall we begin to be godly and what shall we do that God may begin His work in us? Answer: Do you not understand? It is not for you to work or to begin to be godly, AS LITTLE AS IT IS TO FURTHER AND COMPLETE IT. Everything that you begin is in and remains in sin, though it shines ever so brightly; you cannot do anything but sin, do what you will." Lenker, Sermons of Martin Luther, 1:25-27

Koeberle: "Sanctification must also be understood as an exclusive act of God. Just as forgiveness is exclusively God's work and every cooperation or conditioning activity on man's part is completely excluded, so regeneration is an energy that comes simply out of Christ's victory and does not require our supplementary efforts. It is not fitting to teach justification evangelically and then in the doctrine of sanctification to turn synergistic. . . . the unity of justification and sanctification given in the act of faith becomes mingled in a confused promiscuity, instead of keeping justification in a place of clear logical per-eminence over the sanctification that is given with it. As we have seen, neither can be separated from the other." The Quest for Hoiness, 95-96.

Sasse: "For the church does not live by morals, by the knowledge and observance of God's law nor does it live by religion, by lofty experiences of the divine and an awareness of the mysteries of God. It lives solely by the forgiveness of sins. Hence the reformation does not consist as the later Middle Ages believed, and has even been believed in wide circles of the Protestant world, of an ethico-religious correction, of a moral quickening and a spiritual deepening throughout the church. In consists, rather, according to its own peculiar nature, of the revival of the preaching fo the Gospel of forgiveness of sins for Christ's sake." Here We Stand, 60.

Scaer: "The desire to see the church as a congregation of the virtuous rather than an assembly of sinners is characteristic of Calvinism and Protestantism, not Lutheranism. The reformations under Zwingli and Calvin were so committed to making good works, at least as they understood them, a part of society, that they placed the government under the moral direction of the church." "Sanctification in the Lutheran Confessions," CTQ 53:3, 167.

This may help too.

Pax Christi,

ChiRho

[ByzantineDixie]

This "guy" should be your pastor. The needs that you have rightly identified should be part of the pastor's service to his (which ultimately is His) flock. Our pastors should be able to help with questions that bother us, and he should be able to answer in terms that the masses can understand. Just as Luther sought to translate the German Bible in the language of the common folk, pastors should not confuse, but clarify Scriptures. Basically, one must try not to get in the way...but trust the simple and clear Word of God to work.

Sorry if I led anyone to believe that my pastor wasn't doing his job!!! :eek: My pastor is the absolute BEST. I love him very much and God has definitely used him to help me in my relationship with God. God is using him in great ways at our church. Please do not misunderstand. Actually...I was trying to head off the standard response of read the catechism and read Walther. Good stuff...absolutely...but...well I've been down this road before. And I wanted to expand on the notion Theo proposed.

Rose, you are right. Sin identification is needed! Everyday...every single day Satan is at us and assaulting us with His lies! We need to hear of the Law...not so that we can apply it to our lives with the understanding that we have the ability to keep it (even as regenerated man), but to truly expose our deathly situation. But dull creatures we are, and we are continually lulled into a trance by a mammon drenched melody, rattled from the tail and hissed from the forked tongue of the Serpent. A song that I lust for. A musical piece that is the forbidden apple of my eye. As it turns out...I am the author of this vain tune and spend much of my time adding verses and tweeking it to my pleasure. What sobers us form this trance? The properly announced Law of God. We need to be sobered as Puddleglum was. We need the searing truth of the Law to awaken us from our trance of vanity. Then, in a state of terror and panic, we need the promise of the Gospel. That for our sickening disease, Christ is the only and absolute cure. As we continue to despise our Redeemer, He continues in His perfect Love. We are dismal failures...but with the forgiveness of Christ, we dont need to feel like failures all the time. Never does this mean that Christians are "less" in need of a Savior. No one is any more (nor less) sinful than each one of us. God is ever sancifying His people...this is not to be understood as being less sinful. One may actually sin less but can never claim to be less sinful. Modern sins should be indentified, clarified and announced boldy from our Pastors (and every Christian). Bolder still, must the Gospel be proclaimed.


Couple of questions here...where does the third use of the law come into play in what you have written. Or does it? Do you ascribe to the school of thought where there is no third use of the Law?

God is ever sancifying His people...this is not to be understood as being less sinful. One may actually sin less but can never claim to be less sinful.

Ah...here we might be getting somewhere. Can you expand a bit on this? How does God's sanctification manifest itself in His people?

Oh and I have run across the quote you referenced above on Joel Brondo's site. It appears at least one commentor had similar questions to my...but unfortuately, they went unanswered.... :(

Greatly appreciate your efforts and patience in walking (or rather crawling) me through this.

Love y'all

Rose

[theologia crucis]

Dang, there's a lot to try and hit before bed!

Theo, you are such a great guy!

Thanks, but I'm just a joyful, miserable sinner!

I always wondered about the "social gospel"--never knew what it was called until I read your post.

The "social gospel" is no gospel at all. When I hear of the social gospel I always think of the first chapters of the Epistle to the Galatians...

Also, here are some links from Issues, etc., regarding pietism in the Lutheran Church:

Pietism and Mission (http://www.mtio.com/articles/bissar105.htm)
The Roots and Fruits of Pietism (http://www.mtio.com/articles/aissar3.htm)

If you also look through the Issues, etc. archives for 2003, you can get some streaming audio to listen to a discussion on it. It also discusses sanctification and growth (or lack thereof) in the Christian life.

Is this because our doctrine is so complicated or is this because we have lost site of the relationship (with God) which enables the doctrine in the first place?

Actually, I would say our doctrine is actually incredibly simple. If anything, we might become to lax (because of our trust in God to work faith in unbelievers, which IS how it takes place) that we don't worry about how God can use the Holy Spirit to work through us. That is why witnessing can be so important. As long as it doesn't get to the point of legalism...

I appreciate the Luther references. I think I may just have to make the investment in the CD. I have got to get this thing sorted out.

Just buy the hard cover versions! :) They'd be easier to read when your trying to... Oh, I better watch it! ;)

And like I said, I might be able to copy and paste portions of some of these writings and send them to you.

Isn't it problematic if only the rare theologian...a handful or so...are skilled enough to help the laity apply the faith to everyday life?

I was probably being a little too broad. There are and have been some truly great pastors out there that can practically apply doctrine to life. I guess I made my statement after reading more systematic (dogmatic) and historical theology books. There have been sore really good practical stuff written, too, I just haven't read much of it (yet).

This is a good read (written by Timothy Wengert, co-editor of the new BoC translation) about the true purpose of the Reformers and the Book of Concord, the purpose of comforting sinners with the clear Gospel of Jesus Christ: http://www.elca.org/lp/luconfes.html

Here's another interesting article I stumbled across on the ELCA website (who'da thunk it?! :)) entitled Vocation: Where Liturgy and Ethics Meet (http://www.elca.org/jle/articles/vocation/article.pless_john.html)

I haven't read it thoroughly, but it looks pretty good...

Application seems to equate to pietism.

This is where the proper distinction between Law & Gospel, and the third use of the law comes in. What Christians can do is oppose abortion, and not cheat on their taxes, etc. And they can publicly witness this. But do it not in a way that sounds "holier than though", becuase we're all evil, pathetic, nasty creatures according to our old Adam. But, being Christians, we have been confronted by the Law and know we have NO hope at all in keeping like God demands. And we also know the Gospel, that our sins (every last stinking one of them) has been forgiven for Christ's sake through His perfect life, suffering, and death on the cross. And the Christian should be joyful because of their confidence that their sins have been forgiven, and lead their life in such a way.

But they should never, ever forget what kind of sinner still lurks in their Old Adam.

I was going to quote from Mueller, but it would be too long. So, I suggest going to the portion titled "The Doctrine of Sanctification and Good Works", section 3 ("The Inner Motions of Sanctification") and section 6 ("The Imperfection of Christian Sanctification in this Life").

Actually, I'll quote this part (from Luther):

“This life is not righteousness, but growth in righteousness; not health, but healing; not being, but becoming; not rest, but exercise. We are not yet what we shall be, but we are growing toward it; the process is not yet finished, but it is going on; this is not the end, but it is the road; all does not yet gleam with glory, but all is being purified.”

John Theodore Mueller, Christian Dogmatics, electronic ed. (St. Louis: Concordia Publishing House, 1999, c1934).

So, I guess application could go like this:

1.) You know it's sinful to cheat on taxes because you have been broken by God's Law ("Render unto Caeser...").

2.) You don't do it, even though you have been tempted to.

3.) A co-worker tells you that they are cheating on their taxes.

4.) You make some mention that you are tempted to because of government waist, or maybe have, but that they really should give their fair share, and somehow witness to Christ while doing it.

5.) Explain that you probably would cheat if you know you could get away with it, but realize that you shouldn't, not because you are any holier than your friend (broken by the Law/2nd use), but because you are forgiven (the promise of the Gospel), and it's the right thing to do (1st & 3rd uses of the law).

It's not well thought out or written, but something along those lines.

Couple of questions here...where does the third use of the law come into play in what you have written. Or does it? Do you ascribe to the school of thought where there is no third use of the Law?

It should come into play every day of your life. The 3rd use should play a very large role in every Christian's life. But, not to the point of despair or any sort of legalism or sense of coercion. But the Gospel should ALWAYS take center stage above the Law.

And, like in the Luther quote above, the Christian should always be aware of Old Adam and New Adam in them, and the fight they will have until death. See perhaps also Mueller, "Conversion, Or the Bestowal of Faith", Section 10 ("Continued Conversion").

In that Issues, etc. broadcast from May 2003, they go against any notion that one should feel less sinful as they become more sanctified. The opposite is true. The stronger one's faith in Christ, the more sinful they are likely to feel (i.e., the more sins they will notice, especially in regards to original sin, i.e., how sinful they truly are; cp. Romans 7, surely St. Paul was a outwardly wonderful Apostle, but he was also the chief of all sinners and a wretched man. Who could rescue him? Jesus Christ alone!)

In short, we will all be sinful due to original sin until the Old Adam is crucified at our bodily death. But Christians should NOT despair, because Jesus has taken our punishment for us and forgives us all our sins. In our eyes, we are totally sinful. But in God's eyes, thanks be to Christ, we are PERFECTLY holy in His sight. And we should never, ever forget that!

Well, it's another pourly written post, but I've got to get to bed. Did I hit on anything helpful?

Oh, lastly:

You have a merciful God, who will not strangle you. A Christian should and must be full of joy.

[ByzantineDixie]

Thanks, but I'm just a joyful, miserable sinner!
Yes, you are and so am I.

Wow!!! What a pleasure it was to wake up this morning and read this! It makes me wonder why I had any difficulty with the subject at all!

Oh...now I remember. :blush: So based on what you have said would you agree that there is nothing wrong with learning about those things that would be categorized as "third use of the law" things so long as in the grand scheme of things the study of and communication of the gospel is not overshadowed and is recognized as the primary reason for anything? Also, given that one's motives are proper--not thinking that works get them anything--and one has a proper understanding of how the Holy Spirit actually works desire and ability in the person to comply--not thinking that one is actually doing the work on their own--and that complying with the law in one area--paying accurate taxes for example--does in no way mean one is less sinful... I know I am missing a qualifier in here some where....hmmm. Theo, I know you said the doctrine is remarkably simple but you see how complex it can get? ;)


You have a merciful God, who will not strangle you. A Christian should and must be full of joy.

Couple of comments about this...first of all I have been looking for a good quote since I have come to CF and I think I have finally found one--actually you have found it for me! Theo, hope you do not mind but I am going to create a signature with this.

Secondly...I am learning to love how Lutherans take such a good, freeing, joyful message and manage to toss it out with an absolute like MUST. You all may not realize this but there is a distinct Lutheran speak out there. One of the most obvious is "one dare not". Its kinda fun to listen for these (or read as the case may be). Very endearing....

:hug: Things are looking up!

Rose

[theologia crucis]

ow!!! What a pleasure it was to wake up this morning and read this! It makes me wonder why I had any difficulty with the subject at all!

I was hoping I wouldn't "screw you up"!

So based on what you have said would you agree that there is nothing wrong with learning about those things that would be categorized as "third use of the law" things so long as in the grand scheme of things the study of and communication of the gospel is not overshadowed and is recognized as the primary reason for anything?

Yes, there is absolutely nothing wrong with learning and doing what is considered the third use of the law (a guide, ex. Psalm 119:9 & 1 John 4:9). God definitely wants us to follow and obey His Word.

But, none of us will EVER be able to do what He wants perfectly, like He demands. Thankfully, Jesus did it for us! Everything we do, even with the proper intentions, is still sinful. And this gets to that quote from last month I never had a chance to respond to: The only good works we do are forgiven works.

This is where you've got to remember the proper distinction between Law & Gospel. Even if we do something outwardly good, it's still tainted, if not completely corrupted by sin. How? First, original sin. Second, even if we've done something "good", we've still probably committed a sins of omission, or of commission, thought badly about someone and committed murder, or adultery, etc, by thought, word or deed (think of the corporate confession in the liturgy: "we have sinned against you by what we have done and by what we have left undone", etc.).

So, even if we've done something truly God-pleasing, it's still ALWAYS tainted with sin.

But, since we have been given the gift of faith in Christ (Christ's righteousness is imputed to us individually) by the power of the Holy Spirit (divine monergism), God sees this work as a good work because he sees us AS Christ, and we therefore are completely forgiven, even if we sin grossly (literal or figurative gross! :)).

Never forget our salvation is completely outside of us.

Here's a great quote from the Confessions:

I cannot change at all what I have consistently taught about this until now, namely, that “through faith” (as St. Peter says) we receive a different, new, clean heart and that, for the sake of Christ our mediator, God will and does regard us as completely righteous and holy. Although sin in the flesh is still not completely gone or dead, God will nevertheless not count it or consider it.

Robert Kolb, The Book of Concord : The Confessions of the Evangelical Lutheran Church (Minneapolis: Fortress Press, 2000).

And:

2. Accordingly, we believe, teach, and confess that our righteousness before God consists in this, that God forgives us our sins by sheer grace, without any works, merit, or worthiness of our own, in the past, at present, or in the future, that he gives us and reckons to us the righteousness of Christ’s obedience and that, because of this righteousness, we are accepted by God into grace and regarded as righteous.

Robert Kolb, The Book of Concord : The Confessions of the Evangelical Lutheran Church (Minneapolis: Fortress Press, 2000).

Theo, I know you said the doctrine is remarkably simple but you see how complex it can get? ;)

To me it is very simple:

1.) God is absolutely perfect and holy.
2.) After the fall, we are absolutely not!
3.) God does ALL the revealing and working of His salvation through Jesus Christ by the power of the Holy Spirit, and our salvation is completely independent of us!
4.) Because of the corruption due to original sin, the Old Adam (and that subtle snake) will be fighting the New Adam until Old Adam is killed at our bodily death.

As long as we don't forget 2.) & 3.) above, the Luther quote should apply! And one should hopefully have peace as well, and only then should one even think about predestination (opens another can of worms...)! Even thought one may be troubled by things in the world, a Christian should never forget what Christ did for them, and the wonderful joys God has prepared for them in heaven for all eternity! It's unimagineable! But it's true! Luther is correct in using "must" and "should", and I'm fully aware of all the subtleties of those two words...



Well, it's bedtime and I'm probably just muddying the waters. I hope I haven't screwed you up too bad, Rose!

I just have so much going through my head I want to post, but ain't smart enough to tie it all together (i.e., trying to think of how you're gonna respond and think of that response in advance!). It drives me nuts that I'm not a better writer (I'm an engineer!). I've got a pretty good idea of how everything ties together, I just have trouble explaining clearly sometimes...

Anywhooo...

P.S. You're very welcome for the quote! It comes from a little book from Germany outlining a lot of the Lutheran Reformation sites (and I got it from my female Lutheran pastor friend!)...

[ByzantineDixie]

But, none of us will EVER be able to do what He wants perfectly, like He demands. Thankfully, Jesus did it for us! Everything we do, even with the proper intentions, is still sinful. And this gets to that quote from last month I never had a chance to respond to: The only good works we do are forgiven works.

This is where you've got to remember the proper distinction between Law & Gospel. Even if we do something outwardly good, it's still tainted, if not completely corrupted by sin. How? First, original sin. Second, even if we've done something "good", we've still probably committed a sins of omission, or of commission, thought badly about someone and committed murder, or adultery, etc, by thought, word or deed (think of the corporate confession in the liturgy: "we have sinned against you by what we have done and by what we have left undone", etc.).

So, even if we've done something truly God-pleasing, it's still ALWAYS tainted with sin.

But, since we have been given the gift of faith in Christ (Christ's righteousness is imputed to us individually) by the power of the Holy Spirit (divine monergism), God sees this work as a good work because he sees us AS Christ, and we therefore are completely forgiven, even if we sin grossly (literal or figurative gross! :)).

Never forget our salvation is completely outside of us.

You are not messing me up at all, Theo. This is all very straightforward and foundational teaching.

What I have finally come to understand (and acknowledge, which was 90% of the battle) is that I do have what some might term pietistic sympathies. The one Issues article you referenced clarified for me where my thinking was (and for the most part still is). I believe at this point I have a full understanding of the orthodox Lutheran position on the matter...BUT, I don't know that I have fully embraced it. I still see value in applied Christianity. When I read the following from the Roots and Fruits reference...I was practically awestruck at how it characterized my own thinking.

Arndt’s Vier Bücher vom wahren Christentum (ET True Christianity), a devotional book (1606-09), was the first German Lutheran devotional books for the common people. Next to Thomas a Kempis’ Imitation of Christ it was the most widely circulated devotional books. Toward the close of his life he explained why he wrote it:

In the first place, [a] I wished to withdraw the minds of students and preachers form an inordinately controversial and polemical theology which has well-nigh assumed the form of an earlier scholastic theology. Secondly, [b] I purposed to conduct Christian believers from lifeless thoughts to such as might bring forth fruit. Thirdly, [c] I wished to guide them onward from mere science and theory to the actual practice of faith and godliness. And fourthly, [d] to show them wherein a truly Christian life that accords with true faith consists, as well as to explain the apostle’s meaning when he says, "I live; yet not I, but Christ liveth in me," etc. (Gal.2:20).

So I guess there is still work to be done to whip me into orthodoxy but at least I understand what the problem is.

And one should hopefully have peace as well, and only then should one even think about predestination (opens another can of worms...)!

Quite honestly...that's a doctrine that hasn't tripped me up yet. As complex as it is...OK, complex is not really the best descriptor, paradoxical?...it doesn't make my brain hurt to think about it.

Even thought one may be troubled by things in the world, a Christian should never forget what Christ did for them, and the wonderful joys God has prepared for them in heaven for all eternity! It's unimagineable! But it's true! Luther is correct in using "must" and "should", and I'm fully aware of all the subtleties of those two words...

Well, I hope you understand I am not saying Luther is incorrect in using the word MUST...its just a very German way of saying it! I can hear my mother now! (where is that little :rolleyes: icon anyway!!!)

I just have so much going through my head I want to post, but ain't smart enough to tie it all together (i.e., trying to think of how you're gonna respond and think of that response in advance!).

Ya, don't do that!!! I am not nearly as clever as you are so you end up working harder than you really need to! :D

It drives me nuts that I'm not a better writer (I'm an engineer!).

I was going to major in Engineering but I did not pass my entrance interviews...I had too much personality. :P ^_^ really just joking there!!! I work with a LOT of engineers. I drive some of them crazy. I do get on better with the French engineers though.

Theo...my sincere thanks.

Love

Rose

[theologia crucis]

Glad I could help! Lemme know if I can do anymore!

[ByzantineDixie]

Regarding Theo's post on the Scaer Sanctification article--posted 01 Aug 2004

Y'all probably don't know this but could easily imagine...I am a highlighter freak. No one can read a book after I have read it because I highlight and make comments in the margins. My husband frequently teases me that I highlight the wrong stuff! I imagine I do...I just pick the stuff that speaks to me at the time I read it.

Since I can't highlight or otherwise mark up this computer screen I wanted to repeat a couple of the quotes that grabbed my attention and add notes.

Sanctification is first christological, that is, it is Christ's own life in God and then our life in Him. His life did not follow a system of codes, a pattern of regulations or list of moral demands and constraints and restraints. Just as Christ's life had to do with self-giving, our sanctification has to do with presenting our bodies as living sacrifices.When I think of sanctification I tend first to think about the work of the Holy Spirit. You know 'I can not by my own reason or strength believe in Jesus Christ, our Lord, or come to him but the Holy Spirit calls me by the gospel, enlightens me with His gifts, sanctifies me..."

I thought Scaer did a great job of pointing to the work of each person of the Trinity in sanctification but also in pointing us to its christological center.

God allows us Christians to be plagued by sin and a sense of moral inadequacy to force us to see the impossibility of a self-generated holiness. Our only hope is to look to Christ in whom alone we have a perfect and complete sanctification. "He is the source of your life in Christ Jesus, whom God made our wisdom, our righteousness and sanctification and redemption" (1 Cor. 1:30).This was a great way of putting it. We all know how Law is used to point us to our utter dependence upon the need for justification by the Savior but I know I don't often reflect how this same Law forces a utter dependence upon the work of the Savior for sanctification as well...back to that Christological center.

Oh ya, Theo...I told the kids on the NYG trip about your Lutheran Wisdom post for them. They thought that was :cool: .

Peace

Rose

[Organist]

Since I can't highlight or otherwise mark up this computer screen I wanted to repeat a couple of the quotes that grabbed my attention and add notes.




What?? You can't highlight the computer screen???? {Quickly wiping off the highlighter marker} :blush:

[CrossWiseMag]

OK...I could use a little help with this one. I don't know about you but I do not constantly go about doing good works and continue to do them without ceasing. In fact, sometimes I know there is a good work to do and I opt to spend my time on-line instead--I see this as rejecting what the Holy Spirit is enabling me to do. According to this message though, I am an unbeliever??? :confused: And...by this defnition I haven't met one single true believer yet!!! So what is Luther trying to say here?


Remember that we are simultaneously saint and sinner. The Old Adam can do nothing other than sin, and sin constantly. That's why we must daily drown him. On the other hand, the new man cannot sin. The new man lives by faith, and does not stop doing good works by this faith. There are times when the Old Adam will get the new man around the neck and pull him down, but by the grace of God, the new man regains the upper hand, daily drowning that old man anew in the waters of baptism.

Anything without faith is sin. But faith, given by God, makes our most mundane tasks "good works" by the imputed righteousness of Christ.

[theologia crucis]

Interesting analogy with worship and basketball, filo!

[ByzantineDixie]

Theo...anything specific you are wanting to say with your commentary lately? Or are these just random things you are coming across. Just curious....R

[theologia crucis]

Just good stuff I've come across recently, Rose.

Time has been real short lately (of course!), trying to get shopping done, wrapping done, phone calls to friends, worship services, parties, looking at Christmas lights, playing with the daughter, etc.

But I found that Luther quote in "What Luther Says" (the "I too" one), and I love it! ML can be very long winded at times, but that was short and to the point, and I think it reflects the hope and joy that we should all have as Christians! Christ died, and we're gonna die. But, Christ rose, and we're gonna rise, too!!!

All I really want for Christmas is some free time! And that looks like a pipe dream right now! And the job thing could be back on the horizon: yuck!

[Friendshipcake]

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[TheCosmicGospel]

Hi Rose,

I am new here but feel blessed by what was written by you and others here I thought, "Hey, I will give a response too."

Piety has its unfortunate history in the Lutheran church. So we approach it from slightly different view. Piety for Lutherans is equated with Schliemacher. Lutheranism in the state church had become kind of a "dead horse" during his time. He wanted to revive it. What he reacted against needed to be addressed. But piety becomes its own object and loses balance with the Word. It all becomes subjective, personal experience of "me and God."

Luther addressed it himself in his "Treatise on Good Works". (I keep a set of notes on this work in my Bible.) It is actually a commentary on the 10 Commandments. He shows in each how the Christian is called to do more works than five lifetimes would allow him. It is a priceless read but it is not short in words.

Hope you get a chance to read it. Put it at the top of your list of "must reads". Trust me, you will not be disappointed. Might have to realize how important this was for Luther that he can be quite pointed in his remarks to the RC. But sift the wheat as you do everywhere.

Peace and Joy,
Cosmic

We are here to serve God, not solve God - Cosmic

[ByzantineDixie]

Hi Rose,

I am new here but feel blessed by what was written by you and others here I thought, "Hey, I will give a response too."




Hey Cosmic...welcome to TCL (my former forum home).

I thought I'd better update you. What I wrote is 2 and a half years old now. A lot of water has passed under that bridge since then. In the end I never did understand exactly what Lutherans meant by sanctification. I recently wrote on my blog:

At one time in my former non-Orthodox Christian life I was actually so concerned that I might be doing a good work for the sake of merit that if I sensed any resistance at all to doing the work, for example, like a desire to stay home and watch TV or go shopping or do some other self-pleasing activity, I would presume that I was only interested in doing the work to earn my salvation so the good work would go undone. Such erroneous reasoning meant that rather than developing the discipline of self denial and doing good works so that ultimately they do flow without thought, I selfishly fed my own appetites and rejected the grace I had been given to share Christ’s love.

Not quite a year ago I was chrismated and received by the Orthodox Church...Sanctification makes perfect sense to me now.

I think the teaching of Sanctification is not so clear cut in the Lutheran church...pretty obvious if anyone has read McCain's blog lately. For me, it was not the reason I left the Lutheran church...it wasn't even in the top 10...but now as an Orthodox Christian it is no longer a source of confusion.

Hope you enjoy your time here at CF! :wave:

[C.F.W. Walther]

Hey Cosmic...welcome to TCL (my former forum home).

I thought I'd better update you. What I wrote is 2 and a half years old now. A lot of water has passed under that bridge since then. In the end I never did understand exactly what Lutherans meant by sanctification. I recently wrote on my blog:

At one time in my former non-Orthodox Christian life I was actually so concerned that I might be doing a good work for the sake of merit that if I sensed any resistance at all to doing the work, for example, like a desire to stay home and watch TV or go shopping or do some other self-pleasing activity, I would presume that I was only interested in doing the work to earn my salvation so the good work would go undone. Such erroneous reasoning meant that rather than developing the discipline of self denial and doing good works so that ultimately they do flow without thought, I selfishly fed my own appetites and rejected the grace I had been given to share Christ’s love.

Not quite a year ago I was chrismated and received by the Orthodox Church...Sanctification makes perfect sense to me now.

I think the teaching of Sanctification is not so clear cut in the Lutheran church...pretty obvious if anyone has read McCain's blog lately. For me, it was not the reason I left the Lutheran church...it wasn't even in the top 10...but now as an Orthodox Christian it is no longer a source of confusion.

Hope you enjoy your time here at CF! :wave:My goodness Rose I'm sorry to hear you had such a struggle about doing any type of Christian Community service. I've never felt that they were good works because I wanted to give God back what he had given me as a love offering. I never hassled over whether it was a good work or not.