Ok, are you ready for the "Virgin Mary" question?

[Wisdom's Child]

Another question...
And I suspect it's one that you are all waiting for be to inevitably bring up, in my own way...

It seems to me that the Virgin Mary, and all of the Dogma's involving her, are a bit overemphasized considering the small (though admittedly important) part that she played in the Gospels. Accepting that she was a Virgin when she gave birth to Jesus is Doctrinally Sound, but I think that the Orthodox Tradition is doing a bit of "Overkill" in their driving that point home.

Why do the Orthodox "push the envelope" concerning the Virgin Mary?

There is also an "Intel" gap concerning Her Husband Joseph. He seems to have just dissapeared without any written record. What happened there?

[Orthodox Andrew]

Well, the Bible though an important part of Tradition, is only one part of it. One could say the fact that Christ and the Father are equal may not be stressed in the Bible, but that doesn't mean we shouldn't stress it. It just means that it was not meant to be fully defined through that part of Tradition. The same goes for the Ever-Virgin, although she might not have been very emphasized in the Bible, which is one part of Tradition. She was just meant to be emphasized in the other parts of Tradition.

She plays a strong role in the Church because she was a person so special, so devout, that God himself implanted Chirst in her, and allowed the Lord Christ to be carried inside her body. This on its own speaks volumes as to why we should commemorate her.

Verses about the Virgin...

Psa 45:10 Hearken, O daughter, and consider, and incline thine ear; forget also thine own people, and thy father's house;

Psa 45:11 So shall the king greatly desire thy beauty: for he is thy Lord; and worship thou him.

Psa 45:12 And the daughter of Tyre shall be there with a gift; even the rich among the people shall intreat thy favour.

Psa 45:13 The king's daughter is all glorious within: her clothing is of wrought gold.

Psa 45:14 She shall be brought unto the king in raiment of needlework: the virgins her companions that follow her shall be brought unto thee.

Psa 45:15 With gladness and rejoicing shall they be brought: they shall enter into the king's palace.

Psa 45:16 Instead of thy fathers shall be thy children, whom thou mayest make princes in all the earth.

Psa 45:17 I will make thy name to be remembered in all generations: therefore shall the people praise thee for ever and ever

[countrymousenc]

Another question...
And I suspect it's one that you are all waiting for be to inevitably bring up, in my own way...

It seems to me that the Virgin Mary, and all of the Dogma's involving her, are a bit overemphasized considering the small (though admittedly important) part that she played in the Gospels. Accepting that she was a Virgin when she gave birth to Jesus is Doctrinally sound, but I think that the Orthodox Tradition is doing a bit of "Overkill" in their driving that point home.

Why do the Orthodox "push the envelope" concerning the Virgin Mary?
Your fanatacism for Mary is Borderline Idolatry...

There is also an "Intel" gap concerning Her Husband Joseph. He seems to have just dissapeared without any written record. What happened there?

I haven't taken the time to welcome you to TAW yet, so, "Welcome." :)

I'm assuming that what you mean by the phrase "small part that she played in the Gospels" you mean that Mary isn't mentioned much outside the Gospel accounts themselves, and only once in the Acts of the Apostles. The Epistles don't mention her at all. By taking a quantitative approach, you can easily be led to downplay the importance of Mary's role in God's plan of salvation for the world. Try concentrating instead upon the qualitative - upon what the accounts tell us. First of all, consider the respect with which the angel addressed Mary when he brought her the news that God had chosen her from among women to bear the Messiah. "Hail O Blessed one!" If one of God's angels spoke to her this way, how should we fail to afford her honor? Consider her willingness to obey, even though it meant she would have to tell her betrothed that she was already pregnant and endure gossip. Those things are important about Mary, but what's most important is that through her, by the Holy Spirit, the Word of God became Immanuel, "God With Us," and one of us. Without the Incarnation we would have no hope of salvation. The Word of God had to really become flesh, born of woman. Mary is the gate through which the Savior entered the world, and that is why we honor her.

Also, when we honor the Saints (including Mary) we are honoring God Himself, for they represent His finished and perfect work. (Mary, for good reason, has the greatest place of honor among the saints.) For an analogy: Think of an artist or musician you like. Do you honor that person while ignoring his or her work? Or do you honor the artist by admiring and enjoying what he has created? How do we know God? By what He has done!

Then, too, and most important of all, Christ gave us the commandment to love each other. He didn't say "Love one another except for those who have died." In fact, He said that those who believe in Him shall never die. When he said "Love one another," that includes the Virgin Mary, too.

I hope that makes sense.

Love in Christ,
Dianne

[Oblio]

For me personally, once I began to grasp how Christ was the God-man, and all that entailed, especialy with respect to Salvation; that was when I really began to understand the emphasis on the Theotokos. Conversely, this emphasis points back to and glorifies Christ. We emphasize her because to do so emphasizes who He is.

[Orthosdoxa]

There is also an "Intel" gap concerning Her Husband Joseph. He seems to have just dissapeared without any written record. What happened there?
Ah, one of my favorite questions! :D

Look online for the "Protoevangelion of James". It is an ancient book that the Church fathers did not put into Scripture, but which has always been accepted as reliable. (Think of it this way - the same Church fathers who compiled the Bible also said that this book is reliable - that's good enough for me!) It is in fact where we get much of our info on the Theotokos.

In a nutshell, our lady Theotokos was born to her parents Joachim and Anna when they were very old, taking away the shame of their barrenness (for infertility was quite a reproach in those days). In their gratitude, they consecrated her to God at a very young age, and she lived in the temple until she was about 12 (you have to understand how very unusual that was!) Furthermore, as a young girl, she was taken in to the "Holy of Holies - UNHEARD OF for a little girl!! - but a foreshadowing - for she would one day contain the Holiest of Holies, in her womb...

She decided to remain a virgin her whole life, to forsake getting a husband and instead spend her days concentrating on the Lord. Joseph is in fact believed to be a far distant relative of hers, and they were betrothed once the priests in the temple decided that she needed to leave, that she was too old to continue living there - her parents were gone and she had nowhere to go, and a woman in those days just couldn't go get a job and an apartment - she had to be with someone. So St. Joseph the Betrothed, as he is known in the Orthodox Church, stepped into the role. (Betrothal is not engagement- it's like a "first stage" of marriage, for lack of a better term, where one has all the responsibilities of marriage, but none of the perks, if you know what I mean. Betrothal is still practiced in the Orthodox Church, though these days it happens just minutes before the marriage ceremony itself). St. Joseph was a elderly widower with children from his first marriage, and his role as St. Mary's betrothed husband was primarily a protective one - she would have likely been stoned to death otherwise - an unmarried woman being pregnant would have been simply scandalous. He was there to be a "husband", to protect her and our Saviour, because for her to be alone and do so would have not been possible. He drops out of the picture because he died when Jesus was very young, his role in the Gospel story having been completed.

There are very ancient icons that depict St. Joseph as an old, old man, with flowing white hair.

If I have made any errors, I'm open to correction from other Orthodox - it's late and I haven't read the Protoevangelion in some time - some of what I said above may have come from other sources. But I do know that this is the basic gist of the story.

Katherine

[Eusebios]

Hi again WC!
May I suggest that you look into a well written book, Mary Through the Centuries (http://www.amazon.com/exec/obidos/tg/detail/-/0300069510/103-3416937-6099005?v=glance) by Jaroslov Pelikan. He is Sterling Professor Emeritus at Yale. The book goes a long way towards explaining the importance of mariology, why it was so crucial to the ECFs and thus has remained so to the Orthodox even to today.
As to St.Joseph, it seens likely that due to his advanced age, that it is likely he reposed during Christ's late teens or early twenties, though I will be the first to admit that this is my own theory and opinion and should not be cobstrued as the position of the Church. Perhaps someone with more knowledge on this subject than I could shed some light on this?
His unworthy servant,
Eusebios.
:bow:

[ProCommunioneFacior]

For me personally, once I began to grasp how Christ was the God-man, and all that entailed, especialy with respect to Salvation; that was when I really began to understand the emphasis on the Theotokos. Conversely, this emphasis points back to and glorifies Christ. We emphasize her because to do so emphasizes who He is.
WC,

I am not Orthodox, but Catholic and the above statement hits the nail right on the head for me. For me, every single Marian doctrine ultimately praises God.

Theotokos (mother of God), this emphasizes that Jesus is God.

Mary Ever-Virgin, this emphasizes the special purity of Mary, so that the Pure one Himself could reside in her. Then the Holiness of Jesus made it so that Joseph would not dare enter this Sacred place.

Ark of the New Covenant, emphasizes that God Himself, the Word of God, the Bread of Life, and the High Priest resided in Mary, the Ark of the New Covenant.

Mary Queen of Heaven, emphasizes who the King is. Jesus is a Davidic King. The Davidic Kingdom had a Queen. However, the Queen was never the wife of the King but rather the mother. Thus, calling Mary, Queen of Heaven emphasizes who the King is.

I could go on but I am not sure what titles are compatible with Orthodox belief. If any of the above contradicts Orthodox theology just let me know and I'll edit my post.

[Rilian]

Try concentrating instead upon the qualitative - upon what the accounts tell us. First of all, consider the respect with which the angel addressed Mary when he brought her the news that God had chosen her from among women to bear the Messiah. "Hail O Blessed one!" If one of God's angels spoke to her this way, how should we fail to afford her honor? Consider her willingness to obey, even though it meant she would have to tell her betrothed that she was already pregnant and endure gossip. Those things are important about Mary, but what's most important is that through her, by the Holy Spirit, the Word of God became Immanuel, "God With Us," and one of us. Without the Incarnation we would have no hope of salvation. The Word of God had to really become flesh, born of woman. Mary is the gate through which the Savior entered the world, and that is why we honor her.


I think Dianne expressed it very well. To me, Mary cannot be honored enough and it is sad that in so much of Christianity she is hardly a blip on the radar. Her "yes" to God is really one of, if not the, paramount acts of human history. God seeks both to enter the world through Christ and to participate fully with us. Mary is his vessel to achieve the incarnation, but it is only done with her assent. I think this prefigures the whole plan of salvation in our new relationship with God, and is summed up beautifully in the Magnificat of Mary in Luke.

Beyond that, she stood by Jesus when the Apostles fled and remained there until the end. When Christ rose, it was to her and the other faithful women that he first appeared. I think that is telling in and of itself.

[Matthias]

I will back up everything said here so far. :)

[TomUK]

Ah, one of my favorite questions! :D

Look online for the "Protoevangelion of James". It is an ancient book that the Church fathers did not put into Scripture, but which has always been accepted as reliable. (Think of it this way - the same Church fathers who compiled the Bible also said that this book is reliable - that's good enough for me!) It is in fact where we get much of our info on the Theotokos.

In a nutshell, our lady Theotokos was born to her parents Joachim and Anna when they were very old, taking away the shame of their barrenness (for infertility was quite a reproach in those days). In their gratitude, they consecrated her to God at a very young age, and she lived in the temple until she was about 12 (you have to understand how very unusual that was!) Furthermore, as a young girl, she was taken in to the "Holy of Holies - UNHEARD OF for a little girl!! - but a foreshadowing - for she would one day contain the Holiest of Holies, in her womb...

She decided to remain a virgin her whole life, to forsake getting a husband and instead spend her days concentrating on the Lord. Joseph is in fact believed to be a far distant relative of hers, and they were betrothed once the priests in the temple decided that she needed to leave, that she was too old to continue living there - her parents were gone and she had nowhere to go, and a woman in those days just couldn't go get a job and an apartment - she had to be with someone. So St. Joseph the Betrothed, as he is known in the Orthodox Church, stepped into the role. (Betrothal is not engagement- it's like a "first stage" of marriage, for lack of a better term, where one has all the responsibilities of marriage, but none of the perks, if you know what I mean. Betrothal is still practiced in the Orthodox Church, though these days it happens just minutes before the marriage ceremony itself). St. Joseph was a elderly widower with children from his first marriage, and his role as St. Mary's betrothed husband was primarily a protective one - she would have likely been stoned to death otherwise - an unmarried woman being pregnant would have been simply scandalous. He was there to be a "husband", to protect her and our Saviour, because for her to be alone and do so would have not been possible. He drops out of the picture because he died when Jesus was very young, his role in the Gospel story having been completed.

There are very ancient icons that depict St. Joseph as an old, old man, with flowing white hair.

If I have made any errors, I'm open to correction from other Orthodox - it's late and I haven't read the Protoevangelion in some time - some of what I said above may have come from other sources. But I do know that this is the basic gist of the story.

Katherine


An absolutley fascinating post! Is this a universally accepted document in the orthodox church (and for that matter does anyone know if it is in the Catholic church.?

[MariaRegina]

An absolutley fascinating post! Is this a universally accepted document in the orthodox church (and for that matter does anyone know if it is in the Catholic church.?

Yes, this is very Orthodox.

I cannot speak for the Catholics as no doctrine has been defined here, so I don't really know what they might individually believe, except they likewise believe in the perpetual virginity of the Ever Virgin Mary.

Welcome to TAW.

Yours truly,
Elizabeth

[Matthias]

The Catholic Church does not fully agree with the document.

[The Prokeimenon!]

Excellent posts here!

One more good point:

At the wedding feast at Cana of Galillee. when they ran out of wine, the told the Theotokos. She, in turn, asked her Son, who answered her prayer. She told the men "whatever He tells you, do it".

So it is today. When we ask for Mary's prayers, she prays to her Son, and always points us to Him!

Of course, we pray directly to Christ Himself, going boldly before the Throne of Grace, but we also know that the fervent prayer of the righteous availeth much. So we ask the Theotokos, the Forerunner and Baptist John, and all the Saints for their prayers.

The last we hear of St Joseph the Betrothed is on the way home from the Temple, when Christ turns up missing. It is assumed he died soon thereafter. We know he was dead by the time Christ died on the Cross, because Christ gives St John the Theologian the task of caring for His Mother. This is also convincing evidence for the Ever-Virginity of Mary. If Jesus had brothers, than surely they would have taken care of His Mother, and not St John.

Moses

PS - The Orthodox and Catholics agree on some things about Mary, but due to the Latin doctrine of Original Sin, the Catholics have many novel doctrines that are both foreign and unneccessary to the Orthodox. That, however, is a whole other post ;)

[Alfred M]

What excellent information! The only thing I have to add is that for Mary to have said the first "yes" to God through Christ brought salvation into the world. We could not say "yes" to God if it had not been for Mary. It took great courage and faith for her to take this upon herself...therefore she remains blessed for all the ages.

In the love of our Saviour,
Alfred, the lowliest of sinners

[Eusebios]

Just a quick thank you to A-Kat for pointing us to the Protoevangelion of James. It can be found in it's entirety on Phil Thompson's excellent web-site, here (http://www.philthompson.net/pages/library/protevangelion.htm). There is also a very interesting and informative site with writings by St. John of Shanghai and San Francisco and Fr. Seraphim Rose of Holy Memory, here (http://www.stmaryofegypt.org/library/st_john_maximovich/on_veneration_of_the_theotokos.htm)
While it is my hope not to over-burden Wisdom's Child with info, I thought both of these would be of value.
His unworthy servant,
Eusebios.
:bow:

[katherine2001]

It's important to remember that Christ's human nature came from Mary. I know that in a thread on this board quite awhile ago, a Protestant coming on the board and saying that if Mary had said "no" to this, God would have just found someone else. It took God centuries to produce a woman pure and holy enough to bear the Son of God incarnate. My comment to this was that if Mary had said "no", we might still be waiting for Him to be born (either that or his birth would have happened centuries later) because God would have waited until another woman holy enough to bear Christ was produced. Also, as others have said, she is the greatest "mere" human being who has ever lived. She was willing to say "yes" to God no matter what the cost was.

[Suzannah]

I heard a program on Catholic radio (EWTN) recently and the speaker sounded like a very kind person...her name was "Roz" but I do not recall her last name ...anyway, she was a Jewish convert to Evangelical Protestantism who later converted to Catholicism. She summed up Mary's position in the Church, in this simple way and I thought it was at once amusing and quite true:

"Mary is the quintessential Jewish mother...and like all Jewish mothers, there's only one thing she is interested in: her Son! She wants you to meet her Son! And He's a Doctor! He's the Great Physician!"
:)

Even when I was a Protestant, I always longed for the Protestant bretheren to give her the honor due to her....I always found it sad that they treated her as simply "a womb"....If Mary is only a "womb", then Christ is only "a guy"....no wonder we have no respect for human life these days! We have lost respect for the Great Womb which brought our Lord into the world for our salvation!!!

[Kripost]

By the way, what is meant by 'dewy fleece' and 'πανενδροσε τε ποκε' in the hymn Agni Parthene in the english translation and greek respectively?

[Cradle]

Shame on me, I haven't installed greek fonts. So you have to bear with my latin alphabet greek :). (w for omega :) :) :)).

By the way, what is meant by 'dewy fleece' and 'πανενδροσε τε ποκε' in the hymn Agni Parthene in the english translation and greek respectively?

The hymn is written by a contemporary athonite father, right?

I'd make quite a safe guess at saying that the inspiration for the above must be a verse from the canon of the Akathist : "Chaire, o pokos o endrosos, wn Gedeon, Parthene, proetheasatw". "Rejoice, O Virgin, the dewy fleece that Gideon saw a long time ago" in my own translation. Or maybe "saw before it occured", depending on what meaning you choose to give to "pro" in the particular context. "Saw sometime in the Old Testament" anyway!

EDIT : Here's an obviously better translation of the whole "troparion" by Father Ephrem Lash

From you dropped down the dew that quenched the flame of idolatry. We therefore cry to you, ‘Hail, Virgin, Fleece wet with dew that Gideon saw in prophecy!"

from http://www.anastasis.org.uk/akathist.htm

So it has to do with Gideon's fleece. I'd hesitate to go on, since my knowledge of the Old Testament is worse than mediocre. I have a little book explaining all of the Akathist, both the canon and the 24 "oikoi" of the "chairetismoi" (translations for these terms somebody?). Unfortunately the book is at the other end of Europe with respect to where I am now :D .

However, the following roman catholic site has some interesting information on the issue :

http://www.mgardens.org/JS-BGR-MG.html

Quoting from there :

In the Promised Land, Gideon, being called by an angel of the
Lord to deliver the Children of Israel from the hands of enemies
into which they had fallen, asked first for a corroborating sign
from the Lord - namely that a fleece placed out on the ground by
him overnight would in the morning be drenched with dew, while
the surrounding ground would be completely dry ( Judges 6:37 ff).
This occurred and came to be known as the miracle of "Gideon's
Fleece" - a name given to the flower, Sundew, Drossera
rotundifolia, from the droplets of dew found on it each morning.

Also

A beautiful type of Mary is the miracle of Gideon's Fleece,
described above, which David saw, in Psalm 71:6, as a figure of
the coming Messiah:

"He shall come down like rain upon the fleece;
and as showers falling gently upon the earth."

St. Ambrose, St. Ephrem, St. Idlephonse, St. Jerome and others of
the Church Fathers all saw this also as a type of Our Lady in
that, as the water descended on the fleece, so Our Lord, who is
the water of life, descended upon Our Lady and inhabited her, and
she carried him in her womb.

Just for the strict nomenclature of the thing : if St Ambrose is of Mediolanum then he is common between the two churches, and so is St Ephrem if he is the Syrian. The two others are probably only Fathers to western christianity (correct me if I'm wrong). Anyway it seems that both churches see the fleece of Gideon as a symbol ("protypwsis") of the Virgin.

Which reminds me of

If you want to learn Orthodox theology,
you will find it in
the Paraklitiki,
the Triodion,
and the Pentecostarion.

taken from Father Ephrem's site http://www.anastasis.org.uk/songsof.htm

Christ is Risen!

[Matthias]

Greek writing is nearly identical to Russian, I never noticed that before I saw them side by side. Is it safe to say if you already speak Greek then learning Russian is easy?

[Cradle]

Greek writing is nearly identical to Russian, I never noticed that before I saw them side by side. Is it safe to say if you already speak Greek then learning Russian is easy?

Not at all! Russian is a slavonic language, while greek is another story. The reason why the writing is similar is that the cyrilic alphabet used to write russian has been developed from the greek one.

[Matthias]

Ohhhhhhhhh, right! Never assume!

[Kripost]

Greek writing is nearly identical to Russian, I never noticed that before I saw them side by side. Is it safe to say if you already speak Greek then learning Russian is easy?

I have not read much Russian, but I picked up some Ukrainian, which is in many ways similar to Russian. For one thing, the Russian/Ukrainian alphabet has consonants unfamiliar to Greek such as 'zh', 'sh', or 'shch'. I find words in slavonic languages more difficult to pronounce as compared to greek. As for grammar, Russian and Greek are rather different. For instance, Russian has no articles(words like 'the', 'a') while Greeks seem to love them.

[Oblio]

For instance, Russian has no articles(words like 'the', 'a') while Greeks seem to love them.


What, no articles, Is outrage !

[Orthodox Andrew]

What, no articles, Is outrage !
Tell me the story of "is outrage!"? I just can't stand not knowing anymore.:help:

[Oblio]

Tell me the story of "is outrage!"? I just can't stand not knowing anymore.:help:

The Wayback Machine :D (http://www.theoniondome.com/fanclub.php)

[Orthodox Andrew]

The Wayback Machine :D (http://www.theoniondome.com/fanclub.php)'

:DOkay, that was pretty good.:D

[ufonium2]

Hi WC! I'm not sure if this helps, but I've been thinking about it for the past couple of weeks, so putting it into words will at least help me :)

One of the things I love about Orthodoxy is the Orthodox view of original sin, which I won't even attempt to bumble through, but which can easily be found on this board and on tons of (reputable) websites. Basically what draws me to it is the feeling that humanity isn't inherently repulsive. Earth is still part of God's Kingdom, and He didn't wash His hands of us when he expelled Adam and Eve from the garden. I don't want to turn this into an argument about Original Sin, but I do suggest you check out the Orthodox point of view on it if you haven't.

Anyway, some churches got hold of the belief that humanity inhereted sin, and they ran with it. Eventually among some churches there sprung the belief that everything worldly was inherently sinful, that our very humanity was shameful. You see this today in some groups that do everything possible to cut themselves off from the outside world. Think early American Protestants or modern "Fundamentalists."

Of course, if you believe humanity itself to be inherently bad, Christ's dual nature becomes a big problem. So, most of the groups that hold these seperatist beliefs and begrudge their own humanity are the same groups that tend to downplay Christ's humanity and emphasize His divinity. If you're trying downplay His humanity, of course the first step will be to downplay His human mother and her role in Christianity. That's exactly what these groups do.

So, I guess I answered your question backwards. You asked why Orthodox put so much emphasis on Mary, and I explained why Protestants (generally) don't. It really has more to do with our views of Christ's essence and of our own nature than it does with Mary and how often she appears in scripture.

[prodromos]

The hymn is written by a contemporary athonite father, right?


Saint Nektarios of Pentapolis and Aegina actually :). He did spend a week or two on Mount Athos towards the end of his life, but that was it.

Thanks for the references to Gideon's fleece, and I think you are right about the Akathist hymn being the source for this hymn. It seems to me that Saint Nektarios wrote it as a condensed version of the Akathist.

John

[Michael the Iconographer]

There is also an "Intel" gap concerning Her Husband Joseph. He seems to have just dissapeared without any written record. What happened there?

Joseph, like a good father, did not want to stand in the way of his Son, Christ. So therefor, he disappeared from the gospels after the account of the Presentation of Christ in the Temple. At this point, it was proven that Joseph had done his job well, and his job was to raise Christ to be a good Jewish man and teach him about God.

[OrthodoxTexan]

Another text that the original poster might want to read is "On the Incarnation" by St. Athanasius.

[Oblio]

Another text that the original poster might want to read is "On the Incarnation" by St. Athanasius.

Online here with intro by C.C. Lewis (http://www.gty.org/~phil/history/ath-inc.htm)

A very good read !