Triclavianism?

[Moros]

Triclavianist: One who believes that three nails were used in the Crucifixion of Jesus Christ.

Is this an innovation of the Roman Catholics?

I do not ever see a single nail being driven into both feet in Orthodox iconography

A "Catholic" painting of the Crucifixion
http://img3.photobucket.com/albums/v13/blackshirt/Mb-Crucifixion.jpg

an Orthodox Icon of the Crucifixion:
http://img3.photobucket.com/albums/v13/blackshirt/crucifixion.jpg

- Bruncvik,
Still learning

[Matthias]

I stronly believe one nail. Why would there need to be two? Call me Roman Catholic or whatnot, but I believe it was one nail for the feet.

[Moros]

Judging by the way they crucified people (breaking of the legs) either way is entirely probable. In fact, it looks like it would kill you even faster with a footboard.

However, the one nail doesn't appear (to my knowledge) in Orthodox Iconography and I want to know why. :)

Roman Catholic!

[Matthias]

Either way, I am sure glad I never had to go through that sort of torture. :(

[prodromos]

I'm pretty sure every icon I have seen for the finding of the True Cross has four nails. One of them is at the Monastery of the Archangel Michael on the island of Thassos here in Greece (wonderful story of how it came to end up there :)). I haven't thought to look into where the other three are yet.

John.

[Moros]

So the one nail for both feet is Roman innovation?

[Photini]

Interesting. THe Icons I have seen all have four nails. I believe in Orthodox iconography of the Crucifixion, Christ is usually not shown wearing the crown of thorns either.

[Lady_Firehawk]

Uhhhh... does it really matter how many nails were used? :confused:

[Kripost]

Never paid attention the number of nails before. I will take note of it the next time I go to Orthodox and Catholic parishes.

[Oblio]

Uhhhh... does it really matter how many nails were used?


Only insofar as truth matters :) Orthodox are quite united on doctrinal matters, so sometimes we need to discuss what appears to be trivial things to stir up debate ;)

[Moros]

Uhhhh... does it really matter how many nails were used? :confused:

Yes.

[prodromos]

Uhhhh... does it really matter how many nails were used? :confused:

Well we wouldn't want to be venerating a nail that wasn't actually used in Christ's crucifixion now would we ;)

[Kripost]

Just a thought.... do any of the nails still survive as relics?

[xenia]

Uhhhh... does it really matter how many nails were used?

Yeah, it kinda does, in a way that's hard to explain to non-Orthodox.

Some Protestant churches fall into the dispair of "nothing really matters." Everything gets reduced down to the bare minimum of "what's the least we need to do to be saved?" and everything beyond this is viewed as either legalism or superstition. So, communion becomes a mere memorial supper with the elements reduced to store-brand grape juice and oyster crackers because "Does it really matter what we use? It's what's in our hearts that count." Baptism is stripped of its genuine meaning and reduced to a quick dunk in the church's hot tub because "Does God really care how we are baptized? It's what's in our hearts that count." We can come to church dressed in beach clothes and flip-flops because "Does God care how we are dressed? It's what's in our hearts that count." We erect huge barn-like structures devoid of ornamentation and symbols as our place of worship, not even calling it a Church but calling it a facility. And why not? "Does God care where we worship? He's everywhere- what's so special about a building?"

So Christianity leaves the realm of reality and becomes a mind game. The physical is sneered at as idolatrous and our whole Christian life is to take place inside our skulls because "God knows our hearts."

So yep, to us it does matter how many nails were used. I wouldn't say it's a problem of the top rank, but it does matter because to us, everything matters. And I am very glad for it.

Love, Xenia

[MattMMMan17]

I'm a triclavianist?! I can't believe my mother never told me. . .:P

[Moros]

Alright, a safe assumption is that Triclavianism is a Roman Catholic innovation.

Just another thing to add to the list of differences between RC and EO!

[Suzannah]

There is something about this niggling in my brain WRT the Shroud of Turin....I'll see if I can find it...brb.

[Suzannah]

Here it is:

The left foot imprint is less clear and it is also noticeable that the left calf imprint is unclear. This supports the opinion that the left leg had been rotated and crossed over the right instep in such a way that an incomplete foot print was formed. In the center of the right foot imprint, a definite punctate defect can be noted. This puncture is consistent with an object having penetrated the structures of the feet, and from the position of the feet the conclusion would be reasonable that the same object penetrated both feet after the left foot had been placed over the right."

From: http://shroud.com/bucklin.htm
An Autotopsy on the Man of the Shroud by: by
Robert Bucklin, M.D., J.D.
Las Vegas, Nevada

[MattMMMan17]

Alright, a safe assumption is that Triclavianism is a Roman Catholic innovation.

Just another thing to add to the list of differences between RC and EO!I'd have to disagree, especially given Suzannah's information regarding the evidence found on the shroud of turin. It seems that the 4 nail belief would be an Orthodox innovation.

It may be another difference between the two Faiths, but they both hold to the fact that Jesus WAS crucified for our sake. As long as we keep that in mind, we'll be better off for it.

[katherine2001]

But does the Orthodox accept the Shroud of Turin as being the actual burial shroud of Christ? Unless the Church as a whole accepts it as such (not just individual members of the Church) then what the shroud shows doesn't really matter, does it?

[katherine2001]

The first sentence should say, "Does the Orthodox Church accept the Shroud of Turin as being the actual burial shroud of Christ?" I had to correct this or my aunt, who taught English for 42 years, would turn over in her grave.

[MattMMMan17]

It was my belief that the majority of Orthodoxy(if not all) accepts the shroud to be the burial shroud of Christ.

[Oblio]

Unless the Church as a whole accepts it as such (not just individual members of the Church) then what the shroud shows doesn't really matter, does it?


Amin

[katherine2001]

Have any official statements been issued by any Synod in any of the Orthodox Churches recognizing the Shroud of Turin as the burial shroud of Christ?

[Moros]

I'm going to ship out some mass emails to some priests around the country and settle this nail business. Will report back when they reply.

[Moros]

Father Lawrence:

The position of the Church Fathers has always been that four nails were used and that His feet were nailed to a board which was then center nailed to the perpendicular of the Cross itself; this is so firmly entrenched in Orthodox Iconography as to render the traditional Orthodox Cross as having 3 bars, the top bar being the sign, the middle bar being the horizontal on which His hands were nailed, and the bottom bar being the foot board. Holy Tradition says that at the moment of His death, his legs went into spasm causing the board to be forced up on the right and down on the left, creating a diagonal direction of the foot board and, at the same time, showing the Judgement of the two thieves, the one on the right inheriting Paradise and the one on the left condemning himself to hell.

As for the Shroud of Turin, the Church has no official position on it; however it would be impossible to say whether one or two nails were used, since a single nail would have still be driven through both feet even if only one was used. Depending on how His legs were positioned when the shroud was placed on him, would determine if one or two blood spots would be present at the feet. Finally, we must remember that nailing was not commonly done as a part of crucifixion by the Romans; it was used in very large men whose weight made roping them to the cross impractical, and to heighten the torture of crucifixion, to prolong the agony, since by supporting the limbs, in particular, the legs with nails, the death, which ultimately occurred as a result of slow suffocation of the body from its weight hanging on the cross, was prolonged.

[Matthias]

After doing some reading, perhaps four nails were used. I have never given great thought to the idea.

[prodromos]

Just a thought.... do any of the nails still survive as relics?

I only know for certain of one of the nails which is kept at the Monastery of the Archangel Michael on the island of Thasos in Greece. There is quite a story as to how it ended up there but as I don't have the book handy in front of me I won't post anything yet as I don't want to get my details wrong.

Regarding the Shroud of Turin, it is my understanding that all of the objects involved in Jesus' crucifixion have had remarkable miracles associated with them and if the shroud was genuinely the burial sheet wrapped around Christ in the tomb then I would expect there to be a history of miracles following it too. Are there any recorded?

John.

[Suzannah]

Interesting conversation! I am not prepared to really offer anything other than this:

WRT: miracles being associated with the Shroud, John brings up an interesting point: are there any miracles attributed to it?
In my opinion, the "miracle" is that it exists at all, and that no scientist has yet figured out how it was made. Also, it may be that the Shroud exists for us, not for physical healings (physical miracles) but for our wonderment and contemplation. This is a miracle within.

I think that whether three nails or four nails were used, is not as important as this : The Tomb is empty. That's a miracle!!!
But I will research and see if there are any physical miracles associated with the Shroud...it's a VERY good question!

[Matthias]

Yep, I'm now convinced on the four nailed view.