UnOrthodox Orthodoxy?

[Wisdom's Child]

Mark 9:33-40
And he came to Capernaum: and being in the house he asked them, What was it that ye disputed among yourselves by the way? But they held their peace: for by the way they had disputed among themselves, who should be the greatest. And he sat down, and called the twelve, and saith unto them, If any man desire to be first, the same shall be last of all, and servant of all. And he took a child, and set him in the midst of them: and when he had taken him in his arms, he said unto them, Whosoever shall receive one of such children in my name, receiveth me: and whosoever shall receive me, receiveth not me, but him that sent me. And John answered him, saying, Master, we saw one casting out devils in thy name, and he followeth not us: and we forbad him, because he followeth not us. But Jesus said, Forbid him not: for there is no man which shall do a miracle in my name, that can lightly speak evil of me. For he that is not against us is on our part.


This passage of Scripture brings up two issues that I am personally dealing with. I feel that I am being led to an Orthodox type of Belief and Faith, but I (as yet) do not fall under any Apostolic Tradition. Thus I find myself in a spiritual dilemma.

Is it possible to embrace the common aspects of Orthodoxy in it's entirety without the necessity of having to subject myself to any single Hierarchy?

I view the different forms of Orthodoxy (and their Sees) as a Majestic "Wise Council" of Spiritual Elders.

[Oblio]

I view the different forms of Orthodoxy (and their Sees) as a Majestic "Wise Council" of Spiritual Elders.


Actually, so do we :) What you have misunderstood is that there are not different forms of Orthodoxy. Each of the Churches are unified in faith and Tradition with the others making one unified Church. From a belief standpoint, this is what is affirmed in Communion of the Eucharist and part of the reason why we practice closed Communion.

[Rilian]

Speaking as a fellow non-Orthodox person, I have to say the threefold order seems to me to be instrinisically bound up with Orthodoxy. The whole guiding principle of the Orthodox church really to me is the idea that pastoral leadership of the church can be traced back to its earliest origins. It is what keeps the church consistent and orderly. St. Ignatius said in his Epistle to the Smyrnaeans in chapter eight

But avoid divisions, as being the beginning of evils. Do ye all follow the bishop, as Jesus Christ doth the Father; and follow the presbyters as the apostles; and have respect unto the deacons as unto the commandment of God. Let no one, apart from the bishop, do any of the things that appertain unto the church. Let that eucharist alone be considered valid which is celebrated in the presence of the bishop, or of him to whom he shall have entrusted it.

Wherever the bishop appear, there let the multitude be; even as wherever Christ Jesus is, there is the Catholic Church. It is not lawful either to baptize, or to hold a love-feast without the consent of the bishop; but whatsoever he shall approve of, that also is well pleasing unto God, to the end that whatever is done may be safe and sure.

St. Ignatius is one of the earliest sources we have outside of scripture itself to use as a way to put together the picture of the early church.

[I hope I'm answering the question your asking by the way!]

[MariaRegina]

Speaking as a fellow non-Orthodox person, I have to say the threefold order seems to me to be instrinisically bound up with Orthodoxy. The whole guiding principle of the Orthodox church really to me is the idea that pastoral leadership of the church can be traced back to its earliest origins. It is what keeps the church consistent and orderly. St. Ignatius said in his Epistle to the Smyrnaeans in chapter eight

But avoid divisions, as being the beginning of evils. Do ye all follow the bishop, as Jesus Christ doth the Father; and follow the presbyters as the apostles; and have respect unto the deacons as unto the commandment of God. Let no one, apart from the bishop, do any of the things that appertain unto the church. Let that eucharist alone be considered valid which is celebrated in the presence of the bishop, or of him to whom he shall have entrusted it.

Wherever the bishop appear, there let the multitude be; even as wherever Christ Jesus is, there is the Catholic Church. It is not lawful either to baptize, or to hold a love-feast without the consent of the bishop; but whatsoever he shall approve of, that also is well pleasing unto God, to the end that whatever is done may be safe and sure.

St. Ignatius is one of the earliest sources we have outside of scripture itself to use as a way to put together the picture of the early church.

[I hope I'm answering the question your asking by the way!]


Dear Andrew:

This is a really good post. Thanks for quoting St. Ignatius of Antioch. In case our readers don't know this, St. Ignatius of Antioch was the little child who was brought to Christ when Christ told the Apostles not to deny the little children. So, St. Ignatius personally saw and knew Christ. They say that St. John was only perhaps 13 when he was called by Christ. St. John helped to instruct St. Ignatius.

Hope this helps.

Elizabeth

[Orthosdoxa]

Is it possible to embrace the common aspects of Orthodoxy in it's entirety without the necessity of having to subject myself to any single Hierarchy?

Well, no. Because Orthodoxy is not just a set of doctrines or intellectual propositions or things to agree with. The Church is the Organic Body born on the day of Pentecost. She has continued in unbroken succession since then. The goal of the Christian life is union with Christ, which can only be achieved within the context of union with His Body. To be individualistic is the antithesis of true Christianity. (for a further exploration of this concept, see Clark Carlton's article at http://fatheralexander.org/booklets/english/from_baptist_to_first_century.htm Though it's not the point of the article, he explains the concept very well somewhere in there.)

However, you are just now coming into your exploration of Orthodoxy. It is understandable that the notion of "submission to a hierarchy" gives you pause - after all, general Protestantism tells us the only reliable source is our own personal interpretation of the Scriptures. As you learn more about the nature of the Church, your view may begin to shift, however. It's not so much, "well, gee, now I have to give up the right to my own mind and do what THAT guy says", so much as, "WHOO HOO! I have 2000 years of Christian wisdom and the sayings of holy men at my disposal - and I have our leaders to ensure that this faith continues to be passed down, unchanged, just as it has been since the beginning!"

Welcome to TAW, btw. I've been enjoying your questions.

Katherine

[Matthias]

No.

[Wisdom's Child]

However, you are just now coming into your exploration of Orthodoxy. It is understandable that the notion of "submission to a hierarchy" gives you pause - after all, general Protestantism tells us the only reliable source is our own personal interpretation of the Scriptures. As you learn more about the nature of the Church, your view may begin to shift, however. It's not so much, "well, gee, now I have to give up the right to my own mind and do what THAT guy says", so much as, "WHOO HOO! I have 2000 years of Christian wisdom and the sayings of holy men at my disposal - and I have our leaders to ensure that this faith continues to be passed down, unchanged, just as it has been since the beginning!"

Welcome to TAW, btw. I've been enjoying your questions.

Katherine

It is a relief to know that you at least have understanding of what I am having to struggle with.

I have been an Ordained Minister for nearly 4 years, with an ACTIVE revival ministry and an Internet ministry that provides spiritual oversight and guidance for many. To be led into Orthodoxy at this point seems strange, so I am proceeding very cautiously.

I come from a rather unusual religious upbringing, being raised Mormon, and having a doctrinal split with them at the age of 16 that broke the very foundation of my faith (it's a bitter pill to discover that your beliefs are based upon a lie), I am now 43 and have spent many, many years in prayer and searching to find that "Narrow Gate". My past experiences have really made me a "Berean", and as such only have Scripture and Dilligent Prayer that I truely Trust and rely on.

I hope that my questions reflect the sincerety and earnestness of my quest.

[Michael the Iconographer]

. To be led into Orthodoxy at this point seems strange, so I am proceeding very cautiously...(it's a bitter pill to discover that your beliefs are based upon a lie)...

Actually, I completely understand where you are coming from, for at one point I was somewhere nere there myself. If you go under conversion stories, you can read part I of my conversion. Part II will be coming in the next few weeks. I had already been studying St. Ignatius of Antioch, the Didache and some of the other Apostolic works when I enterred Roman Catholic Seminary. A strange thing happened to me while in Seminary, I became Orthodox. Or shall I say I found myself on a road that led straight to Orthodoxy. I only stayed in seminary for a year, and then left the Roman Catholic Church for the Byzantine Catholic Church for 2 years. I did that in order to slowly learn Orthodoxy while still being able to recieve the sacraments. There were things about Orthodoxy that took me a great while to be able to accept, but that is very normal. I encourage you to continue your studies, ask alot of questions and as the first Orthodox priest I ever spoke with told me, "marrinate in Orthodoxy."