Lutheran Eschatology (Moravians too, come on over HunterJon)

[JVAC]

Ok, was talking with some people and it got into Eschatology. I know the basics of the Church teaching, but I was oddly dumbfounded. I couldn't even remember that long word that people use to 'describe' our possition.

So basically, what is the Church teaching on Eschatology, other than: "Christ has died, Christ is Risen, Christ will come again."

-James

[Rechtgläubig]

What do the Ecumenical Creeds say? ;)

:D

[Rechtgläubig]

I couldn't even remember that long word that people use to 'describe' our possition.
Amil? :D


Sorry couldn't resist JVAC! ^_^

[JVAC]

WYSIWYG EDITOR, WHY ARE YOU DOING THIS TO ME???????

What do the Ecumenical Creeds say? ;)
At first, I thought you were serious, and now I see this winky guy, and all I have to say is "Jerk"!! :D (I also want to post the hug icon, but the stupid WYSIWYG Editor *rolls eyes*)

Amil? :D
HAH HAH HAH HAH!!


Yeah but all I got is, "He will come again in Glory to judge the living and the dead", however, while was waiting for this WYSIWYG Editor, I found out what "ad infernos" means.

-James

[Rechtgläubig]

At first, I thought you were serious, and now I see this winky guy, and all I have to say is "Jerk"!! :D (I also want to post the hug icon, but the stupid WYSIWYG Editor *rolls eyes*)
HAH HAH HAH HAH!!:hug: Hehe. Sorry man, I was at the tail end of a 12 hour shift and in a pretty good mood. lol. Sorry for being a butt-head. :D

I actually was sort of serious. The creeds are pretty straight forward...

"He ascended into heaven, and sitteth on the right hand of God the Father Almighty;"
You got the "millenial reign" which takes place now and in Jesus' Kingdom, Heaven. (John 18:36/Luke 23:42

"...from thence He shall come to judge the quick and the dead."
From there, He will come to judge on Judgement Day. This also tells me that He will come once not multiple times.

The Nicene Creed seems to say basicly the same thing...
"and ascended into heaven, and sitteth on the right hand of the Father; and He shall come again with glory to judge the quick and the dead; whose kingdom shall have no end."
"With Glory" indicates (to me) that this will be a Glorified return, not a hidden, secret rapture. "For as lightning that comes from the east is visible even in the west, so will be the coming of the Son of Man." (Matthew 24:27 (http://bible.gospelcom.net/cgi-bin/bible?passage=MATT+24:27&language=english&version=NIV&showfn=on&showxref=on))

And then the Athanasian Creed reenforces all of this...
"He ascended into heaven; He sitteth on the right hand of the Father, God Almighty; from whence He shall come to judge the quick and the dead. At whose coming all men shall rise again with their bodies, and shall give an account of their own works. And they that have done good shall go into life everlasting; and they that have done evil, into everlasting fire."

I don't see a rapture, a 1,000 year reign on earth, or a pilot and his band of believers called the "tribulation force" battleling to survive for 3 years. lol :P

[Rechtgläubig]

I prepaired a list of common misconceptions about the end times using a paper written by Robert Zink http://www.wls.wels.net/library/Essays/Authors/XYZ/ZinkMillennialism/ZinkMillennialism.htm...


1) The Jerusalem temple will be rebuilt. This is actually the New Testament church (Acts 15:5-21/Ephesians 2:19-22)

2) Christ will reign here on earth. His reign is now and in Heaven. (Luke 17:20/John 18:36/Hebrews 1:3/Revelation 3:21)

3) Palestine will be restored to the Jews to fulfill God's promise to Abraham. God's promise to Abraham was fulfilled. (Deuteronomy 19:7-9 + Joshua 20)

4) Palestine was promised to Israel "forever". The promise was conditional. (Joshua 23:16/Deuteronomy 28:64-67)

5) All Jews will be saved. All Israel will be saved (all believers) (Romans 2:28-29/Romans 9:6/Galations 3:29/John 8:39/Romans 11)

6) Multiple bodily Resurrections. One Resurrection of the body (John 5:28/Acts 24:15/Apostles Creed), one Resurrection of the spirit (conversion) (Ephesians 2:4-6)

7) 1,000 years in Revelation 20 is literal. 1,000 years in Revelation is symbolic of the entire New Testament period. (Revelation 20:2/1 John 3:8/Hebrews 2:14-15/John 12:31/John 16:11

8) Christ's reign will be earthly. Christ's reign, is now, in Heaven, where the "souls" of the dead martyrs are (Revelation 20:4/John 18:36/Luke 23:42)


Hope this is somewhat helpful and it makes up for my earlier foolishness.

:D

[Rechtgläubig]

Oops, I just realized 2 and 8 are the same. :o

Oh well...

:D

[ByzantineDixie]

Hope this is somewhat helpful and it makes up for my earlier foolishness.

:D

Even though the information is quite good, you are asking a bit much there, aren't you? :D

Actually, this is a great summary. Thanks for the reference link. :wave:

Eschatology is one area with which I think many Lutherans are not as familiar. I actually had a fellow church member asked me if I had read the Left Behind series and did I know the events were actually from Scripture! :o I had a opportunity to discuss with my pastor possible Wednesday evening sermon series topics and we discussed the possibility of him doing somethings on Eschatology but the bottom line is such topics really do not do much to build up the body of Christ. And that is one reason Lutherans are not generally as well informed on the topic...because we just don't hear about it much.


Peace

Rose

[Rechtgläubig]

Even though the information is quite good, you are asking a bit much there, aren't you? :D
I know! But is worth a shot! :P

Actually, this is a great summary. Thanks for the reference link. :wave: Your welcome!

Eschatology is one area with which I think many Lutherans are not as familiar. I actually had a fellow church member asked me if I had read the Left Behind series and did I know the events were actually from Scripture! :o I agree and was guilty myself until recently. I read the Left Behind books up through The Mark. Great Sci-Fi reading! :D The events are based on scripture, the problem I am discovering is that they are incorrectly based on scripture.

I had a opportunity to discuss with my pastor possible Wednesday evening sermon series topics and we discussed the possibility of him doing somethings on EschatologyInteresting, I wonder if our church calander is a little different from yours. :scratch: We celebrate "End Times" either at the beginning or end of Advent (I can't remember :( shame on me!) It lasts for about four weeks and the sermons and bible studies are on things like the rapture, antiChrist and Judgement Day.

**correction** We celebrate End Times at the end of Pentecost. I don't know what I was thinking earlier. :scratch:

but the bottom line is such topics really do not do much to build up the body of Christ. And that is one reason Lutherans are not generally as well informed on the topic...because we just don't hear about it much.
Although I agree that end times are not something that should be constantly obsessed over, I do think understanding the events correctly is very important. If you find the time and have the desire, read the last three pages in that paper I linked above (pages 14-17). Just incase you don't have the time I will post a summery and if you need clarification then refer to the document.

:hug: -Recht

1) First of all, millennialism is a formidable threat because it does not follow Scriptural principles of interpretation.


2) Secondly, millennialism is a threat to the faith once delivered to the saints because its teachings clearly distort and contradict many clear and plain doctrines of the Bible.


3) Thirdly, millennialism is a threat to the Christian faith because it is more world centered than Christ centered.


4) Fourthly, millennialism is a threat because it centers its teachings not on what God has done for us in Christ in the past, but mainly on what he will do for us in the future.


5) Fifthly, millennialism poses a threat to Biblical truth because it refuses to see the Old Testament prophecies of Christ as being fulfilled already, and looks rather still for some future fulfillment.


6) Millennialism also perverts the doctrine of the Anti-christ, not seeing this prophecy already fulfilled in the Roman papacy, but in some future world dictator.


7) Finally, the millennialist teaching poses a threat to the Christian faith by causing men to become indifferent to Christ’s second coming and the final judgment and giving them a false security.

[ChiRho]

I don't see a rapture, a 1,000 year reign on earth, or a pilot and his band of believers called the "tribulation force" battleling to survive for 3 years. lol

Oh how it hurts...I am laughing too hard!!

I hate the "fear" and "scare" tactics of some of the modern evangelical groups!

What does Revelation end with?

"Come Lord Jesus. Amen"

[Phoebe]

We had a lesson from Revelation yesterday. It was about the new heavens and a new earth. The sermon was about Christian love and our love for one another.

[Breetai]

I actually had a fellow church member asked me if I had read the Left Behind series and did I know the events were actually from Scripture!Yikes. I've read the entire Left Behind series(except for #12; I don't think that it's been released in soft cover yet). While I was very entertained, all they represent is someone's misguided eschatological views. Paul Maier, a Lutheran (I think he's the vice-president of the LCMS?) wrote an end-time fiction called A Skeleton in God's Closet. It's a best seller, is from a Lutheran perspective, and doesn't require you to spent money on eleven sequels to get the story.

Rech, you had me LMAO on post #3.

[Lotar]

I've read the first 9 or 10 books of that series, but it got too obvious that they were stretching it out to milk it for as much money as they could get.

I was shocked when I found out that people thought it was an accurate representation of Scripture. I thought the authors just thought it would be a good premise for a story... poor naive Lotar

[Breetai]

I was shocked when I found out that people thought it was an accurate representation of Scripture. I thought the authors just thought it would be a good premise for a story... poor naive LotarIt's alright. I have a hard time believing that people can see such lemmings myself sometimes. Silly humanoids...

[Living4Him03]

Hey Blake! Miss talkin to ya! Hope all is well!