After Lazarus.died...

[woden]

:) After Lazarus died where did he go? To "hell" or to heaven? If it were heaven why did Jesus resurrect him? Surely Jesus was holding him up from going to where he was meant to go.

[HisdaughterJen]

#1. Jesus is God, the Creator of our bodies, souls and spirits. He can do whatever He wants with us, whenever He wants to.
#2. 1 Peter 3:18-21 & 1 Peter 4:6
#3. Enoch 1 describes "resting places" where spirits of the dead are gathered until the time of judgment.
#4. After Jesus died and rose again, he led the captives to paradise.
Psa 68:18 (http://cf.blb.org/search/getBible.cfm?b=Psa&c=68&v=18&version=NIV#18)When you ascended on high, you led captives in your train; you received gifts from men, even from the rebellious-- that you, O Lord God, might dwell there.
#5. Lazarus was an object lesson in the power of God.

[The Gregorian]

Well, Jesus didn't say "Lazarus is in heaven or hell" or "he went somewhere else" even.... he said he's asleep.

Also, God said "the wages of sin is death" ... not "the wages of sin is immediate judgment at which point you go to heaven or hell."

Lastly, life begins at conception, right? When babies are stillborn... do they go to heaven or hell? How could God let a baby who hasn't even been born yet go to hell for all eternity simply by failing to be born? So they must go to heaven? So isn't abortion the most loving thing a parent could do? Immediate trip to heaven without ever having to feel the pains of this life?

If "death" doesn't exist, rather is only the transformation between one form of life and another... that sort of changes a lot of things.

Fact is... only God is eternal, we were all created at some point, so we're not immune to being killed.

[HisdaughterJen]

Well, Jesus didn't say "Lazarus is in heaven or hell" or "he went somewhere else" even.... he said he's asleep.

Referring to Lazarus' body....asleep.

Also, God said "the wages of sin is death" ... not "the wages of sin is immediate judgment at which point you go to heaven or hell."

Come on...quote the whole passage...that's not what that scripture is saying at all:

Rom 6:19 (http://www.blueletterbible.org/cgi-bin/tools/printer-friendly.pl?book=Rom&chapter=6&version=NIV#) I put this in human terms because you are weak in your natural selves. Just as you used to offer the parts of your body in slavery to impurity and to ever‑increasing wickedness, so now offer them in slavery to righteousness leading to holiness.
Rom 6:20 (http://www.blueletterbible.org/cgi-bin/tools/printer-friendly.pl?book=Rom&chapter=6&version=NIV#) When you were slaves to sin, you were free from the control of righteousness.
Rom 6:21 (http://www.blueletterbible.org/cgi-bin/tools/printer-friendly.pl?book=Rom&chapter=6&version=NIV#) What benefit did you reap at that time from the things you are now ashamed of? Those things result in death!
Rom 6:22 (http://www.blueletterbible.org/cgi-bin/tools/printer-friendly.pl?book=Rom&chapter=6&version=NIV#) But now that you have been set free from sin and have become slaves to God, the benefit you reap leads to holiness, and the result is eternal life.
Rom 6:23 (http://www.blueletterbible.org/cgi-bin/tools/printer-friendly.pl?book=Rom&chapter=6&version=NIV#) For the wages of sin is death, but the gift of God is eternal life in Christ Jesus our Lord.



God is saying that sin leads to death. Righteousness leads to eternal life which is the gift of God through Christ, because of Whom, we are righteous before God.

Lastly, life begins at conception, right? When babies are stillborn... do they go to heaven or hell? How could God let a baby who hasn't even been born yet go to hell for all eternity simply by failing to be born? So they must go to heaven? So isn't abortion the most loving thing a parent could do? Immediate trip to heaven without ever having to feel the pains of this life?

WHAT!!!!!!!!?????????????!!!!!!!!!!!!
You're joking right? Abortion....loving? JW's don't believe that anyone goes to heaven except for the 144,000. What are you talking about? you're freaking me out.

If you're not joking, then you need to look into what a baby goes through while it's being killed by the doctor. It most certainly does feel pain as it's being burned by chemicals or mutilated by knives. Some babies have survived.
http://joseromia.tripod.com/survivors.html

Abortion is the most atrocious abomination and holocaust in history. These kids are people, like you and me, whose parents were too selfish to choose to control themselves sexually instead choosing to murder their own children.

If "death" doesn't exist, rather is only the transformation between one form of life and another... that sort of changes a lot of things.

There is physical death of the body. The spirit lives and goes to God either to Paradise or to a prison to await judgment.


Fact is... only God is eternal, we were all created at some point, so we're not immune to being killed.


Killed...in the body.

Mat 10:28 (http://cf.blb.org/search/getBible.cfm?b=Mat&c=10&v=28&version=NIV#28)Do not be afraid of those who kill the body but cannot kill the soul. Rather, be afraid of the One who can destroy both soul and body in hell. Luk 12:4 (http://cf.blb.org/search/getBible.cfm?b=Luk&c=12&v=4&version=NIV#4)"I tell you, my friends, do not be afraid of those who kill the body and after that can do no more.

[The Gregorian]

Referring to Lazarus' body....asleep.
That's not what Jesus said. He said Lazarus was asleep... not his body was asleep while "he" was off somewhere else. It said "He" was asleep. Was Lazarus in hell? if so, why did Jesus bring him back after being judged and sent to hell? otherwise was he in heaven? in which case, why would Jesus bring the man he called his friend back from perfect happiness in heaven, only to roam the earth again to meet death... again. Jesus is the Christ because he didn't have to die... but for us he died once... Lazarus isn't worshipped by anyone... yet he died, and simply for the sake of a story, he was brought back from heaven, to die again... potentially putting him at risk of sinning and being sent to hell?

Either all of that, or it could just be as Jesus said "Lazarus" (not just his body) was asleep in death, unaware of anything as he was before he was born, waiting for God's judgment.

Come on...quote the whole passage...that's not what that scripture is saying at all:

(http://www.blueletterbible.org/cgi-bin/tools/printer-friendly.pl?book=Rom&chapter=6&version=NIV#)Rom 6:21 (http://www.blueletterbible.org/cgi-bin/tools/printer-friendly.pl?book=Rom&chapter=6&version=NIV#) What benefit did you reap at that time from the things you are now ashamed of? Those things result in death!
Yea... those things result in "Death".... not "being sent to another plane of existence where you'll be tortured forever with no chance of forgiveness. pretty big gap there, eh?
(http://www.blueletterbible.org/cgi-bin/tools/printer-friendly.pl?book=Rom&chapter=6&version=NIV#)For the wages of sin is death, but the gift of God is eternal life in Christ Jesus our Lord.
Yep... again... "death" not "eternal hellfire" .... and "life" not "transforming into a different form of life on a different plane of existence."

Some people honestly even believe that when people die, they BECOME angels... as though angels were simply dead humans that God wasn't torturing.... pretty sick.
WHAT!!!!!!!!?????????????!!!!!!!!!!!!
You're joking right? Abortion....loving? JW's don't believe that anyone goes to heaven except for the 144,000. What are you talking about? you're freaking me out.
Of course I don't believe abortion to be loving... but that would be one implication of an "immediate heaven/hell" ... either God sends unborn babies to hell.... which I can't believe... or they get a free ride to heaven without ever having to trudge through life... in which, abortion WOULD be the only thing a loving parent should do for their children so they didn't have to strugle through life... possibly even question whether or not God exists.... just send 'em straight to him.

That's one of the negative ideas to "people who don't go to hell are immediately sent to heaven" ... then you get people who can't wait to go to heaven, so they get death happy... i.e. the stereotypical middle eastern person right now.... "blow yourself up and go to heaven, wo0t." perfect example of how that concept is dangerous.


Abortion is the most atrocious abomination and holocaust in history. These kids are people, like you and me, whose parents were too selfish to choose to control themselves sexually instead choosing to murder their own children.
I agree... we've killed over a million iraqis and spent over 600 billion dollars already on a war to avenge less than 3,000 lives 7 years ago

... yet 4500 babies are aborted EVERY day in america alone...

Mat 10:28 (http://cf.blb.org/search/getBible.cfm?b=Mat&c=10&v=28&version=NIV#28)Do not be afraid of those who kill the body but cannot kill the soul. Rather, be afraid of the One who can destroy both soul and body in hell. Luk 12:4 (http://cf.blb.org/search/getBible.cfm?b=Luk&c=12&v=4&version=NIV#4)"I tell you, my friends, do not be afraid of those who kill the body and after that can do no more.

http://www.scripture4all.org/OnlineInterlinear/NTpdf/luk12.pdf
The word there is "Gehenna" ... not hell. Criminals in Jerusalem would not be given a proper burial at death, but be disgraced by their bodies thrown into a landfill to burn with the trash.

... one can die for a cause... and it can be a worthy death... but this verse warns you not to let yourself be like the ones who would die and just be thrown into a landfill, forgotten and dishonored.

[HisdaughterJen]

That's not what Jesus said. He said Lazarus was asleep... not his body was asleep while "he" was off somewhere else. It said "He" was asleep. Was Lazarus in hell? if so, why did Jesus bring him back after being judged and sent to hell? otherwise was he in heaven? in which case, why would Jesus bring the man he called his friend back from perfect happiness in heaven, only to roam the earth again to meet death... again. Jesus is the Christ because he didn't have to die... but for us he died once... Lazarus isn't worshipped by anyone... yet he died, and simply for the sake of a story, he was brought back from heaven, to die again... potentially putting him at risk of sinning and being sent to hell?

You are quite a thinker! I really appreciate that about you.

I don't think that's quite correct. Lazarus died and was resurrected before Jesus died and paid the price for sins. There is a place where spirits of the dead go. (read Enoch 1)

When Jesus died, he set the captives free. He went and preached to the spirits in prison and led them to paradise.

Now, it is my understanding that those who are in prison have not yet been judged. They are in a "holding cell" of sorts awaiting judgment day.

All we have is what the Bible tells us. (Enoch was once a part of the Bible canon and still is in Ethiopia. It was never removed.) When a person dies, his spirit goes to either paradise or a prison. On judgment day, all who are in the prison will be judged and then they, death, and hades (the prison) will be thrown into the lake of fire.

That might be a simple version of events but it's all Biblical.





Either all of that, or it could just be as Jesus said "Lazarus" (not just his body) was asleep in death, unaware of anything as he was before he was born, waiting for God's judgment.


As far as Lazarus goes, the Bible doesn't specifically tell us where he went at the moment of his death. Based on scripture, we could speculate that his spirit was in a place of comfort, not a prison. Jesus, the Lord of our spirits, can put us anywhere he wants to put us.




[/u]Yea... those things result in "Death".... not "being sent to another plane of existence where you'll be tortured forever with no chance of forgiveness. pretty big gap there, eh?

Yep... again... "death" not "eternal hellfire" .... and "life" not "transforming into a different form of life on a different plane of existence."


Well, that get's into an existential debate on what is real. Maybe the life that God intended for us to have originally is the "real life" and what we are dealing with now is an "altered" state of existence. In fact, I'd say that's pretty accurate. We are spirits (children of the Spirit) who have a soul (thoughts and emotions) that live in a body created to exist in a physical world.



Some people honestly even believe that when people die, they BECOME angels... as though angels were simply dead humans that God wasn't torturing.... pretty sick.

Well, that's just a misunderstanding of Jesus' words:

[COLOR=#0000ff]Mat 22:30 (http://www.blueletterbible.org/cgi-bin/tools/printer-friendly.pl?book=Rom&chapter=6&version=NIV#)At the resurrection people will neither marry nor be given in marriage; [U]they will be like the angels in heaven. Mar 12:25 (http://cf.blb.org/search/getBible.cfm?b=Mar&c=12&v=25&version=NIV#25)When the dead rise, they will neither marry nor be given in marriage; they will be like the angels in heaven. Luk 20:36 (http://cf.blb.org/search/getBible.cfm?b=Luk&c=20&v=36&version=NIV#36)and they can no longer die; for they are like the angels. They are God's children, since they are children of the resurrection.

Of course I don't believe abortion to be loving... but that would be one implication of an "immediate heaven/hell" ... either God sends unborn babies to hell.... which I can't believe... or they get a free ride to heaven without ever having to trudge through life... in which, abortion WOULD be the only thing a loving parent should do for their children so they didn't have to strugle through life... possibly even question whether or not God exists.... just send 'em straight to him.

Well, in that case, why don't we all murder and commit suicide so that we can go and be with Him? Life is a gift. The meaning and purpose of life here is to love each other. It's like the Israelites wandering in the desert for 40 years. It's a learning and growing experience. There's a point to it.

That's one of the negative ideas to "people who don't go to hell are immediately sent to heaven" ... then you get people who can't wait to go to heaven, so they get death happy... i.e. the stereotypical middle eastern person right now.... "blow yourself up and go to heaven, wo0t." perfect example of how that concept is dangerous.

Agreed.

The point of the promise of heaven in the Bible is that even if we should die, we will live. That is why we are born again of the spirit which is the deposit guaranteeing that which is to come. Paul knew that it is better to depart and be with the Lord and spoke of it in that respect. We should not fear death when we are in Christ because we keep on living (although not in body...until later). God doesn't like for us to mourn and grieve for the dead either, beyond...I think it's a week, if I recall correctly.




I agree... we've killed over a million iraqis and spent over 600 billion dollars already on a war to avenge less than 3,000 lives 7 years ago

... yet 4500 babies are aborted EVERY day in america alone...


Well, that's a different debate. I don't believe we've killed a million Iraqis. And I don't believe the point is to avenge 3,000 lives on 9-11. The guy and his sons were torturing and killing people, burying them in mass graves. He was paying families of martyrs $25,000 to blow themselves up, killing people in Israel. He gassed the Kurds so that their bodies lay in the streets...women and children. The guy was pure evil and no one in the world was stopping him. He was trying to rebuild Babylon in order to rule from there. It was a good thing that we went in there. It's a good thing that we are helping the Iraqi's rebuild. But it's time to let them govern themselves and get out.

Remember, too, that nothing happens in this world that God isn't aware of. It is entirely possible that the US forces saved millions of lives and gave people hope so that the gospel might be preached undeterred in that area. God has a plan and a goal that the gospel will be preached worldwide. He will use whatever means He sees fit to make that happen.



[color=#0000ff]

[URL]http://www.scripture4all.org/OnlineInterlinear/NTpdf/luk12.pdf (http://cf.blb.org/search/getBible.cfm?b=Mat&c=10&v=28&version=NIV#28)
The word there is "Gehenna" ... not hell. Criminals in Jerusalem would not be given a proper burial at death, but be disgraced by their bodies thrown into a landfill to burn with the trash.

... one can die for a cause... and it can be a worthy death... but this verse warns you not to let yourself be like the ones who would die and just be thrown into a landfill, forgotten and dishonored.


Yes. But remember, there is a different place for bodies and spirits. Bodies are buried, cremated, dust. Spirits continue and will be reunited with their bodies for judgment.