the intercession of the saints

[hawko]

How many of you ask the intercession of the saints when praying for a special intention ? I have done this all my life, especially when I had specific intentions that I was praying for. An example of this would be asking for the prayers of St Anthony when something is misplaced. Another example would be praying to St. Monica if you were a parent who had a son or daughter who had fallen away from the faith and stopped going to church. We have on two occasions buried a statue of St Joseph in the ground in front of our house and asked for his intercession when selling our house. Both times, our house sold quickly. Is this superstition, or is there real power in our prayers when the saints join us in intercession. I not only believe that there is real power in our prayers when we do this, but also we are praying in accordance to God's will. I also know (from my own personal experience), that many times the saints are interceding for us without us even asking them to do so. An example of this was something that I experienced this past Thursday. I stopped in the adoration chapel on the way home from work, and began praying for all of my intentions. My intentions lately have been for people that I know personally who have fallen away from the faith and don't go to church anymore, some of these living in serious sin. Anyway, as I began to pray for these people, the Lord showed me this vision in the Communion host: I saw a woman, (whom I did not know), and a face of a man with dark skin (in the foreground). I prayed for an understanding of the meaning and also for who these people were. When I asked the Lord who the woman was, I heard these words, "St. Joan of Arc". I prayed for an understanding of who the black man was, and I received these words; "Those in spiritual darkness". So, I understood that the vision of the black man was symbolic for those who are in spiritual darkness. When I got home, I was wondering why The Lord gave me a vision of St. Joan of arc, so thinking that maybe it was her feast day, I looked her name up in my "Lives of the Saints" book. It was then that I found out that it was not her feast day at all, and was puzzled as to why I saw a vision of her. It was not until the following morning, that I gained an understanding of this vision. It was then that I realized that St. Joan of Arc was praying with me for those in spiritual darkness, which was my intention also. So, the saints do indeed pray with us and for us , even without us asking for their intercession. How blessed we are to have these saints in heaven interceding for us.....what a blessing ! Thank You Jesus !

[CatholicFlame]

I think tht the saints in Heaven desire to see so many people saved that we really don't understand how much they intercede to God for us.

I love to pray to St. jude for my Dad's full conversion and to other saints for different intentions. Some of them have a special ministry of pryare just like they did on earth. St. Monica is a wonderful person to ask for the coversion of a family member as well. Hmm, I am geting inspired to ask Her for help for my Dad now! Thank you Hawko, and thank you Lord Jesus for your family.

[HisKid1973]

I've been just going straight to the top for years and have seen some incredible answers to prayer.It all goes to the Lord anyway..Do you think a heavenly saint has the pull to change God's mind over His will for you compared if we would just go straight to the Father like Jesus did..Please don't debate, I am just curious how you see it. .But I do know that when we are absent from the fleshly body we are present with the Lord..CF, What is a "full conversion"? Thanks ..God Bless...Kim

[CatholicFlame]

Hiskid, do think it is okay to pray to God together with those who behold God in His majesty there in heaven?

Together with them that is.

[HisKid1973]

Hiskid, do think it is okay to pray to God together with those who behold God in His majesty there in heaven?
Together with them that is.

Man CF you are quick..I honestly don't know.. I know we are observed by witnesses, but I don't know that they could "hear" prayers..To hear countless prayers wispered in the heart of saints all around the world I think you would need attribute that I thought only God had.. Honestly Bro, If I saw Peter, Paul or one of the others saints in the scriptures do it, I would have done it from day one..Guess I am just doing things by the book..My prayers are answered according to God's will anyway..shalom..Kim

Just my two cents..I am not here for debate, just responding to a post..shalom..Kim

[CatholicFlame]

It is a good topic to discuss.

I will try to explain why we do this but I for one would never want to say anything to make you go against your conscience.

For us, we believe that God is the only one who answers prayers, that is for sure.

Hiskid, we believe in a deep union between us and those in Heaven. I think that is why so many catholics have been able to receive messages from the saints and angels, we believe that they can communicate with us and that they really do care for us even though they seem to be gone.

Well this is deep, I guess that all I can say is that the scripture do say that we are surrounded by a coud of witnesses. Catholics beleive that this does mean that the saints are not far from any of us, they are with God.

Let me ask you this, why do you think that God would ever permit His saints and angels to communicate with us?

thank you for this kind discussion

and praise the Lord!



peace be with you

[HisKid1973]

I see angels sent to this realm and take our form to communicate with us but I never saw the NT believers contacting them in their realm..Jesus alway prayed to Abba, that is the examples we are given.. I'd have no problem dealing with an angel sent to me. I've experienced some divine interventions, buy no direct contact in this realm..shalom.

[CatholicFlame]

Well I beleive and have experienced the angels and saints hearing our prayers Kid. I guess that it takes time to believe something like this for you, but who knows, maybe some day God will show you what we are discussing here together.

peace to you

And May Jesus bless you in His mighty Name, amen.

[Peaceful Dove]

I probably don't as often as I should.
However, I do sometimes.

For instance, if I am alone, I am more likely to ask St Martin De Porres, or Mother Theresa or one of my babies who are in heaven to pray with me. I believe totally in the Communion of Saints and that they are even more alive than I am.
Jesus said "where two or more are gathered in His Name he is there with us". I think He means in a special way. So, I love to have two or more with me when I pray so I do invite my Saintly friends to pray with me.

We do not do this at Prayer Meetings.
At that time we are asking the Holy Spirit to intercede for us. This is HIS time.

[CatholicFlame]

Peaceful, lol this will be funny, but the reality of it is that we are given so much peacefulness in these prayers, and the fact that they are answered.

Get it, peaceful?

:-D


BTW, Have you ever looked at a word and knew there was something that was needed to be fixed in it? LOL the mystery of editing my posts, I am not a good speller.

[hawko]

I've been just going straight to the top for years and have seen some incredible answers to prayer.It all goes to the Lord anyway..Do you think a heavenly saint has the pull to change God's mind over His will for you compared if we would just go straight to the Father like Jesus did..Please don't debate, I am just curious how you see it. .But I do know that when we are absent from the fleshly body we are present with the Lord..CF, What is a "full conversion"? Thanks ..God Bless...Kim
Let me try to explain everything in an easy way to understand. If you and me are friends, and I ask you to pray for me, you would do it, right? Let's say that you die and go to heaven, you would still pray for me now that you are in heaven, would you not? This is the intercession of the saints.

[Peaceful Dove]

As a former Protestant, this is a very hard concept.

There are many folks who go straight to the Lord and also ask folks here still living to pray for them.

Each of us have a different way of approaching the Lord.

[isabella1]

I see angels sent to this realm and take our form to communicate with us but I never saw the NT believers contacting them in their realm..Jesus alway prayed to Abba, that is the examples we are given.. I'd have no problem dealing with an angel sent to me. I've experienced some divine interventions, buy no direct contact in this realm..shalom.
Still Praying for God to bless you with that angelic encounter. :) (I really mean it) Peace and Blessings.

[isabella1]

I happen to have a book, "The Churches Most Powerful Novenas". I have prayed with and asked for the intercessions of the saints for years. Not one prayer has gone unanswered. Some are answered more quickly than others. But I believe that is because of God will and praying from the heart.

The Saints that have prayed with me and interceded the most in my life are St. Michael, St. Peter, St. Joseph, St. Philomena, St. Joan of Arch, St. George, St. Hildegard, Blessed Kateri Tekakwitha, Mother Theresa and Pope John Paul II.

I have countless praise reports on the help of their prayers united to my own (to many to even begin to tell). I believe the saints pray with us, interceding in such a powerful, holy and pure way. I believe they take our prayers with them before the throne of God.

Yes I do go directly to our Lord in prayer. I also feel there is power with prayer in unity with others. So why not ask for the most holy of people (The communion of Saints), to pray with us. Peace and Blessings

[Peaceful Dove]

I happen to have a book, "The Churches Most Powerful Novenas". I have prayed with and asked for the intercessions of the saints for years. Not one prayer has gone unanswered. Some are answered more quickly than others. But I believe that is because of God will and praying from the heart.

The Saints that have prayed with me and interceded the most in my life are St. Michael, St. Peter, St. Joseph, St. Philomena, St. Joan of Arch, St. George, St. Hildegard, Blessed Kateri Tekakwitha, Mother Theresa and Pope John Paul II.

I have countless praise reports on the help of their prayers united to my own (to many to even begin to tell). I believe the saints pray with us, interceding in such a powerful, holy and pure way. I believe they take our prayers with them before the throne of God.

Yes I do go directly to our Lord in prayer. I also feel there is power with prayer in unity with others. So why not ask for the most holy of people (The communion of Saints), to pray with us. Peace and Blessings

Thank you for sharing.

[JoabAnias]

I've been just going straight to the top for years and have seen some incredible answers to prayer.It all goes to the Lord anyway..Do you think a heavenly saint has the pull to change God's mind over His will for you compared if we would just go straight to the Father like Jesus did..Please don't debate, I am just curious how you see it. .But I do know that when we are absent from the fleshly body we are present with the Lord..CF, What is a "full conversion"? Thanks ..God Bless...Kim

Yes sometimes as illustrated by these quotes:

"Everything that the Son asks of the father is granted. Likewise, everything that the mother asks of Her Son is also granted." -St. John Vianney

"Mary is the echo of God. If we say 'Mary', she will answer 'God'." That is why union with Her is always followed by union with God."
-St. Louis de Monfort

Peace.

:liturgy:

[JoabAnias]

I don't know that they could "hear" prayers.

It is frequently asked, and reasonably so, how can the Saints know and hear so many countless intercessory prayers from so many Christians worldwide petitioning them. The question is really one of knowing, not hearing. It is important for us to remember the fullness of revelation regarding our state of being after our human life is completed.

Principle among scriptures revealing our future life is the revelation of the essential nature of God Himself. Jesus often spoke of His Father (Abba) and of His Holy Spirit.

Matt 28:19 Go, therefore, and make disciples of all nations, baptizing them in the name of the Father, and of the Son, and of the holy Spirit.

John 10:38 ...but if I (Jesus) perform them, even if you do not believe me, believe the works, so that you may realize (and understand) that the Father is in me and I am in the Father.

The New Testament speaks often of the unity of the Godhead.

John 14:10-11 Do you not believe that I (Jesus) am in the Father and the Father is in me? The words that I speak to you I do not speak on my own. The Father who dwells in me is doing His works. Believe me that I am in the Father and the Father is in me, or else, believe because of the works themselves.

John also speaks of our union with the Father and Jesus as a fellowship a word from the Greek koinonia which is translated "community" meaning "in-union-with."

John 1:3 What we have seen and heard we proclaim now to you, so that you too may have fellowship with us; for our fellowship is with the Father and with his Son, Jesus Christ.

Jesus is most specific about our final relationship with Him. He calls it a one-ness.

John 17:11 And now I will no longer be in the world, but they are in the world, while I am coming to you. Holy Father, keep them in your name that you have given me, so that they may be one just as we are.

John 17:21-22 ... so that they may all be one, as you, Father, are in me and I in you, that they also may be in us, that the world may believe that you sent me. And I have given them the glory you gave me, so that they may be one, as we are one.

The Trinity is a foreshadowing of our eternal life--a oneness with the Father, Jesus and the Holy Spirit. We will share the life of the Godhead; as He knows so shall we know. The Saints already in union, at-one-ness with God share his life and his knowledge.

Paul put it succinctly.

1 Cor 13:12 At present we see indistinctly, as in a mirror, but then face to face. At present I know partially; then I shall know fully, as I am fully known.

John also had an insight that reflected our destiny.

1 John 3:2 Beloved, we are God's children now; what we shall be has not yet been revealed. We do know that when it is revealed we shall be like Him, for we shall see Him as He is.

Peace.

[JoabAnias]

If I saw Peter, Paul or one of the others saints in the scriptures do it, I would have done it from day one..Guess I am just doing things by the book.

It is not from Sacred Scripture alone that the Church draws her certainty about everything that has been revealed but what is following is part of the intrinsic truth of what has been ascertained from Sacred Scripture in the implicit sense.

The word in the Bible for "saint" or "saints" is the word (hagios) also translated "sanctified" or "holy ones." The root word hazo, means "to venerate." Hagios means to be separated from sin and therefore consecrated to God.

Hagios is used of God (Lk 1:49; Acts 3:14; Mt 1:18, etc.). It is a word used of men and things (1 Tim 1:9; 1 Pet 2:5,9, etc.)

When Paul uses the word "saint" in the singular, he refers to a state into which God calls men with His grace. Phil 4:21 Give my greetings to every holy one (hagion) in Christ Jesus.

In its plural form, Paul uses the word to refer to all believers. For Paul, the word is not applied only to persons of exceptional holiness, nor to those having died characterized by an exceptional life of saintliness.

Eph 2:19 So then you are no longer strangers and sojourners, but you are fellow citizens with the holy ones (hagios) and members of the household of God,

Rom 12:13 Contribute to the needs of the holy ones, exercise hospitality.

Rom 16:15 Greet Philologus, ... and all the holy ones who are with them.

1 Cor 16:1 Now in regard to the collection for the holy ones, you also should do as I ordered the churches of Galatia.

1 Cor 16:15 I urge you, brothers--you know that the household of Stephanas is the firstfruits of Achaia and that they have devoted themselves to the service of the holy ones--

It is Paul who calls all his fellow believers "saints," and not just the notably holy ones. Paul also uses the term for both those who are living and for those who are dead.

2 Thess 1:9-10 These (who do not acknowledge God nor heed the good news) will pay the penalty of eternal ruin, separated from the presence of the Lord and from the glory of his power, when he comes to be glorified among his holy ones (hagiois) and to be marveled at on that day among all who have believed, for our testimony to you was believed.

Jude 14-15 Enoch, of the seventh generation from Adam, prophesied also about them when he said, "Behold, the Lord has come with his countless holy ones (hagiais) to execute judgment on all and to convict everyone for all the godless deeds that they committed ..."

This practice of Paul corresponds to one of the earliest creedal statements of Christian faith: The Apostles Creed: "I believe in the communion of saints." Communion of saints refers to the bond of unity among all believers, both living and dead, who are or have been committed followers of Jesus Christ.

In the eyes of God, in eternity, the distinction between His People who are "living" or who are "dead" is not at all important.

Mk 9:4 Then Elijah appeared to them along with Moses, and they were conversing with Jesus.

Mk 12:26-27 "As for the dead being raised, have you not read in the Book of Moses, in the passage about the bush, how God told him, 'I am the God of Abraham, (the) God of Isaac, and (the) God of Jacob'? He is not God of the dead but of the living. You are greatly misled."

Lk 23:43 He replied to him (the crucified thief) "Amen, I say to you, today you will be with me in Paradise."

Rom 12:5 ... so we, though many, are one body in Christ and individually parts of one another. On the Church,

No. 49, Vatican II At the present time some of (Jesus') disciples are pilgrims on earth. Others have died and are being purified, while still others are in glory beholding "clearly God himself, three in one, as He is."

Catechism of the Catholic Church, Section 1474 The life of each of God's children is joined in Christ and through Christ in a wonderful way to the life of all the other Christian brethren in the supernatural unity of the Mystical Body of Christ, as in a single mystical person.
Our words "holy" and "holiness" come from the Hebrew (qadosh and qodesh) from the Greek (hagios, hagiosyne) and the Latin (sanctitas, sacer, sanctus).

Essentially holy means what is divine and pertains to God. It is His most intimate essence in which He radically transcends all that is created; totally Other. Holiness extends to whatever is in relationship with the divine; it includes the idea of separation and opposition to what is profane and common; it expresses the idea of belonging to or being possessed by God.

Lev 11:44 For I, the LORD, am your God; and you shall make and keep yourselves holy, because I am holy. ... Since I, the LORD, brought you up from the land of Egypt that I might be your God, you shall be holy, because I am holy.

Lev 19:2 Speak to the whole Israelite community and tell them: Be holy, for I, the LORD your God, am holy.

Hosea 11:9 For I am God and not man, the Holy One present among you.

1 Peter 1:15 As he who called you is holy, be holy yourselves in every aspect of your conduct, for it is written, "Be holy because I (am) holy."

Heb 12:14 Strive for peace with everyone, and for that holiness without which no one will see the Lord.

1 Thes 4:3 This is the will of God, your holiness ... Matt 5:48 So be perfect, just as your heavenly Father is perfect.

As Paul writes, in each individual, sanctification takes place through faith and baptism.

Rom 15:16 ... to be a minister of Christ Jesus to the Gentiles in performing the priestly service of the gospel of God, so that the offering up of the Gentiles may be acceptable, sanctified by the holy Spirit.

1 Cor 6:11 That is what some of you used to be; but now you have had yourselves washed, you were sanctified, you were justified in the name of the Lord Jesus Christ and in the Spirit of our God.
Paul continues ... sanctification through faith and baptism makes one belong to God.

Rom 6:19,22 I am speaking in human terms because of the weakness of your nature. For just as you presented the parts of your bodies as slaves to impurity and to lawlessness for lawlessness, so now present them as slaves to righteousness for sanctification. ... But now that you have been freed from sin and have become slaves of God, the benefit that you have leads to sanctification, and its end is eternal life.

The saints are presented to believers as role models whose lives are worthy to be imitated.

Heb 6:12 ... so that you may not become sluggish, but imitators of those who, through faith and patience, are inheriting the promises.

Heb 12:1 Therefore, since we are surrounded by so great a cloud of witnesses, let us rid ourselves of every burden and sin that clings to us and persevere in running the race that lies before us

1 Cor 11:1 Be imitators of me, as I am of Christ.

Phil 3:17 Join with others in being imitators of me, brothers, and observe those who thus conduct themselves according to the model you have in us.

Council of Vatican II, On the Church, No. 50, For when we look at the lives of those who have faithfully followed Christ, we are inspired with a new reason for seeking the city which is to come (Heb 13:14; 11:10). At the same time we are shown a most safe path by which ... we will be able to arrive at perfect union with Christ, that is holiness. In the lives of those who shared in our humanity and yet were transformed into especially successfully images of Christ (2 Cor 3:18), God vividly manifests to men his presence and his face. He speaks to us in them, and gives us a sign of his kingdom, to which we are powerfully drawn, surrounded as we are by so many witnesses (Heb 12:1), and having such an argument for the truth of the gospel.

As part of their belief in the role of the saints as professed in the Apostles Creed, Roman Catholic Christians petition the intercession of the saints.

The apostle Paul frequently asked other fellow believers in Jesus to pray for him.

Col 4:3 At the same time, pray for us, too, that God may open a door to us for the word, to speak of the mystery of Christ, for which I am in prison.

Rom 15:30 ... join me in the struggle by your prayers to God on my behalf,
James asks presbyter believers to pray over other believers.

Jam 5:14 Is anyone among you sick? He should summon the presbyters of the church, and they should pray over him and anoint (him) with oil in the name of the Lord

Prayer appears to be the normal way for believers (saints) on earth to support one another. Probably all of us have asked another Christian, as Paul did--another saint in the Body of Christ--to pray for us when we had a need. Catholic Christians believe that as we can ask a fellow Christian -a saint- to pray for us, we should be able to ask prayers from the saints already united to the Lord in heaven. If the prayers of certain Christians here on earth seem to possess special power because of their great faith witness or holiness, how much more powerful and effective might not the prayers of those of the communion of saints in heaven who are fully united to God.

The beliefs based from above were imparted for the most part orally since the beginning of the Church.

Peace.

:liturgy:

[Peaceful Dove]

It is not from Sacred Scripture alone that the Church draws her certainty about everything that has been revealed but what is following is part of the intrinsic truth of what has been ascertained from Sacred Scripture.

The word in the Bible for "saint" or "saints" is the word (hagios) also translated "sanctified" or "holy ones." The root word hazo, means "to venerate." Hagios means to be separated from sin and therefore consecrated to God.

Hagios is used of God (Lk 1:49; Acts 3:14; Mt 1:18, etc.). It is a word used of men and things (1 Tim 1:9; 1 Pet 2:5,9, etc.)

When Paul uses the word "saint" in the singular, he refers to a state into which God calls men with His grace. Phil 4:21 Give my greetings to every holy one (hagion) in Christ Jesus.

In its plural form, Paul uses the word to refer to all believers. For Paul, the word is not applied only to persons of exceptional holiness, nor to those having died characterized by an exceptional life of saintliness.

Eph 2:19 So then you are no longer strangers and sojourners, but you are fellow citizens with the holy ones (hagios) and members of the household of God,

Rom 12:13 Contribute to the needs of the holy ones, exercise hospitality.

Rom 16:15 Greet Philologus, ... and all the holy ones who are with them.

1 Cor 16:1 Now in regard to the collection for the holy ones, you also should do as I ordered the churches of Galatia.

1 Cor 16:15 I urge you, brothers--you know that the household of Stephanas is the firstfruits of Achaia and that they have devoted themselves to the service of the holy ones--

It is Paul who calls all his fellow believers "saints," and not just the notably holy ones. Paul also uses the term for both those who are living and for those who are dead.

2 Thess 1:9-10 These (who do not acknowledge God nor heed the good news) will pay the penalty of eternal ruin, separated from the presence of the Lord and from the glory of his power, when he comes to be glorified among his holy ones (hagiois) and to be marveled at on that day among all who have believed, for our testimony to you was believed.

Jude 14-15 Enoch, of the seventh generation from Adam, prophesied also about them when he said, "Behold, the Lord has come with his countless holy ones (hagiais) to execute judgment on all and to convict everyone for all the godless deeds that they committed ..."

This practice of Paul corresponds to one of the earliest creedal statements of Christian faith: The Apostles Creed: "I believe in the communion of saints." Communion of saints refers to the bond of unity among all believers, both living and dead, who are or have been committed followers of Jesus Christ.

In the eyes of God, in eternity, the distinction between His People who are "living" or who are "dead" is not at all important.

Mk 9:4 Then Elijah appeared to them along with Moses, and they were conversing with Jesus.

Mk 12:26-27 "As for the dead being raised, have you not read in the Book of Moses, in the passage about the bush, how God told him, 'I am the God of Abraham, (the) God of Isaac, and (the) God of Jacob'? He is not God of the dead but of the living. You are greatly misled."

Lk 23:43 He replied to him (the crucified thief) "Amen, I say to you, today you will be with me in Paradise."

Rom 12:5 ... so we, though many, are one body in Christ and individually parts of one another. On the Church,

No. 49, Vatican II At the present time some of (Jesus') disciples are pilgrims on earth. Others have died and are being purified, while still others are in glory beholding "clearly God himself, three in one, as He is."

Catechism of the Catholic Church, Section 1474 The life of each of God's children is joined in Christ and through Christ in a wonderful way to the life of all the other Christian brethren in the supernatural unity of the Mystical Body of Christ, as in a single mystical person.
Our words "holy" and "holiness" come from the Hebrew (qadosh and qodesh) from the Greek (hagios, hagiosyne) and the Latin (sanctitas, sacer, sanctus).

Essentially holy means what is divine and pertains to God. It is His most intimate essence in which He radically transcends all that is created; totally Other. Holiness extends to whatever is in relationship with the divine; it includes the idea of separation and opposition to what is profane and common; it expresses the idea of belonging to or being possessed by God.

Lev 11:44 For I, the LORD, am your God; and you shall make and keep yourselves holy, because I am holy. ... Since I, the LORD, brought you up from the land of Egypt that I might be your God, you shall be holy, because I am holy.

Lev 19:2 Speak to the whole Israelite community and tell them: Be holy, for I, the LORD your God, am holy.

Hosea 11:9 For I am God and not man, the Holy One present among you.

1 Peter 1:15 As he who called you is holy, be holy yourselves in every aspect of your conduct, for it is written, "Be holy because I (am) holy."

Heb 12:14 Strive for peace with everyone, and for that holiness without which no one will see the Lord.

1 Thes 4:3 This is the will of God, your holiness ... Matt 5:48 So be perfect, just as your heavenly Father is perfect.

As Paul writes, in each individual, sanctification takes place through faith and baptism.

Rom 15:16 ... to be a minister of Christ Jesus to the Gentiles in performing the priestly service of the gospel of God, so that the offering up of the Gentiles may be acceptable, sanctified by the holy Spirit.

1 Cor 6:11 That is what some of you used to be; but now you have had yourselves washed, you were sanctified, you were justified in the name of the Lord Jesus Christ and in the Spirit of our God.
Paul continues ... sanctification through faith and baptism makes one belong to God.

Rom 6:19,22 I am speaking in human terms because of the weakness of your nature. For just as you presented the parts of your bodies as slaves to impurity and to lawlessness for lawlessness, so now present them as slaves to righteousness for sanctification. ... But now that you have been freed from sin and have become slaves of God, the benefit that you have leads to sanctification, and its end is eternal life.

The saints are presented to believers as role models whose lives are worthy to be imitated.

Heb 6:12 ... so that you may not become sluggish, but imitators of those who, through faith and patience, are inheriting the promises.

Heb 12:1 Therefore, since we are surrounded by so great a cloud of witnesses, let us rid ourselves of every burden and sin that clings to us and persevere in running the race that lies before us

1 Cor 11:1 Be imitators of me, as I am of Christ.

Phil 3:17 Join with others in being imitators of me, brothers, and observe those who thus conduct themselves according to the model you have in us.

Council of Vatican II, On the Church, No. 50, For when we look at the lives of those who have faithfully followed Christ, we are inspired with a new reason for seeking the city which is to come (Heb 13:14; 11:10). At the same time we are shown a most safe path by which ... we will be able to arrive at perfect union with Christ, that is holiness. In the lives of those who shared in our humanity and yet were transformed into especially successfully images of Christ (2 Cor 3:18), God vividly manifests to men his presence and his face. He speaks to us in them, and gives us a sign of his kingdom, to which we are powerfully drawn, surrounded as we are by so many witnesses (Heb 12:1), and having such an argument for the truth of the gospel.

As part of their belief in the role of the saints as professed in the Apostles Creed, Roman Catholic Christians petition the intercession of the saints.

The apostle Paul frequently asked other fellow believers in Jesus to pray for him.

Col 4:3 At the same time, pray for us, too, that God may open a door to us for the word, to speak of the mystery of Christ, for which I am in prison.

Rom 15:30 ... join me in the struggle by your prayers to God on my behalf,
James asks presbyter believers to pray over other believers.

Jam 5:14 Is anyone among you sick? He should summon the presbyters of the church, and they should pray over him and anoint (him) with oil in the name of the Lord

Prayer appears to be the normal way for believers (saints) on earth to support one another. Probably all of us have asked another Christian, as Paul did--another saint in the Body of Christ--to pray for us when we had a need. Catholic Christians believe that as we can ask a fellow Christian -a saint- to pray for us, we should be able to ask prayers from the saints already united to the Lord in heaven. If the prayers of certain Christians here on earth seem to possess special power because of their great faith witness or holiness, how much more powerful and effective might not the prayers of those of the communion of saints in heaven who are fully united to God.

The beliefs based from above were imparted for the most part orally since the beginning of the Church.

Peace.

:liturgy:
That is a nice explanation. Thank you.

[JoabAnias]

That is a nice explanation. Thank you.

My pleasure sister.

[Peaceful Dove]

My pleasure sister.

Thank you.

Did you have a favorite Psalm to post in the Psalm thread?

[JoabAnias]

Thank you.

Did you have a favorite Psalm to post in the Psalm thread?

Yes I do:

Psa 23:4 For though I should walk in the midst of the shadow of death, I will fear no evils, for thou art with me. Thy rod and thy staff, they have comforted me.

I will go post it over there.

[Peaceful Dove]

Yes I do:

Psa 23:4 For though I should walk in the midst of the shadow of death, I will fear no evils, for thou art with me. Thy rod and thy staff, they have comforted me.

I will go post it over there.

I love that Psalm, too.
Thank you

[CatholicFlame]

Blessed be the Lord! Blessed be the Lord! The God of Mercy, the God who saves,

I shall not fear,

the dark of night!

nor the arrow!

that fies by day!

I love that song when we sing it as the recessional. I just love it!!!

Don't you guys know taht one too?

Sing with me!

[Peaceful Dove]

Blessed be the Lord! Blessed be the Lord! The God of Mercy, the God who saves,

I shall not fear,

the dark of night!

nor the arrow!

that fies by day!

I love that song when we sing it as the recessional. I just love it!!!

Don't you guys know taht one too?

Sing with me!

I am singing with you. I love this song.

[CatholicFlame]

http://www.smileyme.com/cool_stickers_christian_stickers_reward_stickers_sticker_world_stickers_galore/stickers_smiley_face_sticker.gif

Lord may we sing together

[Peaceful Dove]

http://www.smileyme.com/cool_stickers_christian_stickers_reward_stickers_sticker_world_stickers_galore/stickers_smiley_face_sticker.gif

Lord may we sing together

Whooeee! We are a virtual choir!

[CatholicFlame]

heehee Singing in full color for Jesus!

[hawko]

I happen to have a book, "The Churches Most Powerful Novenas". I have prayed with and asked for the intercessions of the saints for years. Not one prayer has gone unanswered. Some are answered more quickly than others. But I believe that is because of God will and praying from the heart.

The Saints that have prayed with me and interceded the most in my life are St. Michael, St. Peter, St. Joseph, St. Philomena, St. Joan of Arch, St. George, St. Hildegard, Blessed Kateri Tekakwitha, Mother Theresa and Pope John Paul II.

I have countless praise reports on the help of their prayers united to my own (to many to even begin to tell). I believe the saints pray with us, interceding in such a powerful, holy and pure way. I believe they take our prayers with them before the throne of God.

Yes I do go directly to our Lord in prayer. I also feel there is power with prayer in unity with others. So why not ask for the most holy of people (The communion of Saints), to pray with us. Peace and Blessings
A few years back, I had a personal experience involving Kateri Tekakwitha. It was a Friday, and I had just gone to confession before daily mass. I was reflecting on my sins and upset that I was continually weak in one area of my life. I knew that my sins were forgiven but I was truly saddened that I was so weak and offended Jesus by my sins repeatedly, even though I had good intentions not to sin. Anyway, I was at mass, and this was my intention; that the Lord would strengthen me especially not to commit this one particular sin. At the consecration of the mass, when the priest held up Jesus, I saw a face of a woman in the Communion Host whom I did not recognize. I asked the Lord, "Who is that ?", and immediately I heard the words, "Kateri Tekakwitha". After mass, I realized, by looking in the missal that today was the feast day of Blessed Kateri Tekakwitha. After mass, I went home and looked up information about Kateri Tekakwitha on my computer, and when I saw her picture, I realized that this was the same face that I had seen in the Communion Host. I continued to read about her life, and printed out a novena to pray for her intercession. It was then that I realized that one of the petitions in her novena was for the exact area of my life that I had difficulty with and continually fell down and sinned. So, ever since then, when I am tempted to sin (in my area of weakness), I say a quick mental prayer to Kateri Tekakwitha, and the temptation goes away immediately. Thank You Jesus for all Your help.

[isabella1]

A few years back, I had a personal experience involving Kateri Tekakwitha. It was a Friday, and I had just gone to confession before daily mass. I was reflecting on my sins and upset that I was continually weak in one area of my life. I knew that my sins were forgiven but I was truly saddened that I was so weak and offended Jesus by my sins repeatedly, even though I had good intentions not to sin. Anyway, I was at mass, and this was my intention; that the Lord would strengthen me especially not to commit this one particular sin. At the consecration of the mass, when the priest held up Jesus, I saw a face of a woman in the Communion Host whom I did not recognize. I asked the Lord, "Who is that ?", and immediately I heard the words, "Kateri Tekakwitha". After mass, I realized, by looking in the missal that today was the feast day of Blessed Kateri Tekakwitha. After mass, I went home and looked up information about Kateri Tekakwitha on my computer, and when I saw her picture, I realized that this was the same face that I had seen in the Communion Host. I continued to read about her life, and printed out a novena to pray for her intercession. It was then that I realized that one of the petitions in her novena was for the exact area of my life that I had difficulty with and continually fell down and sinned. So, ever since then, when I am tempted to sin (in my area of weakness), I say a quick mental prayer to Kateri Tekakwitha, and the temptation goes away immediately. Thank You Jesus for all Your help.
Thanks for sharing. That's pretty powerful. May she always intercede for you. I really love her too. I have a few books on her that I have read, and she has helped me in many ways over and over again. I happen to have a 1st class relic of hers. :) Praise God for the gifts he has given.

I have taken her relic (along with St. Philomenas) to the classrooms of students in Catholic Schools, to talk about their lives and let the children hold the relics.

In the past when I have been very lonely, I would take the relics out, put them in my pocket and say to them, "Ok girlfriends lets go do what girlfriends do, I need some company, lets go shopping." He He. I would hear/feel giggles and laughs, and we would talk the whole time. No I didn't HEAR VOICES. I don't really know how to explain it. They would really keep me company.

I believe they interceded to the Lord for me during a difficult period. They helped to gave me Peace, at a time there was extreme loneliness and pain in my life. Peace and Blessings.

[CatholicFlame]

I just want to mention that through this thread, I have been very blessed.

I have been asking the help of the saints more lately and have really come closer to some of them.

Praise the Lord for this!

[hawko]

Indeed, the saints do intercede for us when we ask them to, but they are also praying for us all the time even without us asking them. There is one church, one body of Christ, which is comprised of the saints in heaven, on earth, and in purgatory. Thank You Jesus for You are our source of holiness.

[CatholicFlame]

We are living in a great mystery aren't we hawko?

[Peaceful Dove]

This is good.

I think there is also a great need for us to pray for one another. I remember my mother in law with her long prayer list and spending every single day in her bedroom praying for at least an hour for everyone on that list.

I know the prayers go on in Heaven, no doubt in my mind. As Church, and the Body of Christ we join with them in prayer for each other.

[CatholicFlame]

Peaceful you only just read our minds. Let us continue to post and pray for each other.

Praise the Lord for this!

[HisKid1973]

Amen, lets fill one of the bowls up in heaven that's presented as worship as unto the Lord..

[Peaceful Dove]

Amen, lets fill one of the bowls up in heaven that's presented as worship as unto the Lord..
Preach it Bro

[hawko]

This is good.

I think there is also a great need for us to pray for one another. I remember my mother in law with her long prayer list and spending every single day in her bedroom praying for at least an hour for everyone on that list.

I know the prayers go on in Heaven, no doubt in my mind. As Church, and the Body of Christ we join with them in prayer for each other.
There's the making of a saint, praying for all those people everyday, your mother-in-law must be in heaven.

[Peaceful Dove]

There's the making of a saint, praying for all those people everyday, your mother-in-law must be in heaven.

I pray that she is.

[isabella1]

Time for me to go and rest in the Lord. I will keep all you saints in the making in my prayers. Can you keep me in your prayers as well. I am having a struggle with loneliness right now. Satan really knows how to pick at the scabs of old wounds. Peace and Blessings.

[HisKid1973]

[quote=isabella1 Satan really knows how to pick at the scabs of old wounds. Peace and Blessings.[/quote]

Isn't that the truth...You just keep reminding him"it is written" About what the scripture says..He called you out of darkness into His marvelous light..You have been bought with a price by the precious blood of Jesus. Greater is He that lives in you then he that is in the world..K

[JoabAnias]

I posted this in another thread and wanted to copy it over here as a point of discussion as I feel it applies very well to this thread as well:

We are not exhaulting anyone who is still on Earth but making a determination that those who have run the race to completion are with the Lord.

Paul's letters clarify how the Apostolic Church under the influence of the Holy Spirit spoke of believers as "saints," whether living in the flesh or alive in Jesus and with Him in heaven.

Paul asked the saints to pray for him and to imitate him.
And as Paul asked saints to imitate him as he imitates Christ, the Church encourages Christians to imitate the holiness of the saints as they imitated the holiness of Christ and the Father.

This practice of Paul corresponds to one of the earliest creedal statements of Christian faith: The Apostles Creed: "I believe in the communion of saints." Communion of saints refers to the bond of unity among all believers, both living and alive in Christ, who are or have been committed followers of Jesus Christ.

Scripture calls us to be Holy in many places (Lev 11:44, Lev 19:2, 1 Peter 1:15, Matt 5:48) and the saints are good examples in how to do so.

The saints examples offers us practical helps to living the example of Jesus. For many the examples of saints are efficatious to urges us on closer to Jesus.

The saints are presented to believers as role models whose lives are worthy to be imitated.

Heb 6:12 ... so that you may not become sluggish, but imitators of those who, through faith and patience, are inheriting the promises.

Heb 12:1 Therefore, since we are surrounded by so great a cloud of witnesses, let us rid ourselves of every burden and sin that clings to us and persevere in running the race that lies before us.

1 Cor 11:1 Be imitators of me, as I am of Christ.

Phil 3:17 Join with others in being imitators of me, brothers, and observe those who thus conduct themselves according to the model you have in us.

This practice of the Church originates with the word "canon" which comes from the Greek word kanon meaning a standard or measuring rod.

The custom of canonization began in the early church by popular acclamation. Hence the custom of calling all the apostles "saint."

The Church applies the standard or measuring rod of holiness of life to certain individuals who lived exemplary Christian lives and through a lengthy process of prayer and study have declared that the individual is in heaven.

The Church does not "create" saints, but simply applies the standard of gospel holiness to those God permits the Church to know are in heaven with Him.

Catechism of the Catholic Church, Section 1474 - The life of each of God's children is joined in Christ and through Christ in a wonderful way to the life of all the other Christian brethren in the supernatural unity of the Mystical Body of Christ, as in a single mystical person.

Peace to you my friendly saints. (or saint in the making as I am if you prefer).

[HisKid1973]

*

[JoabAnias]

*

[HisKid1973]

How so when such assurance (after the spirits are tested thorougly) builds up?

Do you think we are wrong to canonize the Apostles? (save Jude). The practice remains the same, though the manner has developed. Its not a matter taken lightly to determine that someone is most likely in heaven. There is a strict criteria in determining the fate of the souls of the just. It's an assurance that gives us hope and confidence in those examples of Faith.

Peace.

Personally if the scriptures made capitol "S" saints then I have no issue for it...I just think it was man's idea.. There nothing wrong with recognizing them from their fruits and labors, but if you take notice in the past mistakes were made . But we know the scriptures give us what is a given..shalom..Kim

Again I have no problem with the issue, but of the canonization process and "guidelines".

[JoabAnias]

Personally if the scriptures made capitol "S" saints then I have no issue for it...I just think it was man's idea.. There nothing wrong with recognizing them from their fruits and labors, but if you take notice in the past mistakes were made . But we know the scriptures give us what is a given..shalom..Kim

Again I have no problem with the issue, but of the canonization process and "guidelines".

Ah yes, I understand. The Church had the same difficulty developing the canon of scripture too. But aren't you glad they didn't stop trying until they got it right?

"Bible" is a capital word also not found in scripture as is Trinity. See what I mean?

Peace.

[isabella1]

Isn't that the truth...You just keep reminding him"it is written" About what the scripture says..He called you out of darkness into His marvelous light..You have been bought with a price by the precious blood of Jesus. Greater is He that lives in you then he that is in the world..K
Thanks. I needed that reminder. I asked the saints to intercede for me and to keep me company, and they sure did! I feel at peace now. :) Blessings to you.

[JoabAnias]

Again I have no problem with the issue, but of the canonization process and "guidelines".

Lets take it up, I think I noticed where they were revised (unsure how recently).

I believe they are easily findable on www.vatican.va (http://www.vatican.va)

Let me know if this helps. I will refresh my knowlege on the canonization process later. Gotta get going atm.

Peace bro.

[HisKid1973]

Lets take it up, I think I noticed where they were revised (unsure how recently).

I believe they are easily findable on www.vatican.va (http://www.vatican.va)

Let me know if this helps. I will refresh my knowlege on the canonization process later. Gotta get going atm.

Peace bro.

Sorry Bro. I can't ..I just got this post reported for arguing with you..

[JoabAnias]

Sorry Bro. I can't ..I just got this post reported for arguing with you..

Oh well. Surly we don't want to cause divisions. I can see how that topic could degenerate into such.

If you would like to discuss it further or would like the orthodox information on the process feel free to PM me.

Peace.

[MoNiCa4316]

I'd like to share some of my thoughts on this =)

I usually pray to God and of course there can never ever be anything wrong with that. I think that if someone wants to only pray to God, that's perfectly fine. :) The only other person I've ever prayed to is the Virgin Mary when I prayed the Rosary, and a couple of times when I needed help and asked her for prayers.

But I do believe that people in heaven pray for us, because they are united with God who is love, and so they love us and want to see us saved (as CF said on page 1). Can they hear our prayers? lol I'm afraid I don't know enough theology to answer that question.

I think that since they are in heaven...their prayers are really powerful because the devil can't interfere with them. I dunno about you but I believe in spiritual warfare, and that satan would do anything to distract us from prayer...the Bible says that the prayer of a righteous man avails much...well in heaven they are righteous and pray with perfect faith =)

I also believe that there's something in praying with other believers. Christ said that whenever two or three are gathered in His name, He is there... no doubt that God hears our private prayers as much as the other ones and responds...of course! But there does seem to be something in praying with others. Well when we pray along with the saints in heaven, that can be really powerful.

I think it was CS Lewis who often added "with the angels and all the hosts of heaven" when he said the Lord's Prayer. That's kinda like worship too... we add our little voices to the prayers of the blessed ones who are in God's presence. =)

I guess I'm getting kinda mystical here lol. But I really believe in the 'cloud of witnesses' too.

By the way....do you guys usually pray to the Father or to Jesus? Or to the whole Trinity? :confused: Many of my friends only pray to the Father, and lol obviously I do too...but some of my prayers are specifically to Jesus. They are all One anyway..so does it matter? I'm kinda confused. Some people have told me that we shouldn't pray to Jesus, but only in "Jesus' name"..which I do too, but how can it be wrong to ever talk to Him? I find that a little strange. I pray to the Holy Spirit too sometimes. lol.

Oooh I just remembered something else: in the Bible it says that the Holy Spirit intercedes for us...anyone else find that really awesome? :D I love the Holy Spirit lol.

oki I'm done my super long post :)

God bless

monica

[JoabAnias]

They are all One anyway..so does it matter?


The Jews used to think it was a sin just to mention the name of God/Abba/Adonni etc etc.

Jesus changed all that in the new covenant by opening all of heaven to us and making us Children of God.

Think of Heaven as a family. God the Father is our Dad, Jesus our brother granted equality to the Father from the Father, Holy Spirit as a spouse and Love incarnite between them and Mary as mother of Jesus though still human but through whom always points to God and what she asks of the Son is not refused and what is asked of the Father from the Son is neither refused.

Peace.

[CatholicFlame]

Hmm,

I had a word from the Lord yesturday in chapel about this topic. I feel like it was for you specifically Hiskid but I am sure that we can all gain from it. Well it was basically an answer to something you asked about if the saints can hear our prayers and isn't that something like saying they are like God. In retrospect I can understand why it sounds like this would mean that the saints are all-knowing or something like that. They really aren't of course.

Well, do you know the word I got? LOL, it was "telephone"!

Praying to the saints for help is like making a telephone call really long distance to ask for someone's prayer!

LOL! God is so hilarious to tell me that!

[isabella1]

Sorry Bro. I can't ..I just got this post reported for arguing with you..
WHAT Happened??? I am real sensitive to debate issues and I can't really see where there was any arguments? I have learned a lot from your posts, hope that won't stop you from coming back. Peace and Blessings.

[HisKid1973]

WHAT Happened??? I am real sensitive to debate issues and I can't really see where there was any arguments? I have learned a lot from your posts, hope that won't stop you from coming back. Peace and Blessings.

Hey no problem. I'm like your resident
fundygelical..I commented that I thought the whole capital S saith thing was more of a manmade idea to do rather than something thet was practiced by the church in Acts...Somebody didn't like it I suppose..Bless you and thank you for your encouragement..shalom..KIm

[isabella1]

The Jews used to think it was a sin just to mention the name of God/Abba/Adonni etc etc.

Jesus changed all that in the new covenant by opening all of heaven to us and making us Children of God.

Think of Heaven as a family. God the Father is our Dad, Jesus our brother granted equality to the Father from the Father, Holy Spirit as a spouse and Love incarnite between them and Mary as mother of Jesus though still human but through whom always points to God and what she asks of the Son is not refused and what is asked of the Father from the Son is neither refused.

Peace.
I like what Joab says here Monica. When I was little and even sometimes now even at my age (LOL), when I went to my Father to ask him something, like a request or forgiveness for something done wrong, I would be a little nervous. But I also take great comfort in knowing he will always be there, and I rely on his strangth and protection.

When I go to a brother (if I had one), how much easier it would be to talk to him, to tell him anything and everything. To love him unconditionally even through the arguments.

Then there is my Mother. When I looked at my baby in my arms while rocking her (many years ago now she is 16), I could not explain the love I had for her, I looked at her and said, "Ah, so this is how much my Mother loves me". I never really got it until that moment.

The mother will defend her baby until death, she will love, protect, nourish and cherish her child forever. That is how much our Heavenly Mother Loves us, and then some. She is constantly interceding for us. We use the rosary prayers for her intercessions. Who do we go to when we have a boo, boo? Who do we go to when we know our father will be mad at us? Who will a young man warm up to, and try to win favor with, when he is trying to court a young lady? It is only natural to go to the Mother. God did not make a mistake in giving us a Heavenly mother. It is within our spirit already (the knowing of this gift from God), this is how God made us, to go to our Mother at times for her intercessions and Motherly Love. Anyhow, this is what the Holy Spirit and the Church have taught me. Just wanted to share it with you. Peace and Blessings.

[isabella1]

Hey no problem. I'm like your resident
fundygelical..I commented that I thought the whole capital S saith thing was more of a manmade idea to do rather than something thet was practiced by the church in Acts...Somebody didn't like it I suppose..Bless you and thank you for your encouragement..shalom..KIm
Ah, I see. Well glad your sticking around.

[ladybug1980]

one thing I cannot understand:

If the devil and his demons can hear every prayer we utter to God, doesn't it go without saying that God and his angels and the saints in Heaven, who are infinitely superior to Satan and his demons, can hear our prayers?

Or am I barking up the wrong tree here? Surely if Satan knows everything we are saying or doing, the Saints in Heaven are not ripped of that "prerogative."

[Peaceful Dove]

one thing I cannot understand:

If the devil and his demons can hear every prayer we utter to God, doesn't it go without saying that God and his angels and the saints in Heaven, who are infinitely superior to Satan and his demons, can hear our prayers?

Or am I barking up the wrong tree here? Surely if Satan knows everything we are saying or doing, the Saints in Heaven are not ripped of that "prerogative."

This is a very good point and sets us up for another question.

We have been taught in the Charismatic Renewal, that when we pray in tongues, only God can understand what we say, since the Holy Spirit is praying through us.

We do not believe Satan can understand our prayer language.
How about Gods angels and saints?
Do you believe they understand?

[ladybug1980]

This is a very good point and sets us up for another question.

We have been taught in the Charismatic Renewal, that when we pray in tongues, only God can understand what we say, since the Holy Spirit is praying through us.

We do not believe Satan can understand our prayer language.
How about Gods angels and saints?
Do you believe they understand?
Oh. See, I don't know anything about the charismatic stuff. The title of this thread caught my eye, I saw some responses to it, and then I put in my piece of the pie:)

I didn't know Satan could not understand our prayer language. I did think that he could hear everything we say and see whatever we are doing, which led me to make that assumption.

As far as God is concerned, he definitely understands our prayers, and as for the angels/saints, I was trying to determine this based on what I thought the "enemy" knew about us.

[CatholicFlame]

I would say yes that the angels and saints understand our prayer language. After all they themselves must have the gift of deeeeep praise, deeper than ours is right now. So I surely believe that our prayer in tongues is like child's play compared to what they do in Heaven.

Hmm, Peaceful why do you believe that the devil and demons cannot understand our prayer language? I have heard this before but I am not sure if I have heard a reason why we believe this.

I am not saying that I don't agree, because somehow I think I do, but I just don't know the reasoning behind it.

Thanks for this interesting topic!

peace be with us all here

[HisKid1973]

Yes I am curious as what she has to say also...But I have some ideas also..Satan was booted to this heaven/earthly realm..I can imagine He has to be allowed if he want s to enter say the 3rd heavens.....We are to bringout though life to the obedience of Christ but I don't see where satan has access to it..He lays snares for us so I can imagine we are watched to see if we fall then he can be an accusor of the brethern....I can imagine he hones in on our audible speech but can't hear the groanings and heartfelt prayers that only are viable with God's attributes..

[JoabAnias]

I can imagine we are watched to see if we fall then he can be an accusor of the brethern.

Prayers to St. Michael and the choirs for protection comming right up. ;)

[JoabAnias]

I would say yes that the angels and saints understand our prayer language. After all they themselves must have the gift of deeeeep praise, deeper than ours is right now. So I surely believe that our prayer in tongues is like child's play compared to what they do in Heaven.

Hmm, Peaceful why do you believe that the devil and demons cannot understand our prayer language? I have heard this before but I am not sure if I have heard a reason why we believe this.

I am not saying that I don't agree, because somehow I think I do, but I just don't know the reasoning behind it.

Thanks for this interesting topic!

peace be with us all here

I think that would make sense because prayer language isn't and intelligible language. While other tongues are and thats when satan will try and trick someone into a false interpretation. This is why its important to confirm an interpretation. Whereby prayer language is a prayer from the Heart and since satan isn't allowed to read our minds, God and all those by virtue of being united to Him would know whats in our minds and hearts at that time.

Peace.