God the Mother???

[LuxPerpetua]

Recently I have heard quite a few people refer to God as "mother," and I must say that this has just ultimately bugged me. However, I was reading Proverbs the other day and, in my translation, Wisdom is presented as being female and is referred to as a "she; also in the New Testament, God is presented as simply "spirit," and in Genesis it states that in His image He created both male and female. :confused: When I've talked with other people, they've said that the Scriptures are patriarchal and so Jesus' references to God as "Father" don't really count since the Gospels were recorded by men long after Jesus died and therefore reflect the patriarchal views of ancient Jewish and Greek society. I firmly believe, though, that the Scriptures, as we have them now, are the closest we have to real truth and so we should follow the Scriptures as carefully as possible, including referring to God as "Father/He." Also, at no time in church history/tradition has God been viewed as female, and Jesus (as God incarnate) was male. :scratch:

What do you think--am I being too picky over the gender that we use to refer to God? --do you think it matters whether we call God "our heavenly mother" or "our heavenly father?" This issue really has been bothering me a lot, but I may just be too sensitive. I'd love to hear your thoughts. :)

[Lexluther]

Personally, I think it foolish to assume that God has any particular gender. For us, gender is culturally defined in most cases, with biological principles guiding. Since God the Father (or Mother, whichever) is infinite and without boundaries, God can have no biology. Nor does God belong to any human culture. How would you decide? Referring to God as He is a convenience of pronoun.

I certainly believe that God loves, and understands the hearts of, all of His children equally regardless of gender. And He does have feminine qualities. He created all of us, no? If this does not convince you, consider this snippet from Deuteronomy: (NIV)

"He guarded him as the apple of his eye,

11 like an eagle that stirs up its nest
and hovers over its young,
that spreads its wings to catch them
and carries them on its pinions.

13 He made him ride on the heights of the land
and fed him with the fruit of the fields.
He nourished him with honey from the rock,
and with oil from the flinty crag,

14 with curds and milk from herd and flock
and with fattened lambs and goats,
with choice rams of Bashan
and the finest kernels of wheat.
You drank the foaming blood of the grape.

15 Jeshurun grew fat and kicked;
filled with food, he became heavy and sleek.
He abandoned the God who made him
and rejected the Rock his Savior."

While the masculine pronoun is used, the process of nesting, giving birth, and giving milk to a child only to have them walk away when they grow up sure sounds like a description of motherhood to me.

[JVAC]

I don't like to think of God the Father as feminine because in my system of thinking, that would make him a lesbian when he infested the blessed Virgin with His Spirit and created the Word Incarnate.

Personally, I think it foolish to assume that God has any particular gender
I appreciate this comment! I do think that God is a lot greater than me and I cannot comprehend something so great.




I am just content with God the Father, Son and Holy Ghost, the almighty three in one!

-James

[Protoevangel]

I don't like to think of God the Father as feminine because in my system of thinking, that would make him a lesbian when he infested the blessed Virgin with His Spirit and created the Word Incarnate.
Was God the Father carnal or lustful with Mary? Or was she truly a virgin when she concieved?
If you were being tongue-in-cheek, I apologize for my simplemindedness.

[JVAC]

Was God the Father carnal or lustful with Mary? Or was she truly a virgin when she concieved?
If you were being tongue-in-cheek, I apologize for my simplemindedness.
Your simplemindedness? What is tounge-in-cheek?????? (I have heard it used, but don't know its deffinition, I am a little dense)

I don't think God was carnal or lustful, and I do know she was truly Virgin, it wasn't a natural birth. I just have a problem with the thought of Mother God and Mother Mary coming together to concieve baby Jesus.

-James

[Lexluther]

I don't think God was carnal or lustful, and I do know she was truly Virgin, it wasn't a natural birth. I just have a problem with the thought of Mother God and Mother Mary coming together to concieve baby Jesus.



Well, while I don't think it is really an issue, one might look at it this way: If the conception of Christ did not involve sperm and so forth but rather an equally creative entity, might it not indicate a level of spiritual affinity, as much it would a spiritual complement? But I don't really claim to understand the specifics of the virgin birth.

[Protoevangel]

Your simplemindedness? What is tounge-in-cheek?????? (I have heard it used, but don't know its deffinition, I am a little dense)Tongue-in-cheek is a form of sarcasm or kidding around.

I was kind of confused by your statement:

I don't like to think of God the Father as feminine because in my system of thinking, that would make him a lesbian when he infested the blessed Virgin with His Spirit and created the Word Incarnate.It seems to me that any term regarding sexual orientation is inapplicable regarding the virgin birth. That's why I thought you might just be kidding around.

[ChiRho]

Q: How do we know that God is male and not female?



--------------------------------------------------------------------------------

A: God is spirit (John 4:24) and, to the best of our knowledge and understanding, not a "sexual being" in the same way his creatures are. So we do not say or maintain that the Christian faith requires us to say that "God is male" in that sense. It would not be false doctrine to say that God is an asexual personal Being.

We also know that God, in revealing himself to mankind, consistently chose to use male terms concerning himself (Father, Son, masculine pronouns, etc.). And we know that when the Son of God became a human being, he became a male person and remains so. It is also true that he sometimes uses feminine picture language to describe his activities among us, as in Matthew 23:37.

When we speak about God it is our privilege and responsibility to remain true to his self-revelation, so we retain the male vocabulary and terminology that he uses in his Word. We believe that we have no right or ability to try to improve on his manner of making himself known to us. Therefore we refer to God as male in that sense.

[thereselittleflower]

I think this is where undertanding the Early Church Fathers on such an issue is very helpful . . .


Peace in Him!

[Bulldog]

Sounds very odd considiring the Bible uses masculine words to describe God.

Any particular quotes from the the early church fathers, therese?

[thereselittleflower]

It starts with the Creeds of the Church

The Apostle's and Nicene Creeds:

"I BELIEVE in God the Father Almighty"
I will see what I can dig up specifically regarding this in Early Church Fathers' writings . .


Peace in Him!

[InnerPhyre]

Does anyone here see a problem with referring to the conception of our Lord as an infestation?

[Eusebios]

Does anyone here see a problem with referring to the conception of our Lord as an infestation?
It does seem like odd terminology to me, JVAC?
Peace,
Eusebios.

[thereselittleflower]

Q: How do we know that God is male and not female?



--------------------------------------------------------------------------------

A: God is spirit (John 4:24) and, to the best of our knowledge and understanding, not a "sexual being" in the same way his creatures are. So we do not say or maintain that the Christian faith requires us to say that "God is male" in that sense. It would not be false doctrine to say that God is an asexual personal Being.

We also know that God, in revealing himself to mankind, consistently chose to use male terms concerning himself (Father, Son, masculine pronouns, etc.). And we know that when the Son of God became a human being, he became a male person and remains so. It is also true that he sometimes uses feminine picture language to describe his activities among us, as in Matthew 23:37.

When we speak about God it is our privilege and responsibility to remain true to his self-revelation, so we retain the male vocabulary and terminology that he uses in his Word. We believe that we have no right or ability to try to improve on his manner of making himself known to us. Therefore we refer to God as male in that sense.
I completely agree . . . and you never see God referred to as "she" either in Scripture, or by the Early Church Fathers . ..


Peace in Him!

[Protoevangel]

Does anyone here see a problem with referring to the conception of our Lord as an infestation?
I figured he was typing fast and it came out wrong. I am pretty certian that James did not intend to indicate anything hostile or parasitic or anything like that.

[Protoevangel]

Q: How do we know that God is male and not female?



--------------------------------------------------------------------------------

A: God is spirit (John 4:24) and, to the best of our knowledge and understanding, not a "sexual being" in the same way his creatures are. So we do not say or maintain that the Christian faith requires us to say that "God is male" in that sense. It would not be false doctrine to say that God is an asexual personal Being.

We also know that God, in revealing himself to mankind, consistently chose to use male terms concerning himself (Father, Son, masculine pronouns, etc.). And we know that when the Son of God became a human being, he became a male person and remains so. It is also true that he sometimes uses feminine picture language to describe his activities among us, as in Matthew 23:37.

When we speak about God it is our privilege and responsibility to remain true to his self-revelation, so we retain the male vocabulary and terminology that he uses in his Word. We believe that we have no right or ability to try to improve on his manner of making himself known to us. Therefore we refer to God as male in that sense.I haven't been to the WELS Topical Q&A site in quite a while. Thank you for bringing that for us. I like the way they answer the question, and I would have to fully concur with their conclusion.

The first sentence is is important to remember, though. God is spirit (John 4:24) and, to the best of our knowledge and understanding, not a "sexual being" in the same way his creatures are.

[Phoebe]

Actually, male birds do provide a great deal of care to the young. They're the ones going for food and feeding the young. Sometimes they sit on the eggs.

[The Lord is my banner]

God transcends gender, and therefore is neither male nor female, but has the best of all the qualities that we would attribute to both sexes.
Eg. the gentle and nurturing qualities we see as feminine, the strength and authority we see as masculine. But God posseses all of these qualities with more besides in complete perfection.

It seems to me that asking if God is male or female is a little like asking how old He is, or what colour His hair is. He's just so way beyond all of that.

At the same time, I do believe that He is our Father. For instance, there is something particular in the relationship of a father, which leads to our adoption as sons and heirs. I'm a woman, but am also a son! I have the "legal" rights and priviledges of a son.

And Jesus always called God Father and taught us to do the same. He always showed love and respect towards women, but He didn't say God can be your mother. So there is obviously a reason for it.

:scratch: Maybe someone else can explain better - I'm getting stuck now, but I know there's a lot to this!

Blessings, Susana

[Pilgrim 33]

God does not possess our best qualities.
We possess (or, did possess) some of His best qualities.
It is humanistic to assign God our qualities.

[JVAC]

It does seem like odd terminology to me, JVAC?
Let's see how fast I can back pedal ;) .

It probably is odd, I should have said something like overshaddowed, or overpowered.


But I stand by this:
I just have a problem with the thought of Mother God and Mother Mary coming together to concieve baby Jesus.
-James

[LynneClomina]

i kind of look at it this way....

when God created Adam, he evidently had both the make a female qualities - becuase eve was taken from him and they were man/woman, and becuase MAN ("adam") is the word used for all mankind, too.

so, God is a "man", (by definition, of the pre-eve sort! ^_^ ) composed of both make and female aspects....

Father God was the "original", so to speak, and we are "of" Him, as Eve was made of Adam's rib....

if we are the Bride, (feminine) then our Bridegroom MUST be "male".

God has the authority over His household - us, as husbands are to over their wives (if you believe that, anyways).

God DID "overshadow" Mary - a woman, so yeah, God BETTER be a male!!!! :wave:

so i think that to call God a Mother or a female is in complete denial and rejection of how scripture shows us God!

(there IS the mother hen aspect of God - but it is an ASPECT - not His whole, general nature.)

[FaithinHIM1968]

I thought God was neither man nor woman but a Spirit?

[The Lord is my banner]

God does not possess our best qualities.
We possess (or, did possess) some of His best qualities.
It is humanistic to assign God our qualities.

I am definitely NOT saying God gains His qualities from us. :eek:

It's obviously the other way round.

Please re-read my post, and if I still come across as a mad heretic tell me so I can delete it.

Blessings, Susana

[Jenna]

Recently I have heard quite a few people refer to God as "mother," and I must say that this has just ultimately bugged me. However, I was reading Proverbs the other day and, in my translation, Wisdom is presented as being female and is referred to as a "she; also in the New Testament, God is presented as simply "spirit," and in Genesis it states that in His image He created both male and female. :confused: When I've talked with other people, they've said that the Scriptures are patriarchal and so Jesus' references to God as "Father" don't really count since the Gospels were recorded by men long after Jesus died and therefore reflect the patriarchal views of ancient Jewish and Greek society. I firmly believe, though, that the Scriptures, as we have them now, are the closest we have to real truth and so we should follow the Scriptures as carefully as possible, including referring to God as "Father/He." Also, at no time in church history/tradition has God been viewed as female, and Jesus (as God incarnate) was male. :scratch:

What do you think--am I being too picky over the gender that we use to refer to God? --do you think it matters whether we call God "our heavenly mother" or "our heavenly father?" This issue really has been bothering me a lot, but I may just be too sensitive. I'd love to hear your thoughts. :)

I perfer to think of God as being more, and beyond, gender. That said, if God wishes to be referred to in a male persona, then who am I to say otherwise? lol Jesus teaches us how to pray, and He uses the term "Father" many times, and not 'mother'. So, I am most comfortable in referring to God as HE chooses, as it is written in His Word. I think that in some circles, the gender issue is taken too far. So many women have a problem having a male God, which is one of the biggest issues that has been brought up in my company by pagans who choose their own. It strikes me as a kind of silly idea that we (as women) need to have a diety of the same gender to be able to relate and have a close relationship, that somehow we are more removed because God chooses to refer to Himself in a manner that relates to the male of our species most directly. We're all the beloved of God, and we're all special as He created us. So, there is no need to change anything in order to relate, at least in my eyes.

OK, I just re-read what I wrote, and I just wanted to say that it isn't meant to be inflammitory at all, and I'm not pointing fingers. :) I'm just babbling, going off on a tangent. lol I'm good for that......

[ps139]

A friend of mine, Pastor J. Grant Swank, wrote this article addressing this issue:

To refer to God as Mother is to eventually bring about a lesbian tie between worshiper and deity.

In the New Testament, believers are referred to in the feminine context as being "the Bride" of God through Christ. Christ is referred to as the Groom. Therefore, believers are pictured being spiritually married to deity through Christ.

In the Old Testament, God speaks of Himself as being married to the Hebrews. When they disobeyed Him, He spoke of having to divorce them because of their going after other loves.

Since in both Testaments, believers in the God of the Bible are referred to in the feminine sense as being the wife of God, God thereby is referred to in the masculine sense. Logically, then, deity is spoken of by masculine pronouns well as being Father.

By the Bible speaking of the divine as masculine does not conclude in any sense that deity has genitals nor gender. God has need of no sexual relationship for He is above such necessity. God has no gender for He has characteristics which are both masculine and feminine.

Numerous contexts in Scripture reveal His masculine imprint. Less numerous passages speak to His feminine imprint. These include Jesus, being God, pining over Jerusalem not coming to Him for protection as a chicken would desire her chicks to come under her wings.

Also, when Jesus spoke of one being born again, He was obviously referring to the feminine giving birth to a child. Naturally, Jesus was using literal birth as an analogy to spiritual birth; nevertheless, the mothering context is evident. Jesus invites us to be born again by way of the womb of divine grace.

Further, when Genesis records that deity created Adam and Eve in divinity's image, this obviously conveys both masculine and feminine natures in deity Himself. As He imprinted Adam with His masculinity, so God imprinted Eve with His femininity. God is both, yet above both.

However, when it comes to naming God with feminine terms, one then distorts Scripture to a perverse relationship between worshiper and deity. For example, to state Mother God is to thereby bring worshiper as Bride into a tie with a feminine lover. This is spiritual lesbianism.

When the Bible speaks of God as Groom, it speaks of worshipers as Bride. This is the logical workout of the use of terms. It is a proper balance when using analogy and language.

To change God terms from masculine to feminine is to twist the very core of Scripture's message. In doing so, one twists the implication as well. From then on out, it is impossible to gain the real call of God concerning salvation.

God as Groom calls forth His bride. God as Mother cannot call forth her bride. With slight of hand, revisionists corrupt the Word's offer to become spiritually intimate with God--that is, experiencing His indwelling Holy Spirit.

There are those who champion feminine terms for deity who claim that the New testament writers in particular were sexists in their language use. This cannot be further from the truth. What is so obvious is totally ignored. It is that New Testament devotees are called "the Bride."

That means that first century readers were told that they--both MASCULINE and feminine--were going henceforth to be referred to by the feminine term "Bride." Is this sexist? Hardly.

Yet no protest came forth from the Early Church. The Christians accepted the divine truth as making sense.

Only now in the twentieth century will some misinformed zealots "discover" this flaw of terms in Scripture. So they conclude that the New Testament writers were chauvinistic. Such is evidently just the opposite.

The truth is that when one comes to the Bible with a preconceived prejudice--for example, holding that New Testament writers were sexist--he/she cannot see what is obviously the true message.

The Bible has no sexist ax to grind. It simply sets forth revelation which makes sense, that is, God is referred to as masculine for He saves His love, referred to as feminine.

When it works, don't fix it.


This article was taken from: http://mensnewsdaily.com/archive/s/...swank100102.htm (http://mensnewsdaily.com/archive/s/swank/02/swank100102.htm)

[wonder111]

God does not possess our best qualities.
We possess (or, did possess) some of His best qualities.
It is humanistic to assign God our qualities.

:) God is so far beyond our little brains understanding. God is spirit, that is important to remember

[wonder111]

good points ps139!

[plum]

I truly don't believe we can have a sliver of a concept of what God is like here on Earth. He is so far above our ways, our measly definitions. Do we think that He is boxed at all into our concepts of male and female much less anything else? He has gifted us with what our minds can fathom by personifying Himself in the Scriptures. I believe when we come into full Communion with Him in Heaven we will finally recognize how male AND female are in the image of the full God. He will be so much more than what we imagine.

[LuxPerpetua]

I totally agree that God is spirit and not masculine or feminine in the way that we are, but my biggest problem lately is that people I'm around (both male and female, including both of my current pastors) continue to refer to God as "she" rather than "he." I've always figured that if Jesus called God "Father," who am I to do otherwise? I don't know if it is "wrong" to call God "mother" but it just makes me uncomfortable--epsecially in light of both Scriptural evidence and church tradition. I'm thinking this whole God-as-mother thing is a modern attempt to sanitize Christianity for a pc-obsessed society. I personally know people who, when singing the doxology, refer not to "the Father, Son, and Holy Ghost," but rather "the Parent, Child, and Holy Effect." I just find this rather weird with no historical or Scriptural basis whatsoever--but most of these people do not believe in the authority of Scripture at all or church tradition either, so one really can't debate the issue with them.

[ChiRho]

I totally agree that God is spirit and not masculine or feminine in the way that we are, but my biggest problem lately is that people I'm around (both male and female, including both of my current pastors) continue to refer to God as "she" rather than "he." I've always figured that if Jesus called God "Father," who am I to do otherwise? I don't know if it is "wrong" to call God "mother" but it just makes me uncomfortable--epsecially in light of both Scriptural evidence and church tradition. I'm thinking this whole God-as-mother thing is a modern attempt to sanitize Christianity for a pc-obsessed society. I personally know people who, when singing the doxology, refer not to "the Father, Son, and Holy Ghost," but rather "the Parent, Child, and Holy Effect." I just find this rather weird with no historical or Scriptural basis whatsoever--but most of these people do not believe in the authority of Scripture at all or church tradition either, so one really can't debate the issue with them.

You know more than you know!

I'm thinking this whole God-as-mother thing is a modern attempt to sanitize Christianity for a pc-obsessed society.

True! This is the work of Satan.

I personally know people who, when singing the doxology, refer not to "the Father, Son, and Holy Ghost," but rather "the Parent, Child, and Holy Effect." I just find this rather weird with no historical or Scriptural basis whatsoever--but most of these people do not believe in the authority of Scripture at all or church tradition either, so one really can't debate the issue with them.

Bingo! They worship ficticious gods.

Pax Christi,

ChiRho

[SpiritPsalmist]

Since human's, each of us, male and female are made in God's image it would make sense to me that God encompases both. The word Shekhinah, means "the indwelling feminine Presence". El Shaddai, literally, "God of Breasts".

Many feminine images of God can be found in scripture. . .
Is 66:13 "As one whom his mother comforts, So I will comfort you; And you shal be comforted in Jerusalem."

IS 42:14 "I have held My peace a long time, I have been still and restrained Myself. Now I will cry like a woman in labor, I will pant and gasp at once"

PS 22:10 "I was cast upon You from birth. From My mother's womb You have been My God".

Jer 31:20 "Is Ephraim My dear son? Is he a pleasant child? For though I spoke against him, I earnestly remember him still; Therefore My heart yearns for him; I will surely have mercy on him, says the LORD.

[LuxPerpetua]

I totally agree that God has both masculine and feminine qualities, but what I'm really up in the air about is whether we should address God as "mother" rather than as "father" (as per Jesus' example).

[ps139]

I don't get how someone can read Our Lord's prayer, then decide to call God "mother" instead of "Father." Jesus did things for a reason. We may not understand why, but He is God, after all.
The Lord's Prayer is not some issue in Scripture that is up to interpretation, it is plain and simple. People who call God "mother" and ignore Christ's example ...... it is so obvious how we should address God, they have other motivations behind their unorthodox nomenclature.

[SpiritPsalmist]

I totally agree that God has both masculine and feminine qualities, but what I'm really up in the air about is whether we should address God as "mother" rather than as "father" (as per Jesus' example).
Jesus told us to pray, "our Father", So I guess I would say No, we should not address God as our Mother. Just my opinion though.

[Cary.Melvin]

How can God be the mother when Mary is the Mother of All Christians? She, afterall, is the Mother of God. Right???

[PolymerTim]

I think most Protestant Christians would answer that the church (the new Israel/Jerusalem) is the mother of all Christians through Mary. ;) This is per Galatians 4:26 and Revelation 12:5.

[SpiritPsalmist]

How can God be the mother when Mary is the Mother of All Christians? She, afterall, is the Mother of God. Right???I believe this is a Catholic not a Protestant viewpoint. Mary was the mother of Jesus, the Christ, the only begotten, Son of the Living God. The protestant, at least my area of protestantism, does not believe that Mary is the mother of all Christians.