What are Anglo-Catholics?

[BjBarnett]

What are Anglo-Catholics? I mean what sets them off from a Roman Catholic. I think they are not in communion with rome. is that the only thing? Thanks in advanced :)

[Bulldog]

They are the "hiher: Anglicans.

They are more traditional than the "lower" Anglicans, and they share many/most of the practices with Catholics.

It seems to me like the major difference is Papal Infaliiblilty, plus ome minor ones.

[PaladinValer]

Anglicans/Episcopalians are only slightly different from Catholics:

1. We allow women to become ordained clergy. In some provinces, women are even bishops.
2. We allow our clergy the option to marry or remain celibate.
3. Although we do fully believe in the Real Presence in the Eucharist, the official doctrine of the AC doesn't go far as to affirm the doctrine of transubstantiation. Most of us a consubstantiationists, although there are some transubstantiationists too
4. The big issues are still open and are still debated.
5. We do not recognize the Pope as the vicar of the Christ, although we do recognize him as a bishop.
6. Officially, the AC believes that the OT Deuterocanonical/Apocryphal Books are useful aids, but are not to be used to promote doctrine, although there are many of us (like myself) who consider these books fully canonical like you Catholics

Ten Big similarities (among others):

1. Apostolic Succession
2. Affirm the authority of Holy Tradition
3. Jesus' Body and Blood is there at the Eucharist
4. We used the same lectionary, the Revised Common Lectionary
5. We have three ordinaries just like you: deacons, priests, and bishops
6. The same worship style: first is the Liturgy of the Word and then is the Liturgy of the Eucharist
7. We both firmly believe in the "Communion of Saints" (yup, we got those saints and are sometimes accused of saint-worship [or at least I was recently] just like you)
8. We both have the same holy days and liturgical calender (All Saint's Day, Pentecost, Day of the Transfiguration, etc) and use of colors during seasons (red for Pentecost, white for Easter, etc)
9. We have the same seven sacraments that impart grace
10. We pray for the dead

[BjBarnett]

Anglicans/Episcopalians are only slightly different from Catholics:

1. We allow women to become ordained clergy. In some provinces, women are even bishops.
2. We allow our clergy the option to marry or remain celibate.
3. Although we do fully believe in the Real Presence in the Eucharist, the official doctrine of the AC doesn't go far as to affirm the doctrine of transubstantiation. Most of us a consubstantiationists, although there are some transubstantiationists too
4. The big issues are still open and are still debated.
5. We do not recognize the Pope as the vicar of the Christ, although we do recognize him as a bishop.
6. Officially, the AC believes that the OT Deuterocanonical/Apocryphal Books are useful aids, but are not to be used to promote doctrine, although there are many of us (like myself) who consider these books fully canonical like you Catholics

Ten Big similarities (among others):

1. Apostolic Succession
2. Affirm the authority of Holy Tradition
3. Jesus' Body and Blood is there at the Eucharist
4. We used the same lectionary, the Revised Common Lectionary
5. We have three ordinaries just like you: deacons, priests, and bishops
6. The same worship style: first is the Liturgy of the Word and then is the Liturgy of the Eucharist
7. We both firmly believe in the "Communion of Saints" (yup, we got those saints and are sometimes accused of saint-worship [or at least I was recently] just like you)
8. We both have the same holy days and liturgical calender (All Saint's Day, Pentecost, Day of the Transfiguration, etc) and use of colors during seasons (red for Pentecost, white for Easter, etc)
9. We have the same seven sacraments that impart grace
10. We pray for the dead

wow you believe in the communion of saints? very cool. i didnt think any protestant faiths believed in it. :hug:

[Colabomb]

I will clarify, that that list does not speak for all Anglicans

My denomination is FULLY against the ordination of women to the priesthood.

[TomUK]

Indeed, My anglo-catholic church does not agree with the ordination of women. Neither do many Anglican churches.

[bonniea84]

I'm grateful that our diocese *DOES* support the ordination of women. If that wasn't the case, we'd be missing out on one of the best priests our church has ever had. She's so wonderful and is so filled with the Holy Spirit. Praise be to God for that. :clap: :clap: :clap:

[Karl - Liberal Backslider]

There are distinctly two species of Anglo-Catholic - the Affirming Catholic types, who tend to the liberal on matters of sexuality and the ordination of women, and (in the CofE) the "Resolution A, B and C" types who are conservative on these issues.

Of course, there's lots in between and people who are accepting of one but not the other. But the two types are noticeable!

This is because Anglicanism is best seen as a Triangle:



E


..............L (Ignore the dots; it's just that the board software removes the extra spaces)


C

Where E is Evangelical, L is Liberal and C is Catholic.
Any individual will be somewhere within this triangle. A (n Anglo-) Catholic who veers towards Liberal will be likely friendly towards Aff Cath; one who leans towards Evangelical will likely oppose the ordination of Women and take a traditional line on sexuality.

[BAChristian]

I will clarify, that that list does not speak for all Anglicans

My denomination is FULLY against the ordination of women to the priesthood.
I actually didn't realize that...

So does the Anglican churches and Episcopalian churches share the same authority hiearchy? Is it just that we typically call Anglican churches in the US, Episcopalian?

[PaladinValer]

First off, I apologize for being so broad in my analysis. There are those Anglicans/Episcopalians who disagree with women clergy (although I respectfully disagree), and I wish to apologize if I caused any alienization.

To answer BA's question:

We, like Catholics, uphold the historic hierarchical rankings (and functions) of deacon, priest, and bishop. Deacons can either be transient deacons, who are on their way to becoming priests or one can be a permanent deacon. Deacons cannot celibrate the Mass (unless under special instruction), but can read the Gospel. Currently, our denomination (at least in the 'States) is going through a revival of the original role of deacons for ministering to the people (the sick, etc), which I find to be excellent.

The official Anglican Church in the United States is the ECUSA, the Episcopal Church USA. We are called Episcopalians here instead of Anglicans because our first bishop was ordained through the Scotts and not the English. The Scottish also use the term Episcopalian, and so therefore, so do we here in the United States. There are a few other places in the world that also use the term "Episcopalian" instead of "Anglican" as well.

I should note that each Anglican province is administered to seperately by its own archbishop (or presiding bishop here in the US). The ABC, Rowan Williams, is our first-among-equals. Once every 10 years, all provinces elect members to participate in the Lambeth Conference where all Anglicans participate and set official "broad" beliefs, etc.

[Colabomb]

First off, I apologize for being so broad in my analysis. There are those Anglicans/Episcopalians who disagree with women clergy (although I respectfully disagree), and I wish to apologize if I caused any alienization.

To answer BA's question:

We, like Catholics, uphold the historic hierarchical rankings (and functions) of deacon, priest, and bishop. Deacons can either be transient deacons, who are on their way to becoming priests or one can be a permanent deacon. Deacons cannot celibrate the Mass (unless under special instruction), but can read the Gospel. Currently, our denomination (at least in the 'States) is going through a revival of the original role of deacons for ministering to the people (the sick, etc), which I find to be excellent.

The official Anglican Church in the United States is the ECUSA, the Episcopal Church USA. We are called Episcopalians here instead of Anglicans because our first bishop was ordained through the Scotts and not the English. The Scottish also use the term Episcopalian, and so therefore, so do we here in the United States. There are a few other places in the world that also use the term "Episcopalian" instead of "Anglican" as well.

I should note that each Anglican province is administered to seperately by its own archbishop (or presiding bishop here in the US). The ABC, Rowan Williams, is our first-among-equals. Once every 10 years, all provinces elect members to participate in the Lambeth Conference where all Anglicans participate and set official "broad" beliefs, etc.
And to further Paladin's Post

There are many other Anglican groups, that are not part of the Anglican Communion.

Many of these groups are more Conservative and Traditional than Ecusa. For example, my Denomination (The Reformed Episcopal Church) is against the "Ordination" of Women (As above mentioned), and we are fully against the "ordination" of Gene Robinson as he is living in known unrepentant sin.

As for being more Traditional, while our Denomination has its own prayer book, my church, and many others, use the older more Traditional 1928 Book of Common Prayer.

[PaladinValer]

Colabimb, I would argue that the AC is more traditional than those churches of Anglican origin but not in FC with the Holy See of Canterbury. Thanks to the Vatican II, the Catholics have rediscovered many old traditions (some of which our E/O Orthodox brothers and sisters also) that have been lost. The AC has since begun to adapt them to Anglican life and liturgy. For one major example, the role of our deacons is slowly returning to its original role. It was the major reason for the revision of the 1928 Prayer Book; in order to revolutionize and restore this old traditions long lost.

As for Bishop V. Gene Robinson, I honestly don't wish to be the initiator of the first debate, but unless you know 100% of everything that goes on in his life, IMO, you do not have any authority to make that claim. Regarldess of how he appears on the surface, you cannot with pure reason alone, 100% assuredly say that. In fact, one could arguably say that about all people unless you intimately (and no pun intended) knew them.

[Bartimaeus]

Anglicans/Episcopalians are only slightly different from Catholics:

1. We allow women to become ordained clergy. In some provinces, women are even bishops.
2. We allow our clergy the option to marry or remain celibate.
3. Although we do fully believe in the Real Presence in the Eucharist, the official doctrine of the AC doesn't go far as to affirm the doctrine of transubstantiation. Most of us a consubstantiationists, although there are some transubstantiationists too
4. The big issues are still open and are still debated.
5. We do not recognize the Pope as the vicar of the Christ, although we do recognize him as a bishop.
6. Officially, the AC believes that the OT Deuterocanonical/Apocryphal Books are useful aids, but are not to be used to promote doctrine, although there are many of us (like myself) who consider these books fully canonical like you Catholics

Ten Big similarities (among others):

1. Apostolic Succession
2. Affirm the authority of Holy Tradition
3. Jesus' Body and Blood is there at the Eucharist
4. We used the same lectionary, the Revised Common Lectionary
5. We have three ordinaries just like you: deacons, priests, and bishops
6. The same worship style: first is the Liturgy of the Word and then is the Liturgy of the Eucharist
7. We both firmly believe in the "Communion of Saints" (yup, we got those saints and are sometimes accused of saint-worship [or at least I was recently] just like you)
8. We both have the same holy days and liturgical calender (All Saint's Day, Pentecost, Day of the Transfiguration, etc) and use of colors during seasons (red for Pentecost, white for Easter, etc)
9. We have the same seven sacraments that impart grace
10. We pray for the dead
Quick question from the AC newbie. Can you define consubstanstiation? :)

[TomUK]

“Consubstantiation” is a term commonly applied to the Lutheran concept of the communion supper, though some modern Lutheran theologians reject the use of this term because of its ambiguity. The expression, however, is generally associated with Luther. The idea is that in the communion, the body and blood of Christ, and the bread and wine, coexist in union with each other. “Luther illustrated it by the analogy of the iron put into the fire whereby both fire and iron are united in the red-hot iron and yet each continues unchanged” (The Oxford Dictionary of the Christian Church, F.L. Cross, Ed., London: Oxford, 1958, p. 337).

Hope that helps

[Colabomb]

Colabimb, I would argue that the AC is more traditional than those churches of Anglican origin but not in FC with the Holy See of Canterbury. Thanks to the Vatican II, the Catholics have rediscovered many old traditions (some of which our E/O Orthodox brothers and sisters also) that have been lost. The AC has since begun to adapt them to Anglican life and liturgy. For one major example, the role of our deacons is slowly returning to its original role. It was the major reason for the revision of the 1928 Prayer Book; in order to revolutionize and restore this old traditions long lost.

As for Bishop V. Gene Robinson, I honestly don't wish to be the initiator of the first debate, but unless you know 100% of everything that goes on in his life, IMO, you do not have any authority to make that claim. Regarldess of how he appears on the surface, you cannot with pure reason alone, 100% assuredly say that. In fact, one could arguably say that about all people unless you intimately (and no pun intended) knew them.
By his own admission, Gene Robinson left his wife and Children, and he is in a homosexual relationship. This is sinful according to orthodox Christianity, to which I fully subscribe.

So yes, by his own admission, I can say that he is living in known unrepentant sin.

[TomUK]

By his own admission, Gene Robinson left his wife and Children, and he is in a homosexual relationship. This is sinful according to orthodox Christianity, to which I fully subscribe.

So yes, by his own admission, I can say that he is living in known unrepentant sin.

I echo Colabomb. Note that i'm not condemning homosexuality - the argument though is that bishops cannot be effective when living in a state of sin, and living perputally in such a state. To echo that point again though- homosexulaity is not condemed. It's just not considered a correct state for a bishop to be in.

[Eternal_Believer]

wait a sec... What do you mean communion with the saints?????

And how would you know its the saints and not a deceiver demon?

if i sound harsh then too bad i do not have the will to paraphrase this.

[Karl - Liberal Backslider]

You don't have the communion of saints (note of, not with) in your version of the creed?

[Polycarp1]

First off, I apologize for being so broad in my analysis. There are those Anglicans/Episcopalians who disagree with women clergy (although I respectfully disagree), and I wish to apologize if I caused any alienization.

To answer BA's question:

We, like Catholics, uphold the historic hierarchical rankings (and functions) of deacon, priest, and bishop. Deacons can either be transient deacons, who are on their way to becoming priests or one can be a permanent deacon. Deacons cannot celibrate the Mass (unless under special instruction), but can read the Gospel. Currently, our denomination (at least in the 'States) is going through a revival of the original role of deacons for ministering to the people (the sick, etc), which I find to be excellent.

The official Anglican Church in the United States is the ECUSA, the Episcopal Church USA. We are called Episcopalians here instead of Anglicans because our first bishop was ordained through the Scotts and not the English. The Scottish also use the term Episcopalian, and so therefore, so do we here in the United States. There are a few other places in the world that also use the term "Episcopalian" instead of "Anglican" as well.

I should note that each Anglican province is administered to seperately by its own archbishop (or presiding bishop here in the US). The ABC, Rowan Williams, is our first-among-equals. Once every 10 years, all provinces elect members to participate in the Lambeth Conference where all Anglicans participate and set official "broad" beliefs, etc.
A series of points fine-tuning Paladin Valer's terrific post quoted above.

1. Just as in Catholicism, deacons cannot celebrate the Eucharist themselves, but may, in the absence of a priest, conduct the Liturgy of the Word and then communicate the faithful from the Reserved Sacrament ("a Deacon's Mass" -- misnomer but one with a long history behind it). I think that this, while rare in both churches, is slightly more common among Anglicans than Catholics.

2. The structure of the Anglican Communion is much more like the Orthodox Churches than it is Catholicism -- autonomous, autocephalic national churches in communion with each other and with the ABC as the "symbol of union" and first among equals for us. Contrary to the implications of PV's post, Lambeth Conferences, held every ten years in years ending with "8," are consultative, and while their resolutions and writings are taken very seriously by the member churches, they are not binding as decisions to which the member churches must conform. Best parallel in Catholicism would be the ecumenical dialogues where Catholic bishops and theologians communicate with "separated brethren" -- until and unless the Pope or the Curia (or in certain circumstances a national council of Bishops) ratifies their decisions, resolutions, and writings, they are not binding upon the faithful.

3. I strongly suggest that Gene Robinson and his episcopate be off limits for this thread and that a new thread discussing him and the ECUSA decisions regarding him be started -- and moderated carefully, with great respect towards each other as holding different views on the issues involved.

4. Some conservative Anglicans in America have schismed over the revision of the Prayer Book and women's ordination (in 1979) and l'affaire Robinson in (2003) and have formed the "Anglican Mission in America" (AMiA) which is not in communion with most of the rest of the Anglican Communion. (A very close parallel would be the SSPX in Catholicism.) The American Anglican Congress (AAC) is a group of conservative Episcopalians who remain within the church but work for restoration of what they see as the right course as against what they view as liberal excesses of the last 25 years. Some "low church" Episcopalians seceded over what they saw as too-Catholic practice back in the late 1800s, forming the Reformed Episcopal Church to which Colabomb belongs -- ironically, they are more Anglo-Catholic than the Episcopal Church as a whole today! :)

5. The term "Anglo-Catholic" describes those who, having freedom as do all Anglicans to focus on particular aspects of the faith, tend to a very Catholic piety, saying the Rosary, having a strong Eucharistic focus (as do most Anglicans these days), engaging in adoration of the Sacrament, invoking saints, preferring a "smells and bells" sort of service (thurible and Presence Bell)....

[TomUK]

Polycarp, what did you believe caused this anglo-catholic revival in the anglican church? From what i've observed, there is a general movement in the direction of a catholic type worship, and was wondering if this is true of all anglican churches. Thanks.

[Polycarp1]

Polycarp, what did you believe caused this anglo-catholic revival in the anglican church? From what i've observed, there is a general movement in the direction of a catholic type worship, and was wondering if this is true of all anglican churches. Thanks.
In two words, the Oxford Movement (http://www.bartleby.com/65/ox/Oxfordmo.html).

I think that across the board most Anglicans outside the Church of England have moved slowly and gradually over the last century-and-a-half towards a more Catholic practice. (CoE, where it's the national church, is as always a rule unto itself.)

[PaladinValer]

Polycarp1, thank you for tweaking my post and for your comments. I'm still fairly new to the AC; I was only confirmed on Sunday the 9th, so I will try hard not to unfaithfully witness our Church. I offer my most sincere apologies for my mistakes.

The Lambeth does meet every 10 years when the last digit is eight (so 1998, 2008, 2018, 2028, etc) and their decisions are not binding; I should have stated this better.

As for the Gene Robinson issue, I couldn't agree more, which is why I didn't post a reply about the issue after my first one. Its too sensative an issue to deal with unordered debate or "causual" conversation.

[Karl - Liberal Backslider]

Polycarp, what did you believe caused this anglo-catholic revival in the anglican church? From what i've observed, there is a general movement in the direction of a catholic type worship, and was wondering if this is true of all anglican churches. Thanks.

I think there's more to it than the Oxford Movement.

There is also a move in Western society away from modernism - which sees truth in terms of propositions, and towards post-modernism - which allows for a wider understanding of truth. Low church Anglicanism tends to push truths propositionally - lots of preaching. High church Anglicanism communicates truth by means of imagery, experience and the senses, in ways that are not easily reduced to simple propositions. Consequently, as society has moved towards post-modernism, Anglo-Catholic ritual more resonates with the cultural zeitgeist (is that the right word?)

Interestingly, at the same time, Low church worship has tended towards charismatic, which again is experiential and sensual. This is, I suspect, part of the same phenomenon. What is being most squeezed out is non-charismatic propositional evangelicalism, which I think many people today find cold and fails to strike chords. It is noticeable that in the UK Reform - the conservative evangelical grouping - is much smaller than the Anglican presence in the Evangelical Alliance, which is far more inclined in practice to Charismatic evangelicalism.

[Hoonbaba]

In my experience with Anglo-Catholics, they're virtually no different from Catholics, except with jurisdiction and maybe a few doctrines, but in terms of practice, liturgy, etc it's encouraging to simply have fellowship with them: There's so much in common, just as Catholics and Orthodox have a lot in common. Of course there's differences, but there's a lot more similarities than differences :)

One Anglo-Catholic friend has a deeper devotion to Mary than I do :)

And in my opinion, I believe Anglo-Catholics have legitimate Sacraments. On the more episcopalian/liberal side with ordained women, gay bishops, etc, and other non-traditional teachings, I don't think they're legitimate.

-Jason