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Victrixa

5th May 2004, 03:49 PM

Hi dear Lutheran friends. I have many questions for you! :)

If I’m asking all these questions on the Lutheran faith,
it’s because I really want to know what Lutheranism teaches.
I am seriously seeking Lutheran answers
for clarification. Thank you very much in advance!

For those who don't know, I have Lutheran friends (a couple)
who send me tons of Lutheran literature. (They would like me and my dh
to become Lutherans, of course! ;) ) I read much of it,
though I still have questions. I am interested by what the
Lutheran Church teaches.

I realize that this is a very long thread and that there are many
many questions. However, anyone, feel free to answer this or
that question, at random. Thank you so very much in advance! :hug:

On the Papacy vs. The Office of the Keys

Matthew 16

13 Now when Jesus came into the district of Caesarea Philippi, He was asking His disciples, "Who do people say that the Son of Man is?"
14 And they said, "Some say John the Baptist; and others, Elijah; but still others, Jeremiah, or one of the prophets."
15 He said to them, "But who do you say that I am?"
16 Simon Peter answered, "You are the Christ, the Son of the living God."
17 And Jesus said to him, "Blessed are you, Simon Barjona, because flesh and blood did not reveal this to you, but My Father who is in heaven.
18 "I also say to you that you are Peter, and upon this rock I will build My church; and the gates of Hades will not overpower it.
19 "I will give you the keys of the kingdom of heaven; and whatever you bind on earth shall have been bound in heaven, and whatever you loose on earth shall have been loosed in heaven."
20 Then He warned the disciples that they should tell no one that He was the Christ.

The Catholic Church teaches that this Bible passage supports the doctrine of Papacy.
The Lutheran Church teaches that this Bible passage supports the doctrine of the Office of the Keys. I understand that verse 18 ("I also say to you that you are Peter, and upon this rock I will build My church; and the gates of Hades will not overpower it”) can refer to Jesus telling Peter that He will build His Church on Peter’s profession of faith (verse 16 - Simon Peter answered, "You are the Christ, the Son of the living God."). However, I do not understand how verse 19 ("I will give you the keys of the kingdom of heaven; and whatever you bind on earth shall have been bound in heaven, and whatever you loose on earth shall have been loosed in heaven.") can apply to all Christians. It seems that Jesus is speaking specifically to Peter himself. Could someone please explain to me how verse 19 can apply to all Christians and not to only Peter? Also, what does verse 19 really mean, according to Lutheran teaching? (You know, according to the Catholic Church, this verse refers to the Sacrament of Confession which would have been handed down from Peter to his successors)

Apostolic Succession

I know that the Lutheran Church doesn’t believe in apostolic succession. Apparently local churches, during the first era of Christianity, were the ones who chose and voted for their pastors? There was no such thing as a bishop in the sense that we know it today as the word ‘bishop’ (‘overseer’) is equal to the word ‘elder’ (‘presbyter’). In other words, the elder of the church was its overseer – or pastor! Is that it? If someone can clarify this!
Are there bishops (as we know them today) in the Lutheran Church?

Tradition vs Scripture

As Lutherans, you believe in Tradition, as long as it doesn’t oppose Scripture. Is that right?

The Virgin Mary

As Lutherans, do you believe in Mary’s perpetual virginity or do you believe that Mary had other children after Jesus? Is it true that there is a Lutheran rosary? If yes, what does the latter look like, what prayers are said, etc.? Was Martin Luther always devoted to Mary or did he end his Marian devotions at one point in his ministry?

Days of Obligation or not?

Are there any days of obligation in the Lutheran Church? Are Sundays obligatory for Lutherans? If yes, why? If no, why?

Contraception

Is the Lutheran Church opposed to contraception or for it? If yes, why? If no, why?

Purgatory

I know the Lutheran Church does not believe in Purgatory. Can anyone explain to me the following Scripture passages?

Matthew 12
32Anyone who speaks a word against the Son of Man will be forgiven, but anyone who speaks against the Holy Spirit will not be forgiven, either in this age or in the age to come.

(The Catholic Church teaches that, according to this Scripture passage, sins can be forgiven in the ‘age to come’, i.e., after death. But the sin against the Holy Spirit cannot be forgiven in this world or the next)

1 Corinthians 3:15 “If any man's work shall be burned, he shall suffer loss: but he himself shall be saved; yet so as by fire.“
(Catholic teaching refers to the fire here as purgatorial fire)

18 For Christ also died for sins once for all, the just for the unjust, so that He might bring us to God, having been put to death in the flesh, but made alive in the spirit; 19 in which also He went and made proclamation to the spirits now in prison,
20 who once were disobedient, when the patience of God kept waiting in the days of Noah, during the construction of the ark, in which a few, that is, eight persons, were brought safely through the water.
(who were the ‘spirits in prison’. What is the ‘prison’?)

Praying for the dead

2 Timothy 1: 15-18
15 You are aware of the fact that all who are in Asia turned away from me, among whom are Phygelus and Hermogenes. 16 The Lord grant mercy to the house of Onesiphorus, for he often refreshed me and was not ashamed of my chains;
17 but when he was in Rome, he eagerly searched for me and found me--
18 the Lord grant to him to find mercy from the Lord on that day--and you know very well what services he rendered at Ephesus.
(Paul prayed for Onesiphorus’ soul? Onesiphorus was dead at the time)

Unction of the Sick

Does the Lutheran Church have a ministry of unction for the sick?

Loss of salvation or not?

Does the Lutheran Church teach on predestination? Can one lose his or her salvation?

I'll stop here for the moment. I think that's enough questions, right?

Thank you again so very much in advance.

God bless you.

Pax Christi,

Caroline

JVAC

5th May 2004, 05:00 PM

Also, what does verse 19 really mean, according to Lutheran teaching?
The Lutheran understanding of the Office of the Keys is thus: The Office of the Keys is the authority to pronounce the Gospel, that is the forgiveness of sins through Christ Jesus. This authority is only the pronouncement of the Gospel. We believe that after that, what the person chooses to do with it depends on thier own heart. If they reject the Gospel then they are bound, and if they accept it they are loosed.

Are there bishops (as we know them today) in the Lutheran Church?
Yes there are Bishops in the ELCA, and the Bishops are vested with the authority to: "forgive sins, judge doctrine, reject doctrines contrary to the Holy Gospel, and to exclude from communion of the Church wicked men, whose wickedness is known." (AC XXVIII) THe ELCA has bishops who act as supreme executive in thier synods, and also, who are ordained with Apostolic Succession in mind.

As Lutherans, you believe in Tradition, as long as it doesn’t oppose Scripture. Is that right?
Yes

As Lutherans, do you believe in Mary’s perpetual virginity or do you believe that Mary had other children after Jesus? Is it true that there is a Lutheran rosary? If yes, what does the latter look like, what prayers are said, etc.? Was Martin Luther always devoted to Mary or did he end his Marian devotions at one point in his ministry?
According to an obscure point in the Book of Concord, the official Lutheran teaching is Mary is perpetually virgin. Also there is a Lutheran version of the Rosary, however, it is a Lenten devotional thing, and not near the Catholic rosary in anything but appearance. Lutherans are neither encouraged nore disuaded from invoking Mary or the Saints. Lutherans also highly regard both Mary and the Saints as honorable and faithful members of the body of Christ.

Are there any days of obligation in the Lutheran Church? Are Sundays obligatory for Lutherans? If yes, why? If no, why?
No, because it is found no where in scripture to do so, except the Law of Moses, which we were liberated from.

Is the Lutheran Church opposed to contraception or for it? If yes, why? If no, why?
Yes, some more than others. The ELCA doesn't make a large policy of it though.

Purgatory
Don't have time for that can of worms, will come back later to answer, (got work in fifteen minutes)

Praying for the dead
Tableing this also

Does the Lutheran Church have a ministry of unction for the sick?
Yes, we practice unction for the sick, but it is merely a Rite in our church and not a sacrament.

Does the Lutheran Church teach on predestination? Can one lose his or her salvation?
It is possible for man to fall from grace. There is more to this though, and I, or someone else will touch on it later.

Got to go soon, hope this takes care of some questions for now.

-James

Willy

5th May 2004, 07:15 PM

Wow, I'm not sure where you got your info about Lutheran teaching. No, to perpetual virginity of Mary. Such a doctrine not only contradicts the Bible's witness; it also portrays a negative view of sexuality, which would never be our view. We in no way would oppose birth control. Sexual expression is for more than reproductions. No to purgatory and praying to or for the dead. WE stand upon the graciousness of God. Both of these things seem not to focus on God's goodness, but on our ability to bargain with God's goodness. We ELCA Lutherans are very open to the insights of modernity. Many of the questions you ask seem to take us back to the 15th-16th centuries. We probably would want to reframe many of the questions so that they make sense for a modern world.

JVAC

5th May 2004, 09:17 PM

Wow, I'm not sure where you got your info about Lutheran teaching.
The Book of Concord

No, to perpetual virginity of Mary. Such a doctrine not only contradicts the Bible's witness; it also portrays a negative view of sexuality, which would never be our view.
Section 1 point four of the Smalcald Articles in Latin "...was born of the pure, holy always Virgin Mary". Luther, himself, always attested to Mary's perpetual virginity, and even claimed those bible verses you are thinking about, as saying his cousins and not brothers.

Negative view on sexuality????

We in no way would oppose birth control. Sexual expression is for more than reproductions.
The LCMS and WELS have more stringent possitions than the ELCA. The ELCA says: "Because we believe that God is the creator of life, the number of induced abortions is a source of deep concern to this church. We mourn the loss of life that God has created. The strong Christian presumption is to preserve and protect life. Abortion ought to be an option only of last resort. Therefore, as a church we seek to reduce the need to turn to abortion as the answer to unintended pregnancies." http://www.elca.org/socialstatements/abortion/

WE stand upon the graciousness of God. Both of these things seem not to focus on God's goodness, but on our ability to bargain with God's goodness. We ELCA Lutherans are very open to the insights of modernity. Many of the questions you ask seem to take us back to the 15th-16th centuries. We probably would want to reframe many of the questions so that they make sense for a modern world.
The Church only says that "the one Christ as the Mediator, Propitiation, High Priest and Intercessor." The church doesn't say that the Saints and Mary cannot or do not pray for us, the Church mainly says that since we have Christ we do not need them, and we don't. Since the Church cannot say that the Saints or Mary don't hear our requests for prayer, as those we pray to today to pray for us, they do not condemn the practice, nor do they promote it.

-James

BronxBriar

5th May 2004, 09:37 PM

Wow, I'm not sure where you got your info about Lutheran teaching. No, to perpetual virginity of Mary. Such a doctrine not only contradicts the Bible's witness; it also portrays a negative view of sexuality, which would never be our view........We ELCA Lutherans are very open to the insights of modernity. Many of the questions you ask seem to take us back to the 15th-16th centuries. We probably would want to reframe many of the questions so that they make sense for a modern world.
Based on the above I cannot tell if you are a biblical fundamentalist or a modernist. It is fine if you want to reframe the questions to make sense for a modern modern world as you put it, but we cannot, we should not, manipulate the conclusions of theolgical inquiry because they do not suit 'modern' opinions or tastes. For my part, I will stand with those who were closer to the early church and who held to the perpetual virginity of Mary: St. Gregory Naziazen, St. Augustine, St. Peter Chrysologus, St. Leo the Great, St. John of Damascus, and St. Jerome. The questions originally posed take us back not just to the 15th and 16th centuries but to the origins of the church itself, and that my friend is not a bad thing.

With all due respect,
Henry

Victrixa

5th May 2004, 09:46 PM

Thank you so very much everyone for your responses! :clap:

I'm waiting for more if anyone else wants to share!

Love in Christ,

Caroline

JVAC

5th May 2004, 09:51 PM

Purgatory:

The Church does not teach there to be a purgatory.

Matthew 12
32Anyone who speaks a word against the Son of Man will be forgiven, but anyone who speaks against the Holy Spirit will not be forgiven, either in this age or in the age to come.St. Matthew continually talks about the coming kingdom, and that is what I think he is talking about right here. I don't see any evidence that he is talking about a time after death. I think he is talking about that time and the time when the kingdom will come.

1 Corinthians 3:15 “If any man's work shall be burned, he shall suffer loss: but he himself shall be saved; yet so as by fire.“
If we flip back to St. Matthew on this one (3:11) we remember that Jesus baptized with the Holy Spirit and with Fire, this can be interpreted to be that fire.

18 For Christ also died for sins once for all, the just for the unjust, so that He might bring us to God, having been put to death in the flesh, but made alive in the spirit; 19 in which also He went and made proclamation to the spirits now in prison,
20 who once were disobedient, when the patience of God kept waiting in the days of Noah, during the construction of the ark, in which a few, that is, eight persons, were brought safely through the water
I can't find this, please post the book and chapter and I'll get back to you.

Prayer for the Dead:

Without purgatory prayer for the dead is pretty vain, we should instead pray for the comforting of those still in this miserable world of sin. Either the dead had faith or they didn't, and our prayers can't change that.

2 Timothy 1: 15-18
15 You are aware of the fact that all who are in Asia turned away from me, among whom are Phygelus and Hermogenes. 16 The Lord grant mercy to the house of Onesiphorus, for he often refreshed me and was not ashamed of my chains;
17 but when he was in Rome, he eagerly searched for me and found me--
18 the Lord grant to him to find mercy from the Lord on that day--and you know very well what services he rendered at Ephesus.
Here St. Paul is commending Onesiphorus to God, and I don't see any evidence that St. Paul thinks this prayer will change the judgement. We can commend all we want but Christ is the perfect judge and his rulings are final.

-James

Victrixa

5th May 2004, 10:55 PM

Hi James,

Thank you sooo much for your responses!

18 For Christ also died for sins once for all, the just for the unjust, so that He might bring us to God, having been put to death in the flesh, but made alive in the spirit; 19 in which also He went and made proclamation to the spirits now in prison,
20 who once were disobedient, when the patience of God kept waiting in the days of Noah, during the construction of the ark, in which a few, that is, eight persons, were brought safely through the water.
(who were the ‘spirits in prison’. What is the ‘prison’?)

That is 1 Peter 3: 18 - 20

Come to think about it, I believe this passage might be speaking of Christ's visit to the souls in Scheol before the Resurrection? He would have visited them, say, on Holy Saturday, while He was 'dead' - in the 'in between' period before His Ressurection? His visit was to preach His Gospel message of salvation... maybe?

Thanks!

Caroline

JVAC

5th May 2004, 11:27 PM

That is 1 Peter 3: 18 - 20

Come to think about it, I believe this passage might be speaking of Christ's visit to the souls in Scheol before the Resurrection? He would have visited them, say, on Holy Saturday, while He was 'dead' - in the 'in between' period before His Ressurection? His visit was to preach His Gospel message of salvation... maybe?
Actually I just read something about that a few days ago (Other than the Apostle's Creed, "He decended into Hell"):

For it is enough that we know that Christ descended into hell and destroyed hell for all believers and that he redeemed them from the power of death, the devil and the eternal damnation of hellish retribution. How that happened we should save for the next world, where not only this matter but many others which here we have simply believed and cannot comprehend with our blind reason, will be revealed.
Therefore, we confess "Ibelieve in Jesus Christ, our Lord, God's Son, who died, was buried, and descended into hell." In this Creed the burial and Christ's decent into hell are distinguished as two different articles, and we believe simply that the entire person, God and human being descended to hell after his burial, conquered the devil, destroyed the power of hell, and took from the devil all his power.
-James

A. believer

6th May 2004, 12:00 AM

Hi dear Lutheran friends. I have many questions for you! :)

If I’m asking all these questions on the Lutheran faith,
it’s because I really want to know what Lutheranism teaches.
I am seriously seeking Lutheran answers
for clarification. Thank you very much in advance!

For those who don't know, I have Lutheran friends (a couple)
who send me tons of Lutheran literature. (They would like me and my dh
to become Lutherans, of course! ;) ) I read much of it,
though I still have questions. I am interested by what the
Lutheran Church teaches.

I realize that this is a very long thread and that there are many
many questions. However, anyone, feel free to answer this or
that question, at random. Thank you so very much in advance! :hug:

On the Papacy vs. The Office of the Keys

Matthew 16

13 Now when Jesus came into the district of Caesarea Philippi, He was asking His disciples, "Who do people say that the Son of Man is?"
14 And they said, "Some say John the Baptist; and others, Elijah; but still others, Jeremiah, or one of the prophets."
15 He said to them, "But who do you say that I am?"
16 Simon Peter answered, "You are the Christ, the Son of the living God."
17 And Jesus said to him, "Blessed are you, Simon Barjona, because flesh and blood did not reveal this to you, but My Father who is in heaven.
18 "I also say to you that you are Peter, and upon this rock I will build My church; and the gates of Hades will not overpower it.
19 "I will give you the keys of the kingdom of heaven; and whatever you bind on earth shall have been bound in heaven, and whatever you loose on earth shall have been loosed in heaven."
20 Then He warned the disciples that they should tell no one that He was the Christ.

The Catholic Church teaches that this Bible passage supports the doctrine of Papacy.
The Lutheran Church teaches that this Bible passage supports the doctrine of the Office of the Keys. I understand that verse 18 ("I also say to you that you are Peter, and upon this rock I will build My church; and the gates of Hades will not overpower it”) can refer to Jesus telling Peter that He will build His Church on Peter’s profession of faith (verse 16 - Simon Peter answered, "You are the Christ, the Son of the living God."). However, I do not understand how verse 19 ("I will give you the keys of the kingdom of heaven; and whatever you bind on earth shall have been bound in heaven, and whatever you loose on earth shall have been loosed in heaven.") can apply to all Christians. It seems that Jesus is speaking specifically to Peter himself. Could someone please explain to me how verse 19 can apply to all Christians and not to only Peter? Also, what does verse 19 really mean, according to Lutheran teaching? (You know, according to the Catholic Church, this verse refers to the Sacrament of Confession which would have been handed down from Peter to his successors)Hi Victrixa,

Since you're asking specifically about Lutheran teaching, I won't attempt to answer here, but if you're interested, in general, about other ways in which these verses have been interpreted, specifically by the church fathers, feel free to ask in the non-denominational (which I assume is an inter-denominational) forum.

Apostolic Succession

I know that the Lutheran Church doesn’t believe in apostolic succession. Apparently local churches, during the first era of Christianity, were the ones who chose and voted for their pastors? There was no such thing as a bishop in the sense that we know it today as the word ‘bishop’ (‘overseer’) is equal to the word ‘elder’ (‘presbyter’). In other words, the elder of the church was its overseer – or pastor! Is that it? If someone can clarify this!
Are there bishops (as we know them today) in the Lutheran Church?Same here.

The Virgin Mary

As Lutherans, do you believe in Mary’s perpetual virginity or do you believe that Mary had other children after Jesus? Is it true that there is a Lutheran rosary? If yes, what does the latter look like, what prayers are said, etc.? Was Martin Luther always devoted to Mary or did he end his Marian devotions at one point in his ministry?James Swan (a Lutheran seminarian) has done some good research on the development of Luther's view of Mary (or more precisely, his lessening emphasis on her, as his understanding of what he regarded as the Biblical view of sola gratia grew) that you can access here. (http://www.graceunknown.com/Reformata/Luther/Luther'sMarianTheology.html)

Purgatory

I know the Lutheran Church does not believe in Purgatory. Can anyone explain to me the following Scripture passages?

Matthew 12
32Anyone who speaks a word against the Son of Man will be forgiven, but anyone who speaks against the Holy Spirit will not be forgiven, either in this age or in the age to come.

(The Catholic Church teaches that, according to this Scripture passage, sins can be forgiven in the ‘age to come’, i.e., after death. But the sin against the Holy Spirit cannot be forgiven in this world or the next)

1 Corinthians 3:15 “If any man's work shall be burned, he shall suffer loss: but he himself shall be saved; yet so as by fire.“
(Catholic teaching refers to the fire here as purgatorial fire)

18 For Christ also died for sins once for all, the just for the unjust, so that He might bring us to God, having been put to death in the flesh, but made alive in the spirit; 19 in which also He went and made proclamation to the spirits now in prison,
20 who once were disobedient, when the patience of God kept waiting in the days of Noah, during the construction of the ark, in which a few, that is, eight persons, were brought safely through the water.
(who were the ‘spirits in prison’. What is the ‘prison’?)Same here.

Praying for the dead

2 Timothy 1: 15-18
15 You are aware of the fact that all who are in Asia turned away from me, among whom are Phygelus and Hermogenes. 16 The Lord grant mercy to the house of Onesiphorus, for he often refreshed me and was not ashamed of my chains;
17 but when he was in Rome, he eagerly searched for me and found me--
18 the Lord grant to him to find mercy from the Lord on that day--and you know very well what services he rendered at Ephesus.
(Paul prayed for Onesiphorus’ soul? Onesiphorus was dead at the time)I'd very much like to address the Roman Catholic assertion about this as well.

God bless!

Rechtgläubig

6th May 2004, 12:53 AM

I know the Lutheran Church does not believe in Purgatory. Can anyone explain to me the following Scripture passages?
Hi A Believer! I will do what I can. :wave:
Matthew 12
32Anyone who speaks a word against the Son of Man will be forgiven, but anyone who speaks against the Holy Spirit will not be forgiven, either in this age or in the age to come.

(The Catholic Church teaches that, according to this Scripture passage, sins can be forgiven in the ‘age to come’, i.e., after death. But the sin against the Holy Spirit cannot be forgiven in this world or the next)

Since Faith is a Gift from God and the Holy Spirit works Faith in ones heart, "sin against the Holy Spirit" is rejection of this work. "Speaks against the Holy Spirit" is more correctly translated as "blasphemes" (blasphemeo STRONGS: 987).
1 Corinthians 3:15 “If any man's work shall be burned, he shall suffer loss: but he himself shall be saved; yet so as by fire.“
(Catholic teaching refers to the fire here as purgatorial fire)

"10By the grace God has given me, I laid a foundation as an expert builder, and someone else is building on it. But each one should be careful how he builds. 11For no one can lay any foundation other than the one already laid, which is Jesus Christ. 12If any man builds on this foundation using gold, silver, costly stones, wood, hay or straw, 13his work will be shown for what it is, because the Day will bring it to light. It will be revealed with fire, and the fire will test the quality of each man's work. 14If what he has built survives, he will receive his reward. 15If it is burned up, he will suffer loss; he himself will be saved, but only as one escaping through the flames. "
Life's trials and tribulations (fire) will test and expose every man's "building" that is built on the foundation (Christ).
18 For Christ also died for sins once for all, the just for the unjust, so that He might bring us to God, having been put to death in the flesh, but made alive in the spirit; 19 in which also He went and made proclamation to the spirits now in prison,
20 who once were disobedient, when the patience of God kept waiting in the days of Noah, during the construction of the ark, in which a few, that is, eight persons, were brought safely through the water.
(who were the ‘spirits in prison’. What is the ‘prison’?)
"And in Jesus Christ, His only Son, our Lord; who was conceived by the Holy Ghost, born of the Virgin Mary; suffered under Pontius Pilate, was crucified, dead, and buried; He descended into hell; the third day He rose again from the dead; He ascended into heaven, and sitteth on the right hand of God the Father Almighty; from thence He shall come to judge the quick and the dead." (Apostles Creed)

The prison is hell. 2 Peter 2:5 gives more information on these inhabitants of this "prison", "4For if God did not spare angels when they sinned, but sent them to hell, putting them into gloomy dungeons to be held for judgment; 5if he did not spare the ancient world when he brought the flood on its ungodly people, but protected Noah, a preacher of righteousness, and seven others". The spirits in prison were unbelievers.

A. believer

6th May 2004, 03:10 AM

Hi A Believer! I will do what I can. :wave:

Hi back to you :wave: , but I think you meant for this post to be directed to Victrixa, (the person who started the thread), didn't you? :)

Rechtgläubig

6th May 2004, 03:29 AM

Hmmm now what did I do wrong? It seems I read the last post, yours, but overlooked the fact that you were quoting. Sorry! :blush:

:D

Rechtgläubig

6th May 2004, 03:42 AM

Was Martin Luther always devoted to Mary or did he end his Marian devotions at one point in his ministry?

Luther's Marian devotion...

In Luther's early years, Mary was one of his favorite saints. In a sermon delivered on August 15, 1516, he said of her, “O blessed mother! O most worthy virgin! Remember us and grant that the Lord do such great things for us too” (Weimar Ausgabe [WA] 1, 79). In a letter dated June 15, 1520, Luther commented on how he usually began his sermons, “I omit wordy introductions and briefly say, ‘To the end that the Word of God may bear fruit within us and be pleasing to God, let us first call upon his divine grace. Say a devout Ave Maria or Pater Noster’” (quoted in What Luther Says, 3, 1257).

Later, in his commentary on John 19: 25-27, Luther provides us with a different picture and one which he held for the rest of his life. “Mary has been turned into an idol in the papacy; and in the very Lenten season, in which men preach Christ and his suffering, they preach the Mother Mary, saying that Christ committed and gave her to us as a mother. We want to hold the dear virgin and holy mother in all honor, as she certainly deserves to be honored; yet we do not want to honor her in such a way that we make her equal to her Son, Christ. For she was not crucified for us, nor did she die for us or pray for us on the cross . . . . Therefore honor Mother Mary as you desire; but do not accord her the honor which we should accord Christ. . . . Mary is justly honored. But to rely on her, to take Christ’s honor and office and give them to his mother, is to deny Christ’ suffering (WA 28, 402f).

Contrary to what the web page you quoted suggests, Luther denied the “immaculate conception” of Mary (that she was born without sin). Luther stated, “Mary was born of parents in sin as other human beings” (WA 49, 173).

Luther did personally believe that Mary gave birth to Christ “clauso utero,” with a closed womb, i.e., he believed the Savior was not born via the birth canal. He said, for example, “Christ did not impair the virginity of his mother’s body.” Likewise Luther himself believed that Mary retained her virginity perpetually, suggesting “He [Joseph] never had intercourse with Mary [after the birth of Jesus]”. Both the perpetual virginity of Mary and clauso utero are what we call “pious opinion.” Scripture does not comment directly on these topics. Christians are free to believe different things as long as these beliefs do not go contrary to clear references in Scripture and as long as Christians do not demand that everyone believe these points exactly as they do. These were Luther’s personally held opinions on these two subjects, but he never demanded that they become the teachings of the church.

Furthermore, Luther did not believe in the assumption of Mary, that she was taken bodily to heaven without facing physical death. “The festival of the assumption of Mary is papal throughout, that is, full of idolatry; and it has been established without any Scripture basis” (St. Louis edition, 13a, 1208). www.wels.org (http://www.wels.org/)

Rechtgläubig

6th May 2004, 03:51 AM

Willy

6th May 2004, 09:39 AM

Based on the above I cannot tell if you are a biblical fundamentalist or a modernist. It is fine if you want to reframe the questions to make sense for a modern modern world as you put it, but we cannot, we should not, manipulate the conclusions of theolgical inquiry because they do not suit 'modern' opinions or tastes. For my part, I will stand with those who were closer to the early church and who held to the perpetual virginity of Mary: St. Gregory Naziazen, St. Augustine, St. Peter Chrysologus, St. Leo the Great, St. John of Damascus, and St. Jerome. The questions originally posed take us back not just to the 15th and 16th centuries but to the origins of the church itself, and that my friend is not a bad thing.

With all due respect,
Henry
What's with this perpetual virginity of Mary stuff? My gosh, what's the point of it all? And since when have Lutherans been talking about this? Even my modern Catholic friends don't talk about this. It is a symbol that makes no sense to them at all. I feel like I have walked back into the 16th century. That, of course, is not to suggest that the modern world is somehow superior to the 16th century. But we talk about things differently today. If we want people in the 21st century to connect to the faith we must be able to speak the faith in a way that makes sense to them. That doesn't mean we do away with the symbols of the past or the insights of the mothers and fathers of the past.

ChiRho

6th May 2004, 10:01 AM

BronxBriar

6th May 2004, 10:26 AM

What's with this perpetual virginity of Mary stuff? My gosh, what's the point of it all? And since when have Lutherans been talking about this?
Even my modern Catholic friends don't talk about this. It is a symbol that makes no sense to them at all. I feel like I have walked back into the 16th century. That, of course, is not to suggest that the modern world is somehow superior to the 16th century. But we talk about things differently today. If we want people in the 21st century to connect to the faith we must be able to speak the faith in a way that makes sense to them. That doesn't mean we do away with the symbols of the past or the insights of the mothers and fathers of the past.
1) Well we started talking about it since the question was first posted and you responded. I believe it's been an issue in the church for some time as well.;)

2) The fact that your 'modern' catholic friends don't talk about it may say more about them than the symbol itself.

3) Of course it's importance as an 'issue' may be questioned, it does contain theological implications that I for one find intriguing.

And I will leave it at that.

Peace!
Henry

Victrixa

6th May 2004, 10:31 AM

Thank you for your offer A. believer! I will certainly accept your offer! Now I don't have time to post as I have to go but will do so this evening. See you in the non-denominational forum later!

God bless you!

Caroline

Victrixa

6th May 2004, 10:33 AM

Thanks to everyone for the responses. It is very interesting!

Love in Christ,

Caroline :)

Victrixa

10th May 2004, 11:09 AM

Hi my Lutheran friends! I have more questions!!!! ;)

Do you, as Lutherans, really believe that you have the apostolic faith and traditions? If so, can you explain to me how is that? Thank you!

(I think Lutheranism teaches that the Lutheran Church has come back to the origins of the Church - both in doctrinal points and practices?)

According to Lutheran teaching, was the first Church Catholic or Orthodox (or something else - like Anabaptist or Vaudois, etc.? )

Thanks again for taking the time to answer my multiple questions!

Seeking,

Caroline :)

JVAC

10th May 2004, 02:04 PM

Do you, as Lutherans, really believe that you have the apostolic faith and traditions? Yes.

If so, can you explain to me how is that?

The only tradition that really matters to us Lutherans is that the Gospel is rightly taught and the Sacraments rightly administered. Therefore, we believe that we are the true apostolic faith that maintains the apostolic tradition.

If you were looking for something along the lines of the historic episcopate, well, the ELCA practices that, because of our CCM with the Episcopal Church.

(I think Lutheranism teaches that the Lutheran Church has come back to the origins of the Church - both in doctrinal points and practices?)
Lutheranism teaches that they have corrected the abuses of the Roman Bishop, and thereby have restored the church to it's originality.

According to Lutheran teaching, was the first Church Catholic or Orthodox (or something else - like Anabaptist or Vaudois, etc.? )
The Early Church was catholic and orthodox ;) . No Lutheran would ever say that they were anabaptists, for no where in act was there a commission to rebaptize, and no Saintly Church Father ever promoted that practice.

The Early Church was catholic, orthodox, and above all Christian. Yet it lost is catholicity, with the schism of 1054. We still believe in the catholic faith, but not the Catholic Church.

Thanks again for taking the time to answer my multiple questions!Always a pleasure Victrixa,

-James