Wesleyan Forum Name [Archive]

Plan 9

5th May 2004, 10:25 AM

Here are some thoughts that might be used to help formulate a title

Items, phrases, or places important to Wesley (in my opinion):

Holiness
Sanctification
"Strangely Warmed"
Aldersgate
"The World is my Parish"
Class Meetings

Alternatively, one could look at hymn titles written by his brother Charles.

Let's do this together!

A Mighty Fortress is my all-time favorite hymn, but I can see how that might not strike the right note? lol

I'll have to look through my hymnal, because I love that idea, WJ! List some more hymns, please?

The church I grew up in is called King's Way, and I always liked that name lots. It's not specifically Wesleyan, though.

The Upper Room? (I dunno about that one...)

Celticflower

5th May 2004, 10:59 AM

"I'll Praise My Maker while I've Breath" --Alt by J. Wesley
"Praise the Lord Who Reigns Above" C. Wesley
Before Jehovah' Awful Throne" Alt by J. Wesley
"Captain of Israel's Host" C. W.
"Thou Hidden Source of Calm Repose" C.W.
"Depth of Mercy" C.W.
"Blow Ye the Trumpet Blow" C.W.
"Come Sinners to the Gospel Feast" C.W.
"Come, Let Us who in Christ Believe" C.W.
"Sinners Turn: Why Will You Die" C.W.
"How Can A Sinner Know" C.W.
"How Happpy Every Child of Grace" C.W.
"Jesus, the Sinner's Friend to Thee" C.W.
"Arise My Soul Arise"C.W.
"Jesus Lover of my Soul" C.W. (one of my favs)

That is up to page 125 of the old hymnal

WesleyJohn

5th May 2004, 03:16 PM

Celticflower

5th May 2004, 04:59 PM

Don't forget:

"Behold the Savior of Mankind" by Samuel Wesley

Also by Charles-
"Tis Finished! the Messiah Dies"
"Oh Love Divine, What Hast thou Done"
"O How Happy Are They"
"Talk With Us Lord"
"O Come and Dwell in Me"
"I Want a Principle Within"
"God of All Power and Truth and Grace"
"Servant of God, Well Done"
"Come, Let Us Join Our Friends Above"
" Jesus, Lord We Look to Thee"
"Jesus, We Look to Thee"
"Author Of Life Divine"

I would look up more, but the cat just curled up on my hymnal!

Celtie

bigsierra

5th May 2004, 05:22 PM

Highway of Holiness from Wesley sermon
Christian Perfection
Holiness of Heart
Perfected in Love
Sanctifying Grace
Holy Club - Wesley's group of friends at Oxford, approved by the Bishop

Arwen Undomiel

5th May 2004, 07:28 PM

How about "Source of Calm Repose", then?

TCapp

5th May 2004, 10:08 PM

Plan 9

6th May 2004, 02:59 AM

Yeah...especially since that was written by Martin Luther! :D
WJ

Do we we have any brain surgeons here? If so, may I have a discount for being a fellow Wesleyan, please? *bangs head on table*

Plan 9

6th May 2004, 03:05 AM

Holiness Forevermore
Come Ye Apart
[Walking in the] The King's Highway
[Breathe on me] Breath of God
At Calvary
Amazing Love
Higher Ground
[How] Firm [a] Foundation
Joy Unspeakable
Something Beautiful
Such Love
The Haven of Rest
The Solid Rock
We Will Glorify

I've made such a fool of myself all day today, that the prospect of reaching Higher Ground sounds attractive right now.
However, the one I think I would love of these, even on those rare days when I don't, is The King's Highway!!

Thanks, TCapp! :)

WesleyJohn

6th May 2004, 07:09 AM

Origen

6th May 2004, 12:08 PM

So far I like these themes: grace, perfection, strangely warmed; as in something like:

Grace Place
On to Perfection
Strangely Warmed

Origen

6th May 2004, 12:10 PM

And I suppose "Open Hearts, Open Minds, Open Doors" may too closely be identified with the UMC, but as a name/slogan it would be great.

Celticflower

6th May 2004, 12:19 PM

Maybe we should just go back to the beginning (in a sense) and call the forum "Aldersgate". Any Wesleyan worth the name should identify with it, but it doesn't single out any one branch.

Origen

6th May 2004, 05:30 PM

Maybe we should just go back to the beginning (in a sense) and call the forum "Aldersgate". Any Wesleyan worth the name should identify with it, but it doesn't single out any one branch.

In a sense I agree that "Aldersgate" would speak to "any Wesleyan worth the name," but that's also the shortcoming of using "Aldersgate" or "Wesleyan": it's preaching to the choir. What, if anything, do those words mean to the non-Methodist or unchurched guest to CF?

It'd be cool if we could find something that both grabs the newcomer/visitor and conveys a strong Wesleyan theme (in the way that "One Bread, One Body" does for the Catholic board and "The Ancient Way" does for the Orthodox board).

Islander

7th May 2004, 03:20 AM

Origen

7th May 2004, 08:39 AM

Holy Club and Aldersgate are my two favorite but I also like On to Perfection. I was also thinking about the Holy Spirit Filled Forum. On the other hand I want to warn it may be a bad idea to be too creative with the name and it may be better to have Wesley or Methodist in the title or both because otherwise many Methodists won't realize there is a Methodist forum here.

That's a good point; again the Catholic and Orthodox boards may provide a model for addressing this concern. They use both a creative title and a more explicit name:

One Bread, One Body - Catholic Discussions
The Ancient Way: Orthodox Christianity

Following that model, we might create something like:

"Strangely Warmed" - The Wesleyan/Methodist Experience
On to Perfection: The Methodist/Wesleyan Journey

wvmtnkid

7th May 2004, 09:43 AM

I like the idea of identifying with Aldersgate. I sorta liked "Grace Place" too! :D One of my favorite Wesley hymns is "And Can it Be" be that doesn't lend itself to a good forum name, huh?

How about a play on words with Aldersgate-such as The AldersGate (or something like that)-where everone is invited to come in and join us? It is akin to "open hearts, open minds, open doors" (can't get the Methodist outta me!). Too corny?

Celticflower

7th May 2004, 10:14 AM

It must just be the day, but when I saw "Strangely Warmed" just now, I had a mental image flash of missionaries in a cannibal's stewpot!
Yes, I know the reference, but again, would non-Wesleyans? Naming this forum is tougher than naming my kids was!

Celtie
(who is more than a little silly today)

TCapp

7th May 2004, 05:49 PM

Perhaps we can start narrowing this down. I jotted down everyone's suggestion (or at least I hope I managed to get most of them).
Perhaps we can each pick up to five of our faves? All sound good unto itself, but not all of them lend themselves to forum names... at least that's my thinking. If we narrow it down enough, maybe we can put up a poll. :)

(And no, I'm not making some ironclad rule here... just floating a suggestion. Other thoughts welcomed.) :)

First, here is The List:

A Charge to Keep I have

Aldersgate

All Priase to Our Redeeming Lord

Amazing Love

And Can It Be?

Arise, My Soul, Arise

At Calvary

Author Of Life Divine

Before Jehovah' Awful Throne

Blow Ye the Trumpet Blow

Breath of God

Captain of Israel's Host

Celebrate Immanuel's Name

Charity

Children of Grace

Christ the Lord is Risen Today

Christian Perfection

Class Meetings

Come Sinners to the Gospel Feast

Come Ye Apart

Come, Let Us Join Our Friends Above

Come, Let Us who in Christ Believe

Come, Thou Long-expected Jesus

Depth of Mercy

God of All Power and Truth and Grace

Grace Place

Hark! The Herald Angels Sing

Higher Ground

Highway of Holiness

Holiness

Holiness Forevermore

Holiness of Heart

Holy Club

How Can A Sinner Know

How Happpy Every Child of Grace

I Know that My Redeemer Lives

I Want a Principle Within

I'll Praise My Maker while I've Breath

Jesus Lover of my Soul

Jesus, Lord We Look to Thee

Jesus, Lover of My Soul

Jesus, My Strength, My Hope

Jesus, Thine All-victorious Love

Jesus, We Look to Thee

Jesus, the Sinner's Friend to Thee

Joy Unspeakable

Lo, He Comes with Clouds Descending

Love Divine, All Loves Excelling

O Come and Dwell in Me

O For a Thousand Tongues to Sing

O How Happy Are They

O for a Heart to Praise My God

Oh Love Divine, What Hast thou Done

On to Perfection

Perfected in Love

Praise

Praise the Lord Who Reigns Above

Rejoice, the Lord is King

Sanctification

Sanctifying Grace

Servant of God, Well Done

Sinners Turn: Why Will You Die

Soldiers of Christ, Arise

Something Beautiful

Source of Calm Repose

Strangely Warmed

Such Love

Talk With Us Lord

The Haven of Rest

The King's Highway

The Solid Rock

The Upper Room

The World is my Parish

This Is Thy Will, I Know

Thou Hidden Source of Calm Repose

Tis Finished! the Messiah Dies

Unconditional Love

We Will Glorify

Ye Ransomed Sinners, Hear

Ye Servants of God

Here are my picks. (I'll put up a tally on my spreadsheet).

Grace Place
Highway of Holiness
The King's Highway
The Solid Rock
The Upper Room

I've never heard the word Aldersgate before. :sorry:

Plan 9

7th May 2004, 06:13 PM

"The King's Highway" is my first pick of those, and I also like "The Upper Room". :)

Thanks, TCapp! That was a lot of work! :)

ChiRho

7th May 2004, 06:56 PM

Origen

7th May 2004, 07:13 PM

"Strangely Warmed" - The Wesleyan/Methodist Experience

HaHaHaHa!!!!! I cannot stop laughing... ^_^ ^_^

What does this mean? :D

Certainly this is a joke, but if it is serious, then it has my vote!!

No joke -- it's a Methodist-thing. Eye-catching, though, isn't it.

Wesley had a spiritual (conversion/born-again?) experience while listening to the reading of Luther's preface to the Epistle to the Romans, containing an explanation of faith and the doctrine of justification by faith. "I felt," he wrote, "my heart strangely warmed. I felt I did trust in Christ, Christ alone, for salvation; and an assurance was given me that he had taken away my sins."

Origen

7th May 2004, 07:20 PM

Perhaps we can start narrowing this down. ... Perhaps we can each pick up to five of our faves?

Grace Place: A Methodist/Wesleyan Forum
"Strangely Warmed" - The Wesleyan/Methodist Experience
On to Perfection: The Methodist/Wesleyan Journey
The Upper Room: A Wesleyan/Methodist Forum

ChiRho

7th May 2004, 08:24 PM

How 'bout "Piety and Sobriety"

I think, doctrinally you would agree!?

Pax Christi,

ChiRho

TCapp

7th May 2004, 10:08 PM

bump :)

Arwen Undomiel

7th May 2004, 11:08 PM

How 'bout "Piety and Sobriety"

I think, doctrinally you would agree!?

Pax Christi,

ChiRho

Piety and Sobriety: A Wesleyan 12-Step Journey
Piety and Sobriety: A Methodist Call For Prohibition

Sorry, I couldn't resist!

Seriously, I like The Upper Room, On To Perfection and Source of Calm Repose (to remind us to remain civilized in debate).

BAChristian

8th May 2004, 02:12 AM

I really like, Source of Calm Repose - Weselyn/Methodist/Nazarene Discussion

or to shorten it, what is the majority? Methodists? And then just in the description, include the other denom's, like Nazarene..

Islander

8th May 2004, 04:19 AM

My favorite is On to Perfection but Upper Room, Holy Club, Aldersgate and A Charge to Keep I Have are good. I would also add circuit riders.

overnight

8th May 2004, 06:26 AM

Identy is onething but there is way toooooo much emphasis on Methodist there are far too many denominations under the Weslian banner. I personally like the song Called unto Holiness (old but still very true). I also liked some of the suggestions as long as Methodist is dropped out (I am a member of the UMC):eek:

WesleyJohn

8th May 2004, 08:53 AM

WesleyJohn

8th May 2004, 08:58 AM

TCapp

8th May 2004, 02:11 PM

Of the 81 in The List (wow, so many great ideas!), 13 unique ones have thus far been mentioned as faves.

Sunday 16th sounds good, WesleyJohn.

This is kind of exciting. ^_^ :clap:

ChristianTeen

8th May 2004, 08:23 PM

Now that I know the meaning of it, I like "Strangely warmed"

overnight

9th May 2004, 12:29 AM

While I am not adamantly opposed to including the word "Methodist" in the title, I would prefer to keep it to the broad umbrella of Wesleyanism, and list Methodist and Nazarene in the description category. I'm sure that the largest branch of of the Wesleyan tradition is the UMC, but that doesn't equate the two. We are already equating the Wesleyan Tradition with the UMC through the icon system (which does grate against me somewhat), and I really don't want to see the same in the forum name.

The description, I would suggest something like:
A forum for Methodists, Wesleyans, Nazarenes, and other Christians who consider themselves part of the Wesleyan Holiness tradition.

WJI don't understand what you mean when you say we are equating the wesleyan tradition with the UMC with the icon system. In actuallity (comming from a Naz background) most Wesleyan tradition churches have a symbol that is so similar that it is hard to tell them apart.

WesleyJohn

9th May 2004, 07:22 AM

ChiRho

10th May 2004, 08:11 AM

*ChiRho stops by briefly and chants*

"Strangely Warmed!!...Strangely Warmed!!...Strangely Warmed!!" :clap:

*ChiRho exits, not wanting to offend*

This is one of the best name considerations yet!!
(Ive checked all the threads)

Pax Christi,

ChiRho

Celticflower

10th May 2004, 10:34 AM

What I mean is that we have used a denominational specific icon (The UMC Icon) to represent all of "Wesleyanism." I don't have an alternative to offer, and I didn't at the time the icons were created. I voiced my concern and let it go.

There are two reasons I don't wear a "Wesleyan" icon:

1) I really do prefer wearing the "Christian" icon. To me, it is far more important that I be identified as a Christian than anything else. I found the mere "Christian" icon the best choice.

2) Since I'm not a member of the UMC, I don't really want to wear their denominational logo as my icon. I think it's confusing to other members who know what that icon is, but may not realize that the UMC is part of a larger tradition known as Methodism or Wesleyanism.

The problem we're faced with is this: Both Methodism and Wesleyanism are appropriate names for the tradition/movement that God began through the work of the Holy Spirit in John Wesley's life. However, both of those names are also names of denominations today. Regardless of what we choose, we run the risk of causing people to feel excluded by our title.

I feel that "Wesleyan" is a more inclusive title. However, I'm sure that some of my Methodist brothers and sisters feel that "Methodist" is more inclusive. (Note: I'm not even bringing Nazarene to the table, for that's not inclusive at all...it is a term that really has little to do with Wesley and more to do with Jesus the Nazarene).

Does that make more sense?

Peace,

WJ

I totally understand and respect where you are coming from. As far as which is the more inclusive title, as a Methodist I personally would say Wesleyan is.
I was going to use just a "Christian" icon, but around here "Christian" is a non-denominational denomination (if that makes any sense) and lately I have been having a bit of trouble with some points of doctrine in the "Christian" church we have been attending. So I went with the Methodist--it is more of who I am. If you were to ask me face to face I would tell you I am a Christian and Methodist is my chosen way of expressing, studying and growing in my walk of faith.
As to the forum name--I'm still quite stumped. Maybe "Wondering Souls" from the hymn "Where Shall My Wondering Soul Begin"?

Celtie

TCapp

10th May 2004, 11:58 AM

I have added Wondering Souls to the list. :)

alaurie

10th May 2004, 10:59 PM

I like both The Upper Room and Grace Place. Grace Place is my favorite.

De Colores,
:) Allye

overnight

11th May 2004, 02:29 AM

Maybe this thread should be redone as a poll (Using the most given reponses {strangly warmed, holy club....) and colse it in a month or so and use the highest voted on name because it seems (much like Christians and denominational differences) we are not going to come to a concensus.

WesleyJohn

11th May 2004, 10:24 AM

rnmomof7

11th May 2004, 11:17 AM

Can a non Wesleyan make a suggestion?

I love Wesley , he was a true fisher of men .

He said "The world is my parish"

I think "Wesley's parish " might be good.

(pss did ya note I am not shy?

God's best blessings to my Methodist and Wesleyan brothers and sisters

WesleyJohn

11th May 2004, 01:18 PM

TCapp

11th May 2004, 05:15 PM

I like it! I like it! Add it to the list, and cast a vote from me!

"Wesley's Parish"

Pretty cool...
Done. :)

Plan 9

11th May 2004, 05:47 PM

WJ and TCapp, you're both working very hard for us, and doing a fine job. Thank you! :)
There are so many good choices that it's going to be hard to decide which to vote for. :scratch:

alaurie

11th May 2004, 08:55 PM

I like both The Upper Room and Grace Place. Grace Place is my favorite.

Okay... been thinking about this some more. Grace Place stands alone for me. No denominational names will be mentioned but I grew up in a behaviorally legalistic Protestant church, switched to a theologically legalistic one in college and finally 12 or so years ago found the Methodists and GRACE :clap:

overnight

11th May 2004, 10:52 PM

:wave: @ overnight!

Hey there! Great idea. In fact, that's the plan. On Sunday, TCapp is going to give me a list of the front runners, and then we're going to make a poll and leave it open for 10 days.

Nobody's aiming for complete consensus, but we are looking for some names that we could all get behind. So, right now, we're asking members to tell us what their favorites are, TCapp is tallying, so we can know which ones the front-runners are. Make sense?

Grace and Peace,

WJI understand now. Thanks sorry about confusion. Good job on doing this though and I am sure a great name will be cosen. :D

wvmtnkid

12th May 2004, 09:16 AM

Oh! I like Welsey's Parish! :clap: I also like Grace Place.

Celticflower

12th May 2004, 10:05 AM

I like "Wesley's Parish" and "Wondering Souls" (mainly becasuse I tend to be one). Can you split my vote? :pink:

Celtie

WesleyJohn

12th May 2004, 10:11 AM

Origen

12th May 2004, 11:24 AM

I'd like to make two suggestions regarding the voting and selection of the forum name:

1. Hold two rounds of votes. The first round is likely to have many selections to choose from, so I'd suggest taking the top three from that first "thinning" round and using those in a run-off election. We're in no rush for time, and this ensures that many more people feel vested in the final selection (otherwise we could pick one winner out of twenty that recieved only 6% of the votes).

2. Post frequently between now and Sunday (when the first round of voting starts) the current list of nominees. After the poll starts is too late to make changes or corrections.

Polycarp1

12th May 2004, 11:41 AM

Speaking as a cradle Methodist who found a home in Anglicanism (following John Wesley's instructions, I might add!;), I really like "Strangely Warmed" -- but it occurred to me that you might coin something new: "The Internet is my parish" ;)

WesleyJohn

12th May 2004, 12:26 PM

TCapp

12th May 2004, 12:30 PM

I don't think we can split votes with the poll system!
Umm, actually I think I have seen a couple polls posted on CF where you could choose multiple options. :scratch: Don't know if that way would be more conducive, or less conducive.

Post frequently between now and Sunday (when the first round of voting starts) the current list of nominees. After the poll starts is too late to make changes or corrections.
Sounds good. Here is the list again, in all its glory. ;) There are, so far, 83 mentioned.

A Charge to Keep I have
Aldersgate
All Priase to Our Redeeming Lord
Amazing Love
And Can It Be?
Arise, My Soul, Arise
At Calvary
Author Of Life Divine
Before Jehovah's Awful Throne
Blow Ye the Trumpet Blow
Breath of God
Captain of Israel's Host
Celebrate Immanuel's Name
Charity
Children of Grace
Christ the Lord is Risen Today
Christian Perfection
Class Meetings
Come Sinners to the Gospel Feast
Come Ye Apart
Come, Let Us Join Our Friends Above
Come, Let Us who in Christ Believe
Come, Thou Long-expected Jesus
Depth of Mercy
God of All Power and Truth and Grace
Grace Place
Hark! The Herald Angels Sing
Higher Ground
Highway of Holiness
Holiness
Holiness Forevermore
Holiness of Heart
Holy Club
How Can A Sinner Know
How Happpy Every Child of Grace
I Know that My Redeemer Lives
I Want a Principle Within
I'll Praise My Maker while I've Breath
Jesus Lover of my Soul
Jesus, Lord We Look to Thee
Jesus, Lover of My Soul
Jesus, My Strength, My Hope
Jesus, Thine All-victorious Love
Jesus, We Look to Thee
Jesus, the Sinner's Friend to Thee
Joy Unspeakable
Lo, He Comes with Clouds Descending
Love Divine, All Loves Excelling
O Come and Dwell in Me
O For a Thousand Tongues to Sing
O How Happy Are They
O for a Heart to Praise My God
Oh Love Divine, What Hast thou Done
On to Perfection
Perfected in Love
Piety and sobriety?
Praise
Praise the Lord Who Reigns Above
Rejoice, the Lord is King
Sanctification
Sanctifying Grace
Servant of God, Well Done
Sinners Turn: Why Will You Die
Soldiers of Christ, Arise
Something Beautiful
Source of Calm Repose
Strangely Warmed
Such Love
Talk With Us Lord
The Haven of Rest
The King's Highway
The Solid Rock
The Upper Room
The World is my Parish
This Is Thy Will, I Know
Thou Hidden Source of Calm Repose
Tis Finished! the Messiah Dies
Unconditional Love
We Will Glorify
Wesley's parish
Wondering Souls
Ye Ransomed Sinners, Hear
Ye Servants of God

WesleyJohn

12th May 2004, 08:33 PM

TCapp

12th May 2004, 09:27 PM

Okie dokie. :)

Here are the ones that have one or more votes.

The Upper Room 7
Grace Place 5
Strangely Warmed 4
Wesley's parish 4
On to Perfection 3
The King's Highway 3
Highway of Holiness 2
Source of Calm Repose 2
Wondering Souls 2
A Charge to Keep I have 1
Aldersgate 1
Children of Grace 1
Holy Club 1
The Solid Rock 1

WesleyJohn

12th May 2004, 09:32 PM

Plan 9

12th May 2004, 11:45 PM

Sounds like a plan! Let's do it! :)

elanor

13th May 2004, 02:11 AM

I really like Wesley's Parish. :)

overnight

13th May 2004, 02:41 AM

Wesley's parish really came out at me too.

Islander

13th May 2004, 04:35 AM

Umm, actually I think I have seen a couple polls posted on CF where you could choose multiple options. :scratch: Don't know if that way would be more conducive, or less conducive.
It would take longer to do, but may be two polls. The first one could allow people to vote for as many as they want. Then take the most popular ones on that poll and have a poll in which you can only vote for one. Just a thought.

WesleyJohn

13th May 2004, 08:25 AM

bigsierra

13th May 2004, 11:03 PM

"God in Scripture commands me, according to my power, to instruct the ignorant, reform the wicked, confirm the virtuous. Man forbids me to do this in anohter's parish; that is, in effect, not to do it at all, seeing I have now no parish; of my own, nor probably ever shall. Whom, then, shall I hear, God or man? ...I look upon all the world as my parish; thus far I mean that, in whatever part of it I am, I judge it meet, right, and my bounden duty to declare unto all that are willing to hear the glad tidings of salvation. This is the work which I know God has called me to and sure I am that his blessing attends it." John Wesley the Methodist, The Methodist Bookd Concern, 1903

I like the Wesley's Parish idea, or The world is our Parish

Christian2

14th May 2004, 02:48 AM

Was Wesley a calvinist? If so there is a problem.

overnight

14th May 2004, 03:17 AM

Was Wesley a calvinist? If so there is a problem.The best answer would be no. Here is the history as best as I can remember. Calvin posted his problems with the catholic church there was a seperation hince the start of protantism. Calvin was not intending to start a new church just fix the problems with the current one. Well a few kings (who wanted to get power out of the Popes hand) took ahold of this and decided to adopt differnet churches. One such king was Henery VIII. Becasue the pope would not let him get a divorce Henery created the Church of England. In most every way catholic in tradition. Wesley felt the Church of England was not doing what the original meaning of chiristianity ment (feeding poor, helping sick, spreading gospel) so he and a group of friends (holy club called by them Meathodists called by others) got together for bible study, prayer, and "Chirstian witness" (helping sick, feeding poor, etc...).

I hope it did not generalize too much and this helps anything I missed or might have wrong please correct it you won't hurt my feelings. :)

bigsierra

14th May 2004, 10:21 AM

I'm not sure this is totally accurate, but it's a rough timeline and denominational flow.

Feel free to correct where it is wrong. I bunched up the groups breaking off of Methodism, which I know isn't the correct timing.

Islander

16th May 2004, 03:16 AM

Was Wesley a calvinist? If so there is a problem.
No, Wesley opposed Calvinist teachings.

The best answer would be no. Here is the history as best as I can remember. Calvin posted his problems with the catholic church there was a seperation hince the start of protantism. Calvin was not intending to start a new church just fix the problems with the current one.
You're thinking of Martin Luther not John Calvin but otherwise your history although an extremely condensed, simplified version is accurate.