PDA

View Full Version : Proverbs 30:4


ChrisB
5th May 2004, 07:51 AM
Proverbs 30
4 Who has gone up to heaven and come down?
Who has gathered up the wind in the hollow of his hands?
Who has wrapped up the waters in his cloak?
Who has established all the ends of the earth?
What is his name, and the name of his son?
Tell me if you know!

Am I misreading this or is this clearly a Messianic reference to Jesus being the Son of God?

Wisdom's Child
5th May 2004, 02:55 PM
Why yes it is....

Are you surprised?

Here's another "Son of God" reference from the Old Testament, It's not "Messianic" but clearly indicates that the Son was known in OT times ...

Daniel 3:24-25
Then Nebuchadnezzar the king was astonied, and rose up in haste, and spake, and said unto his counsellors, Did not we cast three men bound into the midst of the fire? They answered and said unto the king, True, O king.
He answered and said, Lo, I see four men loose, walking in the midst of the fire, and they have no hurt; and the form of the fourth is like the Son of God.

ChrisB
5th May 2004, 06:20 PM
Why yes it is....

Are you surprised?

[/B].

I must admit to being a little surprised to see it so plainly in the OT but then Proverbs is one of those books which (to my shame) I've not been as assiduous in reading as some others. :blush:

Which version are you using for the Daniel quote? My NIV has it rendered as "like a son of the gods"

Wisdom's Child
5th May 2004, 08:59 PM
It comes from The King James Version

Let's do a Word Study
and the form of the fourth is like the Son of God.

Do you know how to use a Strong's Concordance?
Here's how it breaks down...


< the form >
rev {rave} Strong's {07299}
Definitions:
(Aramaic) from a root corresponding to 7200; aspect:--form.

>>ra'ah {raw-aw'} Strong's {07200}
Definitions:
a primitive root; to see, literally or figuratively (in numerous applications, direct and implied, transitive, intransitive and causative):--advise self, appear, approve, behold, X certainly, consider, discern, (make to) enjoy, have
experience, gaze, take heed, X indeed, X joyfully, lo, look (on, one another, one on another, one upon another, out, up, upon), mark, meet, X be near, perceive, present, provide, regard, (have) respect, (fore-, cause to, let) see(-r, -m, one another), shew (self), X sight of others, (e-)spy, stare, X
surely, X think, view, visions.

< of the fourth >
rbiy`ay {reb-ee-ah'-ee} Strong's {07244}
Definitions:
(Aramaic) corresponding to 7243 -- fourth.

>>rbiy`iy {reb-ee-ee'} Strong's {07243}
Definitions:
or rbiiy {reb-ee-ee'}; from 7251; fourth; also (fractionally) a fourth:--foursquare, fourth (part).

< is like >
dmah {dem-aw'} Strong's {01821}
Definitions:
(Aramaic) corresponding to 1819; to resemble:--be like.

>>damah {daw-maw'} Strong's {01819}
Definitions:
a primitive root; to compare; by implication, to resemble, liken, consider:--compare, devise, (be) like(-n), mean, think, use similitudes.

< the Son >
bar {bar} Strong's {01247}
Definitions:
(Aramaic) corresponding to 1121; a son, grandson, etc.:--X old, son.

>>ben {bane} Strong's {01121}
Definitions:
from 1129; a son (as a builder of the family name), in the widest sense (of literal and figurative relationship, including grandson, subject, nation, quality or condition,
etc., (like 1, 251, etc.)):--+ afflicted, age, (Ahoh-) (Ammon-) (Hachmon-) (Lev-)ite, (anoint-)ed one, appointed to, (+) arrow, (Assyr-) (Babylon-) (Egypt-) (Grec-)ian, one born, bough, branch, breed, + (young) bullock, + (young) calf, X came up in, child, colt, X common, X corn, daughter, X of first, + firstborn, foal, + very fruitful, + postage, X in, + kid, + lamb, (+) man, meet, + mighty, + nephew, old, (+) people, + rebel, + robber, X servant born, X soldier, son, +
spark, + steward, + stranger, X surely, them of, + tumultuous one, + valiant(-est), whelp, worthy, young (one), youth.

< of God >
'elahh {el-aw'} Strong's {0426}
Definitions:
(Aramaic) corresponding to 433; God:--God, god.
see HEBREW for 0433

>>'elowahh {el-o'-ah; rarely (shortened) >eloahh {el-o'-ah} Strong's {0433}
Definitions:
probably prolonged (emphat.) from 410; a deity or the Deity:--God, god. See 430.
see HEBREW for 0410
see HEBREW for 0430

>>>'el {ale} Strong's {0410}
Definitions:
shortened from 352; strength; as adjective, mighty;
especially the Almighty (but used also of any deity):--God (god), X goodly, X great, idol, might(-y one), power, strong. Compare names in "-el."
see HEBREW for 0352

>>>'elohiym {el-o-heem'} Strong's {0430}
Definitions:
plural of 433; gods in the ordinary sense; but specifically used (in the plural thus, especially with the article) of the
supreme God; occasionally applied by way of deference to magistrates; and sometimes as a superlative:--angels, X
exceeding, God (gods)(-dess, -ly), X (very) great, judges, X mighty.



Rev rbiy`ay dmah bar 'elahh

"Bar 'Elahh" can be verified as "The Son" of 'Elahh by comparing other verses that use "Bar"...

Ezra 5:1
Then the prophets, Haggai the prophet, and Zechariah the son of Iddo, prophesied unto the Jews that were in Judah and Jerusalem in the name of the God of Israel, even unto them.

"Bar Iddo" = The Son of Iddo

And thou his son, O Belshazzar, hast not humbled thine heart, though thou knewest all this;

"Bar" = His Son

Daniel 7:13
I saw in the night visions, and, behold, one like the Son of man came with the clouds of heaven, and came to the Ancient of days, and they brought him near before him.

"Bar 'enash" = The Son of Man

Contrast with the use of "Ben"

Genesis 4:25
And Adam knew his wife again; and she bare a son, and called his name Seth: For God, said she, hath appointed me another seed instead of Abel, whom Cain slew.

Genesis 6:4
There were giants in the earth in those days; and also after that, when the sons of God came in unto the daughters of men...

"Ben 'elohiym" = The Sons of God (Plural)
"Bar 'Elahh" = The Son of God (Singular)


Word usage demonstrates that "Bar" refers to a particular Son, while "Ben" refers to many Sons or a son.

ChrisB
6th May 2004, 08:27 AM
Thanks for this Wisdom's Child, I appreciate the effort you've put into this. It is an important distinction between the two versions and one that I'll be exploring further. One doubt I have is that these words were spoken by Nebuchadnezzar - a non-Jew. Would he have been referring to the Hebrew God or a pagan deity?