Tongues

[TomUK]

Since going to university i have come across many Christians who would call themselves charismatic and believe that they can speak in tongues and prophesise etc. If i'm being honest, i'm quite sceptical of them all. I don't deny that people could speak in tongues many many years ago, but what people are doing in some churchs seems to be wrong and anti-biblical. I was wondering if you guys knew what the anglican very of these things was. Cheers.

[PaladinValer]

From what I know, the Anglican Church teaches that we all have gifts from the Holy Spirit. Speaking in tongues is just one of many gifts listed (and not listed!) in the Holy Scriptures.

But placing too much emphasis on the gift means that we are ignoring the Giver. All gifts come from the Holy Spirit, and that means we should use them appropriately, in a Christian manner. For speaking in tongues, there should always be an interpreter so that everyone can join in. Biblical speaking in tonges isn't supposed to be a wild, chaotic experience but one of Divine Grace, Order, and Spirituality.

Another reason is that, IMO, people get so caught up into the act (IMO, forgetting the Giver in the midst of the gift), that they soon develop a subconscious to speak in tongues whenever in worship. IMO, this isn't natural but more like an self-induced trance not initiated by the Holy Spirit but by a person's own will, when instead we should always be trying to serve His Will. And yes, there are plenty of frauds who make money off of this gift that they've perverted into a mockery of God's Holy Grace, IMO.

So is there such thing as speaking in tongues? Absolutely! But it should be done as Scripture, Tradition, Reason, and God's Will orders, not for our own order or will. As such, I'm personally just as weary as you are.

[Bonhoffer]

If you are not from a charasmatic background then I can understand your concern and you are right to question things.

However there is nothing really to be afraid of. :)

As a charasmatic with such gifts I am certain that it is safe and from God. If it wasn't then why would the Holy Spirit give them to me? The same Spirit which told me that 'Jesus Is Alive' is the same with which I get my gifts from. If such gifts are from Satan then that will mean that I have'nt found God in the first place and thus are not saved. But I am certain that I do know God through Jesus.

I admit that the Gifts can be misused just as the Bible can be used wrongly.
These Gifts should never be of more importance to a Christian than God Himself, and when used it should only be in order to Glorify and serve God; not simply to give ourselves a high or show off to others. I see no reason why God would not allow the modern church to have such Gifts and I havent yet seen a strong argument from the Bible that shows how the Gifts were only for the early Church. Tongue Speaking for example is a way of praying, and yet few Christians doubt that prayer still works.

I started Speaking in Tongues before I even knew what Speaking in Tongues was. It just happened naturally whilst praying. I was really close at the time and full of the Spirit.

Our Church is very charasmatic, but this (and our Biblical base) is our strength when it comes to evangelism. Not that we speak in tongues around unbeleivers or anything. Its just that we let God guide us with the gospel. It is not our job to convert people, its Gods. But he can use us spirit filled beleivers to do this. The Bible does tell people to use Signs and Wonders and I know that miracles still take place today.

If you are still apprehensive about this then its probably not for you. Not being charasmatic doesnt mean that you are any less a Christian or that God isnt going to use you. Just as God doesnt call everyone for missionary work, he doesnt call everyone to use these Gifts.

I'm not sure about the Anglican position on this subject; however I would guess that even if they accept the Gifts as real and valid, it isnt part of the Anglican tradition in the same way that pentacostal churches don't tend to like dressing in different coloured robes for different times of year.

[bonniea84]

On Tuesday nights at my local church, we do have prayer and praise services. A part of the worship service is to pray for healing for others. Most of the people who are regular attendees of this particular group do speak in tongues, myself included. Someone in an earlier post wrote that it's important to recognize the Giver of the gift, and you're right. That needs to be done more often than it is.

Growing up in the Episcopal church, most people I knew weren't a part of the "Renewal" movement, but now more people are familiar with these gifts, and that they do indeed exist. The first time I was exposed to speaking in tongues was at an Episcopal Young Churchman (EYC) convention in the church I attend right now. Some Episcopal churches don't place much emphasis on scripture, or the gifts of the Holy Spirit, and it's fortunate that this is now being addressed.

Bonnie Ainsworth
Laramie, WY

[PaladinValer]

If you are not from a charasmatic background then I can understand your concern and you are right to question things.

Are you an Anglican/Episcopalian? Most of us Anglicans/Episcopalians are not charismatics in the way Pentecostals and charismatic Christians are because we don't agree with their heavy emphasis on it. We also reject that type of charisms because it isn't what the Early Church did, thus its against Holy Tradition and our interpretation of the Scripture which is handed down through Apostolic Succession, Holy Tradition, and Reason.

However there is nothing really to be afraid of.

I must respectfully disagree. We believe we are members of One Holy Catholic and Apostolic Church. We hold to the formula of Scripture, Tradition, and Reason. All three of them are intertwined in an unbreakable web that has been a part of the historic and orthodox Church since its advent at Pentecost. The Early Church historically wasn't a charismatic Church, though they exhibited the gifts of the Holy Spirit. As such, the AC as well as other liturgical/creedal Churches that may or may have the Historic Episcopate, be they Orthodox (E or O), Anglicans/Episcopalians, Lutherans, Catholics, Methodists, Presbyterians, etc, do not exhibit charismatic tendancies like those of Pentecostal and charismatic denominations.

As a charasmatic with such gifts I am certain that it is safe and from God. If it wasn't then why would the Holy Spirit give them to me? The same Spirit which told me that 'Jesus Is Alive' is the same with which I get my gifts from. If such gifts are from Satan then that will mean that I have'nt found God in the first place and thus are not saved. But I am certain that I do know God through Jesus.

The problem for us is not the gifts but the emphasis on the gifts. With all due respect, I feel, like others here probably, that Pentecostals and charismatic Christians place more emphasis on the gifts than on the Giver. From what I've seen, read, and told, such services are wild and chaotic. This, IMO, is not Scriptural. Speaking in tongues isn't s gift to be used on every occasion but only when applicable, only when guided, and only with the greatest of reverence, care, and discipline. All things, including the gifts of the Holy Spirit, are to be used for the Glory of God.

I admit that the Gifts can be misused just as the Bible can be used wrongly. These Gifts should never be of more importance to a Christian than God Himself, and when used it should only be in order to Glorify and serve God; not simply to give ourselves a high or show off to others. I see no reason why God would not allow the modern church to have such Gifts and I havent yet seen a strong argument from the Bible that shows how the Gifts were only for the early Church. Tongue Speaking for example is a way of praying, and yet few Christians doubt that prayer still works.

I can assure you that speaking in tongues is fully recognized by the AC, as well as all other gifts. However, we do not emphasize these gifts more than anything else in our lives, for all things were made by the Will of God. They are simply another part of God's Creation, and aren't necessarily more important. This is why people do not always speak in tongues in our Church; because there isn't such an emphasis, people are allowed to have the Holy Spirit influence them instead of strong emotions and subconscious urges.

**Cut for brevity** (sp?)

I'm not sure about the Anglican position on this subject; however I would guess that even if they accept the Gifts as real and valid, it isnt part of the Anglican tradition in the same way that pentacostal churches don't tend to like dressing in different coloured robes for different times of year.

The AC fully accepts the gifts of the Holy Spirit as a useful tool in the same way as the historic/traditional Church always has. I myself have gifts of the Holy Spirit, but I discipline myself with it so that I use them carefully reverently, and only when the Holy Spirit moves me. As for "dressing in different colored robes," this is an old historic tradition that has been in the Church since basically ever to my knowledge.

[The Lord is my banner]

In many Anglican churches the services are tightly "reined in", using formal ritual and liturgy to control the congregation. Worship can be very regimented: the "hymn sandwich" idea - one short hymn, a sermon, another hymn, then a prayer, then another hymn, often with verses cut to keep us on schedule etc.,etc. All this can make our communal worship a very stilted, broken-up experience.

Maybe the Holy Spirit does not give these disputed gifts here because He is grieved by our lack of trust and openess to Him.

Add to that the general ignoring or even disdain of teaching on charismatic gifts, and we don't have much opportunity to develop faith for it or courage to use it.

I realise some churches go too far the other way, descending into chaotic, anything-goes type services, but that doesn't mean we shouldn't desire the Holy Spirit to move more freely among us.

There must be many churches who manage to get it about right most of the time. Some of them are even Anglican!

Blessings, Susana

[bonniea84]

In many Anglican churches the services are tightly "reined in", using formal ritual and liturgy to control the congregation. Worship can be very regimented: the "hymn sandwich" idea - one short hymn, a sermon, another hymn, then a prayer, then another hymn, often with verses cut to keep us on schedule etc.,etc. All this can make our communal worship a very stilted, broken-up experience.

Maybe the Holy Spirit does not give these disputed gifts here because He is grieved by our lack of trust and openess to Him.

There must be many churches who manage to get it about right most of the time. Some of them are even Anglican!
Susana, that could be the case. Except for the occasional baptisms we have, we usually get out of the service about the same time.

I don't think it would hurt for us to try some new things. What our church is doing is to let the people themselves come up and pray their own prayers of the people once every Sunday. I know it was done at one of our services, and people from that one service really were filled by it. This month, I believe it will be done at both Sunday services.

We're lucky enough to be able to do it in my church. We have a prayer team available at one service for people should they choose to receive prayers after they've taken communion. Sometimes I've prayed with people long after the service has been over. On Tuesday evenings, we have Prayer and Praise services also. The neat thing about it is that we have a great turnout every week. The minimal people I recall us having at one point was 9 people.

God Bless you all. :angel:

[The Lord is my banner]

Bonniea84,

that sounds wonderful. I know some Anglican churches are more open to the Spirit than my own tends to be. I think a lot depends on what the leadership really feel about it. Don't you think teaching and encouragement in this are essential?

God bless, Susana

[Bartimaeus]

Susana,
I happen to attend the same church as bonniea84, and I can tell you this much: the balance they strike is a wonderful one, and they are growingg and changing in the Spirit all the time. :)

So, if you're ever in Wyoming...:)

[didaskalos]

Since going to university i have come across many Christians who would call themselves charismatic and believe that they can speak in tongues and prophesise etc. If i'm being honest, i'm quite sceptical of them all. I don't deny that people could speak in tongues many many years ago, but what people are doing in some churchs seems to be wrong and anti-biblical. I was wondering if you guys knew what the anglican very of these things was. Cheers.I was born, raised, baptized, and confirmed in Episcopalian Chruch. Actually the Episcopal Church had a pretty thriving Charismatic move going back in the 70s. I recall speaking in tongues in a Episcopalian Church.
Of course there is always that rule that says all services must be said in a known tongue.... but I suspect that was aimed at the practice of having service in Latin....

[PaladinValer]

In many Anglican churches the services are tightly "reined in", using formal ritual and liturgy to control the congregation. Worship can be very regimented: the "hymn sandwich" idea - one short hymn, a sermon, another hymn, then a prayer, then another hymn, often with verses cut to keep us on schedule etc.,etc. All this can make our communal worship a very stilted, broken-up experience.

I must disagree. This form of liturgy, if I'm not mistaken, is very ancient and traditional. It does not control the congregation one bit; if a person were to suddenly break out in tongues or exhibit some other amazing gift of the Spirit, then don't you think that it would be done regardless of any "control?"

Maybe the Holy Spirit does not give these disputed gifts here because He is grieved by our lack of trust and openess to Him.

Again, I must completely disagree. I go to a church where everyone has a very deep commitment to our Lord and Savior, yet no one ever speaks in tongues. It has absolutely nothing to do with "control," or "lack of trust;" it has to do that we do not feel automatically compelled everytime we go to church to speak out in tongues or exhibit other instantaneous gifts. The AC (and those denominations that have an Anglican heritage except for the Charismatic Episcopal Church) isn't a Pentecostal or charismatic Christian Church but a liturgical/High Protestant/catholic Church. Just because we don't seem to speak in tongues as often as others doesn't mean we aren't as trusting of God or as open and I personally resent your comment.

Add to that the general ignoring or even disdain of teaching on charismatic gifts, and we don't have much opportunity to develop faith for it or courage to use it.

Again, I doubt anyone ignores or disdains charisms and the Church most certainly doesn't discourage but actively encourages those who have gifts to develop and use them when appropriate. I personally have been asked many times to join my church's choir because I have a gift of song and voice. There are more gifts out there than just the gift of tongues and the such.

I realise some churches go too far the other way, descending into chaotic, anything-goes type services, but that doesn't mean we shouldn't desire the Holy Spirit to move more freely among us.

The Holy Spirit works in ways that we cannot comprehend completely and the AC (and I'm certain Anglican-heritage denominations too) teach us constantly to pray for the Holy Spirit to aid us; we do so in our Liturgy of the Word every Sunday at church twice.

[bonniea84]

Susana,

The church I attend is St. Matthew's Cathedral in Laramie, Wyoming. The Dean herself is charismatic, and is in support of various services. In the last seven or eight years, both of our Deans have even open to liturgical dance in the church, as well as the allowance of different styles of worship. We're definitely growing in the Spirit. Bartimeus had quite the experience last night ... that's all I'll say. :clap:

Bonniea84,

that sounds wonderful. I know some Anglican churches are more open to the Spirit than my own tends to be. I think a lot depends on what the leadership really feel about it. Don't you think teaching and encouragement in this are essential?

God bless, Susana

[Bartimaeus]

Susana,

The church I attend is St. Matthew's Cathedral in Laramie, Wyoming. The Dean herself is charismatic, and is in support of various services. In the last seven or eight years, both of our Deans have even open to liturgical dance in the church, as well as the allowance of different styles of worship. We're definitely growing in the Spirit. Bartimeus had quite the experience last night ... that's all I'll say. :clap:
Yes, indeed. And, unless anyone asks me (publicly or privately), like Forest Gump, that's all I have to say about that. ;)

:hug:

[Polycarp1]

The Anglican churches don't reject the idea of charismatic gifts, but see them in the Pauline context -- the Holy Spirit gives many gifts and talents for the purpose of building up the Body of Christ. Skill at managing a church's endowment and a sense of being called to use one's talents for that purpose, to build up the funds which can enhance the church's ministry, is as much a gift of the Spirit as tongues or prophecy, and sometimes more so, since often the Pentecostal-style gifts lead to a sort of private you-and-me-God piety.

But the Episcopal Renewal Ministries has been supporting growth in the Spirit for decades now (there's a link to their web presence on the Episcopal Church website, which I'll locate and post here when I get a chance). A bishop I know personally, the Rt. Rev. Dan Herzog of Albany (NY), and one I've attended services at the parish of before he became a bishop, the Rt. Rev. John Howe of Central Florida, have both been strongly active in ERM.

And yes, a service done according to traditional liturgy can seem very dry and perfunctory -- to me, it depends a great deal on what one is willing to invest in it and with what sense of significance the leaders (priest and any others participating, such as lectors) invest the words they say. One of the finest lectors I've ever known is the lady who is married to our Habitat for Humanity Executive Director (who is part of our choir, and our cantor when a leader-response sort of singing is called for, as in some settings of the psalms) -- she has studied dramatic reading, and any lesson she reads, particularly a narrative, is invested with a great sense of participation. I will never forget the reading she did of the passage where Moses commissioned the elders, where she gave the line "And some men came to Moses and told him, 'Eldad and Medad are prophesying in the camp'," and delivered the interior quote in the sort of singsongy voice of a little child being a tattletale. The whole congregation burst into laughter -- but the point the writer sought to make was indelibly brought home to us by that reading. Or contemplate how to read the passage: "Mine are the cattle of a thousand hills; If I were hungry, I would not tell you." (Ps 50:10-12, paralleled somewhere in Isaiah).

Our retired priest, on the rare occasions he celebrates, has the same skill for making the familiar language of the Eucharistic Prayer come alive, phrase by phrase, redolent with meaning that was always there but is newly brought home by his delivery, as well.

[Bartimaeus]

The Anglican churches don't reject the idea of charismatic gifts, but see them in the Pauline context -- the Holy Spirit gives many gifts and talents for the purpose of building up the Body of Christ. Skill at managing a church's endowment and a sense of being called to use one's talents for that purpose, to build up the funds which can enhance the church's ministry, is as much a gift of the Spirit as tongues or prophecy, and sometimes more so, since often the Pentecostal-style gifts lead to a sort of private you-and-me-God piety.

But the Episcopal Renewal Ministries has been supporting growth in the Spirit for decades now (there's a link to their web presence on the Episcopal Church website, which I'll locate and post here when I get a chance). A bishop I know personally, the Rt. Rev. Dan Herzog of Albany (NY), and one I've attended services at the parish of before he became a bishop, the Rt. Rev. John Howe of Central Florida, have both been strongly active in ERM.

And yes, a service done according to traditional liturgy can seem very dry and perfunctory -- to me, it depends a great deal on what one is willing to invest in it and with what sense of significance the leaders (priest and any others participating, such as lectors) invest the words they say. One of the finest lectors I've ever known is the lady who is married to our Habitat for Humanity Executive Director (who is part of our choir, and our cantor when a leader-response sort of singing is called for, as in some settings of the psalms) -- she has studied dramatic reading, and any lesson she reads, particularly a narrative, is invested with a great sense of participation. I will never forget the reading she did of the passage where Moses commissioned the elders, where she gave the line "And some men came to Moses and told him, 'Eldad and Medad are prophesying in the camp'," and delivered the interior quote in the sort of singsongy voice of a little child being a tattletale. The whole congregation burst into laughter -- but the point the writer sought to make was indelibly brought home to us by that reading. Or contemplate how to read the passage: "Mine are the cattle of a thousand hills; If I were hungry, I would not tell you." (Ps 50:10-12, paralleled somewhere in Isaiah).

Our retired priest, on the rare occasions he celebrates, has the same skill for making the familiar language of the Eucharistic Prayer come alive, phrase by phrase, redolent with meaning that was always there but is newly brought home by his delivery, as well.
How funny! :clap:

I can almost hear that delivery of that line about Eldad and Medad. I bet that was classic. :)