ELCA vs. Missouri Synod - Major Differences?

[Proud Papist]

I have two Lutheran Churches in my area. One belongs to the Evangelical Lutheran Church in America and the other belongs to the Missouri Synod. I'm curious, do they essentially believe the same thing? Are their differences just a conservative/liberal split in their thoughts on ecclesiology, discipline or other theological matters? Are Lutherans bothered by this division?

Warm regards to my fellow Christians.
-Douglas

[ChiRho]

ELCA

Q. What are the main differences between the Missouri Synod and the Evangelical Lutheran Church in America (ELCA)?

A. The three main areas of difference between the LCMS and the ELCA are the following:

1. The doctrine and authority of Scripture. The LCMS believes that the Bible is without error in all that it says. The ELCA avoids making such statements, holding that Scripture is not necessarily always accurate on such matters as history and science. Differences between the LCMS and the ELCA on the authority of Scripture also help to explain why the ELCA ordains women to the pastoral office, while the LCMS does not, and why the LCMS unequivocally rejects homosexual behavior as contrary to God's will, while the ELCA has yet to take an official stand on this issue.

2. Subscription to the Lutheran confessions. The LCMS binds itself to all the doctrinal content of the Lutheran confessional writings of the 16th century. The ELCA binds itself only to the central teachings of the confessions and not to their entire doctrinal content.

3. The level of agreement necessary to join together in one church body. While the LCMS believes that the Bible requires agreement in all that the Bible teaches, the ELCA holds that disagreement in some matters of doctrine, such as the mode of Christ's presence in Holy Communion, do not prohibit church fellowship.

[ChiRho]

Theology of the ELCA

Q. What has The Lutheran Church--Missouri Synod (LCMS) stated officially about its differences with the theological position of the Evangelical Lutheran Church in America (ELCA)?

A. During its 1998 convention, the LCMS adopted a resolution that provides a helpful summary of some of the key differences between our two church bodies, particularly as these differences have to do with ecumenical decision and relations. Here is that resolution:

To Express Deep Regret and Profound Disagreement with ELCA Actions RESOLUTION 3-08A Adopted in Convention by The Lutheran Church--Missouri Synod, July 1998

Preamble

In 1997 the Evangelical Lutheran Church in America (ELCA) adopted A Formula of Agreement which formally declared full communion with the Presbyterian Church (USA), the Reformed Church in America, and the United Church of Christ based on what is referred to as "a fundamental doctrinal consensus" (A Formula of Agreement, p. 19).

Although this document acknowledges that "it has not been possible to reconcile the [Lutheran and Reformed] Confessional formulations from the sixteenth century" concerning the presence of Christ in the Lord's Supper, it contends that "these enduring differences" can be regarded "as acceptable diversities" and should therefore not be regarded as "church-dividing, but are complementary" (p. 20). The Lutheran Confessions, however, reject the Reformed position on the presence of Christ in the Sacrament (FC Ep. VII, 21-42; FC SD VII, 111-28), and they clearly affirm what the Scriptures teach, namely: "We believe, teach, and confess that in the Holy Supper the body and blood of Christ are truly and essentially present and are truly distributed and received with the bread and wine. We believe, teach, and confess that the words of the testament of Christ are to be understood in no other way than in their literal sense, and not as though the bread symbolized the absent body and the wine the absent blood of Christ, but that because of the sacramental union they are truly the body and blood of Christ" (FC Ep VII, 6-7).

The ELCA in 1997 also formally accepted the Joint Declaration on the Doctrine of Justification. The purpose of this statement is "to show that on the basis of their dialogue the subscribing Lutheran churches and the Roman Catholic Church are now able to articulate a common understanding of our justification by God's grace through faith in Christ" (p. 2). While recognizing that this common understanding "does not cover all that either church teaches about justification," this statement declares that "the remaining differences in its explication are no longer the occasion for doctrinal condemnation" (p. 2). However, these "differences in ... explication" as articulated in this statement itself have to do with such critically important issues as the following:

The centrality of the doctrine of justification in its relationship to all other teachings of Scripture (para. 18)
The Roman Catholic view "that persons 'cooperate' in preparing for and accepting justification by consenting to God's justifying action" (para. 20)
The relationship between the Lutheran understanding that "the sinner is granted righteousness before God in Christ through the declaration of forgiveness" and the Roman Catholic emphasis on "the renewal of the interior person through the reception of grace imparted as a gift to the believer" (para. 23-24)
The precise role of faith in justification; i.e., the significance of the difference in the Lutheran understanding that "God justifies sinners in faith alone (sola fide)" and the Roman Catholic understanding which only "sees faith as fundamental in justification" (para. 26-27)
The compatibility of the Lutheran understanding of "the Christian as a being 'at the same time righteous and sinner' " and the Roman Catholic view that the inclination toward sin in the justified Christian is not really "sin in the authentic sense" (para. 30). It is clear that Roman Catholics and Lutherans have not yet resolved substantive points of disagreement over the doctrine of justification.Whereas, The Evangelical Lutheran Church in America's actions--i.e., the declaration of full communion with three Reformed church bodies while recognizing continuing disagreements between them regarding the understanding of the bodily presence of Christ in the Sacrament of the Altar; and also its adoption of the Joint Declaration on the Doctrine of Justification which claims a common understanding between Lutherans and Roman Catholics on the sinner's justification by God's grace through faith in Christ in spite of continuing lack of agreement between them on critically important aspects of the doctrine of justification--have significant implications for all Lutherans and other Christians in the United States and around the world; and

Whereas, The Lutheran Church--Missouri Synod desires to remain faithful to its commitment to Holy Scripture and the Lutheran Confessions as stated in Article II of its Constitution, even while striving to resolve differences in doctrine with other church bodies; therefore be it

Resolved, That in faithfulness to God's Word and the Lutheran Confessions, and motivated by our love and concern for the people and pastors of the ELCA, we express our deep regret and profound disagreement with these actions taken by the ELCA; and be it further

Resolved, That we encourage all members of the LCMS to commit themselves to engage in theological discussions with the members of the ELCA; and be it further

Resolved, That the LCMS support its President as he continues to work together with the Presiding Bishop of the ELCA in arranging for discussions of these issues between representatives of our two church bodies; and be it further

Resolved, That these discussions address such theological issues as the doctrine of justification, the Lord's Supper, the nature of Lutheran identity, and the appropriate relationships with churches of other theological traditions in today's confusing and changing ecclesiastical landscape; and be it finally

Resolved, That the CTCR be asked to prepare an evaluation of the ELCA/Reformed A Formula of Agreement and the Lutheran/Roman Catholic Joint Declaration on the Doctrine of Justification for use in discussing these issues throughout the Synod.

[ChiRho]

Communing at non-LCMS Church

Q. Is it wrong for a member of an LCMS congregation to receive Holy Communion at an ELCA church? Is it wrong for an ELCA member to receive Holy Communion at an LCMS church?

A. The LCMS practices "close communion," which is summarized as follows by the Synod's Commission on Theology and Church Relations: In keeping with the principle that the celebration and reception of the Lord's Supper is a confession of the unity of faith, while at the same time recognizing that there will be instances when sensitive pastoral care needs to be exercised, the Synod has established an official practice requiring "that pastors and congregations of The Lutheran Church--Missouri Synod, except in situations of emergency and in special cases of pastoral care, commune individuals of only those synods which are now in fellowship with us." By following this practice whereby only those individuals who are members of the Synod or of a church body with which the Synod is in altar and pulpit fellowship are ordinarily communed, pastors and congregations preserve the integrity of their witness to the gospel of Christ as it is revealed in the Scriptures and confessed in the Lutheran confessional writings.

The Synod has not attempted to define precisely what constitutes "special cases of pastoral care," but has entrusted to its pastors and congregations the responsibility to make judgments in individual cases about the propriety of communing non-LCMS Christians.

With regard to LCMS members communing at non-LCMS altars, the CTCR says the following in its report on the "Theology and Practice of the Lord's Supper":

"In accordance with the confessional nature of participation in the Lord's supper, and in agreement with Lutheranism's historic position, it is inappropriate to attend the Lord's Supper at non-Lutheran altars. Since participation in Holy Communion, Scripturally and confessionally understood, entails agreement in the Gospel and all its articles, it would not be appropriate to attend the Lord's supper in a church with which such agreement is not shared."

[JVAC]

Are Lutherans bothered by this division?
I am bothered as much by this split as I am with the splits between us and the Catholics, Orthodox, Anglicans, Moravians, WELS, etc. Who isn't bothered by a split in the body??

I'm curious, do they essentially believe the same thing? Are their differences just a conservative/liberal split in their thoughts on ecclesiology, discipline or other theological matters?
Mostly we are in full agreement, except for the closed communion vs ecumenicalism and the Woman pastor thing. We all confess the same things for the most part.

The only thing I don't like is that the LCMS isn't that friendly to the ELCA, and by this I will cite an example. Here in my town, we have over eight ELCA congregations and two or three LCMS congregations. Now, the ELCA supports the 'Lutheran Campus Ministries' here in Fresno. Now, rather than the LCMS helping to claim a greatly seccularized and lost population, they start thier own group, (a lot smaller because of their resources). This really ticks me off, instead of combining our resources, knowledge and God given talents, to win people to Christ, we seperate ourselves over almost nothing.


:: breathe, inhale, exhale, ::

-James

[ChiRho]

This really ticks me off, instead of combining our resources, knowledge and God given talents, to win people to Christ, we seperate ourselves over almost nothing.


:: breathe, inhale, exhale, ::


Not intending for your head to pop off! But our differences are not "almost nothing." We have real differences. You are my Christian brother, but our differences are more than mere hair splitting.

Pax Christi,

ChiRho

[Willy]

I'll go back to the original question. Of course, Lutherans are upset by the divisions that exist within our own tradition. The differences between the ELCA and the LCMS are major. We are living in very different worlds or may I say centuries? Sadly, the LCMS has reacted to the developments of modernity by crawling back further into the past and into a rigidity that hasn't always characterized them. I personally believe that some of their theological developments reflect characteristics of their ethnic origin (rigid German thought and approaches to life) and perhaps to some dysfunction that has existed at the top. Just my thoughts and observations, though.

[ChiRho]

I'll go back to the original question. Of course, Lutherans are upset by the divisions that exist within our own tradition. The differences between the ELCA and the LCMS are major. We are living in very different worlds or may I say centuries? Sadly, the LCMS has reacted to the developments of modernity by crawling back further into the past and into a rigidity that hasn't always characterized them. I personally believe that some of their theological developments reflect characteristics of their ethnic origin (rigid German thought and approaches to life) and perhaps to some dysfunction that has existed at the top. Just my thoughts and observations, though.

At the advice of Luthers Rose, I am going to take a break from this and respond later, so I do not post something I will regret. Willy is so fortunate.

Pax Christi,

ChiRho

[JVAC]

You are my Christian brother, but our differences are more than mere hair splitting.
Our differnces are small, The ELCA verses LCMS is a larger problem, yet if we come down this personal, we do have a lot in common doctrinally speaking.

Now, when it comes to "Lutheran Campus Ministries", a program with a evangelistic/sustaining motive, even the congregational differences can be put aside. Since when did sharing the Gospel require "puplpit and table fellowship"?

When it comes to an LCMS communing with an ELCA congregation, where is the problem, even our own confessions say, "It is lawful to be communed by an evil man". What more of an issue would it be to commune with a fellow pious congregation?






Ok, what I am really getting at is this idea of seclusion, it is not Christian and not Lutheran. We aren't called to be obstinate blocks and most certainly aren't called to be elitist (no offense to my WELS brethren ;) ). The Gospel is much to sweet for squabling. I can see that if a woman pastor is there, the problems it would make, but in certain places, schism is uncalled for. I am GREATLY upset, and do so emphasize GREATLY, that my brothers, especially those who call themselves Lutherans, would deny my fellowship. Would Christ deny His fellowship to me? Does Christ infact withhold His precious Body and Blood from our table? If he doesn't withhold His Body and Blood then why not come to our table? For not the sake of us but for the sake of Him who offered Himself for us?

It greatly pains my soul, and as I am writing I am greatly disturbed to the point of tears. The Holy Sacrament of the Altar is the most precious possesion of the Church, and I can't bare to hear Christians deny it to other Christians.

I'll read your responses but that is all I have to say on this subject for the sake of unity.

-James

[JMRE5150]

What are the differences between
the Evangelical Lutheran Church in America (ELCA)
and the Lutheran Church-Missouri Synod (LCMS)?

The differences between the Evangelical Lutheran Church in America (ELCA) and The Lutheran Church-Missouri Synod (LCMS) largely arise from historical and cultural factors, although some are theological in character.

When Lutherans came to North America, they started church bodies that reflected, to some degree, the churches that they left behind. Many maintained until the early 20th century their immigrant languages. They sought pastors from the "old country" until patterns for the education of clergy could be developed here. Eventually, seminaries and church colleges were established in many places to serve the Lutheran churches in North America and, initially, especially to prepare pastors to serve congregations.

The earliest predecessor synod of the Evangelical Lutheran Church in America was constituted on August 25, 1748, in Philadelphia. It was known as the Ministerium of Pennsylvania. The ELCA is the product of a series of mergers and represents the largest (5.2 million member) Lutheran church body in North America. The ELCA was created in 1988 by the uniting of the 2.85 million member Lutheran Church in America, 2.25 million member American Lutheran Church, and the 100,000 member Association of Evangelical Lutheran Churches. Previously, the ALC and LCA in the early 1960s came into being as a result of mergers of eight smaller ethnically based Lutheran bodies composed of German, Norwegian, Danish, Finnish, Swedish, Slovak, Dutch, and other folk.

The ELCA tends to be more involved in ecumenical endeavors than the LCMS. The ELCA, through predecessor church bodies, is a founding member of the Lutheran World Federation, World Council of Churches and the National Council of the Churches of Christ in the U.S.A. The LCMS does not belong to any of these.

The LCMS sprang from German immigrant roots in the St. Louis area and has a continuous history since it was established in 1847. The LCMS is a second largest Lutheran church body in North America (2.7 million). It identifies itself as a church with an emphasis on biblical doctrine and faithful adherence to the historic Lutheran confessions. Insistence by some LCMS leaders on a literalist reading of all passages of Scripture led to a rupture in the mid-1970s, which in turn resulted in the formation of the Association of Evangelical Lutheran Churches, now part of the ELCA.

The pattern of Scripture interpretation generally practiced in the ELCA seeks to consider carefully the meanings of passages and their form. The time and place in which passages were written are studied to assist in interpretation. Emphasis is placed on the message of a text in the context of Scripture. As indicated in the ELCA's constitution, "This church accepts the canonical Scriptures of the Old and New Testaments as the inspired Word of God and the authoritative source and norm of its proclamation, faith, and life."

For more information on the history and current documents of the ELCA, look at other resources linked to the "Who We Are" (http://www.elca.org/who.html) section of the ELCA web site. Another resource related to this topic is the bulletin insert series "With Confidence in God's Future. (http://www.elca.org/os/inserts/)"

Prepared by the ELCA Department for Communication
For more information about the ELCA, e-mail info@elca.org (info@elca.org)

[Flipper]

Communing at non-LCMS Church

Q. Is it wrong for a member of an LCMS congregation to receive Holy Communion at an ELCA church? Is it wrong for an ELCA member to receive Holy Communion at an LCMS church?

A. The LCMS practices "close communion," which is summarized as follows by the Synod's Commission on Theology and Church Relations: In keeping with the principle that the celebration and reception of the Lord's Supper is a confession of the unity of faith, while at the same time recognizing that there will be instances when sensitive pastoral care needs to be exercised, the Synod has established an official practice requiring "that pastors and congregations of The Lutheran Church--Missouri Synod, except in situations of emergency and in special cases of pastoral care, commune individuals of only those synods which are now in fellowship with us." By following this practice whereby only those individuals who are members of the Synod or of a church body with which the Synod is in altar and pulpit fellowship are ordinarily communed, pastors and congregations preserve the integrity of their witness to the gospel of Christ as it is revealed in the Scriptures and confessed in the Lutheran confessional writings.

The Synod has not attempted to define precisely what constitutes "special cases of pastoral care," but has entrusted to its pastors and congregations the responsibility to make judgments in individual cases about the propriety of communing non-LCMS Christians.

With regard to LCMS members communing at non-LCMS altars, the CTCR says the following in its report on the "Theology and Practice of the Lord's Supper":

"In accordance with the confessional nature of participation in the Lord's supper, and in agreement with Lutheranism's historic position, it is inappropriate to attend the Lord's Supper at non-Lutheran altars. Since participation in Holy Communion, Scripturally and confessionally understood, entails agreement in the Gospel and all its articles, it would not be appropriate to attend the Lord's supper in a church with which such agreement is not shared."
My church is LCMS and we practice OPEN Communion. In our worship folder, are criteria for someone who is not LCMS to be able to practice communion, that boils down to: If you are a Christian, you may partake. We are in St. Louis, and have a pretty large membership so if Synod had a problem with it, we would have heard about it.

[Flipper]

I'll go back to the original question. Of course, Lutherans are upset by the divisions that exist within our own tradition. The differences between the ELCA and the LCMS are major. We are living in very different worlds or may I say centuries? Sadly, the LCMS has reacted to the developments of modernity by crawling back further into the past and into a rigidity that hasn't always characterized them. I personally believe that some of their theological developments reflect characteristics of their ethnic origin (rigid German thought and approaches to life) and perhaps to some dysfunction that has existed at the top. Just my thoughts and observations, though.
My observation is that once most of the old school heirarchy moves on, things might change for the better - when I say old school, I don't necessarily mean the older heirarchy, just the way of thinking. I have a young at heart pastor that has reached out to the community and to other Christian churches to work together on projects. Being that this is the only Lutheran church I've ever really known, I was very sad to find out that this isn't always the case in the LCMS.

At least know that there are a lot of LCMS Lutherans who do not see things the way that the LCMS heirarchy sees them. There are still things about the ELCA I disagree with, but there is more that can bring us together and I can't see why we (as in my denomination) can't focus on that.

[ChiRho]

I'll go back to the original question. Of course, Lutherans are upset by the divisions that exist within our own tradition. The differences between the ELCA and the LCMS are major. We are living in very different worlds or may I say centuries? Sadly, the LCMS has reacted to the developments of modernity by crawling back further into the past and into a rigidity that hasn't always characterized them. I personally believe that some of their theological developments reflect characteristics of their ethnic origin (rigid German thought and approaches to life) and perhaps to some dysfunction that has existed at the top. Just my thoughts and observations, though.

Perhaps, you could cite specifics? Just so we dont throw around unfair generalizations and opinions that are not that of the LCMS.

Pax Christi,

ChiRho

[ChiRho]

My church is LCMS and we practice OPEN Communion. In our worship folder, are criteria for someone who is not LCMS to be able to practice communion, that boils down to: If you are a Christian, you may partake. We are in St. Louis, and have a pretty large membership so if Synod had a problem with it, we would have heard about it.

Well, if your church practices such a loose open Communion, you are going against our Confessions. Silence doesnt prove anything, it never has.

Pax Christi,

ChiRho

[ChiRho]

My observation is that once most of the old school heirarchy moves on, things might change for the better - when I say old school, I don't necessarily mean the older heirarchy, just the way of thinking. I have a young at heart pastor that has reached out to the community and to other Christian churches to work together on projects. Being that this is the only Lutheran church I've ever really known, I was very sad to find out that this isn't always the case in the LCMS.

At least know that there are a lot of LCMS Lutherans who do not see things the way that the LCMS heirarchy sees them. There are still things about the ELCA I disagree with, but there is more that can bring us together and I can't see why we (as in my denomination) can't focus on that.

What are the beliefs of this "heirarchy" that you have contention with?

Pax Christi,

ChiRho

[Lexluther]

Are Lutherans bothered by this division?
Well, I certainly am. For that matter, I am bothered with all church divisions- I would like to see the Church reunited again. But see, my willingness to accept doctrinal differences for greater communion with others is apparently the thing that marks me as ELCA. I remember with continued frustration my introduction to this debate. Had never realised there was a split at all until I went off to college and attempted to attend the Missouri Synod church that was just down the hill. A member told me plainly at I was not welcome to join them... I went to a non-denominational church instead. But it does frustrate me- I'm not angry, just frustrated. I have no desire to split up the Lutheran church over minor differences. But it remains so anyway, and it seems there is little I can do about it.

[Willy]

At the advice of Luthers Rose, I am going to take a break from this and respond later, so I do not post something I will regret. Willy is so fortunate.

Pax Christi,

ChiRho
Thanks for being so kind. I can handle your disagreement, though. I must admit that what has happened to the LCMS at the higher up level is very sad. It's tragic when people deal with change by locking themselves up in a little room. But I realize that change engenders fear. But the very thing that the Gospel calls us to is faith, which in many ways is the opposite of fear. But sometimes it is just easier to live with fear.

[ChiRho]

I hardly consider standing firm on issues, for the sake of truth, is locking oneself in a little room. We should not sacrifice truth on the altar of unity. I too, have my concerns with the current President, and hopefully Preus will get elected this summer. But, I am afraid, that my concerns differ greatly from yours, but it is hard to tell, since you are being so unclear and vague with your criticisms. I would consider submitting to secular culture and modern social pressures, a sign of fear...while disallowing the worldly culture to influence the culture of the church a clear sign of bravery.

Pax Christi,

ChiRho

[Flipper]

Well, if your church practices such a loose open Communion, you are going against our Confessions. Silence doesnt prove anything, it never has.

Pax Christi,

ChiRho
It's a good thing that God didn't write the confessions, then.

[Rechtgläubig]

Sadly, the LCMS has reacted to the developments of modernity by crawling back further into the past and into a rigidity that hasn't always characterized them.
To my understanding the WELS used to be considered pretty liberal. We looked to and learned a lot from the LCMS. So I disagree that they have sudden;y gone "rigid".

Does the divisions within the Lutheran synods sadden me? Absolutely! That doesn't mean I think we should just forget our differences though? No. In some cases there are some pretty serious differences.

Flipper: If you are a Christian, you may partake...

ChiRho: Well, if your church practices such a loose open Communion, you are going against our Confessions. Silence doesnt prove anything, it never has.
Not only the Confessions, but I feel scripture as well lays out some warnings pastors who distribute the Body and Blood openly should heed.

[Music4Hym777]

Wow, I am not even going to get into the debate. But I will say here in AZ it doesn't bother people, yeah, do we sometimes joke around about it, but it doesn't really bother us.

There have been some problems with the Traditional LCMS about five miles from the ELCA church that I attend. They are having some problems with their particular church, so each time we do Membership class, there are at least a dozen LCMSers in the class joining our ELCA church!

There is also a retreat that you get to go on once from the time you are 15-20 and then another one that you get to go on once from ages 21+. This is an LCMS and ELCA retreat combined. (TIROSH and Cursillo) We have same studies together, (I think) we take communion together, we pray together and we even have doctrinal discussions together.

I really dont feel like getting into this, but this is what I am seeing from the people here in AZ. I also have heard the opposite of the ELCA church downtown that is having problems going to an LCMS church not far away from it.

In Christ United We Stand!
Monica

[Flipper]

Not only the Confessions, but I feel scripture as well lays out some warnings pastors who distribute the Body and Blood openly should heed.



Maybe I should have elaborated better... There is an entire page of statements in our worship folder for non-members to read through (if I can find one, I will share). If the non-member agrees with the statements, he/she may take communion. In a congregation of over 2000 with 3 Sunday services and an average of 500 in each service - there are just too many people for the Elders to be policing the communion lines.

[Willy]

I hardly consider standing firm on issues, for the sake of truth, is locking oneself in a little room. We should not sacrifice truth on the altar of unity. I too, have my concerns with the current President, and hopefully Preus will get elected this summer. But, I am afraid, that my concerns differ greatly from yours, but it is hard to tell, since you are being so unclear and vague with your criticisms. I would consider submitting to secular culture and modern social pressures, a sign of fear...while disallowing the worldly culture to influence the culture of the church a clear sign of bravery.

Pax Christi,

ChiRho
Herein lies many of the problems. The LCMS has led itself to belief that it posesses the "truth." When you possess the truth, it is hard to relate to others who simply don't have the truth. I believe that it is more appropriate to say that the truth possess us. Such an understanding lightens us up a whole lot. The truth is something we have that we have to give to others, if they will only think like us. No, the truth claims us and invites us into a relationship with it that involves a humble searching posture. And guess what? Others are invited into that same humble posture. The truth of the cross is found in this understanding. The only absolute truth is God, something/someone we cannot possess. If grace means anything, it points us to the bigger-than-us nature of ultimate reality. Life is so much easier when we don't have to live in such a control seeking mode.

[JMRE5150]

I am GREATLY upset, and do so emphasize GREATLY, that my brothers, especially those who call themselves Lutherans, would deny my fellowship. Would Christ deny His fellowship to me? Does Christ infact withhold His precious Body and Blood from our table? If he doesn't withhold His Body and Blood then why not come to our table? For not the sake of us but for the sake of Him who offered Himself for us?

It greatly pains my soul, and as I am writing I am greatly disturbed to the point of tears. The Holy Sacrament of the Altar is the most precious possesion of the Church, and I can't bare to hear Christians deny it to other Christians.

I'll read your responses but that is all I have to say on this subject for the sake of unity.

-James
Ya know...out of this whole thread, this was the most important post of all. And I'm alittle ashamed of myself, and others should be too...that a dear Christian brother wrote about his pain, only to be overlooked and bypassed.
I'm sure some folks sent James a PM or two about it, and thats wonderful...but don't miss the real issue here.

Stop debating this as if its just another coffee table discussion of differences when your own brothers and sisters are torn to tears over the pain of division.

Many of the sects of Lutherans are too busy trying to relive their hero's liberating image of disagreement to realize that they are hurting people that love them, differences or not. Sometimes I wonder if many Lutherans hold Luther as high as Jesus, as if the man was divine or something. He was a man, we follow his teachings, we don't always agree on how to do that, but we still are united under what he stood for...the common folk.

At what cost will we bash each other in the head over issues? Does either side REALLY believe if they argue long enough, they will win the agruement, and turn others to their beliefs? If you do, your naive.

Look at James...a brother in Christ...hurting because he sees us fighting over each others interpretation of doctrine. I'm sorry...arguing over doctrine DOES NOT edify Christ. I'll choose caring for brother James instead of arguing our differences. Christ was about compassion and love, not about doctrinal issues.

Just agree to disagree, and lets move on. I guess I'm just upset at the lack of humanity when we see our friends hurting over this.
I apologize emmensely if I offended any of you.

Your friend in Christ,
Robb

[ChiRho]

WILLY

Herein lies many of the problems. The LCMS has led itself to belief that it posesses the "truth."

Well, Lutheranism, from Her very Confessions, boldy makes this claim as being the church, who has continued and has been given, the true Apostolic Faith, and all those outside of complete assent with Her Confessions, are doctrinally in error! Certainly not all, that dissent, with the Lutheran Confessions are outside of the Church catholic. It is true that faith is created, given, and sustained only by Word and Sacrament, so any sinner exposed to the proclaimed Gospel may believe, but heretical doctrine tears at faith and seeks to consume the Christian. We believe that the Book of Concord is the true interpretation of Scripture...literally! To deviate from this would require sufficient Scriptural evidence, of which you, nor anyone, is providing. It just seems, that you are basically calling us mean without any real evidence of why your belief is correct and our is incorrect.

When you possess the truth, it is hard to relate to others who simply don't have the truth.

Assuming that you are not contending that interpretation of Holy Scripture is relative, you must be standing from a position that you believe to be true, or how could you ever contend that we are in error?

I believe that it is more appropriate to say that the truth possess us.

True.


Such an understanding lightens us up a whole lot.

True.

The truth is something we have that we have to give to others, if they will only think like us.

This is a misrepresentation of the LCMS.


No, the truth claims us and invites us into a relationship with it that involves a humble searching posture. And guess what? Others are invited into that same humble posture.


Again, I do not contend that all of those outside of the LCMS are lost sinners. The Righteousness of Christ covers doctrinal error.


The truth of the cross is found in this understanding. The only absolute truth is God, something/someone we cannot possess.

When have I suggested different? Saving faith is reckoned to us, not of our merit.

If grace means anything, it points us to the bigger-than-us nature of ultimate reality. Life is so much easier when we don't have to live in such a control seeking mode.

Surely you believe, that your church proclaims the truth, if not, why do you go?

If you would like to make specific claims about the LCMS that you believe to be in error, then maybe I can addrress your contentions. But, really, you have remained vague and unclear. Because I stand, and do not waver in my belief, everyone thinks I am mean. I do not like division. My wish is that you would come to the LCMS and end this division. But to sacrifice what one believes to be true, for the sake of peace or "happy feelings," goes against conscience, something I am not inclined to do.

"...since it is unsafe and wrong to go against my conscience. God help me. Amen."

-Martin Luther

Pax Christi,

ChiRho

[ChiRho]

Ya know...out of this whole thread, this was the most important post of all. And I'm alittle ashamed of myself, and others should be too...that a dear Christian brother wrote about his pain, only to be overlooked and bypassed.
I'm sure some folks sent James a PM or two about it, and thats wonderful...but don't miss the real issue here.

Stop debating this as if its just another coffee table discussion of differences when your own brothers and sisters are torn to tears over the pain of division.

Many of the sects of Lutherans are too busy trying to relive their hero's liberating image of disagreement to realize that they are hurting people that love them, differences or not. Sometimes I wonder if many Lutherans hold Luther as high as Jesus, as if the man was divine or something. He was a man, we follow his teachings, we don't always agree on how to do that, but we still are united under what he stood for...the common folk.

At what cost will we bash each other in the head over issues? Does either side REALLY believe if they argue long enough, they will win the agruement, and turn others to their beliefs? If you do, your naive.

Look at James...a brother in Christ...hurting because he sees us fighting over each others interpretation of doctrine. I'm sorry...arguing over doctrine DOES NOT edify Christ. I'll choose caring for brother James instead of arguing our differences. Christ was about compassion and love, not about doctrinal issues.

Just agree to disagree, and lets move on. I guess I'm just upset at the lack of humanity when we see our friends hurting over this.
I apologize emmensely if I offended any of you.

Your friend in Christ,
Robb


Assuming that this is intended for me, at least, in part, I will respond. I am sorry that James hurts. I do not wish him to feel pain.

But James is not being turned away from the altar at the ELCA Church. He is receiving the Body and the Blood...Communing at his church and I assume, he has confidence in what they believe. But are you suggesting that because the LCMS believes differently, that we should stop to accomodate any and all beliefs, so that we can all feel good about unity? James, most surely, is my brother in Christ, that does not mean that I must submit to ELCA's beliefs, even if it brings him pain. I am not really sure what I said that triggered such pain. Aside from posting some of our official stances regarding the differences between ELCA and the LCMS (which I would assume, ELCA also disagrees with our stance), I simply stated that our differences are not small and petty. They are real differences. This is not language to propel division, but honest clarification of what is reality. Again, I am not advocating division, but I will not sacrifice my beliefs for the sake of unity.


A Reaffirmation of The Lutheran Church—Missouri Synod's
Position on Close(d) Communion
A Statement of
The Praesidium of
The Lutheran Church—Missouri Synod
21 August 1996

We, the members of the Praesidium of The Lutheran Church-Missouri Synod, wish to express our joy in the fellowship the members of the Synod enjoy with one another in the true faith. We thank God for this blessing. We treasure the wonderful opportunities God gives our Synod to reach out to the world with the Gospel, bearing witness to the truths of God's Word, in a bold confession of our Lutheran faith. We recognize as part of this opportunity the responsibility to administer the Sacrament of the Altar in a faithful manner, being mindful of the need for careful instruction to those who desire to commune at the Lord's table. In accord with the Scriptures' and the Confessions' teaching about the Lord's Supper, and the nature and basis of church fellowship, our Synod continues to reaffirm the historic, confessional church practice of close(d) communion.

We are keenly aware that our Synod faces a critical moment in the history of the Lutheran church in America. Decisions are being contemplated by other churches to enter into eucharistic fellowship with one another, without the resolution of the long standing and critical differences that divide the Reformed and Lutheran churches. This is a time for our Synod to affirm boldly the great truths of our Lutheran confession and to offer an alternative to an increasingly pluralistic and secularized view of the Christian faith. Rather than being caught up in the times in which we live, we as a Synod are able to offer a unique and faithful Lutheran witness to those struggling with questions about truth and the meaning of what it is to be a Lutheran church in our world today. Rather than conforming to the spirit of our age, we have before us the opportunity for faithful confession and catechesis.

We recognize the pastoral responsibility the church has not merely to accept minimalistic concessions to ill-defined and un- examined confessions of the faith, but instead to lead people into the truth of the Scriptures, so that they may enjoy the fellowship of the church as it gathers at the altar to receive her Lord's body and blood in the Sacrament of the Altar.

Because of our great respect for our Synod's fellowship in the Faith, and because of the opportunities which are presenting themselves to us to be and remain a strong, confessional Lutheran church in this country, and a voice for genuine confessional Lutheranism around the world, we must express our fraternal concern with the document, "A Declaration of Eucharistic Understanding and Practice." We regret the fact that some members of our synodical family have persisted in their public advocacy of an erroneous position in regard to close(d) communion. Sadly, they have done this in spite of the fraternal, pastoral and faithful admonition of our Synod's president, and of our Synod's district presidents, who have counseled with them about this situation.

Therefore, we affirm and commend to our Synod, the pastoral application of the faithful and evangelical resolution adopted by our Synod in convention last summer reaffirming our Synod's scriptural position on close(d) communion, Resolution 3-08. We ask that all members of the Synod, both church workers and congregations, receive, respect and conform their practice to this resolution. We, as the Praesidium of The Lutheran Church- Missouri Synod, commit ourselves to its implementation among our fellowship and support our district presidents as they do the same. We recognize that it is the responsibility of the district presidents to maintain the integrity of our fellowship in our faith as they correct and reprove error in the discharge of the duties of their office. We offer our fraternal encouragement to them as they carry out their duty of doctrinal supervision in this matter.

We pray for God's continued blessing on our Synod. May He keep us ever steadfast and faithful, for the sake of our stewardship of the Gospel of our Lord Jesus Christ.

This is not a denial of faith! If you have faith in Christ, then you are my Christian brother or sister and part of the catholic Church, even though we cannot gather at the altar together.



Pax Christi,

ChiRho

[JMRE5150]

Assuming that this is intended for me, at least, in part My response to James was meant for everyone who passed up his post about his personal pain over the bickering. It was directed to everyone who didn't bother to stop making their points long enough to even notice, or care.

I am sorry that James hurts. I do not wish him to feel pain. I am thrilled you feel this way, and I'm sure you wouldn't wish anyone any pain. At least let's hope not. ;)

But are you suggesting that because the LCMS believes differently, that we should stop to accomodate any and all beliefs, so that we can all feel good about unity? We are talking about a brother in Christ here. If one is hurt or wounded, you are charged by Christ to lend your support. At least I would hope you would. Using the word "accomodate" is a bit too much, don't you think? Noone would ever ask you to accomodate or change your position of beliefs in order to care for and comfort another Christian. Your equating doctrinal differences with the simple act of compassion. Thats a stretch.

James, most surely, is my brother in Christ, that does not mean that I must submit to ELCA's beliefs, even if it brings him pain. Again, it seems like you are obsessed with the notions that ELCA want to change you. Or your LCMS. You folks don't want to partake in partnership with the ELCA. We understand that, and never try to force you to do so. Why does it appear that sooooo many other sects convince themselves there is a secret attempt to get their sect within our own ELCA group? It just seems you are always in defense of the LCMS, while sometimes that defense is needlessly unnecessary in a situation like this.

I am not really sure what I said that triggered such pain. Aside from posting some of our official stances regarding the differences between ELCA and the LCMS (which I would assume, ELCA also disagrees with our stance), I simply stated that our differences are not small and petty. They are real differences. This is not language to propel division, but honest clarification of what is reality. Again, I am not advocating division, but I will not sacrifice my beliefs for the sake of unity.
Brother, again...I don't think it was specifically aimed at you, or the LCMS division. Can't a man/woman simply feel hurt and pain over the division without having a secret motive to bring us together? I almost feel like this is implying Brother James was purposely showing his great pains so that we would all come together as one. Maybe he simply was telling us he's hurt, because after all, thats what Christians do with other Christians...share their pain. There isn't always an alterior motive.

Chi, I love ya man, you know I do. Seriously. But we are not asking ANYONE to throw away their beliefs, but rather to take a second to comfort a man in pain. Someone who is simply beaten down by the constant battlelines drawn and redrawn with endless back and forth rhetoric about who is right and wrong. It can beat any of us down. Jame simply was stating his moment of frustration and pain.

It is a wonderful thing though, that the end of your post did show that you love and wish James no pain. It truly shows your a fantastic Christian, and that you truly do care. Your a good mate to agrue with. Lets just take a minute sometimes to pick up and move the wounded souls off the battlefield before we continue to engage in combative rhetoric. ;)

[ChiRho]

I am GREATLY upset, and do so emphasize GREATLY, that my brothers, especially those who call themselves Lutherans, would deny my fellowship. Would Christ deny His fellowship to me? Does Christ infact withhold His precious Body and Blood from our table? If he doesn't withhold His Body and Blood then why not come to our table? For not the sake of us but for the sake of Him who offered Himself for us?



[QUOTE] We are talking about a brother in Christ here. If one is hurt or wounded, you are charged by Christ to lend your support. At least I would hope you would. Using the word "accomodate" is a bit too much, don't you think? Noone would ever ask you to accomodate or change your position of beliefs in order to care for and comfort another Christian. Your equating doctrinal differences with the simple act of compassion. Thats a stretch.

What was the source of pain for James? From his post, I gathered it was our belief regarding Closed Communion. Apparently, you disagree. Maybe James could clarify.

Again, it seems like you are obsessed with the notions that ELCA want to change you. Or your LCMS. You folks don't want to partake in partnership with the ELCA. We understand that, and never try to force you to do so. Why does it appear that sooooo many other sects convince themselves there is a secret attempt to get their sect within our own ELCA group? It just seems you are always in defense of the LCMS, while sometimes that defense is needlessly unnecessary in a situation like this.

From the reaction of many of the posts, I judged that many deemed us mean, or even suggested that it is an utter tragedy that we have Closed Communion. At least the posts were implying that the LCMS position was unfair or stuck in somewhere in the distant past. I encourage you to reread the posts and show me where I drew upon phantom opinions.


[QUOTE]Brother, again...I don't think it was specifically aimed at you, or the LCMS division. Can't a man/woman simply feel hurt and pain over the division without having a secret motive to bring us together? I almost feel like this is implying Brother James was purposely showing his great pains so that we would all come together as one. Maybe he simply was telling us he's hurt, because after all, thats what Christians do with other Christians...share their pain. There isn't always an alterior motive.


You are incorrect in your assessment. I did not ever believe that James had an alterior motive for his post. I believe he was clear and honest about his pain, and what the source of his pain was. My "defensive" posts were not responding to James, but to the others, who evidentally were not hurting, but offering some rather dogmatic opinions.

The original post asked for the differences between the LCMS and ELCA churches. Initially, I offered only that of official LCMS opinion, cut and pasted directly from our website. In hindsight, I should have ended with that and allowed the criticism to go unanswered. Most likely due to my lack of class, and apparently, my inability to communicate with love and compassion towards my Christian brothers and sisters, I failed. If their is anymore inquiry about the LCMS belief, I appeal to my first three posts and the material found on our website, www.lcms.org.

May the Peace of Christ be with all of you, always!

Pax Christi,

ChiRho

[JMRE5150]

I suppose its best with we both detach ourselves from this thread :(


It appears I have hijacked it, and did not wish to do so. It seems this has turned into a JMRE5150/ChiRho debate, and I'm sure neither myself or ChiRho ever intented it as such.

My apologies to all, as this was not our personal debate thread.

Me and Chi can do that in PM's if we want. :P


Chi, don't forget that I love ya bud, and meant no ill feelings toward you.

Your friend in Christ,
Robb

[Lotar]

I think one of the major differences between us is the way we approach doctrine. The ELCA sees itself as a "reforming Church" and the LCMS sees itself as a "reformed Church." Anything and everything is open to change in the ELCA, while it is not so in the LCMS, where the BOC, and Scripture interpreted by Tradition are accepted as truth.

The ELCA has been strongly influenced by pietism, while LCMS has remained orthodox and confessional.

[ChiRho]

I think one of the major differences between us is the way we approach doctrine. The ELCA sees itself as a "reforming Church" and the LCMS sees itself as a "reformed Church."Anything and everything is open to change in the ELCA, while it is not so in the LCMS, where the BOC, and Scripture interpreted by Tradition are accepted as truth.

The ELCA has been strongly influenced by pietism, while LCMS has remained orthodox and confessional.

In a few clear sentences, Lotar, has summed up the differences quite nicely!

Pax Christi,

ChiRho