question on justification

[MoNiCa4316]

I'm interested in what you all think about this...I have sort of a theological question...

I've heard some people say that when we put our faith in Christ / are baptized (please let's not get into this argument here lol)..we are spiritually transformed by the Holy Spirit...and the evidence of this is 'good fruit' in our lives. That's why good works are necessary, not because they save us but because they are the evidence. So it's like because of Christ's sacrifice, His righteousness becomes literally a part of us, and thus we are justified.

Some other people say that we are declared to be justified, but are not transformed -> this is what sanctification is for. So it's like we're sinners but God sees us as righteous because of Christ.

I've been thinking a lot about this and I decided that I hold to the first view. btw it's not saying that our righteousness saves us. It's saying that: by grace, we are literally transformed, not simply declared saved while remaining our old selves. Paul said we are "new creations".

I've gone to a non denominational church for a while and I've always believed the way I do. But then I read on a website that Protestants agree more with the second idea. Do they? I'm posting this on different denominational forums to see what you all think....which view do you and your church hold to??

Thanks :)

monica

[LilLamb219]

Lutherans believe in Objective and Subjective Justification. Objectively we are justified outside of ourselves in that Christ achieved justification at the cross for us. Subjectively, by believing and being baptized, we are justified in that it happens directly to us.

If you only look to the fruit for justification, there is no assurance at all! I mean, how much fruit will be enough before you can know you're justified?

[DaRev]

It's kind of a combination of the two. In baptism we are reborn. The "old Adam" is drowned and a "new Man" comes forth. This is totally the work of God. At the same time we are still sinners, so that we are in need of God's forgiveness. We sin daily, we repent daily, and we are forgiven daily by the same baptismal waters of our baptism. We are reborn at baptism and are declared righteous before God. Sactification is the lifelong process that begins at baptism and is completely fulfilled in heaven.

[RevCowboy]

Wow, that is quite an discussion issue.

First off, while Lutherans are kind of the original protestants, they are not actually protestants because they did want to leave the Roman Church but were booted. Actual protestants are Calvinists, Anabaptists and the like.

As to types of justification, Lutherans believe in both. From the Augsburg Confession:
Article IV: Of Justification.[ 1] Also they teach that men cannot be justified before God by their own strength, merits, or works, but are freely justified for 2] Christ's sake, through faith, when they believe that they are received into favor, and that their sins are forgiven for Christ's sake, who, by His death, has made satisfaction for our sins. 3] This faith God imputes for righteousness in His sight. Rom. 3 and 4.


The first type is Forensic Justification. Forensic meaning completely outside of oneself. This is the definition of free grace. This kind of justification cannot be shown by any sign of our own. In fact, this kind of justification proclaims that any good works we do as a sign of our justification become sinful and not good, because we are trying to do something ourselves to be saved or to show that we are saved. But it is not us who does the saving, rather God is the one who saves. Any works that some how show our justification or justify us are violation of the 1st Commandment. We are trying to be God in God's place.



Now, Lutherans also say that while we are Justified totally apart from ourselves, there is a transformative power to Justification. Some call this sanctification, but I don't think that being more Holy is at the core of the transformative aspect of justification. Rather, through God's continual justifying grace, we come to know more deeply our need for God grace, and rather than as those medieval Roman Christians believed where we start up that stairway to heaven on our own by merit, we live each day more and more clinging to the foot of the cross. In our transformation we come to see more and more our own sinfulness and need for grace. Certainly, good works are a part of transformation, but the sign of transformation is the realization that we need to cling even more to the Cross of Christ.



I hope that explains the Lutheran position. Justification, by the way, could be considered a meta-doctrine of Lutheranism, its transcends and qualifies all the rest of our doctrines. When it comes to a well defined theology of Justification, Lutherans most certainly have the corner on that market. This is most certainly true.;)

[Jim47]

Good works needs to be defined. Anything good that a "Christian" does is a good work. This includes loving your spouce, family, friends neighbors and even your enemies. If we get up and go to work and do a good days work then that too us a good work.

Good works are not limited to giving to the poor or working in a soup kitchen. Anything and everything that we do that is good and is done out of a heart of faith in our Lord is a good work.