PDA

View Full Version : The Faith has Degraded Since the Reformation


chestertonrules
9th January 2008, 10:35 PM
The beliefs of the reformers are much closer to modern catholicism than modern protestantism.

Check out Luther on the real presence of Christ in the Eucharist and the veneration of Mary:

Who, but the devil, has granted such license of wresting the words of the holy Scripture? Who ever read in the Scriptures, that my body is the same as the sign of my body? or, that is is the same as it signifies? What language in the world ever spoke so? It is only then the devil, that imposes upon us by these fanatical men. Not one of the Fathers of the Church, though so numerous, ever spoke as the Sacramentarians: not one of them ever said, It is only bread and wine; or, the body and blood of Christ is not there present.
Surely, it is not credible, nor possible, since they often speak, and repeat their sentiments, that they should never (if they thought so) not so much as once, say, or let slip these words: It is bread only; or the body of Christ is not there, especially it being of great importance, that men should not be deceived. Certainly, in so many Fathers, and in so many writings, the negative might at least be found in one of them, had they thought the body and blood of Christ were not really present: but they are all of them unanimous.”
–Luther’s Collected Works, Wittenburg Edition, no. 7 p, 391

Veneration of Mary



One should honor Mary as she herself wished and as she expressed it in the Magnificat. She praised God for his deeds. How then can we praise her? The true honor of Mary is the honor of God, the praise of God's grace . . . Mary is nothing for the sake of herself, but for the sake of Christ . . . Mary does not wish that we come to her, but through her to God. (Explanation of the Magnificat, 1521).

It is the consolation and the superabundant goodness of God, that man is able to exult in such a treasure. Mary is his true Mother .. (Sermon, Christmas, 1522)
Mary is the Mother of Jesus and the Mother of all of us even though it was Christ alone who reposed on her knees . . . If he is ours, we ought to be in his situation; there where he is, we ought also to be and all that he has ought to be ours, and his mother is also our mother. (Sermon, Christmas, 1529).

It is a sweet and pious belief that the infusion of Mary's soul was effected without original sin; so that in the very infusion of her soul she was also purified from original sin and adorned with God's gifts, receiving a pure soul infused by God; thus from the first moment she began to live she was free from all sin" (Sermon: "On the Day of the Conception of the Mother of God," 1527).
She is full of grace, proclaimed to be entirely without sin- something exceedingly great. For God's grace fills her with everything good and makes her devoid of all evil. (Personal {"Little"} Prayer Book, 1522).

". . . she is full of grace, proclaimed to be entirely without sin. . . . God's grace fills her with everything good and makes her devoid of all evil. . . . God is with her, meaning that all she did or left undone is divine and the action of God in her. Moreover, God guarded and protected her from all that might be hurtful to her."
Ref: Luther's Works, American edition, vol. 43, p. 40, ed. H. Lehmann, Fortress, 1968

". . . she is rightly called not only the mother of the man, but also the Mother of God. . . . it is certain that Mary is the Mother of the real and true God."
Ref: Sermon on John 14. 16: Luther's Works (St. Louis, ed. Jaroslav, Pelican, Concordia. vol. 24. p. 107)

"Christ our Savior was the real and natural fruit of Mary's virginal womb. . . . This was without the cooperation of a man, and she remained a virgin after that."
(REf: On the Gospel of St. John: Luther's Works, vol. 22. p. 23, ed. Jaroslav Pelican, Concordia, 1957)

"Men have crowded all her glory into a single phrase: The Mother of God. No one can say anything greater of her, though he had as many tongues as there are leaves on the trees." (From the Commentary on the Magnificat.)


Interesting quotes, in my opinion.

sacerdote
9th January 2008, 10:41 PM
The Faith has Degraded Since the Reformation


You state in your post that the "faith" has degraded since the reformation. What do you mean? Protestantism in general, some other aspect, please explain what has degraded, how it's degraded and how. I would like to hear your thoughts. Thanks.

chestertonrules
9th January 2008, 10:49 PM
You state in your post that the "faith" has degraded since the reformation. What do you mean? Protestantism in general, some other aspect, please explain what has degraded, how it's degraded and how. I would like to hear your thoughts. Thanks.
My point is that there is less faith.

At the time of Luther, probably 99% of Christian believed in the real presence of Christ's body and blood in the Eucharist.

Most Christians actually believed the Apostles Creeds' professed acknowledgement of the communion of Saints.

Clearly, most Christians were Catholic and they believed that Christ had assigned one Church to protect and preserve the truth of his revelation.

Today, there are over 20,000 denominations, each with their own pope or majesterium.

Once the Church was rebelled against, all hell broke loose.

We now have Churches who support abortion rights, gay marriage, and even gay ministers.

That was my point.

sacerdote
9th January 2008, 11:26 PM
My point is that there is less faith.

At the time of Luther, probably 99% of Christian believed in the real presence of Christ's body and blood in the Eucharist.

Most Christians actually believed the Apostles Creeds' professed acknowledgement of the communion of Saints.

Clearly, most Christians were Catholic and they believed that Christ had assigned one Church to protect and preserve the truth of his revelation.

Today, there are over 20,000 denominations, each with their own pope or majesterium.

Once the Church was rebelled against, all hell broke loose.

We now have Churches who support abortion rights, gay marriage, and even gay ministers.

That was my point.

Thank you. But of course you would feel that way about most of these because you are Catholic, which by the way I deeply respect. You believe you are the one true church. I wish I had time right now to go into these items point by point but am on duty tonight and will have to wait until later.

I will close with my protestant church is booming as is our faith, I would be nothing without it and I say, thank you Jesus.

God bless you Chesterton.

chestertonrules
10th January 2008, 12:48 AM
Thank you. But of course you would feel that way about most of these because you are Catholic, which by the way I deeply respect. You believe you are the one true church. I wish I had time right now to go into these items point by point but am on duty tonight and will have to wait until later.

I will close with my protestant church is booming as is our faith, I would be nothing without it and I say, thank you Jesus.

God bless you Chesterton.
Thanks for your thoughtful post.

I hope you can find time tomorrow to explore this more.

I am a convert to Catholicism, and therefore, a zealot!

I hope this doesn't cloud my thinking. My journey has been one of much study and prayer.

I think the Church is the only way we can be united, and I think that our unity is the desire of God.

BBAS 64
12th January 2008, 10:40 AM
This thread falls out side of the rules of this fourm...

Therefore it is closed I suggest that the rules of this fourm be read and followed by the op before starting threads here.

http://christianforums.com/t6534470-rules-and-guildelines-for-debating.html

In Him,

Bill