Political Partisanship is not Orthodox

[SpyridonOCA]

Many American Christians, for whatever reason, seem to believe that GOP stands for God's Only Party. However, an Orthodox Christian, informed by Holy Tradition, should know that no political party is God's party. We should be neither Democrats nor Republicans because we are Orthodox Christians and the Church is not a political institution.

Given that it is Satan who controls the kingdoms of this world, we should be willing to stand up against state oppression, regardless of who is in office. We shouldn't blindly follow any president out of the belief that he is specially appointed by God.

Why should you trust a man-made political ideology over the teachings of Christ? Why should you allow political ideology and party affiliation to create barriers between yourself and your fellow Christians? If we voted for political leaders based upon the content of their character and whether they are competent for public office, America would not be in such a mess.

[Brushstroke]

Many American Christians, for whatever reason, seem to believe that GOP stands for God's Only Party. However, an Orthodox Christian, informed by Holy Tradition, should know that no political party is God's party. We should be neither Democrats nor Republicans because we are Orthodox Christians and the Church is not a political institution.

Given that it is Satan who controls the kingdoms of this world, we should be willing to stand up against state oppression, regardless of who is in office. We shouldn't blindly follow any president out of the belief that he is specially appointed by God.

Why should you trust a man-made political ideology over the teachings of Christ? Why should you allow political ideology and party affiliation to create barriers between yourself and your fellow Christians? If we voted for political leaders based upon the content of their character and whether they are competent for public office, America would not be in such a mess.
Good post. Reps for you. :)

[SeraphimSarov]

"It is better to hope in the Lord than to hope in mankind. It is better to trust in the Lord than to trust in princes."

I have no faith, confidence, trust, or regard in or for politicians.

[SpyridonOCA]

"It is better to hope in the Lord than to hope in mankind. It is better to trust in the Lord than to trust in princes."

I have no faith, confidence, trust, or regard in or for politicians.

"It is the duty of a patriot to protect his country from its government." - Thomas Paine

"Government, even in its best state, is but a necessary evil; in its worst state, an intolerable one." - Thomas Paine

[SeraphimSarov]

...and I happen to find it intolerable. I vote, but I'm not sure why. I pay taxes, but I'm not sure why...

[nikostheater]

Maybe it's a culture thing.
We here everytime we complain about our politicians ans government but i have a feeling that if the political life were absent,our lives here would be very boring....and more chaotic..

[nikostheater]

Of course,the peak of the fun in Greek political life was the '80's...Greece was divided between the Green coffeeshops and Blue coffeeshops :p
(Green because that is the colour of the Pasok party and blue because that is the colour of the Nea Dimokratia party).
We have the strange political life here that our republic is a stable democracy but funny,boring,scandalus and chaotic at the same time.

[ClementofRome]

Thusly, I am registered "unaffiliated" and darn proud of it!

But I do vote and I love political mayhem! :)

[Dorothea]

I guess I'm unOrthodox then, since I am a registered Republican and vote each election because I care about my communities and country.

[kamikat]

All Political threads belong in the debate subforum.

[fuerein]

I frequently don't vote though it is primarily because I get sick of listening to politics and thus ignore most of what is going on with politics and I don't even realize a political race is going on until after the vote has already occurred. I know I'm a bad bad man for not voting. Eh, I'm never really informed anyway and I believe not voting is better than uninformed voting.

[jckstraw72]

i think we SHOULD vote bc we are informed by Holy Tradition as to what is truly beneficial for ppl -- we of all people should make our voices heard. it has nothing to do with trusting men over God. plus, St. Paul has a radically different view of government than you.

[Dorothea]

Yes, I agree, we should Jack. My class had this discussion on Orthodox voting in elections and such about a month ago. Our priest read out of the Ethics and Morals book by Dr. Stanley (and I can't remember his last name, but I believe it starts with an H) that said it's the Orthodox Christian's responsibility and duty to vote in local and its general election in order to work on the good of the communities and country, and also help in the communities.

[AxionEsti]

I vote because I am a citizen of this country, not because I'm Orthodox. These are two different things, in my opinion.

[Dorothea]

I vote because I am a citizen of this country, not because I'm Orthodox. These are two different things, in my opinion.
I kind of think they are too different or separate things as well. But I did ask about it to my priest a month or so ago, and my above post is what was said on it. :)

[SpyridonOCA]

I guess I'm unOrthodox then, since I am a registered Republican and vote each election because I care about my communities and country.

Do you vote a straight Republican ticket, regardless of who is running? Do you vote, not based upon the content of a candidate's character, but because of a black and white belief that your political ideology is the "right" one?

[SpyridonOCA]

Cling to Christ, not the political parties of this world. It is Satan who controls human government.

Luke 4:5-7
The devil led him up to a high mountain and showed him in an instant all the kingdoms of the world. And he said to him, "I will give you all their authority and power, for it has been given to me, and I can give it to anyone I wish. So if you worship me, it will all be yours.

1 John 5:19
We know that we are children of God, and that the whole world is under the control of Satan.

Ephesians 6:12
For our struggle is not against flesh and blood, but against the rulers, against the authorities, against the powers of this dark world…

Revelation 19:19
Then I saw the beast and the kings of the earth and their armies gathered together to make war against the rider on the horse and his army.

Revelation 16:14
They are spirits of demons… and they go out to the kings of the whole world, to gather them for the battle on the great day of God Almighty.

Philippians 3:20
Our citizenship is in Heaven…

[jckstraw72]

Cling to Christ, not the political parties of this world. It is Satan who controls human government.

Isaiah says the government is on Christ's shoulders. also see Romans 13.

[Orthosdoxa]

It is Satan who controls human government.

Except the ones you support, like Ron Paul and tsardom, right?

[Dorothea]

Do you vote a straight Republican ticket, regardless of who is running? Do you vote, not based upon the content of a candidate's character, but because of a black and white belief that your political ideology is the "right" one?
I do feel odd sharing how I vote with someone so young who seems to know so much more than I do on these issues, but I will just answer with, no, I do not just pull the lever for Republican because many Republicans aren't necessarily conservative these days, and I do have moderate and liberal views on a couple issues. But Most of my beliefs fall under the Republican party, thus my registering as. :)

[Dorothea]

Except the ones you support, like Ron Paul and tsardom, right?
I heard the other day on Medved's show that more racist documents by Paul were found...."secret" documents, whatever that means.

[Philothei]

Satan maybe the ruler of this world because the rulers of this world are 'worshiping' the idols... of this world but Chsit is in control in our lives if we live by Him.... Church is never defeted by Satan.... and his angels... I do think that we have a responsibility to vote as Christ said "Give to Ceasar that what belongs to Ceasar" meaning to be keeping the laws of the land and to ...pay our taxes. That defenately would mean to vote and get our representatives... who are our Govn't.....


God bless,
Philothei

[Thekla]

oh my :(

I can't remember the Parties of those I voted for in the Local elections.

I tend to vote 3rd party in Pres. elections (and don't remember the Party names, either).

Guess I'm just a "party pooper" ^_^


I don't think any candidate/official can "save" this country, of course. Wish people would stop looking for someone to 'fit' that impossible bill ...

[buzuxi02]

I frequently don't vote though it is primarily because I get sick of listening to politics and thus ignore most of what is going on with politics and I don't even realize a political race is going on until after the vote has already occurred. I know I'm a bad bad man for not voting. Eh, I'm never really informed anyway and I believe not voting is better than uninformed voting.
I think you make alot of sense. What i cant stand is when MTV starts ip with their "rock the vote". People who watch Mtv and get their political views from their and other programs such as the Howard Stern Show should not be voting.

If you have a yearning to vote thats good, if you do not thats alright too. As Christ said "My Kingdom is not of this world." I think voting can be very beneficial especially on the local level. At the same time i'm sick of hearing secular governments tell me voting is my greatest right as a human, and not voting is an embarassment, silly propaganda.

[SpyridonOCA]

I believe in having a consistent pro-life ethic, which means saying no to war, no to abortion, no to the death penalty and no to euthanasia. The same right-to-life groups who hold pro-life marches, however, uncritically support politicians who wage unprovoked war and perform execuations. These groups either fail or refuse to recognize this inconsistency.

If we are going to have a pro-life event, it should focus on the full spectrum of pro-life issues, rather than choosing one and ignoring the others. These groups might claim to not be political in nature, but what they are saying is that, if you are a Christian, you should vote Republican, and that it's perfectly acceptable for the state to kill for power and profit, while it's entirely abominable for a woman to have an abortion in any possible situation. As Orthodox Christians, I don't believe that we should associate ourselves with that kind of a worldview.

[Akathist]

i think we SHOULD vote bc we are informed by Holy Tradition as to what is truly beneficial for ppl -- we of all people should make our voices heard. it has nothing to do with trusting men over God. plus, St. Paul has a radically different view of government than you.

Yes, I agree, we should Jack. My class had this discussion on Orthodox voting in elections and such about a month ago. Our priest read out of the Ethics and Morals book by Dr. Stanley (and I can't remember his last name, but I believe it starts with an H) that said it's the Orthodox Christian's responsibility and duty to vote in local and its general election in order to work on the good of the communities and country, and also help in the communities.

I vote because I am a citizen of this country, not because I'm Orthodox. These are two different things, in my opinion.

I kind of think they are too different or separate things as well. But I did ask about it to my priest a month or so ago, and my above post is what was said on it. :)

I agree with all of the posts above. Except, I don't make a big division between being Orthodox and being a citizen. I first and formost Orthodox and when I vote it is my ethics and beliefs as an Orthodox that determine my vote.

Not voting accomplishes nothing useful. It does not change anything at all.

I am a very strong independent party member. I never vote a straight ticket and never have my entire life. My family were and many are, democrates. But I vote for who I think will do the best job... or sometimes who I think will not do the worse job.

I have different opinions about war and killing then some here. I don't think I have to agree with everyone to be Orthodox. I have to agree with the Traditions of the Church. I do not approve of any kind of abortion. But, I believe that self defense of a person or a nation is sometimes necessary, even if it means someone dies.

But it is always regretable. It is also a sin to kill. But sometimes it is a sin to not defend yourself too. It depends on the circumstances.

I guess having to face the very real possibility of being murdered more then once in my life has given me a different perspective on what stewardship of my body and others really is. Having been married to a Serbian and knowing how their Patriarch has blessed weapons and of course the military before they go to war puts things in perspective too.

I read about similar events in the history of the Church as well.

Given that, I do think there is a place for martyrdom. And there is always a place for seeking peace.

I would always prefer a peaceful solution.

[ThePosterFormerlyKnownAs]

I'm registered Republican because, well, I was an Evangelical when I registered and was all about the Bush. I don't vote straight ticket, I consider each candidate and look at the issues before voting.

I have family, though, who are yellow dog Democrats. It was kind of funny listening to them discuss the meaning of the word "is" when President Clinton was having one of his moments. I honestly believe that if you ran Charles Manson on a Democratic ticket against, Billy Graham on a Republican ticket, they'd vote for Manson. They are that Democratized and I'm not exaggerating at all. It makes me sick sometimes how they regurgitate the party line rather than thinking for themselves.

[Dorothea]

I agree with all of the posts above. Except, I don't make a big division between being Orthodox and being a citizen. I first and formost Orthodox and when I vote it is my ethics and beliefs as an Orthodox that determine my vote.

Not voting accomplishes nothing useful. It does not change anything at all.

But I vote for who I think will do the best job... or sometimes who I think will not do the worse job.

I have different opinions about war and killing then some here. I don't think I have to agree with everyone to be Orthodox. I have to agree with the Traditions of the Church. I do not approve of any kind of abortion. But, I believe that self defense of a person or a nation is sometimes necessary, even if it means someone dies.

But it is always regretable. It is also a sin to kill. But sometimes it is a sin to not defend yourself too. It depends on the circumstances.



I agree with your comments here, Xenia. The reason I usually vote republican is because more times than not, Democratic candidates are not pro-life, but pro-choice. This is one issue that I will not vote for someone if they are pro-choice.

[Akathist]

I agree with your comments here, Xenia. The reason I usually vote republican is because more times than not, Democratic candidates are not pro-life, but pro-choice. This is one issue that I will not vote for someone if they are pro-choice.

I also pay attention to candidates voting records on things like partial birth abortions.

There was something on TV a bit ago about a democratic candidate who voted against a bill at the state level that would have forced doctors to try to save a baby who was aborted but lived.

I was sick to my stomach to think that he actually thought it was ok for doctors to just let the baby die even though he or she was alive following an abortion attempt.

I only heard this on EWTN and have not taken the time yet to confirm it. But they said it was Obama who did this in Illinois.

I wasn't voting for Obama anyway as he is pro abortion. But I wonder if other people know about his voting record or if they are just being swayed by slick campaign ads and Oprah.

That brings me to the next headache. I am sick of celebrities pushing candidates on TV. First it was Oprah, and then yesterday Martha Stewart. But it is on other shows too. Hollywood is very pro the democrates. It worries me that this will sway votes for pro abortion candidates.

At the moment I don't know who I will vote for next Tuesday in the Primary vote here in Michigan. I need to devote some study time this weekend. I believe it will be Republican as I don't know of any other choice to avoid voting for pro abortion stands.

[SpyridonOCA]

I have family, though, who are yellow dog Democrats. It was kind of funny listening to them discuss the meaning of the word "is" when President Clinton was having one of his moments. I honestly believe that if you ran Charles Manson on a Democratic ticket against, Billy Graham on a Republican ticket, they'd vote for Manson. They are that Democratized and I'm not exaggerating at all. It makes me sick sometimes how they regurgitate the party line rather than thinking for themselves.

George W. Bush has been such a polarizing figure that it's not hard to imagine why a Democrat, or even an independent, would choose to vote a straight Democratic ticket. The president is always the spokesperson of his party, and Bush will likely cost the Republicans elections for years to come.

[Xpycoctomos]

Thusly, I am registered "unaffiliated" and darn proud of it!

But I do vote and I love political mayhem! :)
me too! I LOVE the presidential election season. I this news more entertaining than any other. For me, it's kind of like American Idol.

And to those who said "I don't know why I vote, but I do." my personal take is that, at the very least, it gives you the right to complain. If people tell me "I don't vote" and then complain about the president or whatever, honestly, I don't care if they complain about the president's policies. I feel like if they can't take the time to AT LEAST get an absentee ballot, then they made their choice not to have an opinion on issues like taxes, the war, abortion, etc.

Obviously such an attitude can be taken too far. Of course any person, voting or not, has a right and even a duty as member of the human race to call out injustices they see. But when it's about things like taxes... look that person CHOSE to be taxed without representation. I feel like saying , shut your trap and pay up... or vote and then complain.
lol

Xpy

[Chocolatesa]

I frequently don't vote though it is primarily because I get sick of listening to politics and thus ignore most of what is going on with politics and I don't even realize a political race is going on until after the vote has already occurred. I know I'm a bad bad man for not voting. Eh, I'm never really informed anyway and I believe not voting is better than uninformed voting.

Same here. Except I never vote and ignore everything that's going on with politics.

[Dorothea]

I also pay attention to candidates voting records on things like partial birth abortions.

There was something on TV a bit ago about a democratic candidate who voted against a bill at the state level that would have forced doctors to try to save a baby who was aborted but lived.

I was sick to my stomach to think that he actually thought it was ok for doctors to just let the baby die even though he or she was alive following an abortion attempt.

I only heard this on EWTN and have not taken the time yet to confirm it. But they said it was Obama who did this in Illinois.

I wasn't voting for Obama anyway as he is pro abortion. But I wonder if other people know about his voting record or if they are just being swayed by slick campaign ads and Oprah.

That brings me to the next headache. I am sick of celebrities pushing candidates on TV. First it was Oprah, and then yesterday Martha Stewart. But it is on other shows too. Hollywood is very pro the democrates. It worries me that this will sway votes for pro abortion candidates.

At the moment I don't know who I will vote for next Tuesday in the Primary vote here in Michigan. I need to devote some study time this weekend. I believe it will be Republican as I don't know of any other choice to avoid voting for pro abortion stands.
Yes, I heard about that story you said about Obama. I'd read it somewhere, but can't remember where...or heard it in passing on the news several days back.

As far as celebrities backing political candidates for president, it really does next to no good, according to what I've read and heard about that. The influence they have is practically none.

[ThePosterFormerlyKnownAs]

George W. Bush has been such a polarizing figure that it's not hard to imagine why a Democrat, or even an independent, would choose to vote a straight Democratic ticket. The president is always the spokesperson of his party, and Bush will likely cost the Republicans elections for years to come.

Oh, they've been YDDs for decades. Carter/Clinton could do no wrong and Reagan/Bush/Bush could do no right.

Bring up Clinton's infidelities...

"Well, that's his personal life, it doesn't have anything to do with how he runs the country."


Note: I'm not trying to bash the Democrats or put the Republicans on a pedestal. Personally, I think they're all a bunch of crooks just towing the party line. Elephants or donkeys (http://dictionary.reference.com/browse/donkeys), it makes no difference.

[SpyridonOCA]

As a member of the middle class, I'm going to support a candidate who I believe represents my class interest. That could be Obama, Huckabee, or Ron Paul. I have not decided yet. I believe that when we vote, we should consider a fuller spectrum of issues than just abortion. It's not like the Republicans have delivered on the abortion issue anyway. Neither have they done much in the past few years to uphold social and economic justice.

[rusmeister]

Why do people believe that voting (their 'voice' in government) has any significance at all, other than on a purely local level?

The main support for voting seems to be the accepted assumption that accumulating large numbers of votes can somehow make a difference (underlinging that the vote really doesn't mean anything at all).

I like the way GKC put it the best - basically that politics was men's BS and never really did represent real power, but men would convince their wives they were doing something important, like saving the world, so they had to go off to the pub to discuss these 'important matters'. The women didn't believe the BS and were always trying to drag the men home, until Emily Pankhurst came along and believed the BS and worked to get everyone else to believe it, too. They brainwash everybody in school, gravely convincing everyone of 'the importance of this civic duty'.

Large-scale national power has never rested with the people. Now maybe on your town or village level, you might be able to make a difference, when your vote is 1 or 2% of the vote. But even there, those with real power, not just a vote, can manipulate what gets tabled and voted on.


The idea of being conservative or liberal is anothe aspect of the BS, but that's another post.

[SpyridonOCA]

Why do people believe that voting (their 'voice' in government) has any significance at all, other than on a purely local level?


Would our troops have gone to war in Iraq if George W. Bush were not president? If our votes in presidential elections don't matter, that's only because certain individuals don't want our votes to be properly counted.

[Akathist]

Would our troops have gone to war in Iraq if George W. Bush were not president? If our votes in presidential elections don't matter, that's only because certain individuals don't want our votes to be properly counted.

Wow, I am nearly but as usual, not speachless.

George W. Bush stoled that electorial vote in FL. I did not vote for his opponent at the time, but after that happened it did become clear to me that my vote only mattered to me and didn't result in who became President.

I vote because I think we all should vote. And eventually, the electoral college will graduate and we can have fair elections again.

[jckstraw72]

George W. Bush stoled that electorial vote in FL.


ugh gimme a break.

[rusmeister]

Would our troops have gone to war in Iraq if George W. Bush were not president? If our votes in presidential elections don't matter, that's only because certain individuals don't want our votes to be properly counted.
Spyridon, you missed my point, which is that if what I'm saying is true, voting is a complete waste of time, and moreover gives everyone a false illusion that they 'have a voice' in determining governmental policies.

Oh, and yes, we would have invaded somebody. Dunno if it would've been Iraq. Maybe Iran. I don't know. Look at Clinton the peacemonger who had Serbia bombed. Brings to mind something I read lately about 3 stages of the life of a nation -
Subjected to these eternal tests, America does not appear by any means
as particularly fresh or untouched. She appears with all the weakness
and weariness of modern England or of any other Western power.
In her politics she has broken up exactly as England has
broken up, into a bewildering opportunism and insincerity.
In the matter of war and the national attitude towards war,
her resemblance to England is even more manifest and melancholy.
It may be said with rough accuracy that there are three stages
in the life of a strong people. First, it is a small power,
and fights small powers. Then it is a great power,
and fights great powers. Then it is a great power, and fights
small powers, but pretends that they are great powers, in order
to rekindle the ashes of its ancient emotion and vanity.
After that, the next step is to become a small power itself.
England exhibited this symptom of decadence very badly in the war
with the Transvaal; but America exhibited it worse in the war
with Spain. There was exhibited more sharply and absurdly than
anywhere else the ironic contrast between the very careless choice
of a strong line and the very careful choice of a weak enemy.
America added to all her other late Roman or Byzantine elements
the element of the Caracallan triumph, the triumph over nobody. GK Chesterton, Heretics, ch 18 (The Fallacy of a Young Nation)
(http://www.cse.dmu.ac.uk/~mward/gkc/books/heretics/ch18.html)

[Dorothea]

For crying out loud. I get very irritated (sorry, but i do), when people say Bush stole the election in 2000. Did nobody see all the Democratic tricks and fraud going on trying to prevent Bush from winning Florida? I lived in the state at the time and went up to Tallahassee to be there for the historic event. Like the time the election officials (all Dems) wanted to count the votes in private without any public access or video cameras. Come on. If it weren't for the protests of the local republican citizens there, we'd all have been duped and they would've cheated their way in. No matter how many times the dem volunteers and election officials went through those voter cards and tried to punch through the cards to make a vote for Gore, or count the "hanging" chads, they lost. I can't stand people who don't try to win fair and square, but try to cheat their way in. I was such an emotional and stressed out mess watching the weeks on end of that 2000 election coverage, I hope we never go through it again.

Bush did defend the pro-life issue. That's one stance he was staunch on and kept intact, imo.

You should've seen the fraud in Seattle, WA when we voted in our area at the time (Spokane) in 2006 election....there were around 1500 people registered in this county in Seattle, but a couple thousand over that amount just happened to vote (all Dems). Turns out around 1500 votes were from dead people. Ugh.

[SpyridonOCA]

Do you know anything about the voter irregularities that occurred in Ohio during the 2004 election?

[Nichole]

As a member of the middle class, I'm going to support a candidate who I believe represents my class interest. That could be Obama, Huckabee, or Ron Paul. I have not decided yet. I believe that when we vote, we should consider a fuller spectrum of issues than just abortion. It's not like the Republicans have delivered on the abortion issue anyway. Neither have they done much in the past few years to uphold social and economic justice.
What if neither of those 3 make it on the elections in November? Then what?

[Thekla]

just a general observation;

we shouldn't let politicians "own" Christian concerns.
No one party, or one candidate can fully express (or has fully represented) them. Instead, these "issues" suffer from selective uptake by politics, and we Christians end up divided among ourselves. Take 'em back ! ^_^

Honestly, how can I decide between the yet to be born and already born children ? They are both loved by God !

[Nichole]

Oh yay...........the Florida recount rigged votes thingy..............:clap:.........yet another thing to pish posh about. Pfttttttttttttttttttttt!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!

[rusmeister]

I realize my post is practically invisible, but I wonder if y'all'd be interested in commenting on the Chesterton quote? (esp this part: First, it is a small power,
and fights small powers. Then it is a great power,
and fights great powers. Then it is a great power, and fights
small powers, but pretends that they are great powers, in order
to rekindle the ashes of its ancient emotion and vanity.
After that, the next step is to become a small power itself.)
Hmmm? Any thoughts from the elephants or donkeys?

[Thekla]

I realize my post is practically invisible, but I wonder if y'all'd be interested in commenting on the Chesterton quote? (esp this part: )
Hmmm? Any thoughts from the elephants or donkeys?
uhm, the guy on the "outside" has great ideals til he gets on the inside ?

(not quite as above, but ..)

[Xpycoctomos]

I realize my post is practically invisible, but I wonder if y'all'd be interested in commenting on the Chesterton quote? (esp this part: )
Hmmm? Any thoughts from the elephants or donkeys?
It's interesting... vedy intedesting... :) you would be called a Communist by Fox news for publishing that... lol

PS: why are your posts invisible?

[Bushmaster78FS]

Cling to Christ, not the political parties of this world. It is Satan who controls human government.


What if Ron Paul becomes the president? Are you going to switch your views?

no political party is God's party

Oh yes, there is one, it is called, Hezbollah... :D :D :D

Oh btw, was Thomas Paine an Orthodox?